Yeah old Brent hit some highlights, as well as illustrating what it doesn't hold, ha ha.

The main reason we went with molle on the ammo pouches is so you could swap them out with AK pouches or whatever.  But for sure, a 3-mag 5.56 pouch will hold 2-mags of 7.62.  

And sustainment not made for an Aussie 1 liter bottle.  But fits USGI and MOD canteens, as well as Nalgenes.  

Obviously Brent has his preferences.  I think he is still partial to USGI LBE w/buttpacks.  And he sees no use for Tranny straps.  I think we've pretty well covered those points.  Some guys are partial to buttpacks, so perhaps an all-molle belt would suit them.  And tranny straps might come in useful depending on circumstances.

Two things that he did highlight: closure system and comfort.  

On the closure system, I hope it might be a bit clearer how that works.  If the pouch is less than full, it will still close with velcro by itself, velcro w/tuck tab, or velcro, tuck tab, and jump lock.  Or tuck tab, tuck tab w/ jump lock, or just jump lock.  I hope seeing him illustrate the various modes might make more sense than just describing them.  

On comfort, he lightly touched on it, but our marketing guru is a certified sports medicine guy, so he helped guide the shape of the hipbelt, for fuller support around your hip girdle, and lower lumbar regions.  So we wrapped our padding slightly further around than most hippo belts, so it covers the hip points, but still stays out of the way for kneeling and proning out.  And the padding and covering materials are exactly the same as our rucksack suspensions.  

Instead of re-explaining it here, amongst the "anointed", maybe better to provide reviewers with a detailed description of this gear from "Designer's" point of view.  Designer fully explaining ALL the features of the gear may provide insights not immediately apparent to many reviewers.

YMMV, but have yet to see decent reviewers hit all the points in favor of this rig.

Or maybe provide kind and friendly comments to reviews, mentioning things perhaps omitted in original review.

Just watched the review. I laughed hard as the First thing he said was "It Is good to have a removable lbe so you can dig foxholes with Just armor on". Ye olde infantry problems i Guess.
What i Always liked about him Is the fact that he Is oblivious to the tactical Gear world so he review everything with and extremely honest mind without any preconception, he doesnt care if a thing Is Miltec or Crye if It works and he Always figures out things his way. Case in point, he didn't know about the existence of cobra buckles.

You can definitely recognize his training in his words and his preferences, you can tell he enlisted at the turn of the century. Going without armor on patrols Is what force Recon did at the time. He would never tiè the pack to the belt as he was taught that the First thing to do in contact to survive Is ditching the pack. He doesnt even think about the viability of wearing the rig under the armour. It Is perfectly normal, he was trained that way and veteran colleagues have almost certainly given him tips about that topic.
While with time soldiers are taught updated tactics and techniques basic things like fieldcraft are rarely updated so you more than likely have to Stick with what you learned early.

On Brent0331 it looks like the shoulder straps could be a little longer, or is there a reason you would not want that?

That surprised me. Cobra buckles have been around a long time.... I agree he's had Marine Corps Indoc and it clearly shows in his preferences.

I couldn’t tell if he meant the polymer cobra buckle, or Austrialpin’s cobra design altogether.

Definitely old school knuckle-dragging grunt mindset, dude’s one of the few folks on youtube that focuses on soldiering rather than “gunfighting.” Ain’t glamorous, but the information/experience he provides is altogether more practical.

Hey @Diz was the DG1 Spitfire day pack discontinued? Be a nice addition to the DZ rig when they’re released.

I get where you are going with this, and I don't mind it, but giving talking points - other than the briefest of ones - to guys while giving them gear lends to persuading guys to advertise the product for you the way you want it advertised.  IE, influencing them to say what you want.  And I'm sure this happens alot with a bunch of different products.

The whole idea of giving this stuff out to a bunch of guys is to get THEIR individual thoughts about the product.  

Videos like what you are saying are better off left to the manufacturer, or one of their openly paid for marketing guys, to do.

I like Brent.  Very blunt and like someone said, more focused towards warfighting instead of gunfighting.

For the most part I agree, I guess the question for @Diz is regarding what information was provided or was there any dialogue following receipt of those that tested it.

