How so?

When I got the Tavor, I'd planned to get a Tavor SAR and an Aug M1 or whatever the railed version was. One for me, one for my son. The plan was that we would each keep one for 6 mths, then swap guns for 6 mths. We'd decide which we liked the best. If we each liked a different one best, we'd keep the two we'd bought. If we each liked the same one, we'd sell the one we didn't like and buy another one of the one we liked. My son decided he wanted to try an AK. He'd had ARs, we both had, several times before. He liked the AKs I'd had over the years so he wanted one.

If I get another bullpup, I will go the railed Aug route, unless something changes with IMI and I can buy a spare bolt to have on hand in case of failure.

I will say, in my own timed trials comparing a heavy 20" BBL MDRx in 6.5 Creedmoor, vs an M4 in 5.56 - I found the drill time difference practically indistinguishable.  

The 20" MDRx is a bullpup, so the overall gun length is about the same as a 16" M4 AR; if not shorter.  And while the MDRx is notably heavier, the mass is mostly under the shoulder area, so it doesn't slow you down - once up into the shoulder that is.   Even with a 25 round magazine loaded full of 140 gr ball ammo.

The heavier recoil of a full power 6.5 CM round wasn't really a factor, as the MDRx bullpup rifle really doesn't jump or recoil very much at all, even with that much larger class round.

The whole spare parts thing is pretty easy to fix your allowed to own more then one.

I dont know what you mean by "Extend the handguard or top rail" Can you give me an example of what you mean on the other Bullpups mentioned?
-> Sure, The Rdb and MDRx, and the Tavors have 2 handguard lengths' short one and long one (I think there is one in the works for the Aug.). Sometimes that's for the 20" guns or to run a suppressor in the long handguards while still having longer top rail space. OR..Just a longer handguard.
Its also nice to have a longer handguard when shooting on a barricade to not cause a POI shift..

Suppressors were not mentioned as a "bullpup drawback" compared to an AR platform so im not sure how that relates.
-> Some bullpups are really not suppressor friendly and may require a flow through can so your not gassed out with the ejection port by your face.. I was also comparing it to OTHER bullpups..and that is a drawback when shopping for another bullpup

.308 wasn't really part of the conversation at all. I think since we are talking about a comparison to an AR, its fairly well assumed that we are also talking about 5.56 Nato.
Theres a 308 version for all of the Civilian bullpups. Again..I am comparing the M17s to OTHER BULLPUPS..The automatic winner is the AR..as everything is made for it..its the rich kid.

Valid point on metal on the face but thats not really a bullpup specific drawback in relation to an AR or the other Bullpups.
No but that is a specific drawback the M17s vs OTHER BULLPUPS

It sure isnt left hand friendly. Thats a big downside for 10%-12% of the world but not for most people.
Its a downside if you have to do weakside transitions...Or let your left handed friend shoot your M17s..The Hellion (Allegedly) get around this by using the stock extended (Also can quickly change ejection sides)..The Keltecs and Desert Tech (Forward Eject) are ejection neutral. The Tavors can be made to eject on the opposite side but not quickly. (The 308 T7 is toolless for changing ejection)..

But if we are talking about some of the other mentioned issues people have with Bullpups vs ARs the biggest (so far) has been parts availability which the M17S does much better, being that most of the "wear" parts are standard milspec parts which are easily accessible.
What parts are those?

It has a much better trigger as you mentioned which is usually the #1 bullpup complaint.
The Keltecs and the Desert Tech also have better triggers than the guns usually complained about..Fs2000, Aug..and all the kit bullpups.

So.. I would say it has a pretty significant leg up on all other bullpups.
Eh..And yet..its boutique even amount the other bullpups as you have already mentioned for the price point it comes in at.

Ha, right. Though HK is well known to suck from a spare parts and service standpoint even for government end users, so while tongue in cheek, it’s sadly not too far from the truth.

Anyone relying upon the ability to obtain spare parts in the future should wake up and stock some critical spare parts.

The point is that “better” is subjective. If you want to run a rifle fast, add lights and lasers, then an AR is a better option. If that’s not you, then it doesn’t apply.

I do like an AUG as a compact, easily stowed, title-1 travel rifle for road trips if I’ll be out of state. If I’m in state, a sbr AR is my preference.

So I'm supposed to spend $1400-$1700 to have an extra bolt, that isn't fitted to the other gun, in the case of the Tavor?

