Hey now, my buttpacks resemble that!  lol.

*takes the road un-walked - combines the power of British belt kit with the power of American giga-buttpacks*

I believe it. The DZ Rig was designed from the ground up to be what it is.

I wish it had been out a while ago, I was out with my boys goofing in the woods this weekend and I *hate* CamelBaks but it’s what I have. I’d rather get that off my back when it’s hot and humid.

Well, yeah lots to unpack here.  Yeah, having stuff on the hips trumps wearing shit on your back, especially in hot humid weather.  Sometimes a good belt kit is much better than any kind of assault or 3-day pack, as has become std these days.

Sinister got it right; those are gold std in sewing techniques, and materials, which apply directly to load-bearing equipment.  

As to belt width.  Oh yeah BTDT.  I spent much time in the bush with a 3" belt, both padded and un-padded.  This is basically the US std, which many use as a guide.  Now I will say, they do work.  If the vast majority of time is spent patrolling (as opposed to kicking in doors and so forth), then you're not going to bitch about the occasional bounce.   But that's not to say it can't be improved.   The whole point to the hippo, especially with sewn-in pouches, is to provide a solid base, which not only prevents this bounce, but is actually quite comfortable on patrol.  The trick is to find materials, which will not be any more uncomfortable than the pouches themselves, and the stretch goal would be a base that wicks away moisture and dries quickly.  That is why CF uses the sandwich with an un-coated inner layer that wicks moisture, an open cell layer it soaks into, and a closed-cell layer up against the pouches for support.  Followed by the outer, coated layer.  In other words, the same system as used on their packs.

So yeah, this IS the most comfortable rig I've ever worn.  Side note.  Was out rucking the other day and (re-)realized the difference between an ALICE and a CF2/3.  When the pain comes on (and it will) it's a matter of how much the system mitigates that, vs aggravates that.  Samey, samey on the belt kit.  The goal here is to make what can be unbearable, into something more bearable.  For those that know, there is suck, and then there is SUCK.  With CF kit, I can tolerate it and drive on much better than my old issue kit.  And that is the whole point to this affair.

On pouches.  Well we've spent a couple(?!) of pages on this.  I've gone over what I've done on them; lots of guys do different stuff.  

On pouch placement.  Yeah, and here you're getting right back into US philosophy, vs Brit kit.  Wearing pouches back by the hips, vs wrapping them around.  I know what I prefer, but there are other ways.  

And finally buttpacks.  Hoo boy.  Joes just love their buttpacks; Tommies, not so much.

Getting back to "essential" books, the much-recommended Poynter book has two editions, which appear to be different.

None of these books are cheap, so can those who understand the difference please specify which edition is preferable?

@Diz  @marnsdorff  

IMHO, the "wider" waist belts generally prevent attached pouch "flopping" which is always desirable.  As an aside, we are assuming a PALS-type platform, or a directly sewn pouch-to-platform in this instance, not to mention the attachments of the pouches to the shoulder harness.

Most ALICE rigs had shoulder straps attached to tops of mag pouches and top of Butt Pack.  Not all that bad, once considered.  Unfortunately, canteens and other items were not adequately secured.  "Nuff said".

OTOH, such "wider" belts are more prone to "trap" heat/sweat.  It's up to the "wider" belt mfr to seek ways/materials for dissipating heat/sweat.

I've tried--hard--to make the ALICE gear system "forward-compatible" with MOLLE items, and I've had some limited success.

As far as waist belts go, the common GI Pistol belt, even with a padded insert, is generally NOT acceptable compared to much wider waistbelts.  Too narrow to prevent "flopping" of attached items.  One can "custom-sew" things to suit.  Doing so may be useful as far as obtaining sewing knowledge, but there comes a point where the "juice is not worth the squeeze", so to speak.

Just my opinion, and others will disagree.

I have heard the 1st edition is better if I remember right?  I might be wrong.

