Ben, I ended up with one of those.  It's not good quality.

I would stay away from those cheap, cadet grade kits Jarhead.   Try Kit Monster for good quality surplus at a fair price.

I use the same in my Jay Jay's. It works great.  Carries a full IFAK and slides right into the mag pouch w/o issue.

Oh yea, thanks for reminding me, I need to throw my scissors back into mine.  They got pulled out and stuck in an other kit.

Supposedly legit, if salty, sets available here for $61.50/set: https://www.armyandoutdoors.com/products/british-plce-webbing-set



ETA: Of course Ebay is always as option but it usually comes from across the pond w/ $50 shipping tacked on.

Awesome, thanks.  

I specifically am interested in the eagle made USMC pouches with the fastex buckles, but I have some of the pull the dot ones too.

We USED to be able to get sets here in the USA for $40 (though you'd need to add two more utility pouches, which were also available) but all those have dried up.  ALOT of the British surplus stuff have dried up here, it's all being given to Ukraine (and popping up for sale in Poland and Romania and such, funny that)

One of the problems with buying sets is that alot of the 'sets' come with random pouches, or not complete pouches - like 2 ammo pouches, 2 utility pouches, and a knife sheath, or something like that.  Then you'd have to piece together the other parts.

Having dabbled (quite heavily) in surplus belt stuff, including alot of PLCE stuff - I've probably got a couple dozen different sets of belt kit around, including various versions of PLCE stuff  (I'm going to be selling a bunch of them here sometime soon now that I'm making my own stuff) I've been around the block with this.

I'd do one of three things:

1. Keep an eye out on ebay for full sets.  You can see the exact set you are getting, making sure all the pouches are there.  And sometimes you can score one with the hippo pad, which is hard to get over here and getting harder to get over there.  I'm going to post an example link to one that's around $60 after shipping at the bottom.  Though most run from $80-120 after shipping.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166508872526

2.  I'd call kitmonster and tell them that you are looking for a dozen or whatever full sets of oldschool belt kit  (tell them what full sets mean, how many and what kind of pouches you want - and realize there are different size British belts) and ask them if they can put you together a package deal.  You might save enough on shipping by getting one big order like that.  Let them know you don't mind a mis-match of pouches (different camos, utility vs. water bottle pouches, etc.) as long as you have the 2 x sets of ammo pouches, 4 x utility, belt, and harness for each.  It doesn't look like they have much of the older PLCE stuff (which would be the only thing in your price range) in stock, but if you have a big order like that, they might be able to source it for you.  I'd also ask them about short back rucks / NI patrol packs if you want packs too.

3.  Piece your own together.  This might take time, but here's where to get some of them here in the USA:

Sportsman's Guide has Danish PLCE yokes and belts.  (the yokes are a really good deal, 3 packs of them)  Both are new.  Right now they are running a 15% off sale too.  

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/danish-military-surplus-load-bearing-suspenders-3-pack-new?a=2190648

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/danish-military-surplus-pistol-belt-new?a=2164719

Keep Shooting has at least 26 of the double PLCE mag pouches for a decent price.  (I'd order extra of the surplus pouches - an occasional one is worn out too much.  I've gotten everything from basically brand new to pretty worn.  However, I pieced together 5 full sets of oldschool PLCE gear and out of the 23 utility / canteen pouches I got, one was trashed and 2 were meh.  Technically serviceable still.  All the mag pouches were useable.)

https://www.keepshooting.com/checkout/cart/index/

Hessen Antiques have at least 50 of the PLCE canteen pouches in stock.  Note that these do not have the hangers on them, but the design they have makes it really easy to get 4" of webbing and a $0.23 ITW D-ring and sew a hanging ring on each pouch.  It'd take a minute or so to do each one.

https://hessenantique.com/british-army-canteen-with-dpm-camo-cover-used/

You could probably piece together a dozen complete sets doing this for $80 each.  About the same as you'll get decent full sets off of ebay already assembled.  But you can order them all at once.

Note that the Dutch, Danish, and Czechs all used PLCE gear or PLCE compatible gear (some of the Dutch stuff is MOLLE for instance)  There is a decent amount of Danish utility, LMG, harness, and belts on the market right now, but the pouches have been $$$$$.

Those will be coming from New Zealand and shipping is $$$$$$$$, even worse than england.  Plus they are missing a couple utility pouches.

I mean, grenade pouches are about the same size.  The USMC ones are cut a bit lower but also have adjustable buckles, unlike the others.

One of my piles of belt kit I've been playing around with.  These are the older DPM surplus PLCE sets (with Danish harnesses) I was talking about.  I skipped the issued belts and went and sewed up modern padded belts.  Cleaned the pouches, went in and fixed up a couple of them that needed something fixed on them  (sewed back on velcro, etc.).  Stripped all the extra attachment webbing, hardware, etc. off the pouches that I didn't need to significantly lighten the pouches.  Added hanging points to the pouches that didn't have them.  Then I went in and sewed the pouches directly to the padded belts along with running webbing through the main attachment points on the pouches, which is also sewed down between each pouch.  This firmly attaches the pouches to the belt, no flop at all.  