That is, gently put, unwise.

In the case of the Tavor, the headspace in each gun is not the exact same. It's not like an AR where you can pretty much drop any in spec bolt into any in spec upper and the headspace be right in 99% of all cases. The  bolts must be fitted for each rifle.

That's why I was willing to ship my rifle and pay to have them fit a new / extra bolt, pay for the fitting and the shipping and the bolt. That would have been fine, but they refused to do it, or sell me a bolt. I could buy a barrel and bolt kit, but not in the same caliber, only 9mm or .300BLK, which I had no interest in.

All I wanted was a damn 5.56 bolt. That's one moment I really felt like Douglass' character in Falling Down.

I just want a fucking bolt!!! lol

Wouldn't the .300 Blackouit bolt be the same as the 5.56 bolt?

I'm not an engineer, but there has to be a way to address that?

Yes, but you can't buy just the bolt. You have to buy the barrel and bolt kit.

There is, just not a need for it yet, and tremendously expensive.  Something like the Uzi "telescoping" bolt.

You need a short bolt w/ an overhanging carrier, unlike the AR where the carrier is behind a long bolt.

KelTec may have done something like that in the RDB.

That’s one part out of how many and if it goes down you can run the spare rifle while the primary is fixed. I don’t disagree being able to have a spare bolt fit would be a nice to have.

Point taken on just the replacement bolt, but FYI, but they sell 5.56 barrel and bolt kits too…
https://iwi.us/product/tavor-sar-5-56-nato-barrel-bolt-kit-right-hand/

I'm not going to be roving the post apocolyptic landscape endlessly.  

Military units go out on missions with little to no spare rifle parts.  Thats probably more action than my x95 will see.  If I see there is a problem,  I'd grab a different rifle.  It will take less time than if I had to repair an AR anyway and i'd still have to go back home to do it.

Agreed. In the hypothetical SHTF scenario, you're most likely to encounter a 'click' parts failure when you really, REALLY needed to hear 'BANG.'

I said they sold those kits, but, that kit is $449.99, currently, and the bolt will be machined to mate to that barrel, not yours and that barrel. Why pay $500 after tax and shipping for a bolt and barrel, just to have an extra bolt, when you can pay $125-$150 or so to get a mil spec or better bolt and carrier for an AR, or better yet, get a microbest bolt for $80, that you can keep on your rifle in the grip or in a repair parts pouch.

Where are you going to store that barrel and bolt for the Tavor if the worst case happens. That's a ton of weight and a ton of space that would be better used for mags, short term food ( nutrition bars ), batteries, NV or Thermal optics, you name it.

Again, IWI, why can't I send my gun in ( other than I sold mine for this stupidity ) and have a spare bolt fitted so I can pop it in if needed. Why is it so hard to understand that things don't have to get too much worse before you won't be able to ship as firearm anywhere without the shipper denying to ship, or the shippers start getting robbed. We already had shippers getting robbed of firearms shipments a couple of years ago. Let's take care of this possible need, while there's a really good chance that it makes the trip both ways. Steyr does it for the Aug.

We preach two is one and one is none here constantly, but we just throw that tried and true fact away if it helps our argument. I have three bolts for my AR now, a Superbolt, an FN, and a Microbest. The Microbest will grow into another complete AR over the next year or so, the Superbolt is in the rifle now, and the FN will be the spare, but I'll get another Microbest or FN or Colt, whichever is on sale as a spare for the other rifle when it's built.See how easy that is?

So your thinking a spare bolt as a in the pack for a WROL type situation? I agree 2 is one but a second rifle means you have two of every single part. Maybe the bolt won’t swap but if the bolt failed you still have a second working rifle you can run when you get back home.

ETA: you can also have lots of different rifles for there various benefits and grab any one of them for the likely need.

No, you said...


The link I posted is the 5.56 kit.

Like I said, point taken on just the replacement bolt.

The only reason ar barrels are that price is due to the fact everyone makes barrels for them.

When you only have 1 manufacturer of that weapon, barrels get a bit more expensive..1 non bullpup example would be Templar Precision..its 650-850 for a barrel or even a different caliber..Desert Techs Mdr caliber conversion barrels are pretty comparable.

I actually have an extra bolt and barrel for my X95, as part of the SBR kit.