And yes, they are very expensive, which is why I don't have one.

You can sew the mag pouches and buttpack directly to a thinnish wide padded British style belt.  Look at the SORD belt for an idea what I'm talking about.  The canteen pouches however don't lend well to sewing directly to the belt, though you can do it.

The oldschool, belt mounted PLCE pouches do well doing this too.

You could throw a couple PLCE utility pouches on the ALICE gear to use as water bottle pouches, next to the buttpack too.

It's easy enough doing a basic flat belt like the SORD style one if you are careful and don't overcomplicate it.

Oh yeah believe me, I have de-constructed ALICE gear about as far as you can go, and tried to re-assemble it, more Brit-style.  Initially, I was using 1 3/4" Ty 7 or 13 parachute harness webbing for loops to attach pouches to a 3" patrol belt.  These extra loops behind the belt actually acted as a semi-belt pad.  Then all sorts of patrol harnesses, from "STABO" style to LBV.  And yes, you did get a lot of bounce from this, especially the GI canteen pouches.  

Then when molle hit, I pivoted that way, starting with 3" belts, and working my way up.  Ideally, you wanted 3 rows of molle on the sides (6" pouches) and 4 row molle on back (8" pouches) to get good attachment without a lot of bounce.  Jay Jays had one of the best all-molle bases with this.  And a really good yoke as well.  

Ultimately I ended up with an 8" hippo belt, with sewn-in sustainments.

On the parachute manuals.  I wouldn't get too hung up on Poynters, if it's hard to get and expensive these days.  It's really cool if you're into the early days of jumping and jump nostalgia, but not totally necessary.  Not sure about editions, but you want Vol 1., as Vol 2 concerns mostly parachute-type stuff.  The newer FAA approved manuals are just as good, for our purposes.  I think Sandy Reid did the first one after Poynter, and covers all the same material.  BTW Sandy was a Vietnam era Recon Marine and all-around badass.  I was privileged to jump with him back in the day.  And I jumped his Riggng Innovations rig as well.  They were custom-made for the Navy Leap Frogs and I got a hand-me-down from one of the guys.  Anyways, don't get too hung on any one manual; just get one of them.

2005 color version of FAA "Parachute Riggers Handbook" available for free on Internet Archive HERE

Downloadable 2015 color version of FAA "Parachute Riggers Handbook, Change 1" available for free on FAA site: HERE

I won't be getting rid of my old Fireforce butt pack, but since I started using the Diz rig, this old disco tune keeps playing in my head.  "Ain't gonna bump, no more, with no big fat butt pack"

Yea I still have a full MOLLE setup, including a fireforce buttpack.  That was the one I pieced together at the beginning of this whole journey.

I'm still doing buttpacks on my stuff, but they are sewn in, they don't move around as much.

You fuckers; I can't get that song out of my head now.

On the manuals, the '05 version looks to be a more refined version of Ponynter's manual; perhaps better organized, or rather codified from the original.  The typical materials, machines, and techniques used to repair parachutes are shown and you can interpolate from there.  The '15 manual deals more with actual parachute stuff.  

Back when I apprenticed under a Master Parachute Rigger (and DPRE) it was wilder and woolier than today.  I think when Sandy Reid took over as "senior head of state" for parachuting, for the FAA, things rapidly changed.  And arguably for the better.  Although guys like me appreciated Ponyter's Tounge in cheek approach, it was dated, and needed serious up-dating.  Along with the rampant drug use at the DZ's, back in those days.  Many a DZ was eventually shut down because the allure of using their capabilities to smuggle drugs was just too great.  The guy I apprenticed under was a certified pilot and often did jump runs for the local DZ.  He was approached to haul drugs and admitted it was tempting.

Not bad. I'd still take my DZ rig and the awesome hippo belt.

It's cool that M81 has made a large comeback.

Blame yourself, pal...it's your creation that made it jump into mine in the first place!  

