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Posted: 10/20/2020 1:23:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 9mm could use some improvement. The only difference with this is the brass, and it is a drop in barrel replacement- makes me wonder if you couldn’t just have a factory barrel’s chamber lengthened for the longer casing instead of buying an all new barrel. I might tinker with this cartridge sometime....if the brass isn’t ridiculous expensive it could be interesting. Make 9mm Great! (Notice no “again” included!) 9mm can be loaded hot with some modern guns. 9mm loaded to major power factor is widely popular in USPSA now. |
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Posted: 10/20/2020 1:42:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't know, i have only ever seen them in 1911's, CZ clones and Sig (Browning BDA) made one years ago. https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/4894134305/9088895/38sa%20004.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg In looking at the pictures of the round. .38 super is about the same length as .45acp https://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2015/07/Figure-2-Velocity-Performance-BE86-Brad-Miller-300x187.jpg Couldn't an M&P 2.0 in .45acp be a host gun? Maybe mod the ejector? .38 Super is based on the .38 ACP, stronger case for higher pressure but the overall dimensions are the same. .38 ACP and .45 ACP are virtually the same overall length (something like .005" difference in the specs). It predates the .45 ACP by a few years, but the earlier pistols were pretty much the same size as the 1911. |
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Posted: 10/20/2020 2:02:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also a cool round but 5.7 has it beat on bullet options, price, gun makes, and also P90  While the PS90 looks cool, it's a one trick pony w/ an orphan mag. If you're going 5.7x28mm in a carbine, use the FN 57 magazine in an AR platform. Maybe Ruger mags if someone comes up w/ an AR magwell. |
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Posted: 10/20/2020 2:20:08 PM EDT
[#4]
How sensitive are, say, 9mm Glock mags to longer brass? Will these fit my G17 mags fine?
I'm open to something along the lines (also have a G22 I can use for .357 Sig) but I'm worried that when I pick something it'll lose the race.  Probably I should just get a larger frame Glock instead. A $300 kit goes a long way towards another gun. |
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Posted: 10/20/2020 2:30:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Add it to the lengthy list of exotic ammo I have zero interest in.
It's a solunion looking for a problem IMO. |
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Posted: 10/20/2020 2:58:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would the Glock 43/43x frame and slide take 50k psi?!?, 9 para is 30 to 35k. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 2020 has been retarded enough without this nonsense. Exactly. Just when I though 2020 couldn't get any weirder, .356 TSW. I say this as a guy who has shot thousands of rounds of 357 Sig and carried a Glock 32 or 33 for over 5 years. And reloaded many of those thousands of rounds... I'd kinda like a .356 TSW chambered Glock 43X/48 though... Would the Glock 43/43x frame and slide take 50k psi?!?, 9 para is 30 to 35k. I am not sure. A Glock engineer could probably answer that, but whether they would answer it is another story... IIRC a 9x19 proof load is around 45k psi. We could always have Aimless hold it in one of his flippers for a few mags to be sure 
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Posted: 10/20/2020 3:02:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just want a modern .32 calibre high-pressure round, something like a hot-rodded 7.65 Longue. 12-15" of penetration, and adequate expansion, in a modern high-cap pistol. 100% agree. I've been saying that for a while. The time has come. |
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Posted: 10/20/2020 10:53:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, you're not missing a thing here. The .356 TSW runs at 49,000 PSI. And who thought the muzzle blast was bad on the .357 Sig at 40,000 PSI? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It just seems like 9mm Major with more steps: 9x19 COL + 9x19 Projectile + 9x19 case diameter = 9x19 case capacity Which means its running at 9mm Major pressure levels (42kpsi+) Unless I'm missing something here. No, you're not missing a thing here. The .356 TSW runs at 49,000 PSI. And who thought the muzzle blast was bad on the .357 Sig at 40,000 PSI? It would be fun in a C model Glock or one w/ a brake on it. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 4:15:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the other hand it's not a boutique cartridge, and is fairly available. Especially during panics when everything else is sold out. I'd rather own a 357 sig. Also 357 sig comes in a wider variety of loadings. I'd like to find some .357 Sig, but it's much rarer and much more expensive than 9mm is right now. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 5:12:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would be fun in a C model Glock or one w/ a brake on it. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 5:26:18 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would legitimize those stupid Roland Special G19s. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It would be fun in a C model Glock or one w/ a brake on it. 960 rowland would too, and it has more case capacity. A brake makes sense though porting the barrel would kind of defeat the point, why bleed velocity when the goal is a .357 power level from a 9mm frame. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 9:25:23 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 960 rowland would too, and it has more case capacity. A brake makes sense though porting the barrel would kind of defeat the point, why bleed velocity when the goal is a .357 power level from a 9mm frame. I thought in one of the gun games the goal was to make major w/ light bullets but still have enough gas to run the comp so the muzzle would stay level for your next shot. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 10:43:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought in one of the gun games the goal was to make major w/ light bullets but still have enough gas to run the comp so the muzzle would stay level for your next shot. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 960 rowland would too, and it has more case capacity. A brake makes sense though porting the barrel would kind of defeat the point, why bleed velocity when the goal is a .357 power level from a 9mm frame. I thought in one of the gun games the goal was to make major w/ light bullets but still have enough gas to run the comp so the muzzle would stay level for your next shot. Pretty much. USPSA/IPSC Open division. A brake gives you less muzzle flip without cutting any velocity like a ported barrel would. And the weight of the comp itself helps as well. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 11:09:55 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to find some .357 Sig, but it's much rarer and much more expensive than 9mm is right now. 
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Posted: 10/21/2020 11:40:04 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Statistically irrelevant. Each round beyond 4 offers logarithmic diminishing returns. Statistically the difference beyween 15 and 17 rounds, in a self defense situation, is no difference at all. That Glock 17/22 comparison is what I think you're basing that on. The .40 Beretta holds 12 vs 17 for the 9mm. The S&W 3rd gens only held 11 from memory vs 15 . |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 11:41:45 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That Glock 17/22 comparison is what I think you're basing that on. The .40 Beretta holds 12 vs 17 for the 9mm. The S&W 3rd gens only held 11 from memory vs 15 . Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Statistically irrelevant. Each round beyond 4 offers logarithmic diminishing returns. Statistically the difference beyween 15 and 17 rounds, in a self defense situation, is no difference at all. That Glock 17/22 comparison is what I think you're basing that on. The .40 Beretta holds 12 vs 17 for the 9mm. The S&W 3rd gens only held 11 from memory vs 15 . The Beretta 92 was 15rd and the 96 was 11rd. Same as the S&W 5906 and 4006. Beretta upgraded the mags to 17rd for the 92 and 13rd for the 96 recently. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 11:48:13 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Statistically irrelevant. Each round beyond 4 offers logarithmic diminishing returns. Statistically the difference beyween 15 and 17 rounds, in a self defense situation, is no difference at all. Talks about statistical insignificance. Talks about .40S&W being "more effective" than 9x19. #just 10MMkurzthings 
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Posted: 10/21/2020 11:49:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup and no. The Beretta 92 was 15rd and the 96 was 11rd. Same as the S&W 5906 and 4006. Beretta upgraded the mags to 17rd for the 92 and 13rd for the 96 recently. 96-A1 is 12 according to Berreta's site. So at inception the difference was 4 and now it's 5. Still not 2 like the G17/22. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 1:13:17 PM EDT
[#19]
I imagine I have fired more bottle necked pistol cartridges through more platforms than anyone here and I can tell you from first hand experience over the last 30 years, bottle necked pistol cartridges DO NOT have a feeding advantage.