Personally, I would have a list of questions on aspects I wasn't familiar with or at least find out the purpose rather than assume. CF has put a lot of thought into this kit, so there's a reason for many of the features. Now, not everyone has a need for certain features, or they have their own preferences, but I too would like to see the "manufacturer/designer" address some of those features that the testers tried to guess about or were unclear on.  

To that end, I do appreciate the reviews from different backgrounds. Differing perspectives, opinions, or preferences can be very informative even if it's not something you personally cared for.

ROCK6
 

I agree, in that having raw, unscripted reviews is the best way of going.  However, I also think the designer's intent needs to be expressed.  I just don't want to turn this into a stealth commercial.  So if you guys ask me specific questions, I will answer up until we cover any and all questions.    

DG1 "Spitfires" are now CF-1's.  And yes, they will be in production shortly.  The Diz rigs will be here in "a couple of weeks", and the new 37L CF-2's right behind them.  Then the new CF-3's which are the updated DG3's.

Yeah ol' Brent sure gives you the grunt perspective.  You gotta love 'em for that.  When we are talking line infantry, he's right there with a grunt's eye view of things.  

I would say, from my perspective, I am designing a belt kit for a small team, in an austere environment, with little if any support.  Instead of with the thundering herd, I am with 3 other guys.  If we bump anybody, we don't have the ass to shoot our way through everything, not to mention we can't afford casualties.  So stealth is our watchword, not firepower.  With this in mind, I want a rig that not only carries my fighting load out but has sustaiment for 24hrs+.

I'm also in an area that is swampy hot for at least half the time.  So carrying things on the hips instead of the chest makes sense.  Since I am more concerned with stealth instead of looking for a fight, I may not be wearing BA.  It may not even be possible in some circumstances.  

My SOP includes frequent security halts, where I take a knee to look and listen.  So ideally, my rig would bend so that all the pouches are out of the way.  

If in position for any length of time, I will prone out.  Having the front clear helps out a lot in this regard.

I will be carrying approx 15-20lbs on the beltline.  Some kind of padding would make sense.

Did I mention it's freaking hot.  Moisture absorption would be a plus.

I will frequently be wearing some kind of pack with this rig.  So making sure they play nice together would be a good idea.  

Then it's just a matter of getting into the weeds and figuring out how to accomplish all this with selected features.  Is there overlap with the "Sqaudie", of course; the PLCE is the basis for this rig.  But with an emphasis on silent closure and so forth for a smaller, independent unit.      

I think what I was trying to say above was that the DZ rig has some carefully thought-out features the value/purpose of which may not be apparent to a given reviewer.  I don't suggest for a moment that one try to "put words in a reviewer's mouth", or to "influence" the reviewer.

That said, perhaps there are ways to educate reviewers (and potential buyers) about some subtle but important aspects of the DZ rig.  I would think that the text and pix of Crossfire's DZ rig, on their Site, could perhaps be "adjusted" to make clearer some points of the DZ rig often missed by reviewers--and likely missed by potential buyers.

The comments by Diz immediately above are a good step in that direction, IMHO.

@Diz

I'll be ordering an M81/L-XL as soon as they're up on the site.

I have waded through this thread over time, and kept up with the reviews. Have worn all manner of kit professionally and recreationally camping/hiking.
You have a winner with this.

While I agree - I think that most manufacturer's can do a better job with pictures / descriptions and possibly videos (with youtube hosting free these days, it's not hard) on their webpages.  It's kinda one of my pet peeves.  (and yes, I know it's hard to handle descriptions and pictures for all of your products, I've run a couple online retail websites before, I get the pain)

However, I think that when it comes to very very different products - this belt kit for instance - you aren't going to change people's minds if it's for them on a webpage.  Basically, for stuff like this  'if you know, you know'.  And you will either gain that knowledge first hand, by someone personally guiding you, or from places like this and from long(er) form review videos, talking about the pros and cons and specific usage of this gear.