Check this out...you have become the standard the cadets fail to achieve. Poor man's DZ Rig

What 3 inch belt did you have? Alice is 2 1/4" but I've heard it refereed to as a 2 1/2.

I was mixing up both 2 1/2" and 3" belts.  Old age.  Initially I modified 2 1/2" GI belts, and then went to 3" padded molle belts.

Which 3" molle belt? The one that comes with the FLC?

Not to divert away from the all-important discussion of which 3" padded belt Diz used  (ATS I think he mentioned?  Mighta been someone else?)  I might have a camera set up and might be recording a test video tonight.

Yeah initially I used an ATS belt, but quickly made my own.  In 3", 4", 5" and 6".  Then I got the Jay Jays belt for awhile, and went up to an 8".   At least for sewn on pouches.  If I made a molle base, I'd be tempted to go back to 6" and see how it worked.  

I know a lot of my work is skewed towards really hot, humid places.  I plan on fixing that up here.

Very cool. I have neither the time, nor the tools, nor the skills to do what you do, but I always find it enjoyable to see folks taking pride in their work and showing others how things are done.

We desperately need people to learn to sew in this country.  (along with a bunch of other skills)  

Once trade with China breaks down, we are going to be FORCED to start doing things like manufacturing clothing and such again.  And there is no skilled labor pool.  And it takes 6 months to a year or more of full time sewing to get someone up to a halfway decent capability.  I'm really intelligent and learn easily on my own, but it took me 6 months of full time sewing to get to the point where I was comfortable making something for someone else.  I'm still a little slow, and I've been doing this for about 2 years now.  We desperately need a pool of people who can quickly ramp up sewing.

So I am TOTALLY ok with teaching others to sew.  Even if you just pick it up as a spare time hobby, you will learn the core skills you need and get comfortable with a machine.  Heck, if you got kids - 10+ years old - get them started young.  They will pick it up faster.  A person who is skilled at sewing can make a surprisingly decent hourly rate at a sewing shop.  Having your kid know how to sew and get a good job straight out of highschool making WAY more than they'd make anywhere else......

I'm in a weird place where it's humid, can be hot, but is somewhere in between usually....mixed with the ability to drop to -20F at night.

Ok.  Let the hate flow guys.  

(Please excuse the really crappy camera and lighting.  My budget for video making is basically zero.

LOL, Richard.

I was merely wondering which GI belt it was so I could track it down as a useful cheap surplus object.

I'm just messing.  Your question was totally valid and more important than my video stuff, I'm just a giant goofball most of the time.

OK, setting aside camera/lighting issues (I've seen much worse vids) but there is room for improvement.

Strongly suggest that you establish clearly labeled "Tiers" of sewist experience for vids which "tiers" you can maintain throughout the progression of your vids.

Keep individual vids about 15 minutes.  This is tough, but always link subsequent vids.

Make a "Script" and practice doing the vid beforehand.  Nothing destroys confidence in vid maker as much as his/her "fumbling" on-screen.   A "certain" amount of "fumbling/misspeaking is "occasionally" tolerable, but beyond a "certain" point becomes destructive to credibility of vid maker.  You may not be able to afford proper lighting and cams, but you certainly can write a script and practice your vids beforehand.  

For Example, "Tier 1" might be properly "hand-sewing" some items, using needle, decent thimble, and proper thread.  Suggest that this will "accommodate" 80% of sewists, so make sure it's done right--this is the foundation of your internet reputation.  Include other "hand-sewn" projects here.

"Tier 2" Might be folks using common sewing "Awls" and how to use them with proper thread/needles.  This accommodates a significant number of "sewists" and further augments your reputation.

Further "Tiers" can include various types of sewing machines, and how they are operated.

IMHO, you should positively avoid--and proactively defer-- user comments on the faults of their sewing machines.  This is an endless rabbit hole that detracts from your primary mission.