I modded the Danish harnesses with a removable extra set of front straps, so you can use it in the original 6 point or the modded 8 point harness.  And added sternum straps to the harnesses.  

I'm eventually going to sell them as it was an experiment and I was using it to get better at sewing, but this is a really good example of what you CAN do with the older belt kit if you are on a budget.  This is WAY better than any of the molle based belt kits I've messed with.  I'd take one of these over, say, a velocity set.  Though Diz's stuff is going to be nicer.

I've got a mis-match of other pouches - bunch of british molle utility pouches for instance - I'm probably going to be doing the same thing with all of those, once I go through and use all them for patterning ideas and such.  Turn them into sewn on belt kit and sell them.  Alot of the British molle pouches I got were brand new.  (I quite like the British surplus pouches btw, they are well built, overbuilt compared to ours)

@ben - you can also check here.  They don't have 12, but they have a few sets in stock, of the MTP camo pattern sets too, for $70.  BUT - that includes VAT  (VAT is the European sales tax basically).  Americans don't have to pay VAT, and that's about $12-13 off of each set, which would put them in under $60.  I don't know what shipping will be though.  It might be worth it to put in a large order, especially since they are listed as  'excellent' condition.  You could also ask them if they can source you more.  

https://www.nicks-kit.co.uk/issue-mtp-plce-webbing-10089-p.asp

Someone sells a frag pouch that's for a US frag but has a small rectangular slit to fit a Russian frag.

ETA
https://hwesta.eu/en/holds/4797-direct-action-frag-grenade-pouch-multicam.html

Now this, I am not an expert on.  The belt size is the big determination here.  The pouches are modular, so even if you got quad utility pouches, and they were too many, you could just take one off.  I only have one of the British belts (which I don't use) and I'm not sure which size it is, so that doesn't help.

According to the official webbing manual  ( link here ) the Small belts are listed as 28", Medium as 32", and Large as 35".  They aren't clear if this is total length of belt, or waist size.  I THINK it is total length of belt.  It lists total adjustment as 9", but it doesn't say if that is 9" MORE, or 9" each way, or 9" divided between more and less.

MY GUESS is that you would be a Medium, as it would be smaller than your waist size, but with even 4.5" of adjustment, it should adjust enough to go around your waist.  I would send an email or call them and tell them you are an American and tell them your ACTUAL WAIST SIZE.  Not your pants size.  If I had to order blindly though, I'd go with Medium.


EDIT:  This site lists the following for sizing:  Size (user waist): Small: 80-100cm, Medium: 90-110cm, Large: 100-120cm.

This site lists the following: Small - 26" - 30"    Medium - 30" - 34"    Large - 34" - 38"  (So it looks like the  '9" of adjustment'  is 9" divided between up and down?)

This Ebay listing says 'Size Small, ideally for 30-34" waist.'

Oh, that's a good idea.  I guess you could just pop a hole in the top of the pouch lid (reinforce it obviously) for the fuze.

The body of the Russian grenades seem to be narrower than the American ones, from diagrams, so the BODY of the grenades should fit in US pouches....

Euro sizes are usually stated in CM.  1 inch = 25.4 MM, and so 2.54 CM.  Shoe, and glove sizes can become confusing, and will definitely vary due to item country of origin/sale, and mfr's preferred measurement instructions/technique.

Euro Headware sizes seem to be measured by the Internal Circumference of the hat, measured in CM.  Measure your head size in CM, and you're GTG.  Or measure in Inches and convert to CM.

Foot and hand measurements are another thing where sizes can vary considerably.

NATO sizing only pertains to NATO items.  Civvy stuff can often vary from NATO sizing.  Suggest closely reading vendor's text, and an inquiry to the Mfr can prove useful.

If buying Euro items, strongly suggest using a fabric/cloth Metric tape measure to determine dimensions.  Tailors use cloth/fabric tapes because they are more exact than rigid measuring tools.  Besides, Metric measuring tools allow less chance for conversion mistakes.

You can also put on a belt then measure the worn length.

Yes, but measuring belt (or other things) requires doing it right.  Hence suggestion for Metric cloth tape measures.  Ask me how I know.

Plce belt sizes are 28"/32"/35" with 9" of adjustment. I Guess the mtp ones being issue material follow that pattern.

Have patience dealing with Nick, It Is a smaller old school surplus shop and he Is quite the character. Last couple of email he First said he was out drinking with Friends and to contact him next day. Next day he said It was his closing day and that his wife don't want him to work when the shop Is closed. .

