Oh SNAP!

It's all fun and games until you need replacement parts quickly.

Detailed scientific study and analysis shows shit that guys who actually know the topic, have always known all along!   Rifle who's mass is closer to shooter, and under his shoulder, points on target-change faster and recoils back on target faster.  Who knew?!??

Glad they called out the reload item, because that's the lamest dig against bullpups in the whole list.  

True... but only if you ever do need replacement parts.

Yea..Thats pretty much par for the course unless its an Ar15...Getting parts from my Bren also sucks.

I'm a gunsmith.  You're going to need replacement parts at some point.  Tavor parts are more expensive compared to an AR and much more difficult to find in stock when you need them.  I can walk into most gun shops and find replacement parts for an AR15...can't do that with any bullpup rifle.  That by itself disqualifies bullpups from being anything but a novelty and range toy.

Bail out kits are AR's and Glocks only.

Are you trying to argue that the M1 Garande, all 1911's, hunting rifles, and virtually every other firearm on the market is a toy because you can't find repair parts at most gun shops?

You do you. I own plenty of firearms that aren't common.

But if I am going to chose any firearm in a SHTF scenario, it's going to be the most ubiquitous firearm(s) in the country.  


Real World example for you;

I was in a rifle training course last month.  20 students, 2 Tavors among them.  Both Tavors broke; one charging handle roll pin sheared off, and the other broke a bolt lug.  2 AR's had issues; a charging handle latch broke and the other lost a hammer pin.  Guess which guns were back up and running with an hour after a quick trip to a local gun shop during the lunch break?  The students with Tavors finished the course by borrowing other student's back up AR's.

Really? And just how far down the road is that 'some point'? Lots of AR's have needed repair parts (understandable in light of how many there are and how many may be of questionable build quality), but owners of X95's have reported going 5k-10k rds w/o cleaning, lubing or needing repair parts. The X95's bbl is CL/CHF so I'm not worried about that wearing out anytime soon.
I completely agree that it's a good idea to have spare parts, but honestly what are the odds I'll live long enough or put enough rds through my X95's (yes, two of them, I have a n identical backup in the very unlikely event something fails in one) to experience a part failure in what is for all intents and purposes a mil-spec rifle?

Was the charging handle in question factory or aftermarket? Were they the original SAR or the newer X95? Any rifle can be damaged if sufficiently abused.

Replacement parts is a lame point.

Buy frequently replaced parts for whatever weapon you own. Problem solved.

Sounds like they could've at least gotten one Tavor up & running.

In the past 6 months, I've serviced 4 broken Tavor rifles.  I've also serviced 19 AR's that required new parts. For the two parts I didn't already have on hand, I had them with a few days.

For the Tavors, I waited 4 weeks for parts for 1 rifle (left handed bolt that cracked at the extractor pin), sent one rifle back to IWI becuase the polymer clamshell cracked above the rear takedown pin, one sheared bolt lug, and one broken firing pin.

Was it the SAR or x95?

Yup. The Replacement parts things is really only a thing when everything is not SHTF.




Right? Spares is really only a thing when everything is going well.
And I agree..Most of us wont live long enough for our firearms to need parts in an SHTF..
Most of us aren't working with/in a team and we all arent John Wick..

It's a novelty and range toy because I can't go a gun store and buy replacement parts?  I assume that means a local gun store, but do you mean ANY gun store?  Does that mean any store that sells guns?  Like Academy or Dick's?  

Does "Bail out kits are AR's and Glocks only" mean that HK, Sig, Smith and Ruger are SOL because I can not find the parts at the gun store?

If that's the definition of a range toy and novelty gun, then ok.  Means I'm screwed in rural America.  I get my gun supplies off the internet, we just do not have these guns stores that are stocked with spare parts to elevate a gun from novelty status.

What is the platform every SF unit uses.......AR.

Who doesn't ride to combat in a cramped tin can?

Isn't the 1911 a poor example to choose for this?  
1911's seem pretty widespread and available to me.

I've broken something almost every gun I've owned.  I like bullpups.  All my bullpups run fine, and I've been able to keep them running fine with the necessary parts.

I've broken (snip: something on pretty much every gun I own)

If you actually run your gun, something will break.  And if you actually run your gun, you'll already have the spare parts you should, and can easily figure out how to get whatever parts you need; even if it's an Israeli discontinued bullpup.  Don't worry about it.   If TEOTW SHTF; it doesn't matter, the gun you have and know will serve you fine.  As the population decline ramps up under such (and it will, or it's not really a EOTWAWKI), you'll have opportunity to switch or to find the parts when you need to - don't worry about it; focus on securing water and medicines)

In the meantime, bullpups continue to be on the best pltforms there is.