If you want to know how to influence people into the pros of this kind of belt kit, look at a video similar to Garand Thumb's 'how to be dangerous in the mountains' or whatever series.  Where he takes half an hour to an hour and goes through the very very basics of a topic to inform people who have no idea about that topic in an entertaining fashion.  You ain't getting a pro level class in what they are doing, you aren't even getting real details on each little bit - but what you are getting is a high quality, down and dirty, entertaining, 'omg, I never thought about that, maybe I should go get training or at least try it out for myself' overview of a topic for someone who has zero idea WTF the topic is about.  Example below.  Someone should do this with belt kit.  Heck, Crossfire should contact Garand Thumb and offer to send him some gear and fly Diz or someone else familiar with the subject and let Garand Thumb's team film a collab video about belt kit.  I guarantee it would pay for itself in sales while being informative to the world in general about belt kit.

https://youtu.be/LDqzlGBejWo

Hey Diz, side note, what are the differences in the CF-3's vs. the DG3?  (I have a DG3, so I'm curious)

Agreed.  I like buttpacks, and think that Diz should have at least gone double rear utility pouches, at least on the size large, if he was going utility pouches, so this isn't my exact cup of tea, especially with me liking 8 point harnesses (me nitpicking!).  BUT, this is a solid contender, the first of the American belt kits that have been released that hit all the marks.  It's got some nice bonus features - tuck tabs, bungee channels, I like how they have the adjustable sternum strap, etc.  And it comes in at a legit price point.  I've actually recommended it to someone already.  

I have a crossfire pack, and the construction is good.  If they do the same on the belt kit (I don't see why they wouldn't) then someone would be well served by this.  


^^  First world tactical gear problems?  'you will be happy with the used chicom chest rig we gave you comrade!'

Thanks Mate, that is much appreciated.

And you're right Raf, the text on the site needs some work.  

And yeah maybe I need to get off my ass and shoot some kind of vid.  

Well letsee here.  The CF3 is an updated version of the DG3.  We took a lot of feedback from the field, including our own, and made some changes and refinements.  As I've said in the past, I think the CF frameset is one of the best I have ever humped.  But there were things with the suspension and bags that we thought we could improve.  So the CF3 is the culmination of several things that we finally got the powers that be to approve and we wanted to re-brand the entire line to emphasize this.  Starting with the suspension, we found that when really heavily loaded there were some stability issues, so we revamped the way the shoulder harness attaches to the frame.  Then we extended the amount of upper stab strap adjustment.  Between these two things, the harness is now much less likely to sway under heavy load, or when doing a recon shuffle.  

We are also recommending a new way of rigging the upper stab straps to the frame.  We will be doing a new vid soon to demonstrate this.

The top lid is now detachable and interchangeable with other lids.

A new suite of external pouches is being introduced.  They are more conformal and use our new toggle attachment system.  

So yeah basically the bags themselves have been scrubbed down and improved to handle heavier combat loads.    

Attached File


My DG3 seeing me looking at the new CF3...

Dangit Diz.





I thought the lid was already detachable?  I'll have to check my pack later.

Are the external pouches going to be available separate?

EDIT:  Yea, I went and checked.  My lid comes off of my DG3 pack.

True it was just not all models did that.  We still have some older DG3's that do not, so yeah old news to you.  

Yes pouches available separately, but use our new toggle system.  But in your case, I can walk you through removing molle and installing new "ladder racks".  It's pretty fucking simple just takes some time.  

I initially converted my DG3 as model for the new design.

Going back to belt kit, I did a little yomp the other day, just to (re)validate everything I'm saying here.  Diz rig with 20 lbs, and DG3/CF3 with 30 lbs.  All I can say is that is I wish I had this 40 years ago.  

Just to clarify, there is a new post on line, with an influencer wearing the thing like an Ephod, or Riverine Patrol rig.  That is not the intent of this here rig.  It is made to sit down firmly on your hips to support your short back rucksack.  It will probably work just fine as a quasi-chest rig, since it has 6-points of support and nice padding, but...whatever.  

I have mine taped down now, where it just brushes the ruck frame.  So I can loosen the straps and let more weight fall on the rig, or tighten them up put and more weight on the shoulders.  Get both sets of shoulder straps to line up, as much as possible.  They are designed to work together.  I wear the ruck sternum slightly higher and with left-hand release, with the rig sternum lower with right-hand release.  When worn together, the ruck sternum takes the lead, with the rig strap slightly looser.

