08/08/08 war (Russia-Georgia conflict): fourth anniversary - Page 4

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 08/08/08 war (Russia-Georgia conflict): fourth anniversary (Page 4 of 8)

Posted: 8/12/2012 12:52:21 PM EDT

[#1]

I find it interesting that the russians stopped the advance as soon as a half dozen USAF c-17s landed with Georgian SF units that had been stomping hadji ass in Iraq. I'm sure the DoD gave the SF some nice parting gifts to land in like javelin missiles and such. There were also rumors that the USAF used raptors to escort the c-17s to the airfield.

Posted: 8/12/2012 12:54:13 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Posted: 8/12/2012 12:54:41 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Most of the "stans" and the Ukraine.

Your use of the blanket "'stans" term and "the" Ukraine really helps you come off like a regional expert. Keep going, I am learning so much.

Posted: 8/12/2012 12:56:41 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Most of the "stans" and the Ukraine.

which stans pray tell, with a bit of explanation in each case please.

Posted: 8/12/2012 12:57:27 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I find it interesting that the russians stopped the advance as soon as a half dozen USAF c-17s landed with Georgian SF units that had been stomping hadji ass in Iraq. I'm sure the DoD gave the SF some nice parting gifts to land in like javelin missiles and such. There were also rumors that the USAF used raptors to escort the c-17s to the airfield.

wow thats totes cool shit man.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:03:19 PM EDT

[#6]

Interesting thread.

Quoted:
Don't bother. I live in Turkey and these guys know Turkey better than me.

I'm waiting for it to become a caliphate any day now.

I know right. I'm expected to be converted any day now.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:19:33 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I wonder how many Arfcommers know that both the Communists and the National Socialists are vehemently opposed to the EU.

Even blind pigs can find an occasional nut.

Historically, Europe's prime competitive advantage was its diversity. The EU wants that to go away under a mountain of regulation, bureaucracy and debt.

The greatest political science lie ever told was that Communism was well meaning, and the second is that nationalism caused the Great Wars.

I believe that it's possible for the EU to maintain diversity while still reaping the benefits of co-operation. A federalist union in the form that was envisioned by the American founding fathers would be ideal. Foreign policy, defence and international trade should be decided on the federal level, all else is left to the individual states.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:22:12 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I wonder how many Arfcommers know that both the Communists and the National Socialists are vehemently opposed to the EU.

Even blind pigs can find an occasional nut.

Historically, Europe's prime competitive advantage was its diversity. The EU wants that to go away under a mountain of regulation, bureaucracy and debt.

The greatest political science lie ever told was that Communism was well meaning, and the second is that nationalism caused the Great Wars.

I believe that it's possible for the EU to maintain diversity while still reaping the benefits of co-operation. A federalist union in the form that was envisioned by the American founding fathers would be ideal. Foreign policy, defence and international trade should be decided on the federal level, all else is left to the individual states.

That's not what the EU is or was ever intended to be.

So your cool with Swedes dying for Franco-German foreign policy?

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:22:12 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

You're just trying to confuse us with teryaki, but we're on to you.

We will not submit to Shariah. Melon labia!

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:24:01 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Most of the "stans" and the Ukraine.

which stans pray tell, with a bit of explanation in each case please.

Kyrgyzstan would be one, but I'll leave how much of that is due to internal Kyrgyz-Uzbek politics to people more expert than I.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:24:04 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Most of the "stans" and the Ukraine.

which stans pray tell, with a bit of explanation in each case please.

It's alot of typing but here is the short Russia is playing most of the regional players against each other while not backing any particular one fully just yet. The Kyrgyzstan air base extortion is a good example of Russia using growing influence to cause trouble to the West. The region isn't fully pro Russian yet but as the West steps back they are stepping back in.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:25:24 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I wonder how many Arfcommers know that both the Communists and the National Socialists are vehemently opposed to the EU.

Even blind pigs can find an occasional nut.

Historically, Europe's prime competitive advantage was its diversity. The EU wants that to go away under a mountain of regulation, bureaucracy and debt.

The greatest political science lie ever told was that Communism was well meaning, and the second is that nationalism caused the Great Wars.

I believe that it's possible for the EU to maintain diversity while still reaping the benefits of co-operation. A federalist union in the form that was envisioned by the American founding fathers would be ideal. Foreign policy, defence and international trade should be decided on the federal level, all else is left to the individual states.

That's not what the EU is or was ever intended to be.

So your cool with Swedes dying for Franco-German foreign policy?

You seem to be confused as to what the EU is.

Franco-German foreign policy is already closely aligned with our own. Would you be cool with people from your state dying for Californian foreign policy?

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:27:07 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:29:47 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I wonder how many Arfcommers know that both the Communists and the National Socialists are vehemently opposed to the EU.