Find respectable sites to which you can refer folks with malfunctioning sewing machines and give references.  Your job is done.

OK, setting aside camera/lighting issues (I've seen much worse vids) but there is room for improvement.

Strongly suggest that you establish clearly labeled "Tiers" of sewist experience for vids which "tiers" you can maintain throughout the progression of your vids.

Keep individual vids about 15 minutes.  This is tough, but always link subsequent vids.

Make a "Script" and practice doing the vid beforehand.  Nothing destroys confidence in vid maker as much as his/her "fumbling" on-screen.   A "certain" amount of "fumbling/misspeaking is "occasionally" tolerable, but beyond a "certain" point becomes destructive to credibility of vid maker.  You may not be able to afford proper lighting and cams, but you certainly can write a script and practice your vids beforehand.  

For Example, "Tier 1" might be properly "hand-sewing" some items, using needle, decent thimble, and proper thread.  Suggest that this will "accommodate" 80% of sewists, so make sure it's done right--this is the foundation of your internet reputation.  Include other "hand-sewn" projects here.

"Tier 2" Might be folks using common sewing "Awls" and how to use them with proper thread/needles.  This accommodates a significant number of "sewists" and further augments your reputation.

Further "Tiers" can include various types of sewing machines, and how they are operated.

IMHO, you should positively avoid--and proactively defer-- user comments on the faults of their sewing machines.  This is an endless rabbit hole that detracts from your primary mission.

Find respectable sites to which you can refer folks with malfunctioning sewing machines and give references.  Your job is done.

@marmsdorf

Bill Shum from 8492 nylon woks quote
"Reject laminate, embrace fabrics and webbings.

JK JK We've been using laminate for a few years but now we realized that while they are awesome they do have their drawbacks and it's why we are going back to fabrics/webbing on some of the newer products.

1. They are expensive as shit, laminate are essentially two pieces of fabrics glued together in a bonding machine. 2x the fabrics, 3x the labor, 4x the price

2. They are not as durable. They cant handle the same abuse as fabric/webbings and they do delaminate with use. At first we thought it's our laser but we have research gears from reputable brands and they all have the same thing happening after a while.

3. You will need a really good laser set up to do mass cutting, we only have one machine right now and it's not even the best one.

4. Very low margin of error. Your laminate had to sit really flat and the height has to be just right for them to cut perfectly. If you are lucky you might be able to do another pass but most of the time if you mess up you have to trash that piece.

Laminate is a game changer but after using it for a couple years we have come to the conclusion that it is primarily made for large company looking to pump out a lot of gear in a short amount of time if they are willing to trade cost and durability."

Laminate stuff DOES have some very specific purposes that it works great in.  I ran into one of them recently - I had a customer want me to make him a set of mag pouches similar to these, but set up to ride horizontal on his belt, not vertical.  No one made one like that, so I made him a pair.  I quickly learned that the laminate fabrics worked way better for the odd shape - see how the pouch went from narrow to wide as it wrapped around the bottom?  Then straightened out as it came back up the top?  It was a pain making it work with webbing  (I mean, it was easy enough, but it took alot of extra steps - and that elastic is going to wear out long before the laminate.  

It has it's place, but it's for very specific projects.

Well first, thanks for taking care of our buddy here.  He's been a good beta-tester for CF.  

On laminates, this would appear to be the case; they don't stand up to hard use in field conditions.  I think the G-WOT has skewed many people's ideas about load bearing equipment.  First of all, we had this light weight initiative, which traded durability for decreased weight.  While this may work fine for those with unlimited budgets, not so much for the rest of us.  Then you have the actual durability issues.  Not only with materials but also techniques.  I have seen off-shore made stuff for high end companies, who should know better.  Pouches made with one whole stitch line.  So this may also be a contributing factor.  

I think ONE answer may be to combine cordura with webbing reinforcement.  That way you keep all those layers out of the seams.  And it doesn't fall apart.