That Is because there are no options to buy directly from the shop with shipping to Italy and i have to ask for a quotation each time. He had a beautiful One off olive belt kit with 3 snap closure Mag pouches on left side and the rest made of utility pouches for like 50/60$ that in the end i was not able to buy  due to this back and forth messages

On sizing, again remember the belt pad is from hip to hip, not all the way around.  So if you're say a 34" waist over the pants, from hip to back to hip, you're probably somewhere around 27", which is the sizing of the pad.  Then they usually have somewhere around 10"-12" of additional webbing to complete the circle.   Depends on the vendor, but some go by pad length, some go by total length, so just be aware.

Some of these sets are ok, but look a little crusty to me, especially the older DPM stuff.   That's why I would recommend Kit Monster, for current, new MTP at about 150 per set.  Maybe more than you want to spend, but if it's for your students, I'd want something that looks a little better than the Nigerian 69th Bicycle Bn (Rein).

Why would I be surprised he has had others ask for complete sets in bulk.   Yeah might get a deal.

Yea.  I've also seen that the pouches by themselves tend to be a little nicer condition than the pouches that are sold  'as a set'  (ie, with harness, belt, etc.)   - though the belts and harnesses I got via the sets, 2 of the belts were new and 1 of the harnesses was new.

I picked up a bunch of the pouches awhile back when I walked into a blowout sale + had discount codes that worked.  Ended up with enough pouches to technically build 7 full sets of gear.  After sorting all the pieces, 4 of the double ammo pouches were pretty worn out, a buddy of mine bought them off cheap along with one of the belts.  Out of the utility and canteen pouches, I ended up with enough to fill out 5 full sets of PLCE (4 utility / canteen pouches each) that were decent and useable.  Some were well faded from the sun, but the fabric was intact, the interior fabric was intact, all the stitching was intact, minus a few ripped velcros and such.  I had two more utility pouches that were USEABLE, but beat up a good bit.  I'm going to use them for something, maybe pouches to add to a NI Patrol Pack I have.  I have one more that beat up too much to use, but I'm going to use it to keep around for examples for sewing purposes.  The other 6 or so utility pouches I had were trashed.  Buddy of mine took 2 of them to put on a shortened ALICE belt with some other random pouches for his kids to play with.  

So yea, if you buy a bunch of pouches sight-unseen, you will get a weird assortment, ranging from  'this looks new, other than some british dude's name written on it in sharpie'  to  'wtf, why is there a fist sized hole in the bottom of the pouch and the attachments points look like my Husky got ahold of it as a playtoy?'  I'll take some pictures of the various condition pouches I got for examples.

EDIT:  Pictures of pouch conditions I got.  Click on the spoiler link below if interest.  There's alot of pictures.

Click To View Spoiler

I got the three pack.  Would be willing to mail the other 2 if people pay the shipping cost.

Nice.

Yeah and that's why if you are not familiar with the various patterns (or don't have an industrial machine), I'd say get a complete set from a reputable dealer.  The really old stuff has this funky pin and fork attachment system (although it did have web loops as well).  Then you saw webbing loops, and finally molle.  The closures had old school tab and bale (like M-14 pouches), then "Spanish" buckles, then velcro, and finally SR buckles.  Unless you have the capability to modify them, you might end up with a mis-mash of stuff.  

Somebody (cough Mansdorf cough) oughta buy up the old stuff and mod it up for those looking for inexpensive kit.  Bear in mind you probably won't get a hippo pad, but the old patrol belt.  But at least you can wear a ruck with it.  

Get a modified NI ruck from CAP6888 and you'd be set.

Slight revisit to the subtopic of medical pouch inserts, on one of my belt kits and my inner/outer belt (for use with full PC), I use a Tactical Tailor insert inside a TT 2x 20 round 7.62 NATO mag pouch. TQs are in separate pouches elsewhere on the kits, but everything else- NPA, Halo, gauze, 4" Izzy, tweezers, misc. bandages, decomp needle- fits within.

Already in the works.  I figured I'd start to pay for my increasingly expensive sewing hobby, so I decided to start using up all these pouches and such I've got around, and ran into a deal on a bunch of PLCE stuff.  I've got 5 sets done up like this I'm going to be putting up for sale at here soon.  I have to go in and trim loose thread ends and get paypal set up.

2 x double mag pouches, 4 x utility / canteen pouches on a modern, padded belt.  All the pouches inspected, cleaned, stripped clean of extra attachment hardware and such, significantly lightening them, a few small repairs (mostly sewing velcro back on, I reinforced a couple stitch lines, I think all of them were the ones on the lids.)  Belt made of 1000d cordura on the outside, UNlined cordura on the inside to allow it to breath.  New Danish yoke, modified to run as an 8 point OR a 6 point yoke, and modded with a sternum strap.  American Tex-69 bonded nylon thread, all the ends lock-stitched into place.  I overdid the stitching to make sure things are super strong.  These things should last basically forever.

One thing I learned doing this - NONE of the surplus pouches are sized the same.  

The DPM camo also meshes really well with US woodland camo.  The pouches are small enough that it's hard to tell it's not woodland from a distance if worn over woodland cammies.

