Originally Posted By Diz:
As far as cold weather, the idea is that the buddy team could split up the sleep system, whatever that might be, because one is on stag, while the other sleeps or does admin.  So a proper cold weather sleep system could still be carried, just one complete system between two guys.  So each guy carries a bag, that are combined together, or one bag and one bivy cover, etc.

Even if the team only carried 3 sleep systems, with one guy on stag, it's still some weight savings.  

If you actually needed a tent, then again it is split up between two guys.  Or a team tent split up between all 4 guys (that only needs to fit 3, right?).  

More food, cook stoves, and fuel.

Obviously, a larger pack is required.

You won't be comfortable all the time, but enough to stay operational.  

And I'm not saying it won't suck, but it's doable.

We worked with the Swedes a couple of years ago in developing a tent for reconnaissance work up on the Russian border, so I get it, sometimes it's so cold you gotta have full kit for everybody.  They could only stay on cold routine for a day or so before guys had to rotate to warming tents in the rear.  But most of us are below the arctic circle.

Originally Posted By joeviterbo:

I am the first to admit that after 15 years of normal 9 to 5 life (living in a country village, so lot of outdoor activity) i am no longer confident i can easily live in the field with less than two MREs and two liters of water per day, sleeping over half a foam mat that covers only the torso, wrapped in a poncho liner with goretex trousers on as i used to do.

I just got back from the yearly commemorative march on the path that a SAS team made where i live in a operation in 1944 (Operation Pomegranate if you want to check). 3 days, 75 kilometers, with packs, in the woods, sleeping in rural houses.
Dang, this year it got old fast.

Originally Posted By cap6888:
20 years ago my gear in Iraq was the following;

PASGT vest and K pot
LBV with belt
2-1 quart canteens (two cups and one stove)
2-200 round SAW pouches
2 frags
Buttpack with poncho/liner, spare socks, MRE, trioxane bars
Camelbak (actually a Blackhawk version)
CLS bag
M40 gas mask
SAW and spare barrel bag.
AT4

Medium Alice with;
2-200 round SAW drums
MOPP suit
Spare uniform (DCUs, socks, drawers)
MSS bivy bag
3 MREs
Wet weather tops and bottoms
Basic hygiene stuff

As a combat engineer unit, we didn’t move much farther than a few miles without just loading up onto trucks. So there’s that. Back then we thought we our load out was fairly easy. I’m sure now, it be moving wayyy slower if at all carrying all that.

With the LBV strapped into the PASGT, while it seemed heavy to just pick it up, when wearing it, it was comfortable. I believe the difference is “wearing” the weight instead of carrying it.  I think that’s the difference with PLCE. You “wear” the weight more than carry it. My current PLCE loaded is 25 pounds, but wearing it, you hardly notice it.i can easily operate with just that for 24 hours plus.  Add in a camelbak and some extra food, I could go 48-72 hours.  Weather is the limiting factor.  I could do those time frames from spring through early fall.  Once the temps drop, you have to add a pack for snivel gear and a sleep system (sleeping bag, not Ranger roll). Seeing as I won’t be carrying a belt fed or AT4 anymore, that weight savings helps to allow for other gear allowances.  For a “civilian defense force” staying under 60 pounds is fairly easy. No fancy weapons or equipment to make up weight.  Hot swapping sleeping systems is definitely a way to help share weight. If recon or knowledge of the AO allows for places to access water, you can cut down water weight.  Although I would like to still step off with 4 liters for a 96 hour op.  Just in case.

Joe said it best, knowledge trumps equipment.  You can improvise a lot of things in the field so you don’t have to pack “luxury” items. Although as we get older, some of those luxury items will pay in dividends.  I’m gonna have to bring an inflatable sleeping pad nowadays. If I sleep on a half inch foam pad, I’m gonna be useless the next day.