If you do laminate, I think sewing reinforcement might be a very good idea.  Which some might say defeats the whole purpose of this material/technique.

Another thing is laminates have been combined with elastic to make this very popular style of pouch.  And while it may have it's place, I think blindly copying this in all sorts of apps is what leads to failures like we've seen.  It's one thing to be used in an urban CQB app; it's quite another to be used in a wet jungle rotation.  Or perhaps in most any harsh field environment.  Especially where you may be staying out for a few days.  

I think this laminate technique can be easily accomplished by merely "laminating" your own version of this with your own materials, and Scotch 77 spray adhesive.  Which of course you would then sew up in the normal manner.  Any "de-lam" would then be irrelevant.  And you are triple stitching those seams, right?  

I experimented with this technique on a rifleman's jacket I made back in the day.  Carried forward, this might be a viable technique to combine the low NIR signature of rip-stop cammo, with the strength of cordura.

I can see these pouches being useful in specific situations - personal security details, direct action 'SWAT' style teams, etc.  Like you said, the urban CQB stuff.  I wouldn't want to use one of these pouches running around out here in the Appalachian mountains in the woods, that's for sure.

One thing I've done with my gear is that I build everything so that it will last.  I probably overdo it.  The way I see it is that if you are buying something from me, you are either some civilian who this might be the last piece of gear you are getting if you actually end up needing to use it....or you are some military guy who is abusing it hard in the jungle or some other adverse setting.

I'd rather my gear weight a couple ounces more and not fall apart on me.

Alot of my gear re-designs have been cutting some of the overbuilding of various parts of the gear.

Yeah we are (re) learning this lesson.  We built bomb-proof for awhile, then light weight; now maybe finding somewhere in the middle.  

This is a perennial question for me; do I build bomb-proof and have durability out the ass, or, do I build light-weight but basically disposable gear.  Sorta depends on you and your outlook!  For me as an armed civilian in an uncertain world, for sure going bomb-proof again makes a lot of sense.  For conscripts in a war of attrition, well, to put it bluntly, you are being fed into the buzzsaw, so you and your gear are expendable.  That's sorta fucked up but ain't gonna sugar-coat it.  

I was issued gear made by the lowest gov't bidder.  Arkansas School for the Blind, I shit you not.  The belt kit we have seen pictured here, issued to the troops in Ukraine, are serviceable, but hardly compare to what we have available to us.  We are very fortunate.

I’ve never met a soldier or a marine who couldn’t break a bowling ball.  I for one, am in the over built is better school.  Anytime of picked up something lightweight, I immediately think about how soon I’ll break it.  Hell, even the Appalachian thru hikers treat their lightweight gear as disposable. If there is no supply chain, then there is no replacement. Overbuilt gear FTW.

EXTREMELY fortunate.

The only reason Ukraine is even getting THAT gear is we are giving it to them.  Imagine what they would be issued if we weren't funding their war and giving them a ton of gear.

I've said it before - once we kick off WW3, within 6 months to a year, US troops won't be issued the gucci gear they're getting now.  And by gucci I mean 'base level issue arkansas school for the blind' crap.  They will be lucky to get a surplus set of FLC gear.

The thru hikers also depend on a robust system of resupply built along the trail, including equipment replacement.  The last trip I did, I met a dude who had gone through something like 6 pair of minimalist trail runners (shoes) in a month and a half.   He was limping into a trailhead with his shoes duct-taped together.  He had finally decided he was going to upgrade to something heavier duty.  

Many truths here.  

The App Trail concept is something very useful, to illustrate the concept of a logistic's tail, with convenient "supply dumps" at strategic locations to support the mission.  Having "care packages" delivered to PO's along the way is the civilian version of cache sites located around your AO.

Also distilling your kit down to what's actually useful is sometimes only possible through your own trial and error.  Although we do try our best here.  

