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Reduced loads in the .223. (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
Yeah, it doesn't line-up with traditional reloading logic, but the polymer coating really is necessary for proper resizing as well as extraction if used in the FiveseveN or PS90. Boomer: I deprime my 5.7 brass with a universal deprimer and then hand wash in hot, soapy water to get the dirt and carbon off. I then drain them before putting the cases in an old towel. While holding the four corners, two to a hand, I roll the cases back and forth to get the outsides mostly dry. I then spread them out so they aren't touching and allow them to sit for a few days. Once they're completely dry I use Dillon spray lubr and resize. I set up my Lee die using my PS90's cleaned chamber and turned down the die 1/8 of a turn until they easily fell from the chamber once it was tipped muzzle skywards. I've never messed with an AR in 5.7 since I'd already SBR'd my PS90, but have been intrigued with the AR57 uppers ever since they came out due to the ergonomics of the AR matched with the fun little 5.7 round. As far as subsonic loads go, I was able to get some nice 55gr Hornady FMJBT loads developed that would cycle the PS90 without popping the mag but the 40gr VMAX is so much more fun to shoot using the factory sight. Those 55s just fall off the map pretty quickly and not having any sort of holdover marks in the optic made shooting them at distance an exercise in futility. ETA: if you're the same 22_Boomer from the 7.62Tok forum you need to put some of those loads into a thread over here as well as the work you guys have been doing with the TCM and Reeds Express. Always enjoy reading about the messing around you and Tim are up to with oddball rounds. I agree with you on how to clean the brass but mine only gets dirty on the inside due to the fact that both my DI 5.7 rig with 18" barrel and the manual rig use modified AR bolts so they are locked when fired. I will say cleaning the crud out of the inside is probably the hardest part. The cleaning was the reason I made the mistake of removing the plastic coating -- so I could just throw the brass in my vibrator polisher and leave it overnight. I'm the same 22_boomer but I believe Tim is working towards a blowback setup that can be swapped out with a 9mm barrel rig. I have a DI operated 22 Reed Express with 16" barrel and I have posted some info over on Tim's site but I don't think it fits into Tim's plans. By the way, the 22 Reed Express in the DI rig will easily do 3200fps using the Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades. You are using the 40gr V-max bullets and I love them but I'm trying the 35gr V-max (NTX bullets) since they are the same size and shape as the 40gr V-max but lighter just to see how well they work. I have a question -- what powder type and weight do you use for the subsonic 40gr V-max loads? I have not really done any subsonics yet. |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
I agree with you on how to clean the brass but mine only gets dirty on the inside due to the fact that both my DI 5.7 rig with 18" barrel and the manual rig use modified AR bolts so they are locked when fired. I will say cleaning the crud out of the inside is probably the hardest part. The cleaning was the reason I made the mistake of removing the plastic coating -- so I could just throw the brass in my vibrator polisher and leave it overnight. I'm the same 22_boomer but I believe Tim is working towards a blowback setup that can be swapped out with a 9mm barrel rig. I have a DI operated 22 Reed Express with 16" barrel and I have posted some info over on Tim's site but I don't think it fits into Tim's plans. By the way, the 22 Reed Express in the DI rig will easily do 3200fps using the Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades. You are using the 40gr V-max bullets and I love them but I'm trying the 35gr V-max (NTX bullets) since they are the same size and shape as the 40gr V-max but lighter just to see how well they work. I have a question -- what powder type and weight do you use for the subsonic 40gr V-max loads? I have not really done any subsonics yet. Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