Originally Posted By raf:
US WW II Army implemented the "Shelter-Half" system.  Each GI carried  1/2 Shelter-Half plus 1/2 half the pols/stakes necessary.  Basically a cotton canvas "Pup-Tent".

Problems arose with casualties and after-action disorganization.  No Expert, but have never heard a single word in praise of this system, nor in praise of the actual "Shelter-Half " item itself.

Having played with surplus items when a kid, I can understand why troops disliked both the item, and the deployment system.

Originally Posted By raf:
US WW II Army implemented the "Shelter-Half" system.  Each GI carried  1/2 Shelter-Half plus 1/2 half the poles/stakes necessary.  Basically, a cotton canvas open-bottom "Pup-Tent".  As one can imagine, with canvas and wood items, it weighed a lot.

Problems arose with casualties and after-action disorganization.  No Expert but I have never heard a single word in praise of this system, nor in praise of the actual "Shelter-Half " item itself.  For personal protection against the elements, the "shelter-halves" were much inferior to a poncho, which is saying something.

Having played with surplus items when a kid, I can understand why troops disliked both the item, and the deployment system.

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:


1.  Cut out one of the canteen cups.  You don't NEED two of them.  That weight would be better served elsewhere.

2.  Each person should have a poncho, minimum.  Even if no poncho liner.  It doubles as rain gear, shelter, and extra sleeping layer.  Everyone NEEDS a rain gear layer.

If you get a modern poncho, made of modern materials, and a modern poncho liner - well, mine is 25 years old, but it's one of the special run of poncho liners Brigade Quartermaster made back in the day with thinsulate insulation instead of poly batting.  Warmer, lighter, and packs significantly smaller.  I can EASILY fit both the poncho and poncho liner in my buttpack with about half the pack's space left.  I should pull them out, but I'm pretty sure I can fit both into a single surplus PLCE utility pouch.  I know I can fit one of the two into the pouch by itself.

That weight and space is worth each person carrying.  It gives you rain gear and a minimum of insulation for emergencies / sleeping / really bad weather.

3.  Everyone should have a compass and basic map.  Even if just a minimalist compass and a general map of the area.

4.  Medic bag - I'm going to be brutally honest here.  If you are down to running community defense patrols, odds are that you will not have modern medical care, much less evac, available.  Even if you CAN break contact as a small and get your wounded bro and are able to E&E back to your main basecamp / community / whatever with the wounded dude, the odds that you will have modern medical care, or for alot of these groups, ANY care more than basic stuff, is really slim.  We are not talking about a modern military unit.

I'm not saying don't take a medic bag, or even IFAK's.  I'm saying that they can be minimal.  You and your group might have trained medics and doctors back at base, but your average local community isn't going to have that.  The best most of them can hope for is a nurse or something that's back at base.  Just food for thought.

5.  Same with suppressors and NVG.  Odds are these groups won't have them, especially suppressors.  You are going to be lucky if your groups ends up with a few baofang radios.  But I get the idea.

6.  I like some of the stuff Nixieworks is doing, I've been eying his stuff since it came out.  However, the idea that I'm stuck carrying everything in a big buttpack and that buttpack totally destroys my ability to carry any pack other than a tiny assault pack?  Naw.

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:


I can see the major things carried in the pack are food and seasonal clothing and the extra shelter items past your poncho (which is your emergency shelter)

Maybe we should look at what long-range backpackers take for gear too.  They do this stuff for 4-6 months (some longer) for 30+ miles per day, almost without stop.  Combine what they carry for sustainment with your basic combat load.  

As for inflatable sleeping pad - yea, I getcha.  I'm older now.  For most of my adult life I slept on a bedroll on the floor (by choice).  I do like my cushy foam bed now.  However, a month of sleeping on that 1" foam backpacking mattress will go a long ways to getting you back into that condition.  And I'm going to say this - almost everyone, with only a few exceptions, that I've seen take an inflatable sleeping mattress with them on longrange backpacking trips?  Those mattresses catastrophically failed on their trip.  Just pointing that out, because there will be no 'lets hop into town to resupply and get me a new mattress, k?'.  