The DZ rig is going to be nicer, but these are not bad.  They are going to come in significantly less than the DZ rig and will get someone started, let them see if they like the kit enough to up for something nicer.  They would also make great handouts for students / apocalypse buddies.

I've been looking hard recently - American supply of PLCE stuff has basically dried up, other than some random Danish pieces.  It's drying up in England too.  I think I found a supplier than can supply me a bulk order of pouches, but I need like $3k to do it.  If I do well with this first batch and there is enough demand, I might make that bulk order and fab up a couple dozen more sets.  

I've also got a bunch of British MTP MOLLE utility pouches and a few other random pouches I've collected while playing around with all of this stuff.  Got a half dozen British style belts I bought, and a few prototypes for ones I was doing for myself.  

I've been thinking about putting together complete sets using all these and selling them too.  I have a molle buttpack prototyped, I've got a few out in the wild with guys deployed overseas to give me feedback on for awhile now.  I'm probably going to do one more prototype, changing a few things they wanted changed, and make some of those to go with the above pouches and belts.

I just need some good multicam PLCE style ammo pouches with molle webbing to match them  *coughcough*  Diz / Crossfire *coughcough*

I'll probably have enough to do 5 or 6 sets of molle webbing.  I can sew the pouches on if they want too.  

If I get enough traction doing this, I might just start importing all the surplus PLCE stuff - older rigs, pouches, belts, packs and start selling those as surplus, specializing in belt kit, in addition to doing the odd sewed versions if people want.

Here's my insert from Varustrelaka.  It goes into a Velocity Systems mag pouch, with enough room to easily put a tourniquet or something in there.

Very cool dude!  I think it's a damn fine idea.  (Probably) hits a nice price point that guys who only use USGI surplus might be tempted to try out.  You would be a gateway drug to CF haha.

As we've said, try out a decent surplus set up and verify the concept.

Ok guys I went to Bragg today I talked to an 18-year SF vet, who has been my beta tester for the same amount of time.  We drilled down into this belt kit concept, concerning what exactly is your load out, and how do you intend to carry it.  Their current SOP is that no ruck may be heavier than 60 lbs.  They still have to carry all that mission essential kit, and figure out how to work in all the rest of their personal kit. Belt kits are also being explored as an alternative to PC and pistol belt load outs.  

So, what do we need to carry, and how do we intend on doing it.  Their answer is to explore the lightfighter concept, as a cross between military and bushcraft T,T,P's.  Of course if you don't have to carry mortar rounds, linked ammo, and batts, you might have a bit more wiggle room.  So at this point I'm going to break off from our military brethren and concentrate on a local self-defense force.  My thinking here is that we want to keep our rucks under 30 lbs, and the belt kit under 20, for a full load out of 50 lbs maximum.  So let's say we have a reconnaissance patrol that is pushing out our perimeter, to at least the next village or town.  We are planning on at least a 96 hour mission.
So what exactly do we carry.  Primary weapon and how many mags.  Secondary weapons(?) and how many mags.  Day/night optics.  Comms.  Medical.  Food and water.  Shelter and sleep systems.  Cleaning and tool kits.  Spare batts.  Spare/additional clothes.  

Ok, working from a belt kit, what are we going to carry there, then where else does everything need to go.  A small chest rig.  An assault pack.  Or some other-sized pack.  

When you look at like this, you determine what goes on the belt line, and where does the rest of the shit go.  So if you are thinking in terms of 3 or 4 sustainments, what exactly do you need in those sustainments; or even are they really sustainments.  Do things like blow out kits, and optics take precedence?   As far as ammo pouches.  How many rounds/mags per man, in how many ammo pouches.

That's the kicker right there.  When we talk about what we carried, and what the Brits carried (and even what Joe carried) we are talking about one point in time, and what was required, and when were they getting re-supplied.  So perhaps we need to dis-connect from what I carried, or Tom carried, or anybody else, and focus in on what we may need to carry.  I know that can potentially cause some butt-hurt, but needs to be addressed.   What exactly is your mission, and what do you need to carry it out.  

So if you do sort of a hybrid between Brit, and US (with a sprinkle of Italian) kit; what would it look like.  My buddy's suggestion, who is also a big fan of Brit kit (with lots of JJ's in his storage shed), is to examine what we really need to carry on the belt line, and what can go in your ruck.   And the key difference here, he pointed out, is that we're not being forced to drop rucks at any point, and make the final assault, or whatever; we are free to keep our rucks as long as we bloody well want to.  Especially if we have minimized snivel gear, and have rucks light enough to keep on us; not the big bloody Bergens that would probably have to be jettisoned.  