Yeah, it doesn't line-up with traditional reloading logic, but the polymer coating really is necessary for proper resizing as well as extraction if used in the FiveseveN or PS90. Boomer: I deprime my 5.7 brass with a universal deprimer and then hand wash in hot, soapy water to get the dirt and carbon off. I then drain them before putting the cases in an old towel. While holding the four corners, two to a hand, I roll the cases back and forth to get the outsides mostly dry. I then spread them out so they aren't touching and allow them to sit for a few days. Once they're completely dry I use Dillon spray lubr and resize. I set up my Lee die using my PS90's cleaned chamber and turned down the die 1/8 of a turn until they easily fell from the chamber once it was tipped muzzle skywards. I've never messed with an AR in 5.7 since I'd already SBR'd my PS90, but have been intrigued with the AR57 uppers ever since they came out due to the ergonomics of the AR matched with the fun little 5.7 round. As far as subsonic loads go, I was able to get some nice 55gr Hornady FMJBT loads developed that would cycle the PS90 without popping the mag but the 40gr VMAX is so much more fun to shoot using the factory sight. Those 55s just fall off the map pretty quickly and not having any sort of holdover marks in the optic made shooting them at distance an exercise in futility. ETA: if you're the same 22_Boomer from the 7.62Tok forum you need to put some of those loads into a thread over here as well as the work you guys have been doing with the TCM and Reeds Express. Always enjoy reading about the messing around you and Tim are up to with oddball rounds. I agree with you on how to clean the brass but mine only gets dirty on the inside due to the fact that both my DI 5.7 rig with 18" barrel and the manual rig use modified AR bolts so they are locked when fired. I will say cleaning the crud out of the inside is probably the hardest part. The cleaning was the reason I made the mistake of removing the plastic coating -- so I could just throw the brass in my vibrator polisher and leave it overnight. I'm the same 22_boomer but I believe Tim is working towards a blowback setup that can be swapped out with a 9mm barrel rig. I have a DI operated 22 Reed Express with 16" barrel and I have posted some info over on Tim's site but I don't think it fits into Tim's plans. By the way, the 22 Reed Express in the DI rig will easily do 3200fps using the Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades. You are using the 40gr V-max bullets and I love them but I'm trying the 35gr V-max (NTX bullets) since they are the same size and shape as the 40gr V-max but lighter just to see how well they work. I have a question -- what powder type and weight do you use for the subsonic 40gr V-max loads? I have not really done any subsonics yet. Win Auto Comp from 2.5-2.7gr gave me 964-1020fps 5 shot average velocities. Alliant Steel from 2.9-3.1gr gave me 988-1014fps 5 shot average velocities. All of the above loads were under a Hornady 55gr FMJBT seated to 1.585" OAL with Rem 7.5 small rifle primers and fired in an SBR'd PS90. I've never messed with getting the 40gr VMAX to go subsonic so I can't help you there, sorry. |
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Towerof power94,
Found a subsonic load for my .223 rifle and will try it. I don't want to state it right not since I don't know if it's safe yet. I would prefer to go with something like 77gr bullets but the load specifies 55gr bullets that's easy to get. I have a chrony but hate to drag it and all my other stuff to the range. What twist rate do you have in your SBR'd PS90? |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Towerof power94, Found a subsonic load for my .223 rifle and will try it. I don't want to state it right not since I don't know if it's safe yet. I would prefer to go with something like 77gr bullets but the load specifies 55gr bullets that's easy to get. I have a chrony but hate to drag it and all my other stuff to the range. What twist rate do you have in your SBR'd PS90? It's a 1/9 twist High Desert Dog barrel. I got it back in 08/09 before he began making his 1/7 twist 'subsonic' barrels. |
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Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
It's a 1/9 twist High Desert Dog barrel. I got it back in 08/09 before he began making his 1/7 twist 'subsonic' barrels. Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Towerof power94, Found a subsonic load for my .223 rifle and will try it. I don't want to state it right not since I don't know if it's safe yet. I would prefer to go with something like 77gr bullets but the load specifies 55gr bullets that's easy to get. I have a chrony but hate to drag it and all my other stuff to the range. What twist rate do you have in your SBR'd PS90? It's a 1/9 twist High Desert Dog barrel. I got it back in 08/09 before he began making his 1/7 twist 'subsonic' barrels. I was juat thinking -- I don't have a suppressor so I'm not sure why I would want to do subsonics right now. The 1:9 twist is good but yes, too bad you didn't get the 1:7 for heavy stuff. I'm getting ready for another test of both reduced loads in .223 and 5.7X28. I ran out of my 55gr horndy soft points so I only have 5 rounds to test. All the rest are 30gr, 35gr, 40gr bullets with 6.o to 7.5gr of Unique in the .223 and H110 or w296 in the 5.7 rounds. |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