However I wouldn't consider an extra bolt to be as necessary as it would be for an AR since X95 bolts are beefier and less of a regular wear item.

They would not sell me the kit in the same caliber, unless I got a left hand bolt kit, but you could buy the left hand bolt if you sent your gun in to have it fitted. You could only get a barrel or bolt in the same configuration that you already had IF yours had failed, under warranty. I asked them that. I could buy 9mm or .300BLK, or a left hand bolt.

There was no possible way to get spare bolt from them at that time.

I would have probably bought the barrel and bolt kit if I could have, and then checked the new bolt in my gun with go and no go gauges. If it passed, I could have had a spare bolt or a spare barrel and bolt.

They would not sell one. Hence the reason I sold the Tavor. Shit breaks. It's man made. I want spares.

You keep saying the same thing, but the link I posted is the barrel & bolt kit, it is in 5.56, and it is right hand. That said, I give up, we’re beating a dead horse here.

It also occurs to me, if they were willing to sell & fit a left hand bolt, you could have done so. Then, send it back in and have them sell & fit a right hand bolt.

OK I'll bite.  Kind of suprised at the ask, though I suspect more contrarian while trolling the bullpup forum, than actually an honest ask.  Anyway, here's how I see the differences:

1) They are generally a multi-member fire team, where shell ejection patterns and muzzle blast effects on a CQB teammate can matter (both of which will be worse with a bullpup, to a guy immediately to your right)

2) They generally engage in surprise assault ambush events, where their biggest secret-weapon is the element of a well prepared and coordinated unexpected surprise assault.  To that end, each mission can have a spectrum of all kinds of configurations and jewelry hanging off the gun ranging from lights to IR lasers for their NODs to suppressors to etc etc.  But the next mission may have a heavier longer range spec and a daytime glass magnified scope on an 18" BBL, and the next one might... And to that end, they can custom pick the gun and config for the mission.  So the AR-15 platform can vary from 10.3" CQB suppressed, to 18" 600 yard in configuration.  All without Class 2 or Class 3 paperwork restrictions.  All on the .gov dime, so unlimited choices.  Whereas for the civilian, the bullpup is a nice semi-auto general purpose gun that works well both CQB and well long range, and the civilian doesn't know from day to day, just which he needs.  And since Civilian only gets one shot at a time, not 3, the extra power of a 16" BBL with no class 3 trigger and no class 2 regulated suppressor vs an equal length Class 2 regulated 10.3 with still only 1 shot, can be the more effective way to go.

3) related to the above, a bullpup adorned with all the thousands of dollars of no-paperwork BS jewerly and suppressors etc, is going to be pretty heavy; if you can even put all of it on there.  Most civilians don't have thousands of dollars of gee-whiz addons and regulated triggers and muzzle devices and regulated barrel length equipment.  But if one did, an AUG would probably start getting pretty heavy.  

4) While the fire-control group of an AUG is good for a line-troop; for an indoor CQB setting I can see one wanting the trigger to just be full-auto right there on the first pull.  Vs having to stroke all the way past the first semi-auto discharge and into full-auto.  None of that is relevant to civy.


Or to look at it restated, as a Spec forces guy going door to door inside, with a 10.3 with suppressor with night vision and an IR laser mounted on the gun, and a full-auto trigger sending 3 rounds at least into the bad guy; with your buddy covering your sides; will they get on target faster and neutralized faster, than a you or I can, with an AUG; an AUG in any configuration we want?  The answer is yes.  

But wait, I don't have any of that shit, and almost all of that is regulated, and the rest is just really damned expensive that very few mortals are actually going to do.  For them, between a 16" AR15 and a 16" AUG, in a CQB house which of those two are going to result in the ability to successfully engage and down two assailants faster?  The answer is AUG.  The AUG will be level as you manipulate that door handle with your left arm, it is one-hand deployable and will swing on target faster, it will recoil recover faster, and it will swing to the next target faster.  But wait a 10.5" "Pistol" might compete.  But now your 10.5" single-fired round is less stopping power than the 16" ballistics round, and only one round got sent before you had to shoot again manually.  And wait, why can't I hear anything anymore?   And wait, there's a guy out the window 200 yards away shooting at me, and I just have a 10.5" pistol (and that better be either class 2 registered if shouldering it, or have a bare tube - because the after action report is going to have some questions).