With this in mind, what goes on the beltline, and what goes in the ruck.  This is where the hybrid approach begins.  While using a Brit pattern, we are leaning into more of a US approach, in that mostly fighting kit is going on the beltline, and sustainment in the ruck.  Oh shit!  Yes, this is a departure from what many have done in the past, or, a return to what many others have done in the past.  He went on to suggest that in today's world you simply can't carry everything you need on the belt line anymore because we are now talking about comms, day/night optics, and even medical kits that were not in common use back when belt kits were last worn.  Yes, I know the Brits have attempted to cram it all in, but maybe there is another approach.  

If we go to ammo, smoke or frags (as available), medical kit, and water, how many pouches do we really need?  

Then, what is in the ruck.  Now we can add back in the sustainment items.  Brew kit, other rations, additional water.  Cook stove and heat tabs.  Comms.  Day/night optics.  Shelter?  Sleep system?  Clothing?  On these last 3, one suggestion that he had was to split up these items amongst a 4-man team.  Where you might be sleeping in two shifts, therefore only need one tent or basha, two ranger tacos, two sleep shirts, etc.  That way the load/bulk could be reduced considerably.  Maybe even get away with assault packs.  Yes it might suck a little.  But would be doable.  Going light and freezing at night.  Truly.  

So just to say, we've seen many comments on the belt kit, and what it needs to contain; here is one more opinion for your consideration.

Welp.  So I didn't see THIS coming.

Arktis is making a run of modernized Russian SMERSH belt kit for Kommandostore.

There goes my idea to obtain a set of SMERSH and make knockoffs of it now that it is unobtainium.  Oh well.  The AK guys are going to love this.  

https://kommandostore.com/products/smersh?_pos=1&_sid=fcc15c82c&_ss=r

I've noticed the number five popping up a lot lately. I don't remember what Youtuber it was, but went over to Sweden and he was interviewing one of their former mi,itary/now reservists and while describing his kit said he carried five magazines. Another Youtuber describing his kit he carried in Ukraine also said he carried five magazines - stating that 150 rounds is plenty to get you out of a situation. If you find this concept as sound, it is one way to shed 2-4 pounds.


Maybe not a popular idea, but a single NVG as opposed to duals could also shed some weight.


Keeping it under your 50/60 pound goal could be challenging - do you have an idea of duration? Three days? A week?


For a lightfighter setup...a lightfighter rig?

https://www.nixieworks.com/post/the-lightfighter-rig-explained

It always comes down to what do you foresee needing for your own situation. The old standard combat load was 5-6 spare (outside of the weapon) magazines, sure. However, I've seen some guys in UKR carrying double digits in spare mags, and if I were fighting an enemy known for human wave attacks and my supply lines were shaky, I'd probably want more than 200rnds on me, too. Of course, at this time, I am statistically unlikely to face even one enemy combatant, so a micro rig with 2 mags should suffice.

The hardest thing to do is be honest with ourselves.

Is it just me or does that not even seem possible, especially for any mos with an 18 in it.

If they cant put the weight in the ruck and have to carry it in a LBE system, the weight is still there now its just there all the time.

Question on the DZ rig, how many molle slots (whatever) under the removable pouches?

I love the concept, what's giving me fits though is I want a pistol somewhere near the hip, I want at least one pistol and rifle mag in a speed load set up, then still have 6 mags.  Going to one canteen might let me consolidate the other stuff that should be on the LBV.  And that's not addressing where to put comms?

There's been talk about this concept for decades now.





Since you are working with a local self-defense force - which the government just introduced a bill to make illegal to even train as - you are probably going to have a bunch of guys who are not professionals and who will have various levels of seriousness.

You might want to come up with a generic loadout that is used as SOP for all missions and tasks for these guys.  Who aren't going to always be serious enough to / even ABLE to change their gear around.  I'm guessing that is what you are doing, just using a recon patrol as an example mission.  Just wanted to throw that in though.





I'm going to say this ahead of time.  Since we are talking about some kind of local defense force....personally, I think any kind of non-mainline military unit personnel might be well-served by carrying a handgun and at least a couple magazine, along with an IWB / AIWB holster.  Just in case you need to ditch all your gear but want / need to keep a weapon on you.  So that you can enter a civilian area without looking all gunned up.







In this kind of thing, assault packs are almost useless.  Maybe something extremely minimal like a HPG Tarahumara - basically a glorified water bladder carrier with a little extra room for snivel stuff - that you can pull off your regular pack for whatever reason.  

Something like a patrol pack - the British NI Patrol Pack maybe - or bumping up to a Crossfire DG3 and the like would be the direction I'd look for your regular pack.  Big enough to carry basic winter gear or other bulky gear, but small enough to be able to cinch down and not be huge when needed.







Unless you are planning on stocking up on dozens of sets of kit, most of these local defense force volunteers aren't going to have a bunch of belt kit with appropriate stuff.  You are going to be lucky if half of them show up with any decent gear at all.  Most will probably have civilian backpacks for instance.  But we are talking about belt kit equipped guys, gear dedicated to them.  So here goes.





I'd also include a rain poncho and a minimalist, emergency supply of food on the belt kit.  Also, since you are going more minimalist with little or no sustainment gear, I'd include a knife on the belt kit.  So that you could DIY shelter and such in an emergency.  Plus poke things as needed.