I was juat thinking -- I don't have a suppressor so I'm not sure why I would want to do subsonics right now. The 1:9 twist is good but yes, too bad you didn't get the 1:7 for heavy stuff. I'm getting ready for another test of both reduced loads in .223 and 5.7X28. I ran out of my 55gr horndy soft points so I only have 5 rounds to test. All the rest are 30gr, 35gr, 40gr bullets with 6.o to 7.5gr of Unique in the .223 and H110 or w296 in the 5.7 rounds. Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Towerof power94, Found a subsonic load for my .223 rifle and will try it. I don't want to state it right not since I don't know if it's safe yet. I would prefer to go with something like 77gr bullets but the load specifies 55gr bullets that's easy to get. I have a chrony but hate to drag it and all my other stuff to the range. What twist rate do you have in your SBR'd PS90? It's a 1/9 twist High Desert Dog barrel. I got it back in 08/09 before he began making his 1/7 twist 'subsonic' barrels. I was juat thinking -- I don't have a suppressor so I'm not sure why I would want to do subsonics right now. The 1:9 twist is good but yes, too bad you didn't get the 1:7 for heavy stuff. I'm getting ready for another test of both reduced loads in .223 and 5.7X28. I ran out of my 55gr horndy soft points so I only have 5 rounds to test. All the rest are 30gr, 35gr, 40gr bullets with 6.o to 7.5gr of Unique in the .223 and H110 or w296 in the 5.7 rounds. 55gr is about as heavy as you can go in a 5.7 case and still get enough powder under it to produce enough pressure to cycle a PS90. An AR57 might be different. I know some have done 62gr steel core surplus bullets but I never bought any therefore didn't have any around to test. I do run the PS90 suppressed and while the 55gr subs were fun, they were never intended to be more than just goofing around. If I've got a fast enough barrel twist and the ability to mount a suppressor I try to do a subsonic load for all of my rifles just to have it in my back pocket should the need ever present itself. |
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Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
55gr is about as heavy as you can go in a 5.7 case and still get enough powder under it to produce enough pressure to cycle a PS90. An AR57 might be different. I know some have done 62gr steel core surplus bullets but I never bought any therefore didn't have any around to test. I do run the PS90 suppressed and while the 55gr subs were fun, they were never intended to be more than just goofing around. If I've got a fast enough barrel twist and the ability to mount a suppressor I try to do a subsonic load for all of my rifles just to have it in my back pocket should the need ever present itself. Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By towerofpower94:
Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Towerof power94, Found a subsonic load for my .223 rifle and will try it. I don't want to state it right not since I don't know if it's safe yet. I would prefer to go with something like 77gr bullets but the load specifies 55gr bullets that's easy to get. I have a chrony but hate to drag it and all my other stuff to the range. What twist rate do you have in your SBR'd PS90? It's a 1/9 twist High Desert Dog barrel. I got it back in 08/09 before he began making his 1/7 twist 'subsonic' barrels. I was juat thinking -- I don't have a suppressor so I'm not sure why I would want to do subsonics right now. The 1:9 twist is good but yes, too bad you didn't get the 1:7 for heavy stuff. I'm getting ready for another test of both reduced loads in .223 and 5.7X28. I ran out of my 55gr horndy soft points so I only have 5 rounds to test. All the rest are 30gr, 35gr, 40gr bullets with 6.o to 7.5gr of Unique in the .223 and H110 or w296 in the 5.7 rounds. 55gr is about as heavy as you can go in a 5.7 case and still get enough powder under it to produce enough pressure to cycle a PS90. An AR57 might be different. I know some have done 62gr steel core surplus bullets but I never bought any therefore didn't have any around to test. I do run the PS90 suppressed and while the 55gr subs were fun, they were never intended to be more than just goofing around. If I've got a fast enough barrel twist and the ability to mount a suppressor I try to do a subsonic load for all of my rifles just to have it in my back pocket should the need ever present itself. Good point about you're creating subsonic loads. I don't have to worry about operating the action with the 5.7X28 manual rifle -- it's a different story with my DI rig. the one thing about the reduced loads is they don't make as much noise to start with. I was doing the .223 reduced loads at the range and the fellow next to me wanted to know what I was shooting because they so little noise. I'd love to get a suppressor some time down the road. I finally free floated the heavy barrel on my manual .223 AR. 