That administrative results guy? Not a fan of him, very High quality funny videos, no useful content behind. However he Is a good guy, good to see how he wears the rig and how It works for him even if It Is not how It was meant to be worn. Multi faceted opinions only add value.

Here

Edit: i would invite you to kill some free time reading comments about this rig reviews or pictures or even brent0331 poll about wearing a separate lbe or not, to understand other people's thinking.

Not an Admin Results fan. I know he is not prior service, and it shows in that pic.  He is a Guntuber who came up when chest rigs and such were the new hotness. Any soldier worth his salt knows how to wear LBE. Brent’s video is the best so far. He really laid it out well.  His negative dings were obviously more driven by his opinions and how he has worn gear over the years.  Anyone who came up with Alice and LBE was probably taught not to wear the waist strap. Hence his thoughts on not needing the tranny straps.  I don’t thing he grasps the full benefits of not having gear all the way across the front.  It’s more than for just going prone.  The one things I would say I agree with him on is the middle sustainment pouch.  I use two regular style PLCE pouches. But that compares to the carrying capacity of most butt packs.  If I’m wearing this gear, I’m doing it for the sustainment capability. Obviously comfort is the main winner for this.  And coming from someone who knows about humping gear, his kudos to that point carries some weight-pun intended.  Lol.

Really looking forward to Prepared Pathfinders review.  He should have a real good comparison of it towards issued PLCE.

What rig is that? I didn't see any description other than the edgy post about gravity being heavy that day.

It's the DZ. You can tell from the back pic. He's just wearing it too high.

That Is a large size Crossfire dz rig in woodland, the same rig we have been talking about in these last days.
It Is worn over a plate carrier. Maybe the fact that It Is worn so High and canteen pouches are full with what seem south african 2 liters canteens makes It unrecognizable.

Any links to Youtube?  I'm not participating in Instagram.

I typed too soon

I went back and looked, and like Joe said, it was the way it was configured and chest rig that threw me off.

I didn't see any review of the DZ on his channel as of just now.

No, not on YouTube at this time.

TYVM.  Like joeviturbo, can't say I've seen much "useful" content in the few vids of his that I've watched.

If he's "using it wrong", then likely results will be less than satisfactory.

Concur with suggestion that Garandthumb ought to receive a rig for evaluation BUT suggest sending a short note from designer (Diz) concerning the "finer points" of the DX rig.  Since "word is getting out" about the DZ rig, also strongly suggest text/pix on Crossfire site be revamped ASAP.

This "revamping" on CF web site is a legit response to reviewers using the DZ rig, and perhaps not understanding some of its features.  A proper revamping of text/pix on web site will be an assistance to folks interested in the rig.

Send Diz or someone like him who knows the ins and outs of the rig and how to use it to do the video with Garand Thumb.  I'm serious - even if crossfire sponsored the video and paid for the flight, it would pay for itself.  And he is open to having guests on the channel.  So is Administrative Results btw.  Who, like people said above, doesn't have a bunch of useful content - even he makes jokes about that.  That he is the wanna-be flat range LARP'r version of Garand Thumb.  But he is entertaining and reaches a bunch of the younger crowd - and he DOES do collab videos with the guys who know way more about guns and gear and tactics.  While some of us want to watch videos to learn stuff, we need to support people who are quality dudes who can reach the younger crowd.  This is how we continue to grow the community and gives us opportunities to train up the younger generation and Show Them The Way.  

These young guys aren't going to just start watching Brent's channel, or any of the other channels that show really serious stuff.  But they WILL watch Administrative Results, then see Garand Thumb, and others he is associated with on there and go watch their stuff - the stuff that walks that line between entertainment and actual serious advice.  This is where they start questioning things and want to learn more.  We really should be more proactive in putting this chain together and influencing and training up the younger generation.  Like it or not, but Call of Duty and other games, stupid entertaining videos, airsoft, etc. have introduced far more young people to the gun world than everything else combined.  

re: Crossfire's page:  Crossfire would be good to just put up a video of Diz or someone showing the ins and outs of British style kit, how to wear it, benefits, etc.  Personally - like I said above - do the video with Garand Thumb and link that to the site.  But one way or the other, a video and a description saying 'If you want to know more about how to use this kit, watch the video, it is different than anything else being sold'  (but phrased way better than that)

This is a great idea.  The collab video would be cool, but a simple video on the website would go a long way.