Going to some of these gear shops along the trail is priceless.  All the bullshit and hype is stripped away and you're left with what actually works.  

In this same spirit, we are trying to discover what really works, for us, vs all the bullshit.  

There is no doubt that a balance must be reached, between durability, and weight.  Plus, as the App Trail illustrates, between light weight gear that can be (easily) replaced, and more durable gear that perhaps cannot.  It might be said that we are "gaming" it, by using light weight, easily replaceable kit to accomplish the mission (whatever that might be), rather than preparing for more austere times, when no such easy re-supply may be available.  With this in mind, we should look at all these light weight initiatives with a very jaundiced eye.  And the Lightfighter initiative is very good, for what it's trying to accomplish, but individual pieces of kit can only be parred down so far.  Maybe the larger lesson here is figure out how to cache what we need rather than lug it all around.

I’m staking MY life on slightly heavier and a hell of a lot more durable.

I did alot of my backpacking for years with a Mystery Ranch Big Sky pack, including my long jaunt on the Appalachian Trail.  It's only a 3,000 cu in pack (for comparison, a Medium Alice is 2,400 cu inches), and I wasn't even carrying a bunch of gucci equipment.  You don't actually need much once you get your gear dialed down.  Most of my space was taken up by 4 quarts of water (two inside the pack) and up to 10 days of food.  

You are absolutely right about the gear shops RIGHT ON the trail, especially the ones near the beginning and end of the trail.  They are VASTLY different than most gear shops.  Some of them I've seen were literally just the size of a bedroom.  With half that room taken up by footwear.



I lean that direction too.  It's why I went the Mystery Ranch then the Hill People Gear route for backpacking packs.  Alot of my friends were into the ultralight stuff, I decided I wanted a pack that would last a decade or longer of hard use + would provide good load carrying suspension.  My pack weighed more than theirs did, but mine was far more comfortable to carry.  And their packs lasted a year or three.  I've still got my Mystery Ranch packs, And they are still in excellent condition.

Well, I drunk ordered a Diz Rig (not really drunk, just a good excuse) in Multicam...preference for most of the terrain year-round here. Looking forward to comparing it to my Jay Jay's rig and my Jay Jay's/Velocity Systems hybrid kit. Doing what I can to support Diz!

ROCK6

Thanks brother!  As well reported here, I think you will like either rig.  JJ's was the gold std I was trying to improve on.

It's always a careful "balancing" act.  The more field experience one has, the better the "balance".

I often reflect on my deployment experience when it comes to comfort and convenience gear.  Yes we got bottles of water and MREs, but I was quick to find out what the missing items were.  Our only hope for “gear” was coming across the occasional AAFES trailer. Gear was slim to none.  Plenty of Vienna sausages, Chikin biscuits, and cheez whiz tho.  I probably carry more conveniences because of that experience.  That weight is well worth it to me.  YMMV based on your own experience.

Question For those with the dz rig or the man himself, can the  straps easily be detached from the d-rings on the belt portion?

I assume they are and everything comes unassembled and you pass them through yourself, but just wanted to confirm.

The yoke straps are easily removed from the D-rings on the belt. Mine came assembled, and I had to do very little adjustment.  I must be the size of their XL mannequin.  

Attached File


Easy adjustment or removal

Yes.  You just have to undo the velcro retainer, it then slips out of a loop of webbing.  Super easy.  Mine is off right now actually, I'm playing around with it.  

On the topic of modifying the harness, I would have enjoyed a velcro panel up top for IR Reflective markings.

I am going to have to hand awl one on, as that area is too thick for my sewing machine.

A little pull out IR panel tucked under it would be sliiiiiick.

Have you tried putting it under the sewing machine?  There's actually not much resistance there, it's a simple thin layer of foam between cordura and softshell.  A domestic machine should be able to do it, if it'll fit under the foot.

But yea, if not, sewing one on by hand is doable too.