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Took the rifles (both the manual .223 and manual 5.7X28) to the range for a test of some loads. Below is the 5.7X28 Manual Ar with a rifle length butt added.
The .223 manual remains the same since I added a full float handguard to see if it made any difference since it has a really strong HBAR marrel and I don't think it will flex at all but I wanted to add the Handguard. 
The shooting turned out to be fun with the wind coming from my right it did cause me to screw up a few shots. This first target was done using the .223 manual AR.  I tried to mark each target but I can't show the picture large enough for the labels to be read easily.
Top left target = 7.5gr of Unique + 40gr V-max. Top center target = 8.0gr of Unique + 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. Top right target = 9.0gr of Unique + 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. Middle left target = 6.7gr of Unique + 40gr V-max. Middle center target = 6.0gr of Unique + 40gr V-max. Middle right target = 6.0gr Unique + 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. Bottom center target = 7.0gr of unique + 35gr Hornady NTX. This second target was done using the manual 5.7X28 AR.  Again, I don't think the labels are readaable so I'll list the info.
Top left target = 6.0gr of W296 + 35gr NTX bullet Top center target = Again, 6.0gr W296 + 35GR NTX bullet. Top right target = 6.5gr w296 + 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. Middle left target = 6.0gr W296 + 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. Middle center target = 3.5gr of Unique + 35gr NTX. Middle right target = Another 6.0gr of w296 + 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. Bottom center target = 6.5 w296 + 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade. I have not really tried the Unique powder in the 5.7X28 cartridge because it gave me problems when trying to resize the cases. I plan to do more with the 5.7X28 case and Unique powder in the future. |
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Interesting concept. After reading this thread I am interested in trying something along the same lines. A bit of a highjack, but besides the side charging bolt, is the upper different from a normal SA upper? Or does it use the same BCG / bolt as a normal AR?
I have used a reduced .223 load using the 30gr VMAX with Blue Dot ( 12 or 13grs, but don't recall off the top of my head right now ) That stubby little bullet shoots pretty well out of a couple bolt action rifles, but I know other people have had issues with the Blue Dot loads. Trail Boss is on my list of buy on sight, but it is pretty hard to find in these parts as of late. |
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Originally Posted By onesureshot:
Interesting concept. After reading this thread I am interested in trying something along the same lines. A bit of a highjack, but besides the side charging bolt, is the upper different from a normal SA upper? Or does it use the same BCG / bolt as a normal AR? I have used a reduced .223 load using the 30gr VMAX with Blue Dot ( 12 or 13grs, but don't recall off the top of my head right now ) That stubby little bullet shoots pretty well out of a couple bolt action rifles, but I know other people have had issues with the Blue Dot loads. Trail Boss is on my list of buy on sight, but it is pretty hard to find in these parts as of late. Glad to see you've tried the reduced loads also. I was trying to get something in a range from 22 magnum to a light 22 Hornet with the reduced loads. Makes for a nice little varmint load without the big noise. Top velocities are around 2400 to 2600 fps. The Blue Dot you used is a real favorite with some people and should work really nice. I modified both uppers to accept the charging handle maybe 10 years ago. The carrier was drilled and tapped to 