I agree with the above.  There is more one way to skin a cat.  Multiple approaches to marketing the DZ rig can be taken simultaneously and might augment each other synergistically.

While adding comments to a YouTube vid can be a futile exercise, if such comments could be linked to a CF-made vid (or even improved pix/text on CF site) that might persuade some folks to watch and read.  People place more credence in a well-done vid than they do most random comments on Y/T vids.

I have said it before - you aren't going to just randomly have people these days switch over to belt kit over chest rigs, plate carriers, etc.  They don't understand the whys and all they see is  'oh that oldschool outdated stuff like ALICE gear'.  

I grew up before we really switched over to chest mounted gear.  I'm a dirty civilian, but I get a set of ALICE gear when I was a teenager, as that was most of what was available.  Kids these days are the other way around - everyone wears their gear on their chest, and that's what's cool and in the video games and stuff.

Even military dudes - very few of them in the US military wear belt kit, other than a few specialty units.  So it's come down to  'Those who know, know'  when it comes to belt kit.  And if you are going to make people re-think their gear carrying and take a serious look at belt kit - and thus sell a bunch of them - then you are going to have to inform those who do not know, and get them to change their entire opinion on load carrying.  Which is going to take more than putting a description and even a dedicate 'why and how' video on your site.  

I know I keep mentioning Garand Thumb, but he has been doing something with his 'dangerous in the mountains' videos that no one else really has done.  He has leveraged his popularity to produce high-quality, entertaining videos that show down and dirty, quick info dump on the basic concepts around a specific idea.  He reaches a TON of young people who don't know any of this stuff, and it is making them stop and think and seek out more training, better gear, etc.  The community as a whole - gun community, tactical gear community, training community, etc. - needs to compound this idea, expand it and tune it so that there are easily identifiable ways to learn more about specific subjects - ie, some kid watches a video on *insert subject*  then it's clearly outlined that here are a half dozen places to gain more detailed knowledge - maybe some real life trainers, a couple books, and a few youtube channels to get more info.  Then do the same at THOSE resources.  

Crossfire is going to sell ALOT more belt kit - and packs - if they can leverage into this idea.  You are going to have to be proactive and actively go out and change people's minds about belt kit carrying, otherwise it is going to stay a niche product.  

Saying that, yes, a good simple video linked on their site would go a long ways.

Here's a GI Medium ALICE mounted to a Medium MOLLE frame.  It sits on top of a pouch shelf to ride as a "Short frame" supported by your belt kit.

It needed the addition of a section of PVC pipe inside the frame pocket to mount the legacy shoulder straps.  The pad is off the old ALICE frame.



I fabricated this rig from bits and pieces.  I made the Hippo pad to snap on to a GI pistol belt.  The canteens are Australian two-quarts (modeled after South African) while the yoke is a Danish copy of PLCE:

Attached File

Attached File

I’ve been following this thread since the start, but at 42 pages I can’t remember if the videos from here were posted before.
Apologies if they were.
Anyway, for me, this was some of the best to understand explanations of British kit from someone who has real world experience.

They may or may not have been posted.  He is another one who got a DZ Rig.  Really looking forward to his review.

If it weren't for the historically-themed videos, I feel I'd have unsubscribed from Brent's channel awhile ago. Prepared Pathfinder's videos are more information-dense and he seems to be open to anything that works. Even his reviews of something I don't care much about leave me learning something new or seeing something old from a new perspective.

Good comments guys, and I have past them on to marketing guys.  Hopefully we will have better content up soon.  Even if you have to listen to me saying it ha ha.

@Joe, for sure I've watched Brent's vids, in fact I've done vid calls with him and John @UWgear.  I was also a Marine grunt in the 1977-83 timeframe, so I know exactly what Brent is saying, and why he's saying it.  The difference being I have chosen to move past what I carried back in the day, to something that I think works better.  This is not to say you can't take old USGI "deuce" gear and do very well with it; I think Brent proved that point very well in the last SERE challenge.  And I think that was part of point being made there, that fancy kit does not make the Soldier or Marine.  With that being said, you should always being trying to "improve your position" with any and all things available.  