Originally Posted By Vexed:


The bolded is a harsh reality for what I'm betting most will face when SHTF. No surgeon, A BOK is gonna be wasted space IMO. My kit has one but I don't personally know any Docs that will be around SHTF so I pretty much count on dying if I'm shot/ sustain a serious bleed.

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:


The Germans issued the Zeltbahn during WW2.  It was a triangular 'shelter half' that doubled as a poncho.  It was not made of canvas like the USGI shelter half, but of a tightly woven cotton poplin weave, similar to Ventile cotton fabric.  This made it lighter and almost waterproof.  They also treated it with waterproofing treatment to help it be even moreso.  

The zeltbahn weighed in at right around 2 pounds.  You could probably get it slightly under that if you replace the metal grommets it had with modern webbing straps like alot of the good tarps are going to.  

A USGI poncho weighs around 24 ounces, so the Zeltbahn wasn't that much heavier.  It WAS a bit more bulky though.  German webgear strapped it to the outside of their gear though.  

The zeltbahn would also have the benefit of being much more durable than a modern poncho.....

http://blog.atthefront.com/graphics/zelt3.jpg

http://blog.atthefront.com/graphics/zelt2.jpg

http://blog.atthefront.com/graphics/zelt1.jpg

http://blog.atthefront.com/graphics/zelt_torn.jpg

https://www.atthefront.com/category-s/181.htm

Originally Posted By raf:
I long ago gave up on any sort of "inflatable" air mattress due to item failures.  It's one thing to attempt repair of such an air mattress when in dry and reasonable temperatures, not omitting alcohol to clean the puncture area, and if you can find the puncture(s).  Quite another thing to repair such inflatable mattresses in extreme cold and without adequate surface prep in order to promote patch (do you have one?) adhesion.

It's highly unlikely one will be repairing one's inflatable air mattress in the driving rain, or the blowing snow.

I'm not an Expert such as @ROCK6 but for extreme conditions, I don't consider inflatable air mattresses a viable device.  YMMV.

What I do is include an (admittedly) bulky closed-cell foam sleeping pad, and augment it as lower temps require.

I think we are straying a bit beyond the original "Hot Weather/Jungle intent of the thread.  Understood LOTS of overlap between hot/cold and wet/dry environments.  Just my opinion, and I understand the fundamental concept of "Jungle"/Hot weather concept of the belt kit can be augmented/adapted to other climates.

Originally Posted By raf:
Interesting concept.  I'd like to hear user-comments about it.

Originally Posted By raf:
US WW II Army implemented the "Shelter-Half" system.  Each GI carried  1/2 Shelter-Half plus 1/2 half the poles/stakes necessary.  Basically, a cotton canvas open-bottom "Pup-Tent".  

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:


Local defense force probably won't have alot of comms.  

And look at Ukraine - if you have a modern military opposing you, or even larger organized groups like cartels, you are going to have serious issues using comms at all.

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:


Bergman's channel on Youtube is interesting.  ]

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:



I mean, I'm not saying don't take a BOK.  A small minimalist one is worth having.  The big, bulky IFAKs people have today will be a waste of space and weight.  Also since most people are idiots and won't have one anyways, they are going to have to make do with whatever they can scrounge up.  Personally I have a couple nice ones, because you never know in regular life, plus I want all the chance I can have to survive some idiocy.  I'm also a realist and realize that if something happened to me, I'm not getting modern medical care.  Heck, most people will be lucky to have something to disinfect a wound.  

Here's a much more important question you should be asking during SHTF scenarios than 'what's in my IFAK?'  It's  'WTF is Dakin's Solution?'