1/4X20 and the charging handles screw in and out. The bolt and carrier for the little 5.7X28 have had other mods done to them so the bolt face will accept the smaller rim and extractor and ejector will work with the smaller cartridge. The rail on the bottom side of the carrier must also be narrowed to allow it to pass through the FN 5.7 pistol mag. I use the same type of parts in my DI version of the 5.7X28 AR but right now I'm having too much full with the two AR bolt actions. By the way, I had another .223 upper I used and it had a 1:12 twist which worked about the same as the heavy 1:7 twist barrel I use now. I just added a Tac-latch so I could manually eject the spent low pressure cases. I thought about getting a latch that was on the right side so I could operate the action just like I do with the right side charging handle -- something like the picture below. I was thinking maybe you could try it. I may get one since they sell them at Brownells http://www.brownells.com/manufacturers/TACLATCH%20USA/index.htm |
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onesureshot,
I would like to try the Blue Dot powder but I don't have any at this time but may get some at the next gun show. In the meantime there is a site that showed some tests with Blue Dot using standard light bullets and different weights of powder and giving the FPS for each set of loads. I don't know if you've already seen it but it has some good info on it. The fellow talks about using cast bullets at first but if you move on down you will see the test he did with different weight bullets using Blue Dot. http://www.223reloads.com/home/223-5-56-info/223-5-56-reloading/subsonic-223-loads |
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Thanks for the link, some good info on there.
I wrote above that I used the 30gr VMAX, but actually meant the 35gr VMAX. It is a stubby little bullet, but works well on prairie dogs and has pretty much the same point of aim out to 100 yards or so as my full power 50gr VMAX load in my rifle. You will see in the charts on the page I linked below, my load pushes the 35 gr bullet pretty quick, but muzzle blast and recoil are nil, about like a .22 Mag from my heavy barrel Savage. At one point I ran a batch of 40gr Barnes VLC ( I think thats what they called ) that had the blue coating. They shot pretty well too, and the blue bullet made it easy to tell them apart, blue bullet = Blue Dot load. I was kind of bummed when Barnes dropped those. Here is the page a friend sent me years ago that got me started playing with these loads: http://www.jamescalhoon.com/bee.php |
That was a good site. The more I get into this the more people I find with good info. By the way, Hornady also makes a 35gr bullet that is an exact copy of the 40gr V-max only it's lead free so it's lighter.
They are more streamlined than the 35gr V-max so might work better. I use them in testing and find they can be very accurate. I may have to hunt down some of that Blue Dot powder. I can use Unique in the .223 brass but it's a little to fast and explosive in the little 5.7X28 case. I can run some hot loads of Accurate #9, H110 or W296 and Lil' Gun in the case and it comes out ok but just a few grains of Unique and I've got problems. The Blue Dot is a slower powder and may work better for me in the FN 5.7 case. I looked on the burn rate chart and it looks like that 800X in that thread has the same burn rate as the Blue Dot you're using. good luck with your shooting. |
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Went to the range today with my chrony and got some velocity information on the various reduced loads I've been using. In the .223 brass I can go from 22 magnum velocities on up with not that much powder. In the 5.7X28 I was actually surprised that the really light loads of Unique did much better than H110 or W296 -- I need to follow through more with that one.
