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Link Posted: 6/6/2018 1:58:39 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
That kind of foolish on the homeowners part, to have a home with your entire life in it and knowingly not have the insurance for it. I don't care how bad someone wants to live in an certain area.  That's just stupidity.
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Meh. It's a risk they chose to take. It's a tropical paradise. The earlier neighborhood - Leilani Estates - may have been populated by more working class locals. These waterfront places are probably owned by much wealthier retirees or as vacation rentals or something. Different strokes, eh?

The north side of the island is much more stable. The west is dry. The east is wet. The south is pretty active volcano/lava-wise. I looked into relocating to Hilo at one point. Real estate is high but not unattainable. Work or business opportunity is also not terrible. I think they have a lot of turnover with folks getting island fever after a while and heading back to the mainland.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:01:07 PM EDT
[#2]
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You’re not kidding!

Any guesstimates on how far down a line would go if dropped down the crater? obviously assuming no heat etc etc
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I have no idea.

Hopefully the USGS will have some numbers soon.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:03:18 PM EDT
[#3]
I also read that the older webcams near the rim of Kilauea, fell into the expanding crater.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:28:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:33:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Scientist Describes Eruption Changes (Jun. 6, 2018)
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:33:48 PM EDT
[#6]
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That whole area is just...gone. Some real wrath of God Pele stuff there.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:34:51 PM EDT
[#7]
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The parking lot got closer to the edge?

Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:40:00 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
That kind of foolish on the homeowners part, to have a home with your entire life in it and knowingly not have the insurance for it. I don't care how bad someone wants to live in an certain area.  That's just stupidity.
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Many of those homes were not insured, or at least not insured against lava. Property insurance & mortgages in the less stable regions of Hawaii are not like most places. The island has something like 9 different zones and depending on your zone you may not be insurable at all.
That kind of foolish on the homeowners part, to have a home with your entire life in it and knowingly not have the insurance for it. I don't care how bad someone wants to live in an certain area.  That's just stupidity.
People who live there tend to be "different".
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:45:36 PM EDT
[#9]
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Mauna Kea gets snow every year.

Thats the way I like it, sit on my lanai drinking a mai tai and looking at that white shit waaaaay over there.
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I like to live IN the snow, not in the heat LOOKING at snow.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:48:36 PM EDT
[#10]
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So if you have a non-waterfront parcel and it gets covered by lava, you still own the entire parcel. The boundaries as defined by GPS coordinates are unchanged.

If you own waterfront property - even if your deed reads "the the mean high water line" or similar - you still own X acres and if lava extends the land so that the waterline is now hundreds of yards farther away... You do not gain acreage. And you lose your waterfront. On one hand I think that's fucked up - I own to the high water mark, so I still own to the high water mark. If all that filled in was 20' of sand, nobody would dispute the claim. Now that it's 500' of lava, all of a sudden I no longer own to the water? That's not cool.

I can see both sides of the argument. Buying property in an area where there have been multiple lava flows every century for thousands of years is a risky proposition.
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@itstock

The supreme court decided it in 1977 and said the state owns all new land.

State by Kobayashi v. Zimring
I'm not an attorney and I've not read the case, but I'm guessing that applies to newly created lands not yet patented. I don't see how any previously deeded lands that have new 'topsoil' blown in could be contested.

Alluvion and accretion are used synonymously to describe the addition of soil by gradual deposit. Usually along waterways. The land that is deposited as a result of accretion is known as alluvion, and riparian owners gain title to the deposited alluvion. This alluvion may result from natural forces or artificial forces, such as the construction of jetties upland.

I'm guessing the same principles would apply to accretion by lava flow...if the land was previously patented and has a clear chain of title. New land created by lava flowing into the ocean and not deeded by patent would belong to the state.
You are correct, its new land that extends into the ocean.  A family owned two plots of land and there was an eruption with lava flowing into the ocean creating new land attached to theirs. Something like 18 addition acres.   After a number of years they started planting trees and developing this new land.  Hawaii said no you dont own it.  It went to the supreme court and the supreme court ruled for the reason you noted; undeeded land belongs to the state and doesnt get attached to private property owners.
So if you have a non-waterfront parcel and it gets covered by lava, you still own the entire parcel. The boundaries as defined by GPS coordinates are unchanged.