Originally Posted By raf:
US WW II Army implemented the "Shelter-Half" system.  Each GI carried  1/2 Shelter-Half plus 1/2 half the poles/stakes necessary.  Basically, a cotton canvas open-bottom "Pup-Tent".  As one can imagine, with canvas and wood items, it weighed a lot.

Problems arose with casualties and after-action disorganization.  No Expert but I have never heard a single word in praise of this system, nor in praise of the actual "Shelter-Half " item itself.  For personal protection against the elements, the "shelter-halves" were much inferior to a poncho, which is saying something.

Having played with surplus items when a kid, I can understand why troops disliked both the item, and the deployment system.

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:
6.  I like some of the stuff Nixieworks is doing, I've been eying his stuff since it came out.  However, the idea that I'm stuck carrying everything in a big buttpack and that buttpack totally destroys my ability to carry any pack other than a tiny assault pack?  Naw.

Originally Posted By cap6888:
As far as med gear, I’m gonna put in my two cents as a former paramedic. First and foremost, no one has said to just give up and leave them for dead, so I’m not implying that. And given the group’s situation, there is the tiniest of chances they have some follow on care. So some med gear is a necessity. Extremity wounds may be treated a little more easily. Especially if it just takes a chunk out of the fleshy part and doesn’t hit a bone. IF the group is wearing plates, that may help to mitigate torso injuries. I won’t argue that a GSW to the chest/abdomen is probably going to be fatal. But you have to at least dress it, if nothing else but for the psychological reasons. I don’t think a large medic/corpsman pack is necessary, but a small CLS type bag wouldn’t hurt if you have someone with some medical training.

Originally Posted By wsix:


I used to argue with bergmann. He wouldn't explain his military credentials, even in private. I'm pretty certain he's a fucking poser. I left the UW gear forum over it. It's incredibly easy to fake "deep in the bush". Bear Gryll's is a good example.

As far as bears are concerned, you are more likely to find them close to town as opposed to way out in the bush.

Thinking you can indefinitely E&E is naive and silly, especially in frigid weather.

Hiroo Onoda you ain't.

Originally Posted By Ex_Sanguine_Nation:
I am statistically unlikely to face even one enemy combatant, so a micro rig with 2 mags should suffice.

The hardest thing to do is be honest with ourselves.

Originally Posted By SCR556:

The point to his rig is to forego any other pack in most situations - it replaces the ruck. If you need to carry more gear (extreme cold weather for example) you could add a small assault pack.

Originally Posted By Horned_Toad:


No end user comment because I would never use it.  It sounds good till its pouring rain and your trying to turn your garment that’s keeping you dry into a shelter to keep you dry.  Aint going to happen.

Originally Posted By wsix:
I also have the Zeltbahn. I used it as a tent once. It's not waterproof and the canvas tents were never intended to be. A 45degree angle ensures the water runs down the outside or the inside wall. The trick is to not come in contact with the wall and have a ditch the Zeltbahn edge goes into. I currently use 3 out of the four pieces I have as a curtain. Work's fantastic.

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:
Welp.  So I didn't see THIS coming.

Arktis is making a run of modernized Russian SMERSH belt kit for Kommandostore.

There goes my idea to obtain a set of SMERSH and make knockoffs of it now that it is unobtainium.  Oh well.  The AK guys are going to love this.  

https://kommandostore.com/products/smersh?_pos=1&_sid=fcc15c82c&_ss=r

Originally Posted By joeviterbo:

A person on reddit writes about that arktis smersh "i think it def beats out the crossfire DZ rig in terms of features, i'm holding off though until other people check it out."

It. Beats. The. DZ. Rig. In. Terms. Of. Features.    Let that sink in.

Originally Posted By raf:
It's highly unlikely one will be repairing one's inflatable air mattress in the driving rain, or the blowing snow.

I'm not an Expert such as @ROCK6 but for extreme conditions, I don't consider inflatable air mattresses a viable device.  YMMV.

What I do is include an (admittedly) bulky closed-cell foam sleeping pad, and augment it as lower temps require.