As for number of pouches, again, this is one of those things - if you aren't stockpiling matching gear for everyone, they will have whatever they have / can acquire.  So let's run with you have successfully stockpiled 4 sets of belt kit for everyone.  They will probably be the easiest, cheapest available stuff - surplus PLCE, a set of ALICE gear, a SMERSH, that covers almost all of the cheaper rigs.  Next up would be your Crossfire rig.    So you are going to get what you get with those kits.

Next, you are going to want that shelf across the back of the kit for the backpack to ride on top of.  Which means 3 or 4 utility pouches or 2 canteen and a buttpack.  Filled enough to make a shelf.  So you are going to have to plan to fill all those pouches.

Now, if you ARE running something more minimalist - your Crossfire rig maybe - you can cut that down.




You are going to have serious trouble trying to talk alot of these guys into not taking heavier sleep gear and not freezing at night.  

Also realize that whatever alot of these guys are carrying, odds are it's going to be bulkier than the stuff we are used to.  Using whatever they have available.  I don't think you are going to be able to get away with an assault pack - nor should we - for local defense force foot patrols.  Again - you are going to have to deal with whatever gear they have.  And if you stockpile and provide the gear for them, it gets expensive giving them multiple packs.  A patrol sized pack - medium ALICE, NI PAtrol Pack, etc. would be what I would aim for.  Small enough to cinch down for minimal stuff, but big enough they CAN carry more if needed.  These guys are probably only getting one backpack.  And you need to factor in possible winter operations and the extra gear that will require - and the extra backpack space to carry it.


So how about we do it this way.  Looking at the optimal loadout.  What do we NEED to carry.  Let's plan as if we do not have a base of fire weapon (belt fed, etc.) to feed (and carry ammo for) and that we are NOT expecting enemy contact....what is the absolute minimum stuff you need to carry, regardless of where it goes - body, uniform, belt kit, pack.....

Rifle w/ magazine
6 x extra 30 round magazines   (this would get bumped up if you had a real threat possibility)
2 x 1 quart canteens w/ 25+ water purification tablets
Lightweight Poncho w/ kevlar / spectra cordage
Minimalist firearms cleaning kit w/ cleaning rod
Knife
Emergency Rations (even a bag of hard candy if nothing else)
3-4 days Rations  (you said 96 hours - 4 days)
Emergency / E&E Kit
Compass
Minimalist IFAK
Small Pad of Paper
Pencil
Pair Mechanix Gloves
Eye Pro
Foam Ear Pro Inserts

I'm probably missing a thing or two.  

But there's the minimum you'd want each guys to have.  Other than the rations, you could carry it on your belt kit or on your body.  

For the pack, I'd look at a minimalist patrol pack.  NI Patrol Pack / Medium Alice.  I'd probably add a couple more quarts of water, change or two of socks, some kind of sleep gear - poncho liner / sleeping bag.  

Again, I'm probably forgetting some stuff here.

I bet if you added up all the above, you will be close to your total weight already.

This isn't counting what specialty items you might have available - night vision, radios, frags / smokes, belt fed to feed, etc.  Plus batteries to feed those.

The last 20 years of combat the USA has been involved with, the vast majority was not against near-peer enemies and you would have fire support, reinforcements, resupply, etc.

I have a feeling that would be going away quickly in the next war.  And if you end up fighting anyone as a local defense force, there are good odds they will be a dominant force and the one with support, resupply, etc.

Local defense force probably won't have alot of comms.  

And look at Ukraine - if you have a modern military opposing you, or even larger organized groups like cartels, you are going to have serious issues using comms at all.

All you "travel light freeze at night" guys with experience...

Please tell me how you plan to survive the current weather.   -9 with a -30 windchill.

Our whole week is negative single digits this week with highs around 0-5.

Sure,  I could pack something like a Kifaru woobie (or other climashield-based blanket) instead of a sleeping bag.  But at the least I'd want a dry set of level 2 gear as a layer.

TIA

Edit, for perspective:
Battle of the Bulge, temps to -4

Chosen Reservoir,  -25 temps

And honestly,  maybe better off as a separate thread?

Well yes the conversation we had was a real eye-opener for me.  They are pivoting away from the G-WOT, and looking at what their next missions might look like.  One thing that is being re-examined is load bearing equipment.  He was very interested in getting his hands on a Diz rig and seeing how that works with his CF rucks.  I told him several guys mentioned how they wanted the 4-pouch layout, but he actually preferred the 3-pouch.  His thinking is the fighting load out goes on the belt, and his brew kit and so forth can go in his ruck.  It's small enough that he doesn't have to shit-can it (he loves the CF2 BTW) so it's no big deal to him.  

That really got me thinking.  Because if you take the Brit technique of dropping all the pouches down to integrate with the ruck, but use the US technique of keeping the weight down to fighting load out, you are combining the best from both worlds into a new technique that might actually be optimized for what we're doing.