It's a little bit strawman in some of that, but that's the gist of it, and meh; you are trolling the Bullpup forums; so enjoy!

None of the current or former SOF guys I know use/used auto on a carbine. FA is for beltfed suppressive fire. Even when doing cqb, they all have said they are shooting semiauto. I’m just a civilian who likes cool shit, but I’m fortunate to count a few such guys as my friends and frequently shoot with them.

I have transferable MGs and while I absolutely love ripping off well placed controlled bursts, I would not use FA when the chips were down unless I’m doing so with a beltfed or it’s a last ditch very extenuating circumstance. As for nods and lasers, those should be in all of our armory. I have sacrificed buying other things I’ve wanted so that I could add the ability to fight at night. Cans and SBRs are a necessity as well IMO.

I’m in the process of figuring out how to set up my AUG m1 with a3sf optic to shoot at local night vision 2 gun matches, just because why not.

Again, I love bullpups specifically the AUG. Because it’s a very cool design. But if the chips were down, I’m grabbing one of my ARs if I have a choice. I would not feel underfunded with one of my AUGs, it just would not be my first choice.

That my GF would have a easier time using it was one of the reasons I chose the X95, although the stiff charging handle and the LOP are significant issues.

Mine liked the tavor better than the AR, and the PS90 better than the tavor. As a result in proper Arfcom fashion we got both.

If you figure out a good way, let me know...my DBAL D2 is too chonky to fit on the side rail on the receiver, or the side rail on the A3SF optic. I can replace the receiver side rail with a 90 degree one, but that puts the laser quite a bit off to the side...

I've been thinking of putting my A3SF optic in storage, going back to the original rail (or buying a longer one), and putting the DBAL on that along with something like an ACOG with a red dot on top (like the SF + red dot setup, which is really nice for passive NV)...the laser will be a little high, but not as far off as it would be hanging off the side.

what about like this for the A3SF w/red dot?

I have a light and LAM on my Tavor. It's the length of a 10.5" AR with stock fully collapsed, or a 7.5" stock extended, but with the ballistics of its 16.5" barrel.

It balances WAY better than an AR with all that hanging on it.

@SnowMexican
The LOP is the biggest factor. The SAR has a long LOP, even with the aftermarket buttpad options, and the bullpup design isn't conducive to LOP adjustability. Not an issue for my 77" wingspan, but may be an issue for even a 5'6" female.

How does your GF find the LOP on the X95?

Holy smokes, that vfg placement is hazardous.

Sure, find me a Rhienmetall VarioRay.

Did you even check to see if what you were pasting was available in the US, on the civilian market, at all

I was just talking about the red dot

Eh, many are as good or better then rack ars

I was pretty clearly talking about a DBAL...everyone mounts a red dot on the top of the SF optic. It's the reason it's 10mm lower than the non-SF optic, to allow mounting a red dot on top lower down, so people can at least get a chin weld when using it

Not sure if serious.

Their mission is to fight an enemy army or militant terrorists.

My mission is defend my own life, my family and my home, most likely against a meth head or two.

It's like the difference between a Superbowl and a football game in the back yard.


Agree.

The rest of the world is weird when it comes to part interchangeability.  U.S. small arms have had a high degree of component interchangeability since perhaps WWI, but certainly by WWII.  I always LOL when I see people excuse a lack of interchangeability as a feature and not a defect.

What is even more laughable is that these same slow as hell to reload shooters considered themselves as 8.2 out of 10 on how good they can run an AR.

As usual, people think they are way better than they really are.  Yeah, you are surely better than 81% of shooters at running an AR?  Oh but you had to think about how to do the reload huh?  Had to look at the gun, find the new mag, etc….yeah, your skills kind of suck!!!

And it was actually more like 10.5 seconds.  These people are 4-5 out of 10 on average at best…

Get some training if this remark resembles you…

Yeah, F/A isn’t a CQB thing for the most part:

“Gee- I need to whack this terrorist with a headshot, while a hostage is right near him, and both are moving, and I am closing the gap, other team members are in motion in the room as well- Hope I am in full auto!”  (Said nobody ever……).

(OK- it kind of was a thing with MP5 use…been a while since that was a top tier entry weapon though).  

And nobody give a flying fuck about shell ejection patterns either. Give me a break, everyone is used to getting hit with brass, it isn’t a shooting line.  There is some concern with muzzle blast, hence - suppressors and/or good hearing protection comms.  Not “gee lets change guns” due to noise.  