In fact, they are worse than straight walled cases in many platforms/calibers. They are prone to nose-down feeding stoppages. Calibers include: 41 Avenger 40 Super 9mm Super 22 TCM 22TCM9r 30 LMP 357 AMP 41 JMP 9x25 Dillon 38/45 Clerke 38 Casull 440 Corbon 429 DE 400 Corbon 357/45 Grizzly WinMag 357 Sig 32 NAA 25 NAA Tony Rumore Tromix |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 1:13:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought in one of the gun games the goal was to make major w/ light bullets but still have enough gas to run the comp so the muzzle would stay level for your next shot. It is. |
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Posted: 10/21/2020 5:29:57 PM EDT
[#21]
I can tell you from first hand experience over the last 30 years, bottle necked pistol cartridges DO NOT have a feeding advantage. This has also been my experience as well. Reliable pistols which shoot bottle necked cartridges are reliable in spite of, not because of, the bottle necked cartridge. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 2:11:20 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .357sig and .45gap never had mass adoption. I think I know exactly one guy personally who owns a .357sig firearm. I know another guy that bought some .45gap ammo on clearance so he could feed it to a revolver, but I don't think I've known anybody that owned a .45gap firearm. Meanwhile, there were millions of .40s&w pistols built. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It was a failure then and it'll be a failure again. You have the following in terms of usage. 9mm 45acp 40s&w 357sig 10mm In ten years the 10mm will pass the 357sig once any agency with them would have switched to 9mm leaving only individual Kool-Aid drinkers, which the 10mm clearly has more of. 20 years from now, the 40s&w will be thought of as an old quaint memory, like 357sig & 45gap. .357sig and .45gap never had mass adoption. I think I know exactly one guy personally who owns a .357sig firearm. I know another guy that bought some .45gap ammo on clearance so he could feed it to a revolver, but I don't think I've known anybody that owned a .45gap firearm. Meanwhile, there were millions of .40s&w pistols built. Yes.... GT Distributors ended up getting 500,000 of them as trade ins when the departments switched to 9mm. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 5:54:45 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes.... GT Distributors ended up getting 500,000 of them as trade ins when the departments switched to 9mm. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It was a failure then and it'll be a failure again. You have the following in terms of usage. 9mm 45acp 40s&w 357sig 10mm In ten years the 10mm will pass the 357sig once any agency with them would have switched to 9mm leaving only individual Kool-Aid drinkers, which the 10mm clearly has more of. 20 years from now, the 40s&w will be thought of as an old quaint memory, like 357sig & 45gap. .357sig and .45gap never had mass adoption. I think I know exactly one guy personally who owns a .357sig firearm. I know another guy that bought some .45gap ammo on clearance so he could feed it to a revolver, but I don't think I've known anybody that owned a .45gap firearm. Meanwhile, there were millions of .40s&w pistols built. Yes.... GT Distributors ended up getting 500,000 of them as trade ins when the departments switched to 9mm. This makes me chuckle a bit. My daily carry piece is a 357 sig. Its backup is a 357 sig. I also have a few hundred rounds of 45 gap that im.not sure what I am going to do with. Theres a local range that had the ammo for years and they started selling it for $3 a box to get rid of it last year. I bought every box they had. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 5:58:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never heard of it before...interesting. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/321106/117941BB-30BD-405F-B0FF-77F92AA3999F_jpe-1643089.JPG |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 6:04:25 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This makes me chuckle a bit. My daily carry piece is a 357 sig. Its backup is a 357 sig. I also have a few hundred rounds of 45 gap that im.not sure what I am going to do with. Theres a local range that had the ammo for years and they started selling it for $3 a box to get rid of it last year. I bought every box they had. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 6:26:44 AM EDT
[#26]
The $300 barrel will ensure it remains obscure. When replacement glock barrels are sub $100 this is a hard sell.
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Posted: 11/15/2020 7:28:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The more I study ballistics, and like many of you I've been doing it for 25 years, the more convinced I am that pistol calibers don't make a whole lot of difference. It isn't until you get up into the 2200 fps range that you produce serious wounds, and there just aren't any normal handguns that can get there. Pistol hits are only DRT stops with a CNS hit. Everything else is more about bullet design, meaning that a 10mm pushing a 135gr JHP is a WORSE bear gun than a 9mm shooting 147gr ball. Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch says that 80% of people shot by handgun rounds end up surviving. He goes onto say that “handguns put rounds into people. Rifles put rounds THROUGH people!" |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 7:45:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More powder than could ever burn in a pistol barrel resulting in excess noise and flash? I like shooting .357 Sig and would carry it if I ever thought barrier penetration such as a car door was a concern. DPS shot a suspect in the pelvis through his door during a chase. He quit running immediately. Not sure 9mm would have made it inside the vehicle. There’s nothing wrong with more options. Don’t recall ever hearing of .356. 9mm rips through car doors. Any remotely modern car anyway. Car skins are as thin and light as possible. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 10:18:12 AM EDT
[#29]
There is no "new" pistol cartridge going anywhere.