If you own waterfront property - even if your deed reads "the the mean high water line" or similar - you still own X acres and if lava extends the land so that the waterline is now hundreds of yards farther away... You do not gain acreage. And you lose your waterfront. On one hand I think that's fucked up - I own to the high water mark, so I still own to the high water mark. If all that filled in was 20' of sand, nobody would dispute the claim. Now that it's 500' of lava, all of a sudden I no longer own to the water? That's not cool.

I can see both sides of the argument. Buying property in an area where there have been multiple lava flows every century for thousands of years is a risky proposition.
You are correct they ruled you still own the parcel as originally surveyed.  Interestingly the deed in the court case actually said "high water line".  The court also noted the land owners were losing their previously valuable waterfront access however they noted it was not equitable to compensate them with a tremendous amount of additional land.  The court case actually cited all the way back to when the king of Hawaii deeded all his land to the state.

Interesting read:

In determining in whom lava extensions should vest, we are guided by equitable principles and must balance between competing interests. On the one hand, there is the interest of the former littoral owner seeking to regain access to the ocean. On the other hand is the interest of the public at large, the original and ultimate owner of all Hawaiian land.

Certainly, a grant of the lava extension to the former littoral owner would compensate him for the loss of the beach-frontage character of his property. However, it is the windfall of the added acreage which such owner would also be afforded which this court finds troublesome. If a one-third acre parcel fronting the ocean is flowed over by lava which adds one or two seaward acres to the parcel, is it equitable that its owner acquire property which is three or six times the size of the preexisting parcel? If a littoral owner is to be thus compensated for lava devastation, should not an upland pasture or farm owner be also compensated with pasture or farm land for the *735 destruction of what had been the chief economic attribute of his parcel?

It is impossible for any court to fashion a legal doctrine which will equitably compensate all victims of lava devastation. This court believes that it is within the province of the legislature to determine the nature and extent of compensation for such natural disasters.

Rather than allowing only a few of the many lava victims the windfall of lava extensions, this court believes that equity and sound public policy demand that such land inure to the benefit of all the people of Hawaii, in whose behalf the government acts as trustee. Given the paucity of land in our island state and the concentration of private ownership in relatively few citizens, a policy enriching only a few would be unwise. Thus we hold that lava extensions vest when created in the people of Hawaii, held in public trust by the government for the benefit, use and enjoyment of all the people.

Under public trust principles,[18] the State as trustee has the duty to protect and maintain the trust property and regulate its use. Presumptively, this duty is to be implemented by devoting the land to actual public uses, e.g., recreation. Sale of the property would be permissible only where the sale promotes a valid public purpose.

While the Zimrings cannot be granted the private beachfront title which they seek, they, as members of the public, would share in public access to the lava extension and to the ocean, unless the interest in allowing public access is outweighed by some other public interest, or unless the land is sold in furtherance of the public interest.
Here is a more layman discussion

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywen3y/who-owns-the-new-land-created-by-a-volcano-in-hawaii-kilauea-big-island
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:50:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That kind of foolish on the homeowners part, to have a home with your entire life in it and knowingly not have the insurance for it. I don't care how bad someone wants to live in an certain area.  That's just stupidity.
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Surely they aren't mortgaged then? I mean, not by a regular mortgage lender.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:51:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:52:20 PM EDT
[#13]
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You are correct they ruled you still own the parcel as originally surveyed.  Interestingly the deed in the court case actually said "high water line".  The court also noted the land owners were losing their previously valuable waterfront access however they noted it was not equitable to compensate them with a tremendous amount of additional land.  The court case actually cited all the way back to when the king of Hawaii deeded
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... LOL, WTF?, GTFO!
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 2:57:02 PM EDT
[#14]
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No, the edge got closer to the parking lot.  The overlook is gone and fallen in
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 3:01:35 PM EDT
[#15]
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I like to live IN the snow, not in the heat LOOKING at snow.
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You just described me on Maui I hope you feel for me

Link Posted: 6/6/2018 3:18:50 PM EDT
[#16]
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The edge is about to be in the parking lot.

Look at that big crack right down the middle.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 3:24:05 PM EDT
[#17]
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Pretty sure it is a parking lot.
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Wonder what made that semi-circular track to the right of the crater, shown in the second pic. My guess is aliens...
Pretty sure it is a parking lot.
Silly me.