Not sure where he gets his ideas about CQB and tactics, clearly not from first person experience though.


Anyhow- I did discover last week that my AUG is not anywhere near as comfortable and as accurate for me in CQB/HRT training as my 11.5” Colt.  While on the move- transitioning targets, taking headshots etc, it just was less stable, jumped around more, and my hits were opening up quite a bit.  Now the Colt weighs a lot more, has a suppressor, and I have a shitload of training evolutions under my belt with the AR doing this kind of thing, so it is not a scientific demonstration one way or the other, but for me personally, I am certainly better with the AR in those kinds of situations.  (Both stock triggers, same optic, blah blah blah).  I also was not wearing full armor/helmet/gear so likely moving a little faster as a result of that as well.  

YMMV, etc.

She finds it awkwardly long even with the IDF buttpad, but then again she's like 5' 1".

The link you posted is from time NOW.  Redman was speaking of a past policy.  Apparently they have changed the policy, which is a good thing.  If they had changed the policy sooner, Redman would still have his bullpup.

The link I posted goes back to August of 2020. This superseded link, now dead, goes back to March of 2015... iwi.us/Products/Tavor%C2%AE-SAR-5-56-NATO-Conversion-Kits/Tavor%C2%AE-SAR-5-56-NATO-Conversion-Kit-Right-Handed.aspx Redman said a .300 barrel & bolt kit was available at the time of his inquiry and they were released in August of 2017.

In all honesty, and despite my own bias, this is probably the biggest issue with why Spec. Forc guys probably don't run an AUG.  Here's the LOP differential between an 18" BBL'd AUG and a MK18 10.5" Build one notch in, with the image centered on the trigger locaiton.  As you can see, the AUG is a lot longer LOP.  For a line-troop or civilian in Tee-shirt, not a huge deal.  But for a geared out tactical bad-ass with a thick body armor load out making his shoulder "thicker", it probably makes a difference being able to go shorter length of pull (as you suggest @WUPHF)  

On a side note, it's interesting to see distance from trigger to muzzle, is still longer on a 10.5" AR barrel platform, than it is in the considerably more powerful 18" barrel platform.  In CQB, probably less critical.  once the conversation includes shots past 50 yards, IMHO it starts to matter.  That 10.5" had 800 ft-lb at 10 feet.  The 18" is delivering 800 ft-lb at closer to 200 yards (ish).  

Well that's a hell of an endorsement.

but think why door kicker guys started doing the keep the stock collapsed thing. To shorten the overall length (closer to where the AUG already is), and to bring the center of gravity closer to the body for faster transitions (the AUG center of gravity is still closer in). HDLS mall ninjas and instagram/reddit LARPers followed just along

and if your optics are positioned to account for eye relief while fully kitted up, a fixed LoP shouldn't be an issue



From what I understand Australian SF went back to the AUG when Thales came out with the new F90 version

Agreed, I always pack extra parts and know how to work on my gun. you can get spare parts, but you also have to know how to work on the platform. If you can do both, then you’re solid. I also agree bullpups bring more to the table and that’s why I run them. i also work to vet my gear in competitions, which helps as I have seen some guns brake. That is one main reason I avoid holsters like omnivore. Good tests will help you find what works and a Steyr Aug works for me.

Point is it’s not much of an issue. Most can be upgraded and made better but their stock form is just as good as an ar. Some are better. Others can be made better. I also think a lot of people talk about triggers can’t make a 1moa pattern from a bench. I have my share of SAA and MBTs and I can shoot the same patterns with my bullpups. Now I’ve upgraded my bullpups but I also upgraded my ars even the lwrc, bravo, and robar. Being proficient in the platform you chose is far more important.

When comparing a bullpup to an AR variant being employed by actual gunfighters (SOF), the rearward center of gravity and shorter OAL are not a sufficient benefit in light of the many detractions of a bullpup, namely speed of mag changes, ability to add lights and lasers, ambidexterity, ability to transition between sides, ability to suppress, among others.

I have several SOF friends who enjoy owning and shooting bullpups and other non-AR rifles. They all would choose an AR variant for social use.

An 11.5-12.5” barrel AR with IR laser, IR illumination, visible illumination, and a can is very capable for everything from contact to 200 yds.