Originally Posted By joeviterbo:


That was unexpected to say the least. Deliveries start september 2024. That is definitely for fashion/old school fad that is going around these days, just like the HEAT vest and the other things he sells. If i had to i would definitely buy a surplus one, not sure about the new chinese ones.
Spoiler: i saw many ones, never owned one. Maybe someday when i will find a cheap one.....   a friend was selling one for 80$ a few months ago, seeing the prices today i should have bought it .

Never understood the hype around it, it is iconic for sure, but to me it is just an alice kit with a hippo type belt pad and a h harness. didn't the guys know about the wonders of a wide belt pad?

A person on reddit writes about that arktis smersh "i think it def beats out the crossfire DZ rig in terms of features, i'm holding off though until other people check it out."

It. Beats. The. DZ. Rig. In. Terms. Of. Features.    Let that sink in.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tacticalgear/comments/197s8rs/kommandostore_x_arktis_smershak_talk_me_out_of/

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:

Snip

2.  Each person should have a poncho, minimum.  Even if no poncho liner.  It doubles as rain gear, shelter, and extra sleeping layer.  Everyone NEEDS a rain gear layer.

If you get a modern poncho, made of modern materials, and a modern poncho liner - well, mine is 25 years old, but it's one of the special run of poncho liners Brigade Quartermaster made back in the day with thinsulate insulation instead of poly batting.  Warmer, lighter, and packs significantly smaller.  I can EASILY fit both the poncho and poncho liner in my buttpack with about half the pack's space left.  I should pull them out, but I'm pretty sure I can fit both into a single surplus PLCE utility pouch.  I know I can fit one of the two into the pouch by itself.

Originally Posted By towerofpower94:

Had shelter halves in Army Basic Training in the summer of 2001.

It’s the item I use most often to tell people ‘mil-spec’ doesn’t mean it’s good.

Originally Posted By Diz:
About the SMERSH rig.  OK, if you run an AK, and just have to have a buttpack, there you go, comrade.  However.  I wouldn't recommend wearing all black, and running around on the skyline.  But I get it, and who their target audience is, so...chto by ni.    

In terms of treating gunshot or other wounds.  I've heard this mantra about no medical support, so just "lay down and die" before.  While there is some truth to it, this is a very local thing.  I would treat a gunshot wound, the same way I would treat any other wound.  So maybe it would make more sense to call it a trauma kit, and leave it that.  If you do have a medic, then why should he not carry a medic kit.  Again, more about backwoods medicine, not necessarily gunshot wounds.  Also, and this depends totally on the local sit, but if you have at least a vet, you might have a fighting chance.  So, at what percentage do you want to say, it's worth taking a chance and treating it.  Yes, you are much more likely to die, but does that mean you don't even try?  

In terms of milita, self-defense, etc.  Some of you paint a very dark picture.  And again, there is some truth to that POV.  But for fucks sake, if you think your chances of survival are that slim, go to Vegas, get laid, and forget about it.  And again, this is going to totally depend on your local situation.  There are many people who actually know what they are doing, and there are many Walter Mitty's.  So that sorta depends.  Many actual threats out there, that may run over you before you're ready.  But I would also say that's a matter of proximity to the problem and is up to you to avoid those areas.  

We are way off-topic here (sorry Raf), but in a nutshell, after some sort of collapse, you are going to see an initial period where folks are hunkered down.  This might also be a time of equipping and training.  Then the scavengers are going to show up.  So even though it might be a very sharp period of OJT, folks will finally be getting their heads out of their asses.  There will be organizations that rise up and can fight the cartels.  Don't know the outcome but I do know this; I will go down fighting before I live in chains.  YMMV.

In terms of cold weather.  It sucks.  

In terms of shelter.  The Brit basha is king.  

In terms of comms, cans, and NVD's.  Some people will have them and know how to use them.  Others won't.