That adds an element of scale for reference. That crater is much bigger than I thought, and even bigger now.

When I was in Hilo last we were on a cruise, my friends went to the crater but by that time I was growing tired of them and their constant bickering. We went to the tropical gardens instead, now I wish I had gone to the volcano park.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 3:29:22 PM EDT
[#18]
USGS posted an drone overflight of the crater to their facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/USGSVolcanoes/videos/2055034881191729/

They finally added the same video to their actual website.

https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/observatories/hvo/multimedia_uploads/multimediaFile-2180.mp4
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 3:34:10 PM EDT
[#19]
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The edge is about to be in the parking lot.

Look at that big crack right down the middle.
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That'll be something to see.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 3:35:33 PM EDT
[#20]
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USGS posted an drone overflight of the crater to their facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/USGSVolcanoes/videos/2055034881191729/
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I really wish they would post videos longer than a couple minutes.

I want to see the entire area.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 3:42:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Must have been another collapse.

Kilauea livestream

White steam turns to dark brown around 9:04 am.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 4:07:43 PM EDT
[#22]
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... LOL, WTF?, GTFO!
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My reaction exactly.

Pro-tip: don't waste your money on water front property where lava flows are likely.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 4:09:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 4:40:56 PM EDT
[#24]
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My reaction exactly.

Pro-tip: don't waste your money on water front property where lava flows are likely.
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It does kinda make sense, though. Would you extend property lines all the way to the new oceanfront? What if the property lines are angled? How would that work?

Look at the farmer in the above court opinion: if his field becomes a lava field of rock, too bad so sad?
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 4:42:07 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That kind of foolish on the homeowners part, to have a home with your entire life in it and knowingly not have the insurance for it. I don't care how bad someone wants to live in an certain area.  That's just stupidity.
View Quote
Some are probably wealthy enough to not need to worry about it too much.

If you have $50M, and you lose a $400K vacation house, you can just shrug your shoulders, say "well darn," and just move on.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 6:06:55 PM EDT
[#26]
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My reaction exactly.

Pro-tip: don't waste your money on water front property where lava flows are likely.
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... LOL, WTF?, GTFO!
My reaction exactly.

Pro-tip: don't waste your money on water front property where lava flows are likely.
@winston_wolf @TerribleTom

Long read but the supreme court justices get to the point at the end.

It was long ago acknowledged that the people of Hawaii are the original owners of all Hawaiian land. The Constitution of 1840, promulgated by King Kamehameha III, states:

KAMEHAMEHA I, was the founder of the kingdom, and to him belonged all the land from one end of the Islands to the other, though it was not his own private property. It belonged to the chiefs and the people in common, of whom Kamehameha I, was the head, and had the management of the landed property.
Fundamental Law of Hawaii (1904) at 3 (emphasis added).

Responding to pressure exerted by foreign residents who sought fee title to land, and goaded by the recognition that the traditional system could not long endure, King Kamehameha III undertook a reformation of the traditional system of land tenure by instituting a regime of private title in the 1840's. In adopting a system under which individuals could hold title to land, the public domain, which theretofore had been all-encompassing, necessarily was diminished.

*730 A Board of Commissioners to Quiet Land Title, commonly known as the Land Commission, was created in 1846 for the "investigation and final ascertainment or rejection of all claims of private individuals," and was empowered to make Land Commission Awards. The Minister of Interior was authorized to issue Royal Patents upon such awards, upon payment of commutation by the awardee to the government, usually set at one-third the value of the unimproved land at the time of the award.[3] A Land Commission Award furnished as good and sufficient a ground upon which to maintain an action against any person as a Royal Patent. Act of August 10, 1854, Laws of Hawaii, 1854; RLH 1925, Vol. II at 2146-7.

In 1847, the King together with the Privy Council determined that a land mahele, or division, was necessary for the prosperity of the Kingdom. The rules adopted to guide such division were, in part, (1) that the King shall retain all his private lands as individual property and (2) that of the remaining lands, one-third was to be set aside for the Government, one-third to the chiefs and konohiki,[4] and one-third for the tenants.[5] The Great Mahele was started in 1848, with the chiefs and konohiki first coming forward to settle their interests by agreement with the King. The Mahele agreements were essentially reciprocal quitclaims and did not convey title. Detailed claims had to be presented to the Land Commission for formal Land Commission Awards.