Even blind pigs can find an occasional nut.

Historically, Europe's prime competitive advantage was its diversity. The EU wants that to go away under a mountain of regulation, bureaucracy and debt.

The greatest political science lie ever told was that Communism was well meaning, and the second is that nationalism caused the Great Wars.

I believe that it's possible for the EU to maintain diversity while still reaping the benefits of co-operation. A federalist union in the form that was envisioned by the American founding fathers would be ideal. Foreign policy, defence and international trade should be decided on the federal level, all else is left to the individual states.

That's not what the EU is or was ever intended to be.

So your cool with Swedes dying for Franco-German foreign policy?

You seem to be confused as to what the EU is.

Franco-German foreign policy is already closely aligned with our own. Would you be cool with people from your state dying for Californian foreign policy?

I didn't know Cailifornia was its own Country.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:30:39 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Your posts seem to suggest NATO should be some sort of extension of US policy, as Russian propaganda like to spin it, and not the alliance of independent countries that it is.

Even your opinion of the EU seems more related to its unwillingness to take policy direction from Washington, more so than anything.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:34:17 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:35:43 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I wonder how many Arfcommers know that both the Communists and the National Socialists are vehemently opposed to the EU.

Even blind pigs can find an occasional nut.

Historically, Europe's prime competitive advantage was its diversity. The EU wants that to go away under a mountain of regulation, bureaucracy and debt.

The greatest political science lie ever told was that Communism was well meaning, and the second is that nationalism caused the Great Wars.

I believe that it's possible for the EU to maintain diversity while still reaping the benefits of co-operation. A federalist union in the form that was envisioned by the American founding fathers would be ideal. Foreign policy, defence and international trade should be decided on the federal level, all else is left to the individual states.

That's not what the EU is or was ever intended to be.

So your cool with Swedes dying for Franco-German foreign policy?

You seem to be confused as to what the EU is.

Franco-German foreign policy is already closely aligned with our own. Would you be cool with people from your state dying for Californian foreign policy?

I didn't know Cailifornia was its own Country.

Read my previous posts.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:36:32 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

You seem to be confused as to what the EU is.

Franco-German foreign policy is already closely aligned with our own. Would you be cool with people from your state dying for Californian foreign policy?

I might not be an expert on European politics, but I think your understating the internal differences between France and Germany alone, save just the regional players of Europe.

I think we can see where fiscal "convergence" led, and there was much more consensus there than in the military realm.

California doesn't have 2000 years of independent foreign policy, derived from a multitude of sources, that the EUcrats are hoping to wish away in a decade. France does. France does have a usable military, as opposed to the rest of Euroland. There isn't even a real EU military coordination body on par with NATO, and Libya showed how depended that NATO remains on American support for even limited operations against a third tier power. NATO has been coordinating for half a century.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:40:57 PM EDT

[#19]

Very interesting about the Georgian mob............I did not know that..........can you elaborate more?

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why are they wearing the USMC uniform?

Georgian Army was in the process of switching from something similar to our old woodland uniforms and Russian stuff to MARPAT, the pattern being what they adopted as part of their modernization programme. I think by the time of the war only reservists were still using the older uniforms.

And, if I remember correctly, they had quite a few troops in Iraq at the time?

Just about half their army. They mysteriously re-appeared back in their own country hours after the start of hostilities. They literally walked out of combat in one country, and into combat in their own country. Plane touched down, inserted mags, and marched into combat. That caught the Russians off balance.

They got there too late to affect the outcome, since the Russians chose not to press their advantage. The U.S. Air Force brought them in. It was no surprise or secret.

The Russians were definately taken by surprise by it happening. There are many reasons the Russians chose not to press that advantage, and the fact that the Georgian Army re-appeared was part of it.

Lol! Do tell us how they scared off and beat the shit out of the Russians after they where encircled, had their cities and airfields sacked, hardware and drones captured, and ethnicly cleasened out of South Ossetia.

Taking lots of replaceable "stuff" does not equate to "winning". Sure, it looks good on camera for people who don't know what they are talking about, but the Georgian adventure was a fucking beat down for the Russians, politically and militarily.

Yeah, they dropped a shit ton of bombs, but bombing sheep, and I mean that literally, they were bombing livestock, as a way to " show your might" is fucking stupid, and is the rage of an impotent man.

The Russian ground forces were badly mauled in that little fiasco. The best portion and men of the Georgian army were elsewhere. What was left were some dudes who had just rotated out of Iraq, their shitbirds, and "politically unreliable" commanders. And they still acquitted themselves fairly well. The Georgians limited themselves because they just haven't grasped logistics yet. Even on their home turf it is difficult for them to re-supply in contact. They are working on that, though.