I must admit, this was a new concept for me, but, at the same time, made a lot of sense.  So I wanted to share that with everybody here.

Yes, the Lightfighter concept has been around for a long time, but perhaps it's finally time to implement it.  And as very light infantry (no mortars, rockets, or belt feds), we should be able to pull something like this off, and still be reasonably comfortable.   You have a very basic load out every man carries, but then you have team gear that is split up amongst the group.  One basha per buddy team; one poncho and liner (or light sleeping bag); one cook stove;  one MNVD.  Then you have one radio per 4-man team; one medical pack; one GPS, one can, and so forth.  

The basic load for individual might look like:

Rifle, with sling and RDS.
Belt kit
7 mags with 210 rds
Cleaning/tool kit
2 x 1-qt canteens w/ cups
IFAK
Small rucksack
Extra clothing  per season
Spare socks and foot powder
2-3L water bladder
Food for duration of mission
Small medical kit
E&E kit

Buddy team kit:

Basha (or) poncho and liner
Cook stove  (or) extra fuel
MNVD  (or) binos

Team kit:

Point:
Compass
Suppressor
Ghillie hood

Tm Ldr:
Map & Compass
GPS
Notebooks and cheat sheets
model making kit (for mission briefings)

Radioman:
Radio, w/ jungle antennae, spare batts

Medic:
Medic bag

I think the Nixie works concept is very much in step with this.  The only difference between them and CF is we use various sized rucks to carry additional kit, vs a fixed buttpack.  The amount of pouches on your beltline is totally up to you.  However, I would submit that 7 pouches (4 "ammo", plus 3 "sustainments") is actually a pretty good set up. But if you need/want 8, we will probably build that as well.  

As far as cold weather, the idea is that the buddy team could split up the sleep system, whatever that might be, because one is on stag, while the other sleeps or does admin.  So a proper cold weather sleep system could still be carried, just one complete system between two guys.  So each guy carries a bag, that are combined together, or one bag and one bivy cover, etc.

Even if the team only carried 3 sleep systems, with one guy on stag, it's still some weight savings.  

If you actually needed a tent, then again it is split up between two guys.  Or a team tent split up between all 4 guys (that only needs to fit 3, right?).  

More food, cook stoves, and fuel.

Obviously, a larger pack is required.

You won't be comfortable all the time, but enough to stay operational.  

And I'm not saying it won't suck, but it's doable.

We worked with the Swedes a couple of years ago in developing a tent for reconnaissance work up on the Russian border, so I get it, sometimes it's so cold you gotta have full kit for everybody.  They could only stay on cold routine for a day or so before guys had to rotate to warming tents in the rear.  But most of us are below the arctic circle.

In a general sense i am a firm believer of the SAS pyramid i first saw when i was young in Lofty Wiseman Sas survival book



kit is only a marginal part, the rest can't be bought and has to be learned by being in the field practising.

Want to split kit between a team? You have to have a team, with TTPs. It takes field time.
Want to "pack light, freeze at night"? It takes mental toughness that is developed by training in the field.

I am the first to admit that after 15 years of normal 9 to 5 life (living in a country village, so lot of outdoor activity) i am no longer confident i can easily live in the field with less than two MREs and two liters of water per day, sleeping over half a foam mat that covers only the torso, wrapped in a poncho liner with goretex trousers on as i used to do.

I just got back from the yearly commemorative march on the path that a SAS team made where i live in a operation in 1944 (Operation Pomegranate if you want to check). 3 days, 75 kilometers, with packs, in the woods, sleeping in rural houses.
Dang, this year it got old fast.

20 years ago my gear in Iraq was the following;

PASGT vest and K pot
LBV with belt
2-1 quart canteens (two cups and one stove)
2-200 round SAW pouches
2 frags
Buttpack with poncho/liner, spare socks, MRE, trioxane bars
Camelbak (actually a Blackhawk version)
CLS bag
M40 gas mask
SAW and spare barrel bag.
AT4

Medium Alice with;
2-200 round SAW drums
MOPP suit
Spare uniform (DCUs, socks, drawers)
MSS bivy bag
3 MREs
Wet weather tops and bottoms
Basic hygiene stuff

As a combat engineer unit, we didn’t move much farther than a few miles without just loading up onto trucks. So there’s that. Back then we thought we our load out was fairly easy. I’m sure now, it be moving wayyy slower if at all carrying all that.