This is all a personal choice.  Whether you decide to stand up and fight at some point, or not.  Whether you are getting yourself ready in whatever way, or not.  Whether you want belt kit, or keep your PC and gunbelt.  

Now on the face of it, running around in the Alaskan back country might sound crazy, but, I'd rather die out there than in a concentration camp.  Whether or not the guy has .mil experience.  That all depends.  It's helpful, but in some cases not entirely necessary.  Sometimes you guys key in on the wrong things.  Lots of soldiers are worthless POS.  This guy is out there getting his Jerimiah Johnson on.  

Sometimes it's not so much about whether you're going to survive or not.  Sometimes it's choosing how you want to die.

Oh, and I went for a little yomp in a Diz rig and DG3/CF3 yesterday.  About 35 lbs all up.  Was cold as fuck but the load rode well.  

Originally Posted By Paulie771:


Is this offering from Snugpak similar to what you're talking about?

Originally Posted By ROCK6:

Well, to keep it related to the conversation I did spend some cold nights in some Ecuadorian jungle mountains

This is a funny comment because my I literally just repaired my son's Klymit Insulated Static V sleeping pad just a few weeks ago. He mobilized on the second of January and dumped some of this gear at the house that weekend prior. He said his sleeping pad went flat after a few hours and couldn't find any holes...but he froze his ass off.

I cleaned it up and used the soap to find any leaking bubbles; I found two small pin pricks and repaired them. While that could be done in the field, it wouldn't be easy or ideal.  

9 times out of 10 I would recommend a CCF pad; they're just more durable and reliable and leave one less thing to worry about when you're tired and just want to grab a couple hours of sleep. I would also recommend them for a jungle environment. If you have to sleep on the ground, you can tuck your mosquito netting under the pad which just helps seal off your sleeping environment a little better. Additionally, CCF pads are non-permeable, so if the ground is wet, it will also help keep you dry.

I've used some quality inflatible pads and those with a higher R-Value for colder temps. I've only had one failure on an older Therm-a-Rest that had a slow leak on one trip...which is when I decided to always just have some type of CCF, even a seat-pad. I still use them in colder temps where it's more of a recreational environment and even then, I still put a CCF pad under them.

My main staple, year-round, any environment is about six-sections of a folding Therm-a-Rest Z-Lite pad. I can fold up and put it in my pack or strap it under my pack or buttpack. Yeah, still bulky, but a worthy investment.

For a real compact combination, I just use a CCF seat pad and a Klymit Recon inflatable. It's just enough to give me a few hours of sleep in less ideal conditions and they take up little space. At worst, I can just sit on the pad wrapped in a space blanket or poncho with a tealight candle between my legs keeping me warm (aka Palmer Furnace). It works, it's not fun, but you won't die in freezing temps.

ROCK6

Originally Posted By Ex_Sanguine_Nation:


By 'features' he no doubt meant 'pockets'. I agree with you that the prospective owner is more fashion than field oriented but, hey, you spends yer money, you takes yer chances.

Originally Posted By Diz:
About the SMERSH rig.  OK, if you run an AK, and just have to have a buttpack, there you go, comrade.  However.  I wouldn't recommend wearing all black, and running around on the skyline.  But I get it, and who their target audience is, so...chto by ni.    

In terms of treating gunshot or other wounds.  I've heard this mantra about no medical support, so just "lay down and die" before.  While there is some truth to it, this is a very local thing.  I would treat a gunshot wound, the same way I would treat any other wound.  So maybe it would make more sense to call it a trauma kit, and leave it that.  If you do have a medic, then why should he not carry a medic kit.  Again, more about backwoods medicine, not necessarily gunshot wounds.  Also, and this depends totally on the local sit, but if you have at least a vet, you might have a fighting chance.  So, at what percentage do you want to say, it's worth taking a chance and treating it.  Yes, you are much more likely to die, but does that mean you don't even try?  