Civilian Georgians own a shit ton of firearms, and they fucked the Russians up with them. One of the most effective civilian fighting forces was the Georgian mobsters. They paid a heavy toll, but whipped the shit out of the Reds. Whether you want to believe it or not is your own choice, I'm laying out the reality. .

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:44:08 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:

You seem to be confused as to what the EU is.

Franco-German foreign policy is already closely aligned with our own. Would you be cool with people from your state dying for Californian foreign policy?

I might not be an expert on European politics, but I think your understating the internal differences between France and Germany alone, save just the regional players of Europe.

I think we can see where fiscal "convergence" led, and there was much more consensus there than in the military realm.

California doesn't have 2000 years of independent foreign policy, derived from a multitude of sources, that the EUcrats are hoping to wish away in a decade. France does. France does have a usable military, as opposed to the rest of Euroland. There isn't even a real EU military coordination body on par with NATO, and Libya showed how depended that NATO remains on American support for even limited operations against a third tier power. NATO has been coordinating for half a century.

The poor performance in Libya is all the proof necessary for the need for a European military alliance. The current fiscal problems were the result of poorly managed and insufficient integration.

You're arguments merely support my position.

Creating a federal state will take several decades, probably upwards of a century, but it will happen. The current crisis is even speeding it up.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:47:55 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

Hardly. When France withdrew in 1968, a series of secret treaties were put in place to assure wartime C2. Additionally, the argument could be that an more independent nuclear power complicated Soviet planning. In any event, DeGaulle intended to multi polarize the Alliance for domestic political reasons, and succeeded only on the domestic side.

Any way you wash it, the Turkish unhelpfulness in the runup to OIF complicated our logistics and operational problem greatly, during a major combat operation. More than a fuckup, it was symptomatic of decades of much of European security towards the US, of all assistance short of actual help. I was just shocked it came from one of the few NATO nations that could be bothered to spend over 2% on defense.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:51:21 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

The polarization that would have happened in Turkey was much more important than France pulling out. France still knows who to back, and their withdrawal has made less than a squirt of piss of difference.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:54:08 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

Hardly. When France withdrew in 1968, a series of secret treaties were put in place to assure wartime C2. Additionally, the argument could be that an more independent nuclear power complicated Soviet planning. In any event, DeGaulle intended to multi polarize the Alliance for domestic political reasons, and succeeded only on the domestic side.

Any way you wash it, the Turkish unhelpfulness in the runup to OIF complicated our logistics and operational problem greatly, during a major combat operation. More than a fuckup, it was symptomatic of decades of much of European security towards the US, of all assistance short of actual help. I was just shocked it came from one of the few NATO nations that could be bothered to spend over 2% on defense.

It's evident from my posts that I NEVER whitewash a Turkish fuck up or try to downplay it's seriousness. It was an unfortunate event and I hope in the future things will not be so.

Still it is NOWHERE near the French pulling from NATO. The part about complicating Soviet planning and being beneficial is also quite dubious.

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:55:32 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

The polarization that would have happened in Turkey was much more important than France pulling out. France still knows who to back, and their withdrawal has made less than a squirt of piss of difference.

What polarization?

You do realize that your glorious France was the leader of opposition to OIF don't you?

Posted: 8/12/2012 1:55:50 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

Hardly. When France withdrew in 1968, a series of secret treaties were put in place to assure wartime C2. Additionally, the argument could be that an more independent nuclear power complicated Soviet planning. In any event, DeGaulle intended to multi polarize the Alliance for domestic political reasons, and succeeded only on the domestic side.

Any way you wash it, the Turkish unhelpfulness in the runup to OIF complicated our logistics and operational problem greatly, during a major combat operation. More than a fuckup, it was symptomatic of decades of much of European security towards the US, of all assistance short of actual help. I was just shocked it came from one of the few NATO nations that could be bothered to spend over 2% on defense.

Do you seriously think the US gave half a shit about Turkish concerns about their border with Iraq and the impact OIF would have on the Kurds?

That door swings both ways. OIF was not a NATO operation, was not supported by many NATO countries. What obligation did the Turks have to let us use their country as a staging area for a war they didn't even support? Why should the US have even expected this? What obligations related to the alliance did they fail on?

Are you seriously comparing that the France's flat-out rejection of the alliance, and - as you admit - their attempt to polarize it?

Posted: 8/12/2012 2:00:30 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Very interesting about the Georgian mob............I did not know that..........can you elaborate more?

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why are they wearing the USMC uniform?

Georgian Army was in the process of switching from something similar to our old woodland uniforms and Russian stuff to MARPAT, the pattern being what they adopted as part of their modernization programme. I think by the time of the war only reservists were still using the older uniforms.

And, if I remember correctly, they had quite a few troops in Iraq at the time?