380, 9mm, 40, 45, 38/357 are basically it. There may be some niche cartridges like the 10mm and 357 sig, but none of them will be widely popular or manufactured. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 10:24:55 AM EDT
[#30]
Interesting. I don't need another caliber.
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Posted: 11/15/2020 10:30:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Very Interesting OP, thanks for posting.
I don't know if I'll ever adopt it but it sure looks interesting. One of the big draws for me, way back when, of the .357 was the ability to use cheap 38s for practice and stoke it with ,357 for HD. Swaping a barrel and spring isn't too bad, though. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 10:31:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I imagine I have fired more bottle necked pistol cartridges through more platforms than anyone here and I can tell you from first hand experience over the last 30 years, bottle necked pistol cartridges DO NOT have a feeding advantage. In fact, they are worse than straight walled cases in many platforms/calibers. They are prone to nose-down feeding stoppages. Calibers include: 41 Avenger 40 Super 9mm Super 22 TCM 22TCM9r 30 LMP 357 AMP 41 JMP 9x25 Dillon 38/45 Clerke 38 Casull 440 Corbon 429 DE 400 Corbon 357/45 Grizzly WinMag 357 Sig 32 NAA 25 NAA Tony Rumore Tromix Interesting. Thanks Tony. I'm always glad to see you post, everything you say is always useful and borne from experience. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 10:54:45 AM EDT
[#33]
Must be the only ammo
 left on the shelf at the gunshops or something.
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Posted: 11/15/2020 12:00:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no "new" pistol cartridge going anywhere. 380, 9mm, 40, 45, 38/357 are basically it. There may be some niche cartridges like the 10mm and 357 sig, but none of them will be widely popular or manufactured.
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Posted: 11/15/2020 12:20:17 PM EDT
[#35]
I shot a employee owned performance center 3rd gen .356tsw once at the S&W SSC.
Working in the range at the S&W factory and shooting warranty guns that came for repair I didn't see one once in the almost 10 years I worked there I dont even think we had any 356tsw ammo to shoot anyway. A rare gun for sure. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 12:38:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. Thanks Tony. I'm always glad to see you post, everything you say is always useful and borne from experience. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I imagine I have fired more bottle necked pistol cartridges through more platforms than anyone here and I can tell you from first hand experience over the last 30 years, bottle necked pistol cartridges DO NOT have a feeding advantage. In fact, they are worse than straight walled cases in many platforms/calibers. They are prone to nose-down feeding stoppages. Calibers include: 41 Avenger 40 Super 9mm Super 22 TCM 22TCM9r 30 LMP 357 AMP 41 JMP 9x25 Dillon 38/45 Clerke 38 Casull 440 Corbon 429 DE 400 Corbon 357/45 Grizzly WinMag 357 Sig 32 NAA 25 NAA Tony Rumore Tromix Interesting. Thanks Tony. I'm always glad to see you post, everything you say is always useful and borne from experience. He built me an AWESOME SBS Siaga. |
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Posted: 11/15/2020 1:06:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I imagine I have fired more bottle necked pistol cartridges through more platforms than anyone here and I can tell you from first hand experience over the last 30 years, bottle necked pistol cartridges DO NOT have a feeding advantage. In fact, they are worse than straight walled cases in many platforms/calibers. They are prone to nose-down feeding stoppages. Calibers include: 41 Avenger 40 Super 9mm Super 22 TCM 22TCM9r 30 LMP 357 AMP 41 JMP 9x25 Dillon 38/45 Clerke 38 Casull 440 Corbon 429 DE 400 Corbon 357/45 Grizzly WinMag 357 Sig 32 NAA 25 NAA Tony Rumore Tromix Tony, Being as how most rifle cartridges are bottle neck and very reliable. Is there a length difference in the straight walled area on a bottleneck cartridge that impacts one into being more reliable than others? I have a theory. But I'm curious on your thoughts first. |
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