Quoted:  Does it do anything better than 9mm or is it still just a pistol round that does pistol round damage?

Quoted:
Wait, GD and the Internet at large has repeatedly assured me that BuLLeT aDvAnCeS  means 9mm is "just as good" as all other handgun cartridges often citing the FBI switch as proof in spite of the report actually citing it was good enough to get the logistical savings.

Also GD has informed me that having 15 instead of 17 or 13 instead of 15 rounds in my carry gun will be my funeral even though statistically the number of shots fired in a defensive encounter is three.

So I am confused, 9mm was supposed to have won the Caliber Wars, why develop or bring back any other cartridge as anything faster is worthless and anything with fewer rounds will mean you die in the multi-mag gunfights that occur all the time?  

Quoted:
Last I checked, .38 Super doesn't fit in a 9mm framed handgun like a G19 or M&P 2.0 Compact.

Quoted:
I thought 9mm was "just as good" now lol

Quoted:
I thought 9mm was "just as good" now lol

Quoted:
what's the negative with .357 sig?

seemed good enough at that texas church shooting.

Quoted:
So it's 9mm major. I definitely didn't break an ejector on a Sig P226 shooting 9mm major in it.

I'll pass. If I want 40 recoil I want the bigger bullet that comes with it.

Quoted:


Against human threats?  Yep.

The hunting/backpacking "woods gun" angle is indeed a different story though.  But I just don't really need that sort of thing these days.

Quoted:


Yes.

Because when it comes to what we are trying to do with defensive handguns, they don't reliably produce results that are vastly superior to 9mm.

All handgun bullets to...all of them...is punch holes in things. Bigger, heavier bullets can do a better job of breaking through bones. Lighter, faster bullets can do a better job of zipping through intermediate barriers.

In the end, though, all we get is a bullet that creates a permanent crush cavity that hopefully reliably penetrates deep enough to hit important vital structures in a human being. Bullets that over-expand cause shallow penetration. If you take an HST and you push it from the ~ 1,100-1,200 FPS it is currently running and stick the very same bullet over more powder pushing it to ~ 1,400-1,500 fps or more it's going to over-expand and penetrate shallow.

So you need, at a minimum, a new bullet that will expand more slowly to go along with the increased velocity. And that bullet will end up expanding about as much as the 9mm bullet. And it will end up with about the same penetration as the 9mm bullet. It may do a bit better through intermediate barriers, but by "a bit" I mean the performance difference will be extremely marginal.

Because physics is physics. Every cartridge is a compromise.

Now if you are looking for a caliber/cartridge you can push to the gills to hunt game with, the extra capacity can come in handy. I'd rather have a 10mm loaded well if I was hunting, say, hogs, than my 9mm. Some of the advantages the 10mm's larger bullet and larger powder capacity starts to come into play in those circumstances.

But against human threats, a .356 TSW or .357 Sig is still going to be pushing a .355 bullet into human flesh where, if the bullet is designed properly for the velocity it is going, will penetrate deeply enough to hit the vitals of a person and will expand reliably to the same general size as a 9mm projectile.

That's what a .357 magnum does, by the way. The .357 magnum loaded to its potential pushing a 158 grain bullet fast penetrates deep. So deep, in fact, that it tends to overpenetrate. And in flesh it doesn't do anything spectacular that sets it apart from what a 124 grain or 147 grain 9mm projectile does to tissue. But if you need that extra penetration for performance at distance against game, or to bust through the tougher bits on a hog, the extra blast, recoil, and slower followup shots aren't an issue anymore. In defensive use of a handgun that .357's extra penetration doesn't buy you any advantage unless you're shooting at a dude through a significant barrier...and even then, it does so at the cost of lower capacity and slower followup. With more capacity and more time you can shoot more rounds from a 9mm and negate the benefit of that barrier.

Handgun bullets just punch holes in things. To make them do more than that you have to make them move twice as fast or make them more than twice as heavy. Either of which means you can't fit the cartridge into a practical handgun anymore.

Quoted:



I think the three of us are on the same sheet of music in terms of terminal ballistics against human threats.