I'd like bullpups a lot more if they could get the LOP down to reasonable length by current standards.

What length is that?

Most bullpups should last a while.  And to the guys who broke their X95s in a match, well, that's on them for not having spares.  While not super frequent, IWI does release spare parts for the guns.

Also you're forgetting the AUG.  Steyr has been killing it lately in terms of spare parts for the AUG.  You can get barrels which include the entire gas system, trigger packs, stocks, bolts and bolt parts, etc.  You can get an AUG and get enough parts to be set for life.  Stock cracking issues aside, AUGs also run forever.

11 or 12 inches, so that they can be easily shot and maneuvered squared up while wearing gear.

Problem with bullpups is you have to manage the Overall length legalities with a 16" barrel and a trigger pack for most Bullpups.
Currently the RDB and the X95 with a flat butt plate come in at 14"...The RDB could be 12" if it used the traditional ejection,but it doesnt.

Just make the barrel longer then, and increase the amount of forward rail space accordingly while you're at it.

10 seconds for a reload? That's gross.

They kind of look cool-ish and the OAL seems nice. But I'm too old and lazy to try and learn all the practical application nuance of a new rifle system.  

Also too lazy to watch the video

I had a Tavor SAR. It wasn't as accurate as my ARs, but it was a 1moa rifle with my hand loads, LPVO, and Geiselle Super Sabre trigger ( very good 4# trigger ). I could change mags a quickly with it as I could with an AR after drilling with the correct method for a couple of weeks, ie, Bump back of hand against mag release while pulling new mag from chest rig, grabbing mag a few inches from the feed lips, with my thumb on the spine of the mag, then slamming the mag in the mag well and letting my thumb hit the bolt release.

The gun was easier to shoot well, easier to handle in tight spaces, easier to shoot and aim with one hand while doing other things with the non firing hand etc. Perfect

Until I decided I wanted an extra bolt and parts for it for SHTF.

I couldn't find a bolt online, so I called IMI US. They wouldn't sell me one. They said the bolt had to be fitted to the gun. So I asked them, what will it cost to ship you the gun and have you fit a bolt, and ship it back?

They said they couldn't do that. They could only fit a bolt for me if mine broke, or, if I wanted a left hand bolt, and then it would be under warranty. I clarified, just to be sure they heard me right, that I wanted a spare bolt, and I'd pay for it and all associated costs.

Their answer was "Almost nobody has bolt issues, so there isn't a need for spares, and they wouldn't do it."

So, I thanked them, and I built another AR, bought a couple of extra bolts and parts kits, and sold the Tavor. I loved the gun, but I don't want anything that I can't stock spare parts for. It was a great gun, but spare parts sucked.

Heresy

Length of pull has been a problem with every issue bullpup since the AUG.

It's not an ATF overall length problem, because military issue guns don't care.

That scared me away from bullpups for a long time. But I think it's Fudd talk these days.

With the Ratworx 20/20, my AUG has a nice trigger. With Geissele Lightning Bow, my X95 has a nice trigger. My RDB Survival had a nice trigger out of the box. My Tavor 7 had a good trigger out of the box.

All of these guns have better triggers than standard AR15 LPK triggers.

uh huh, it is just as easy to walk into my gun room and pick up the parts from the AUG box as it is the FAL box or the G3 box or the M16 box

How hard is that to just keep spares on hand

and btw, right at 14,000 rds through my AUG and haven't seemed to need any parts yet.....

Well... if ya went AUG ..  

RatWorx spare bolt for AUG - $125.

Well no one actually shoots their guns so...

I realize they are somewhat of a boutique manufacturer but I don't know why K&M is not more widely accepted since they pretty much overcome all the negative aspects of the bullpup design.

Hmm...not sure if serious or not, but in case you are

The M17 is from the 1990s, from Bushmaster...it pre-dates the AWB. It was never very good or very popular. I'm sure they made some updates over the years (hopefully?) but...it's not even an "also ran"...it's a "never was".

Yea but your running out of space in the rear of the rifle for the bolt to travel (or have any semblance if a rear buffer) and the magazine well is further in your arm pit ( for those folks who use that excuse)

The K&M17 It has its own drawbacks especially when comparing it to all the other bullpups on the market.

There no way to extend the handgaurd or top rail.
Probably the most limited in upgrades of the bullpups.
The 308 version is very picky on what supressors work.
The alluminum frame does lighten things up, but requires something between your face and the metal in cold or hot environs..
Its not left hand friendly. Mag release, bolt release and ejection are not swappable. so..and shooting left handed means brass bukkake in the face.