Once the Mahele agreements with the chiefs and the konohiki had been completed, there was to be a division of the remaining lands between the King and the Government. The King's motives in undertaking such a division were indicated by this court in Estate of His Majesty Kamehameha IV, 2 Haw. 715, 722 (1864):

Even before [the King's] division with the [chiefs and konohiki], a second division between himself and the government or state was clearly contemplated, and he appears to have admitted that the lands he then held might have been subjected to a commutation in favor of the government, in like manner with the lands of the chiefs. The records of the discussion in Council show plainly his Majesty's anxious desire to free his lands from the burden of being considered public domain, and as such, subjected to the danger of confiscation in the event of his islands being seized by any foreign power, and also his wish to enjoy complete control over his own property. Moved by these considerations and by a desire to promote the interest of his Kingdom, he proceeded with an exalted liberality to set apart for the use of the government the larger portion of his royal domain, reserving to himself what he deemed a reasonable amount of land as his own estate.
To effect this, the King signed and sealed two instruments. By one instrument, the King, having "set apart forever to the chiefs and people the larger part of my royal land, for the use and benefit of the Hawaiian Government," retained for himself and his heirs certain designated lands, thereafter referred to as Crown Lands. By the second instrument, the King "set apart forever to the chiefs and people of my Kingdom" the remaining designated lands. Id. at 723. Until 1865, when Crown Lands were made inalienable,[6] Kamehameha III and his successors acted like private owners respecting such lands. The deeds executed by the King upon sale of any portion of the Crown Lands are known as Kamehameha Deeds.

The public domain, which previous to the Mahele had been all-inclusive, was diminished by withdrawals of the Crown Lands and the lands successfully claimed by *731 chiefs, konohiki and tenants. It included, inter alia, the lands surrendered to the Government by the King, the lands ceded by the chiefs in lieu of commutation, the lands purchased by the government, and all lands forfeited by the neglect of claimants to present their claims to the Land Commission within the period fixed by law.[7] In 1893, following the overthrow of the monarchy, the Republic declared that Crown Lands were Government property and part of the public domain.

As to lands which were overlooked in the Mahele and thus unassigned, the question arose whether they were Crown or Government Lands. This court in Thurston v. Bishop, 7 Haw. 421 (1888), adopted the position that such unassigned lands remained part of the public domain.[9]

Following the Mahele, portions of the public domain were sold from time to time in order to provide landless citizens with land and to obtain revenues for public expenditures. Purchasers of these lands were issued documents called Grants or Royal Patent Grants.

This encapsulation of the origin and development of the private title in Hawaii makes clear the validity of the basic proposition in Hawaiian property law that land in its original state is public land and if not awarded or granted, such land remains in the public domain.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 6:24:14 PM EDT
[#27]
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Oh hey USGS set up an actual live stream at the summit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlP-8JiKOS8
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Looks like its calmed down a bit.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 6:51:10 PM EDT
[#28]
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Looks like its calmed down a bit.
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This was in the video a few posts up.

Shows earthquake activity seems to have a pattern.

At the peak each day there has usually been an explosive eruption.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 6:56:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 7:00:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Kīlauea Volcano — UAS Over Lower East Rift Zone
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 7:24:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Dawn overflight
https://vimeo.com/273803713
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 7:26:32 PM EDT
[#32]
They are saying it takes heavy equipment and hydroponic hammers to clear lava. I'd think hammers grown in regular soil would be good enough.
Attachment Attached File


link
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 8:30:18 PM EDT
[#33]
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They are saying it takes heavy equipment and hydroponic hammers to clear lava. I'd think hammers grown in regular soil would be good enough.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468293/hydrohammer-567821.JPG

link
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MICLIC charges on pahoehoe make it look like someone put in a gravel road.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 8:38:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Don’t know if I missed it but, did the geothermal power plant survive? Last I saw were some pumps and an outlying warehouse being consumed
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 9:09:15 PM EDT
[#35]
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They are saying it takes heavy equipment and hydroponic hammers to clear lava. I'd think hammers grown in regular soil would be good enough.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468293/hydrohammer-567821.JPG

link
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Just move it off the road while it's still hot

Cat® 973 Steel Mill Track Loader Handles the Heat
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 9:21:43 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:

Just move it off the road while it's still hot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2d2e_12f2k
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I'm pretty sure they meant hydraulic hammers, not hydroponic.
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 9:24:56 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:

I'm pretty sure they meant hydraulic hammers, not hydroponic.
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Hawaii spellcheck aint like mainland spellcheck.  
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 10:28:29 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:

Hawaii spellcheck aint like mainland spellcheck.  
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Jak-hamma Brah!
Link Posted: 6/6/2018 11:58:22 PM EDT
[#39]
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Don't know if I missed it but, did the geothermal power plant survive? Last I saw were some pumps and an outlying warehouse being consumed
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It's pretty much intact.  A couple wells got covered and some nonessential outbuildings and storage areas got it too.  All the actual power generating bits are fine ... with only those wells needing to be dug out at some point.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 1:12:15 AM EDT
[#40]
I'd say there's a good chance the HVO visitor center's days are numbered, and it's a pretty small number, too.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 1:20:31 AM EDT
[#41]
As of a hour ago civil defense was giving us warnings. They didn't say what for but we can figure it out.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 8:26:03 AM EDT
[#42]
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I'd say there's a good chance the HVO visitor center's days are numbered, and it's a pretty small number, too.
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My bet too.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 8:27:25 AM EDT
[#43]
Someone was asking earlier about how deep the crater is, 920ft  is deepest part.

Kīlauea Volcano — Thermal Map of Halema`uma`u Crater (June 6, 2018)
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 10:31:48 AM EDT
[#44]
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Someone was asking earlier about how deep the crater is, 920ft  is deepest part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIaq8FMTFuc
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That was me, and thanks! That LIDAR image is awesome and really shows the collapse
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 11:30:51 AM EDT
[#45]
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That was me, and thanks! That LIDAR image is awesome and really shows the collapse
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Someone was asking earlier about how deep the crater is, 920ft  is deepest part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIaq8FMTFuc
That was me, and thanks! That LIDAR image is awesome and really shows the collapse
You're welcome.

It's a pretty big hole, lol.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 11:31:11 AM EDT
[#46]
Kīlauea Volcano — Video Compilation of Lower East Rift Zone
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 12:08:12 PM EDT
[#47]
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So if you have a non-waterfront parcel and it gets covered by lava, you still own the entire parcel. The boundaries as defined by GPS coordinates are unchanged.

If you own waterfront property - even if your deed reads "the the mean high water line" or similar - you still own X acres and if lava extends the land so that the waterline is now hundreds of yards farther away... You do not gain acreage. And you lose your waterfront. On one hand I think that's fucked up - I own to the high water mark, so I still own to the high water mark. If all that filled in was 20' of sand, nobody would dispute the claim. Now that it's 500' of lava, all of a sudden I no longer own to the water? That's not cool.

I can see both sides of the argument. Buying property in an area where there have been multiple lava flows every century for thousands of years is a risky proposition.
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I grew up along the ohio river in southern IN & KY. The river has changed course over the years...several miles in some places.

The land which was originally IN on the north side of the river, and KY on the south side of the river, has a date. Since that date the course or the river has moved. The state boundaries on those original dates have not changed, but now they are on the other side of the river. Near Evansville, IN the course of the Ohio has shifted south leaving that original boundary. Now there are several thousand acres of KY which find themselves on the north side of the river.

This accretion has slowed considerably since the flood control dams were built, but it is still happening.

A fairly amazing example of how these rivers change course can be seen on Google Earth along the Mississippi where it's course has shifted generally east many miles. The old river course(s) can me clearly seen in many areas long the Arkansas/Tennessee border. The area between West Memphis and Forrest City, AR has multiple old courses which are pretty apparent.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 12:18:42 PM EDT
[#48]
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Hawaii spellcheck aint like mainland spellcheck.  
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Link Posted: 6/7/2018 3:07:42 PM EDT
[#49]
June 21st-22nd is when the lava will subside. Placing a friendly wager on it, since all my personal computer models are showing a 34 hour shift to extremely low levels of 100-125 Cubic Meters.

Okay.... my computer model is a guesstimate and gut feeling.
Link Posted: 6/7/2018 3:59:07 PM EDT
[#50]
USGS Status Update of Kīlauea Volcano - June 7, 2018
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