In terms of milita, self-defense, etc.  Some of you paint a very dark picture.  And again, there is some truth to that POV.  But for fucks sake, if you think your chances of survival are that slim, go to Vegas, get laid, and forget about it.  And again, this is going to totally depend on your local situation.  There are many people who actually know what they are doing, and there are many Walter Mitty's.  So that sorta depends.  Many actual threats out there, that may run over you before you're ready.  But I would also say that's a matter of proximity to the problem and is up to you to avoid those areas.  

We are way off-topic here (sorry Raf), but in a nutshell, after some sort of collapse, you are going to see an initial period where folks are hunkered down.  This might also be a time of equipping and training.  Then the scavengers are going to show up.  So even though it might be a very sharp period of OJT, folks will finally be getting their heads out of their asses.  There will be organizations that rise up and can fight the cartels.  Don't know the outcome but I do know this; I will go down fighting before I live in chains.  YMMV.

In terms of cold weather.  It sucks.  

In terms of shelter.  The Brit basha is king.  

In terms of comms, cans, and NVD's.  Some people will have them and know how to use them.  Others won't.

This is all a personal choice.  Whether you decide to stand up and fight at some point, or not.  Whether you are getting yourself ready in whatever way, or not.  Whether you want belt kit, or keep your PC and gunbelt.  

Now on the face of it, running around in the Alaskan back country might sound crazy, but, I'd rather die out there than in a concentration camp.  Whether or not the guy has .mil experience.  That all depends.  It's helpful, but in some cases not entirely necessary.  Sometimes you guys key in on the wrong things.  Lots of soldiers are worthless POS.  This guy is out there getting his Jerimiah Johnson on.  

Sometimes it's not so much about whether you're going to survive or not.  Sometimes it's choosing how you want to die.

Oh, and I went for a little yomp in a Diz rig and DG3/CF3 yesterday.  About 35 lbs all up.  Was cold as fuck but the load rode well.  

Originally Posted By ROCK6:

Jungle kit discussion can now resume

Originally Posted By TimeIsMoney:
I've seen a lot of his content over the years and never got the ex military vibe from him. Just a regular guy who likes to creep around and mess with old surp gear. Prepared Pathfinder visited him and they ran around in the woods for a couple of days. Never heard about the grizzley, although you would think that would happen as much as he hikes around.

Originally Posted By marnsdorff:


Has Bergmann ever claimed to be in the military or specifically any HSLD positions? .

Originally Posted By Diz:
Ok guys I went to Bragg today I talked to an 18-year SF vet, who has been my beta tester for the same amount of time.  We drilled down into this belt kit concept, concerning what exactly is your load out, and how do you intend to carry it.  Their current SOP is that no ruck may be heavier than 60 lbs.  They still have to carry all that mission essential kit, and figure out how to work in all the rest of their personal kit. Belt kits are also being explored as an alternative to PC and pistol belt load outs.  

So, what do we need to carry, and how do we intend on doing it.  Their answer is to explore the lightfighter concept, as a cross between military and bushcraft T,T,P's.  Of course if you don't have to carry mortar rounds, linked ammo, and batts, you might have a bit more wiggle room.  So at this point I'm going to break off from our military brethren and concentrate on a local self-defense force.  My thinking here is that we want to keep our rucks under 30 lbs, and the belt kit under 20, for a full load out of 50 lbs maximum.  So let's say we have a reconnaissance patrol that is pushing out our perimeter, to at least the next village or town.  We are planning on at least a 96 hour mission.
So what exactly do we carry.  Primary weapon and how many mags.  Secondary weapons(?) and how many mags.  Day/night optics.  Comms.  Medical.  Food and water.  Shelter and sleep systems.  Cleaning and tool kits.  Spare batts.  Spare/additional clothes.  

Ok, working from a belt kit, what are we going to carry there, then where else does everything need to go.  A small chest rig.  An assault pack.  Or some other-sized pack.  