With the LBV strapped into the PASGT, while it seemed heavy to just pick it up, when wearing it, it was comfortable. I believe the difference is “wearing” the weight instead of carrying it.  I think that’s the difference with PLCE. You “wear” the weight more than carry it. My current PLCE loaded is 25 pounds, but wearing it, you hardly notice it.i can easily operate with just that for 24 hours plus.  Add in a camelbak and some extra food, I could go 48-72 hours.  Weather is the limiting factor.  I could do those time frames from spring through early fall.  Once the temps drop, you have to add a pack for snivel gear and a sleep system (sleeping bag, not Ranger roll). Seeing as I won’t be carrying a belt fed or AT4 anymore, that weight savings helps to allow for other gear allowances.  For a “civilian defense force” staying under 60 pounds is fairly easy. No fancy weapons or equipment to make up weight.  Hot swapping sleeping systems is definitely a way to help share weight. If recon or knowledge of the AO allows for places to access water, you can cut down water weight.  Although I would like to still step off with 4 liters for a 96 hour op.  Just in case.

Joe said it best, knowledge trumps equipment.  You can improvise a lot of things in the field so you don’t have to pack “luxury” items. Although as we get older, some of those luxury items will pay in dividends.  I’m gonna have to bring an inflatable sleeping pad nowadays. If I sleep on a half inch foam pad, I’m gonna be useless the next day.

I almost brought up current weather.  I kinda hinted at it above in my response.  

I live in the mountains.  Sure, we normally have decent weather, but 6 months out of the year, temps drop into the 50's at night or less.  Even here in the NC mountains, I get negative 0 temps overnight at at least once, almost every year.  Lowest I've seen at my house was -23F, with 30 mph winds.  For 3 nights in a row.  Which is dang cold for the SE.  You don't survive that kind of weather without serious winter gear or some decent gear, shelter, and a fire.

You can just say  'well don't be out in that stuff'.  Sure.  Easy to say.  However - if you HAVE to get out there....plus the concept of this exercise was patrolling.  There is obviously a reason you are patrolling, so if YOU aren't doing it, maybe the badguys are.  

Also, this concept was pitched as a local defense force.  Again - if you are having to actively patrol as a local defense force, odds are you aren't getting accurate weather reports.  Or maybe none at all.  EVERYTHING is going to be different if you are forced to have your local community defense force activated.  Look at the weather here - the last few days have been hovering right around freezing.  We finally got snow yesterday, 3-5 inches worth, with a mix of rain and sleet coming with it, but the temps stayed just below freezing.  It was wet and slushy out, really nasty stuff to be out in for extended periods if you aren't prepared for it.  However, under cover, it wasn't THAT bad off - I was out with the dog on the front porch last night around midnight in a pair of shorts and a couple long sleeve shirts.  But today, it's supposed to drop all day to bottom out in the lower single digits with 16 mph winds .  

If you are out patrolling over the last few days, and you aren't carrying actual winter gear, yesterday was going to have sucked, mobility would have dropped significantly  -  still is today, the snow is a crusty, slushy mix out there right now, with the sun out but it being around 20F - and tonight will be a killer if you try to get by without winter gear or a serious fire.




I agree, but to play devil's advocate, we wouldn't have the attention of so many people and this thread IS about re-considering the idea of load-carrying.

1.  Cut out one of the canteen cups.  You don't NEED two of them.  That weight would be better served elsewhere.

2.  Each person should have a poncho, minimum.  Even if no poncho liner.  It doubles as rain gear, shelter, and extra sleeping layer.  Everyone NEEDS a rain gear layer.

If you get a modern poncho, made of modern materials, and a modern poncho liner - well, mine is 25 years old, but it's one of the special run of poncho liners Brigade Quartermaster made back in the day with thinsulate insulation instead of poly batting.  Warmer, lighter, and packs significantly smaller.  I can EASILY fit both the poncho and poncho liner in my buttpack with about half the pack's space left.  I should pull them out, but I'm pretty sure I can fit both into a single surplus PLCE utility pouch.  I know I can fit one of the two into the pouch by itself.

That weight and space is worth each person carrying.  It gives you rain gear and a minimum of insulation for emergencies / sleeping / really bad weather.

3.  Everyone should have a compass and basic map.  Even if just a minimalist compass and a general map of the area.

4.  Medic bag - I'm going to be brutally honest here.  If you are down to running community defense patrols, odds are that you will not have modern medical care, much less evac, available.  Even if you CAN break contact as a small and get your wounded bro and are able to E&E back to your main basecamp / community / whatever with the wounded dude, the odds that you will have modern medical care, or for alot of these groups, ANY care more than basic stuff, is really slim.  We are not talking about a modern military unit.

I'm not saying don't take a medic bag, or even IFAK's.  I'm saying that they can be minimal.  You and your group might have trained medics and doctors back at base, but your average local community isn't going to have that.  The best most of them can hope for is a nurse or something that's back at base.  Just food for thought.

5.  Same with suppressors and NVG.  Odds are these groups won't have them, especially suppressors.  You are going to be lucky if your groups ends up with a few baofang radios.  But I get the idea.

6.  I like some of the stuff Nixieworks is doing, I've been eying his stuff since it came out.  However, the idea that I'm stuck carrying everything in a big buttpack and that buttpack totally destroys my ability to carry any pack other than a tiny assault pack?  Naw.