Just about half their army. They mysteriously re-appeared back in their own country hours after the start of hostilities. They literally walked out of combat in one country, and into combat in their own country. Plane touched down, inserted mags, and marched into combat. That caught the Russians off balance.

They got there too late to affect the outcome, since the Russians chose not to press their advantage. The U.S. Air Force brought them in. It was no surprise or secret.

The Russians were definately taken by surprise by it happening. There are many reasons the Russians chose not to press that advantage, and the fact that the Georgian Army re-appeared was part of it.

Lol! Do tell us how they scared off and beat the shit out of the Russians after they where encircled, had their cities and airfields sacked, hardware and drones captured, and ethnicly cleasened out of South Ossetia.

Taking lots of replaceable "stuff" does not equate to "winning". Sure, it looks good on camera for people who don't know what they are talking about, but the Georgian adventure was a fucking beat down for the Russians, politically and militarily.

Yeah, they dropped a shit ton of bombs, but bombing sheep, and I mean that literally, they were bombing livestock, as a way to " show your might" is fucking stupid, and is the rage of an impotent man.

The Russian ground forces were badly mauled in that little fiasco. The best portion and men of the Georgian army were elsewhere. What was left were some dudes who had just rotated out of Iraq, their shitbirds, and "politically unreliable" commanders. And they still acquitted themselves fairly well. The Georgians limited themselves because they just haven't grasped logistics yet. Even on their home turf it is difficult for them to re-supply in contact. They are working on that, though.

Civilian Georgians own a shit ton of firearms, and they fucked the Russians up with them. One of the most effective civilian fighting forces was the Georgian mobsters. They paid a heavy toll, but whipped the shit out of the Reds. Whether you want to believe it or not is your own choice, I'm laying out the reality. .

I wish I had more info, but I don't. I have been told by many of their soldiers and civilians that they really put the hand of smack on the Russians. They are very nationalistic and absolutely despise the Russians, and got to live out a SHTF fantasy. Real life Wolverines. Lots of hit and runs, straight up fire and maneuver. Lots of Georgian mobsters are former soldiers for the Red Army, and have rudimentary training and have not forgotten the suffering and humiliation they were put through as satelitte conscripts. Payback was a bitch.

Posted: 8/12/2012 2:03:24 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

The polarization that would have happened in Turkey was much more important than France pulling out. France still knows who to back, and their withdrawal has made less than a squirt of piss of difference.

What polarization?

You do realize that your glorious France was the leader of opposition to OIF don't you?

There is a large Muslim population in your country, you know? That polarization. Deny it, but if Turkey had allowed us an invasion route, or a logistics base, that would have created massive instability in your country.

And I am well aware of France's opposition to their money laundering coming to an end.

Posted: 8/12/2012 2:05:06 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, don't you knwo... all of them.

Well I get on this site and learn that the OIF, which was blocked from using Turkish soil with the overwhelming support of Turkish SECULARISTS, was actually an Islamist plot.

I learn that the administration which brought the biggest human rights changes and freedom to Turkey since 1938 is actually a caliphate sleeper cell.

"The region" which is turning to NATO more and more is actually "swaying towards Moscow".

The level of bullshit and outright ignorance on matters of foreign affairs here can be mind numbing.

Your post has the seeds of its own destruction. A NATO ally cock-blocked the US more than DeGaulle could have ever dreamed, in the name of "internal politics."

OIF, more than Georgia 2008, showed NATO to be a self-serving sham.

Oh for fuck's sake, so the Turkish fuck-up was a greater slight to NATO than a nuclear power withdrawing from the military side of NATO? That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not saying it wasn't a huge mistake. I wish it didn't happen but you're exaggareting.

The polarization that would have happened in Turkey was much more important than France pulling out. France still knows who to back, and their withdrawal has made less than a squirt of piss of difference.

What polarization?

You do realize that your glorious France was the leader of opposition to OIF don't you?

There is a large Muslim population in your country, you know? That polarization. Deny it, but if Turkey had allowed us an invasion route, or a logistics base, that would have created massive instability in your country.

And I am well aware of France's opposition to their money laundering coming to an end.

Well, no it wouldn't. But thanks for trying.

Posted: 8/12/2012 2:05:43 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Your posts seem to suggest NATO should be some sort of extension of US policy, as Russian propaganda like to spin it, and not the alliance of independent countries that it is.

Even your opinion of the EU seems more related to its unwillingness to take policy direction from Washington, more so than anything.

Hardly. But I've been called worse.

Europe has gotten too used to using America as a backstop for their own lack of preparation and dyslexic foreign policy (your war for oil, bad, my war for oil, great!)

All arguments aside, the security welfare dole is coming to an end for Europe. I imagine they'll choose irrelevance and capitulation, outside of the Central Europeans, Balts, and maybe France and the UK.

Posted: 8/12/2012 2:06:25 PM EDT

[#30]