When you look at like this, you determine what goes on the belt line, and where does the rest of the shit go.  So if you are thinking in terms of 3 or 4 sustainments, what exactly do you need in those sustainments; or even are they really sustainments.  Do things like blow out kits, and optics take precedence?   As far as ammo pouches.  How many rounds/mags per man, in how many ammo pouches.

That's the kicker right there.  When we talk about what we carried, and what the Brits carried (and even what Joe carried) we are talking about one point in time, and what was required, and when were they getting re-supplied.  So perhaps we need to dis-connect from what I carried, or Tom carried, or anybody else, and focus in on what we may need to carry.  I know that can potentially cause some butt-hurt, but needs to be addressed.   What exactly is your mission, and what do you need to carry it out.  

So if you do sort of a hybrid between Brit, and US (with a sprinkle of Italian) kit; what would it look like.  My buddy's suggestion, who is also a big fan of Brit kit (with lots of JJ's in his storage shed), is to examine what we really need to carry on the belt line, and what can go in your ruck.   And the key difference here, he pointed out, is that we're not being forced to drop rucks at any point, and make the final assault, or whatever; we are free to keep our rucks as long as we bloody well want to.  Especially if we have minimized snivel gear, and have rucks light enough to keep on us; not the big bloody Bergens that would probably have to be jettisoned.  

With this in mind, what goes on the beltline, and what goes in the ruck.  This is where the hybrid approach begins.  While using a Brit pattern, we are leaning into more of a US approach, in that mostly fighting kit is going on the beltline, and sustainment in the ruck.  Oh shit!  Yes, this is a departure from what many have done in the past, or, a return to what many others have done in the past.  He went on to suggest that in today's world you simply can't carry everything you need on the belt line anymore because we are now talking about comms, day/night optics, and even medical kits that were not in common use back when belt kits were last worn.  Yes, I know the Brits have attempted to cram it all in, but maybe there is another approach.  

If we go to ammo, smoke or frags (as available), medical kit, and water, how many pouches do we really need?  

Then, what is in the ruck.  Now we can add back in the sustainment items.  Brew kit, other rations, additional water.  Cook stove and heat tabs.  Comms.  Day/night optics.  Shelter?  Sleep system?  Clothing?  On these last 3, one suggestion that he had was to split up these items amongst a 4-man team.  Where you might be sleeping in two shifts, therefore only need one tent or basha, two ranger tacos, two sleep shirts, etc.  That way the load/bulk could be reduced considerably.  Maybe even get away with assault packs.  Yes it might suck a little.  But would be doable.  Going light and freezing at night.  Truly.  

So just to say, we've seen many comments on the belt kit, and what it needs to contain; here is one more opinion for your consideration.

Originally Posted By ATTom:


Diz-Please do not do the dumb four sustainment pouches. The canteens have to sit under the frame of the pack to support it correctly and four pouches is too wide.

My jj belt has a Four row molle pouch flanked by two 3 row molle pouches for canteens. I played with every combo of pouches known to man and that is what worked.  It Looks almost exactly what you came up with on the l/xl belt.

Butt packs push the canteens too far apart and do not properly support a rucksack. Even on their own they are far too floppy to support a rucksack.


The belt kit cannot be a standalone unit anymore- people carry too much shit they didn't carry 20 years ago.  To me it's not a daypack replacement - you have to put mags somewhere - on a plate carrier / on a belt or in a chest rig. Belt kit does that plus allows you enough sustainment to carry a ration and a IFAK without having it all festooned on a plate carrier.

I think you should have a poncho and a windshirt on the belt kit for rain gear and emergency shelter and a basha in your ruck for really sleeping under. Unless you're a Smurf - sleeping under a poncho length anything sucks.  Again most of the belt kit contents are - if I had to dump ruck - I could survive on it - I can - but that I would much rather use the stuff in my ruck.