Reduced loads using .223 brass and Unique powder Barrel length length = 20" and twist rate = 1:7 30gr Barnes varmint grenade plus 6.0gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2236 fps 30gr Barnes varmint grenade plus 6.5gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2341 fps 35gr Hornady NTX plus 6.5gr of Unique powder average velocity = 2244 fps 35gr Hornady NTX plus 7.0gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2309 fps 30gr Barnes varmint grenade plus 8.0gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2712 fps. 30gr Barnes varmint grenade plus 9.0gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2872 fps 40gr V-max plus 6.7gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2249 fps 40gr V-max plus 7.5gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2363 fps 50gr Hornady varmint SP plus 8.0gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 2186 fps 55gr Hornady vamint SP plus 7.5gr Unique powder Average velocity = 2069 fps ********************************************************************************** Reduced loads loads using 5.7X28 FN brass and various powders. Barrel length = 18" and twist rate = 1:14 30gr Barnes varmint grenade plus 3.5gr of Unique powder Average velocity = 1953 fps 30gr Barnes varmint grenade plus 6.5gr of H110 powder Average velocity = 1942 fps 30gr Barnes varmint grenade plus 6.5gr of W296 powder Average velocity = 1825 fps |
| I've decided to drop trying to develop reduced loads for the 5.7X28 because I'm having problems running any load heavier than 3.5 grains of Unique in the cartridge case and I can't find any Blue Dot at this time and won't buy it "On Line" what with the hazmat fees. The factory 5.7X28 rounds run fine in my DI operated AR although my own loads are a bit hotter and I kind of prefer them although the brass doesn't last as long -- the brass is kind of weak when it comes to hot loads. |
| Finally got to the range. It was super hot and there was a 4000+ acre brush fire just south of the range -- lucky for me the wind was blowing south so no smoke to screw with my lungs. I shot rounds using Unique from 6.0gr to 6.5gr with the Barnes 30gr varmint grenade and they all shot within 0.5" at 50 yards. Then I went to shooting Hornady 40gr V-max with 9.5gr of Unique and got the same accuracy. The 9.5gr of Unique probably put the velocity up around 2800fps. I had brought my chrony but with it being so hot I just wanted to check the accuracy and get the heck out of there. One bullet that was a big surprise to me was the Hornady 50gr soft point that was inexpensive but with a charge of 8.0gr of unique and another with 9.0gr of unique they both shot inside a 1/2" at the 50 yard range. there was only a slight difference in the POI. A bullet that did not want to work for me was the Berger 75gr Match Grade. I loaded 9.0gr of Unique under the Berger bullet but I guess I was not pushing the bullet fast enough and the accuracy was horrible. I don't really think I would use that weight bullet anyway but I had to try it to see what happened. They were so long I had to single load those rounds. this project was originally to try and duplicate 22 magnum or maybe do a bit better but I found that with just 6.0gr to 6.5gr of Unique with the 30gr Barnes I could easily do better and make an accurate little varmint round. The rest of the tests were more for fun than anything else although I do want to look into those Hornady 50gr soft points a little more. |
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Yesterday, after a long, hot work party at the range, I got to try a couple loads. Rifle: NM A2 with RRA 1:8 20" HBAR and LaRue MBT. Loads: 50gr VMAX, 4.5gr N32C "Tin Star", CCI 400, 2.255" 50gr VMAX, 4.0gr Red Dot, CCI 400, 2.255" Approx. MV: 1500fps Group size is about what I expected, ~3-4 MOA, but I've run into an unexpected issue: tumbling bullets. According to http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/, my stability factor is 2.08, so I should be good there. JBM Ballistics says my bullets are passing through the 100 yard target at 1295fps. Perhaps that's the beginning of the transonic stage? 1st group of N32C. 4 shots - the top right hole is from a staple. #5 is down low.  2nd group of N32C. #5 is off to the left with the other #5.  1st group of Red Dot. All the rest were round.  |
FBHO
Teener Krew 4 Lyfe
Distinguished Rifleman #2223
MOA All Day: #1 Service Rifle Division
"The .30-06 is never a mistake." - Townsend Whelen
Teener Krew 4 Lyfe
Distinguished Rifleman #2223
MOA All Day: #1 Service Rifle Division
"The .30-06 is never a mistake." - Townsend Whelen
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Hmm. With the same charge, 40gr VMAXs are stable at 100 yards. About 2.5 - 3 MOA. Single loaded, powder-backed.  Single loaded.  Magazine fed, semi rapid fire.  |
FBHO
Teener Krew 4 Lyfe
Distinguished Rifleman #2223
MOA All Day: #1 Service Rifle Division
"The .30-06 is never a mistake." - Townsend Whelen
Teener Krew 4 Lyfe
Distinguished Rifleman #2223
MOA All Day: #1 Service Rifle Division
"The .30-06 is never a mistake." - Townsend Whelen
Reduced loads in the .223. (Page 2 of 2)
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