Replacing a .357mag revolver as an outdoors gun is exactly where this thing makes the most sense. Remember, before the COVID-ocalypse hit, we were living in a world where Blackhawks were $600+ guns, GP-100s were $700+ guns, and 686s were $800+ guns, and all of those have all of the same drawbacks inherent to medium to full size revolvers. Getting .357mag-ish performance from a cartridge that fits in 9mm pistol form factors is a big upgrade, especially if those guns can be brought to market for the same price as typical 9mms. A $400 polymer striker thing that holds 10-20 rounds of .356TSW is far more appealing than a $800 revolver that weighs 40oz and only holds 6 rounds of .357mag.

Quoted:
I will just keep my 9x23mm, thank you.

Quoted:
It was a failure then and it'll be a failure again.  

You have the following in terms of usage.

9mm
45acp
40s&w
357sig
10mm

In ten years the 10mm will pass the 357sig once any agency with them would have switched to 9mm leaving only individual Kool-Aid drinkers, which the 10mm clearly has more of.  

20 years from now, the 40s&w will be thought of as an old quaint memory, like 357sig & 45gap.

Quoted:
Cool.

They probably need more factory guns and a major manufacturer like Hornady to pick it up in order for it to stick.

Quoted:
I will just keep my 9x23mm, thank you.

Quoted:
What problem does it solve that existing 9mm doesn't already handle?

Quoted:

So great that it never went anywhere.

Quoted:

It allows people to sit around and jack off each other who have bought into the magical hype.

 
What velocities are you seeing through your gun?  Do you use heavier (147+) bullets, or just the lighter bullets?    

Quoted:
Big Blue chambered it in two autos and one j-frame revolver. All were Performance Center guns and the cartridge was killed before it had a shot due to IPSC literally declaring it verboten for the matches before it hit the market.

Quoted:
5.7 is the way to go

Quoted:
Will it really do more that a hot .38 super comp or 9x21?

The .38 super comp in a ramped barrel solved most of the
problems without requiring painfully expensive commercial
ammunition like the 9x21.

Quoted:

Problem with the .38 Super is the Semi-Rim

Quoted:  Didn’t realize increased performance and energy was only hype.

Strange world we live in. Do you live your life settling with “good enough” or do you look for more?

Quoted:  The more I study ballistics, and like many of you I've been doing it for 25 years, the more convinced I am that pistol calibers don't make a whole lot of difference. It isn't until you get up into the 2200 fps range that you produce serious wounds, and there just aren't any normal handguns that can get there. Pistol hits are only DRT stops with a CNS hit. Everything else is more about bullet design, meaning that a 10mm pushing a 135gr JHP is a WORSE bear gun than a 9mm shooting 147gr ball.

Quoted:
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/G1220-Handguns-2.jpg

Corbon and Underwood are loading the cartridge and Briley is making GLOCK conversion kits!

THE .356 TSW - PROMISING CARTRIDGE BACK FROM THE DEAD. WRITTEN BY MASSAD AYOOB



TL;DR

It is a cartridge with the overall length of 9x19mm, but since it is a longer case. It can replicate the 124gr .357 Magnum from a 9mm framed Automatic. No difference in capacity. A G17 holds 17rd of .356 TSW. So all the benefit and none of the negative like the .357 Sig.

Quoted:
2020 has been retarded enough without this nonsense.

Quoted:
Took a marketing class a few years ago.

They talked about how some markets really drove to a two competitor system.  Coke vs Pepsi.  Colgate vs Crest. Other markets seem to drive to a 3 or 4 split, generally with 2 majors and 1 or 2 minors.  (Pizza hut vs Godfathers, with Dominoes being the 3rd, switched to Pizza Hut vs Dominoes, with Papa Johns being the third. Little Caesars as 4th, took a nosedive but recovered back to 4th)

I wonder if there's just something about ammo where we just need X amount of competitors, a perennial '3rd place'.  3rd place either because the old 1st or 2nd gets pushed down by a 3rd place surging forward ( this is the case with 38 special at one time it was #1, got pushed to 3rd,  in the 38 vs 9mm vs 45, the pushed off the map. )  40S&W held the third slot, but now that everyone agrees that it doesn't deserve a place in the top 3, we are going to have a fight for what cartridge emerges as the replacement '3rd placer'

Quoted:
I have been a big proponent of the 9MM since my first one in 1990. I have had to carry .40 due to work though.  I saw serious interest in this cartridge back in the day. .40 and .357 SiG had already been released.  I think it would be a very good viable woods gun with hard cast loads and in a self defense load.  A 124 grain JHP would be the cats ass.  Easier to control than a K or L frame revolver with more capacity.