I myself spent some time in old Vietnam era deuce gear.  In fact I did some of my best training in it.  But I was also that guy who was always trying to improve his kit.  You might say I'm a bit of an Anglophile, because I prefer a lot of their kit over my own, simply because I think it's better.  Others may not agree.  But I hope our conversations here have given some a glimpse into other load bearing equipment and why they might want to take a look at it.  

And for sure, whether you like a buttpack or sustainment pouches; whether you like velcro and SR buckles, or tuck tabs; whether you rig up your pouches USGI or Brit style; these are all personal choices we make to optimize our kit for what works best for us.  What I have done with the Diz rig is give you "A" way of doing things.  It's simply my interpretation of the best way of doing things; it's not the do-all/end-all, and will probably be improved with time.  In fact I am currently working on some follow-on items based on feedback.  A lower profile yoke, and some damn AK mag pouches for starters.

Topmost pic of Med ALICE pack retrofitted with DEI 1609 "Open Perimeter" frame (intended for GI MOLLE Medium pack) is the first pic I've seen of that being done.  Nice to know that that is an option.  It would also be interesting to know if GI LG ALICE pack would adapt well to the 1609 frame.

What really matters is how well the 1609 frame "plays" with the LG and MED ALICE packs, and that would require some field testing.

I'm still dumbfounded that Crossfire removed your 'How To' Ruck Setup and Adjustment videos?????? They need to either re-post them, or redo them if they didn't like the production quality.

I tried with both.  The big Airborne FILBE frame is overkill for the Medium (doesn't work well for "Short frame" fit on belt webbing pouch shelf), and Large ALICE has nothing over the FILBE bag so I didn't pursue it.

Of all things for people to bitch about.

Looking forward to your commanders pouch. Assuming that’s on the horizon.

Oh yeah for sure; that's right behind it.  The list includes 2-mag AR, 2-mag AK, 2-mag 7.62, compass, BOK insert, cmdr's, smoke, frag, and bum roll.  That should keep me out of the titty bars for awhile.

Good stuff. Btw, did you see my second email?

It's vehicle mounted vs walkers.

Belt kit doesn't work in the vehicle. Seats aren't designed for it. I have a chest rig for vehicle ops and a belt rig for romantic strolls.

Hopefully those 7.62 NATO pouches will be long enough for the 25 round PMags.

Not the same frame but I have a LBT on  DEI frame

link to my EE ad with pics

That kind of cuts to the heart of the issue.  Brits have always been primary walkers; we have been spoiled beyond belief.  Although the specialist troops have continued to ply their trade on foot, throughout.  

Yeah I keep hearing those 25-rdrs are pretty popular so gonna have to see about that.  

On walking vs riding.  I did talk to a very switched on troop who came through the ranks with PLCE style kit and he suggested two solutions.  The first was simply removing sustainments for vehicle ops.  The second was actually turning the rig around backwards.  Obviously door number two for us.  He would loosen the belt, shrug out of the shoulder straps and just rotate the belt around.  Also a good technique to get into sustainments, buttpack, etc. without actually doffing the rig.  

CAP6888 negative lemme look.

OK found it, reply sent.

From Diz: "On walking vs riding.  I did talk to a very switched on troop who came through the ranks with PLCE style kit and he suggested two solutions.  The first was simply removing sustainments for vehicle ops.  The second was actually turning the rig around backwards.  Obviously door number two for us.  He would loosen the belt, shrug out of the shoulder straps and just rotate the belt around.  Also a good technique to get into sustainments, buttpack, etc. without actually doffing the rig."

Rotating the rig for vehicle use is an interesting work-around.  Hopefully this will not require any re-working of the rig, particularly the harness.

Nah I think they just rode with shoulder harness in their laps, and then just rotated and shrugged back in when dismounted.

Another good reason for a slick front, or back in this case.

Also to edit; you could simply empty sustainments 'round back and smush them flat.