It features Ar15 grip compatibility.
An Elfman trigger.
Basically you start with a trigger upgrade (like starting with a Geissle trigger in a tavor)...Other civilian bullpups like the Mdrx and Rdb have good factory triggers but I wouldn't consider the Elfman a factory trigger.
So..it starts off better that the original m17..But not much else.

Replacement parts should be stocked in advance in anticipation of future need.

I keep multiples of all critical parts for any firearms I regularly use, to include more obscure items.

And yet EVERY tier-1 SOF unit shoots a stoner pattern rifle of some sort.

I love all manner of different firearms and own a nice variety of European rifles, including several AUGs. While awesome rifles, the AUG is no match for a properly set up quality AR.

Who cares what SF guys do. Their mission is different from mine.

Does your LGS carry 1911 parts for every make and model?  Most 1911 parts don't play nice with different brands.

You know what, that is a good point.  Each sub manufacturer for the piston AR's are proprietary. So the HK 416 and most of the piston line up of sig would count as range toys where yiu can't get parts at an lgs.

I think that video was done in response to Hop & BF's video saying bullpups aren't practical.

Almost certainly.  TFB plays the muse; usually against themselves in that manner.  TFB is one of the few youtube gun channels I actually enjoy, and I think this one was well done.  I enjoyed the balanced awesomeness of the author, combined with the humility of basically saying he can't really understand everything in there, combined with the reality check of WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU USING THESE NUTSO METRICS??   (it's Because the Major Professor (the Last Author on the paper), made them.  FYI, the code in the Author list on a white paper is First Author in the author list is the one who did all the work both by their hands, and some intellectual; and Last Author is the major professor who secures the funding, ran the whole program, and provided the oversite and guidance and told First Author, what to do.  Or IOW, First Author was the grad. student, Last Author is the Prof he works for).  

In this video, what I liked about it, is the guy never really shared his own opinion, but instead let the white paper do all the talking, and let everyone argue with them and amongst themselves if you don't agree.  But I've seen over the years that quietly, that guy gets it: Bullpups are woefully underappreciated and exceptional arms.  

I've put thousands of rounds through bullpups.  One thing I've learned is they suck from the bench (ish), but afoot, they dominate - is my own experience.  Seriously, an AUG from the sitting position is a jumpy bastard with bad trigger.   But afoot, it's completely different, and they do indeed recoil back into position better than an AR15, and the trigger is just fine (especially if you upgrade the trigger via 2020 seer and red trigger spring pack).  And the whole "slower reload speed" topic is not nearly as accurate as claimed, with anyone who actually runs a bullpup; and more to the point far less relevant.  The number of times a civilian needs to reload a 30 round rifle class firearm in a real engagement, is zero.  Kyle R fired 8 rounds.    And in an AUG, it's a 42 round magazine option, if you are worried about that.  In a games setting such as 3-gun, you reload on the run anyway; so it doesn't actually matter.

So why do SF guys seem to prefer AR's over AUGs?  Well, I'm not LAV so am not InTheKnow, on SF, but I imagine the modularity of the AR caters better to the variable mission parameter focus needs for SF.  AUG and Tavor's don't have the rail space for silenced Lazer NODs Flashlight Condom grip mounts, that an SF team lead may want soldier #2 to deploy on mission #3, but then swap back out to bare on Mission 4, but for mission #5 he needs to...    And you want all your guys running cross-compatible gear, as much as you realistically can.  So the christmas-tree adorned AR for most guys, but others running AUG's, is a mess.
That's just a guess though.  Also, I suspect SF guys don't eat croissant's.

I dont know what you mean by "Extend the handgaurd or top rail" Can you give me an example of what you mean on the other Bullpups mentioned?
Suppressors were not mentioned as a "bullpup drawback" compared to an AR platform so im not sure how that relates.
.308 wasn't really part of the conversation at all. I think since we are talking about a comparison to an AR, its fairly well assumed that we are also talking about 5.56 Nato.
Valid point on metal on the face but thats not really a bullpup specific drawback in relation to an AR or the other Bullpups.
It sure isnt left hand friendly. Thats a big downside for 10%-12% of the world but not for most people.

But if we are talking about some of the other mentioned issues people have with Bullpups vs ARs the biggest (so far) has been parts availability which the M17S does much better, being that most of the "wear" parts are standard milspec parts which are easily accessible. It has a much better trigger as you mentioned which is usually the #1 bulpup complaint.

So.. I would say it has a pretty significant leg up on all other bullpups.

Huh, must be why all those professional organizations that carry rifles for a living choose bullpups.

Im not talking about the M17 from the 1990s. I'm talking about K&M's updated version which is being made currently. Yes I am serious because I know about it.