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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:12:45 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We already are. We are just dragging it out. That works in the case of a cold war. But if we believe the cause of ending the suffering of the Ukrainians is a worthy one, and I think it is, what we are doing is prolonging the war. My argument is that while good dudes like Hiram and others think that is the motivation...I don't think our actions support that conclusion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You want US to fight the Russians? We are just dragging it out. That works in the case of a cold war. But if we believe the cause of ending the suffering of the Ukrainians is a worthy one, and I think it is, what we are doing is prolonging the war. My argument is that while good dudes like Hiram and others think that is the motivation...I don't think our actions support that conclusion. Wait, when did I become a “good dude?” you take that back! |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:15:35 AM EDT
[#2]
We really need a WWIII forum
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:18:56 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What? You do realize the Ukrainians have mastered flight and even have jet fighters and people that can fly said jet fighters? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Cool. If they send their best to the US today, they will be able to fight in A-37s in about 3 years. If they send their best to the US today, about 20% of them will be ready to fight in an F-16 about 5 years. What? You do realize the Ukrainians have mastered flight and even have jet fighters and people that can fly said jet fighters? Well no, you see, they have to wait for the kids to graduate flight school in a Cessna and then maybe move up to a jet trainer, and then go train on an F-16.  I’m guessing pilots that have already mastered flying a fighter jet might be able to deploy them in combat with a year of intensive training. Probably a lot of simulator time to make the fatal errors and learn from them and then transition to B models with a US instructor and a fast op tempo. My guess is they would probably spend more time focusing on ground attack and less on ACM since the Russians won’t have a lot of birds they’d want to dance with. That’s just my wild ass guess though. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:20:11 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the goal is to stop the violence, the solution is to surrender Crimea and get peace. If the goal is to keep our Remington 700 we should agree to give up our AR-15s… pass |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:26:21 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, when did I become a "good dude?" you take that back! |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:28:32 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Portugal doesn't count. I didn't know Poland and Romania had vipers. Lockmart sells the shit out of those things. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Poland, Portugal, Belgium, Norway, Romania Lockmart sells the shit out of those things. I’m curious if it tool Polish and Romanian pilots five years to become mission ready? And the standards we hold pilots to during peacetime may not be the same as the Ukrainians would during war time. Nobody is suggesting giving them birds right off the assembly line. There are plenty in mothballs or ready to be decommissioned. The Ukrainians will no doubt lose pilots, but that is something they are prepared to accept. So am I as it is THEIR self determination as a nation. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:41:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious if it tool Polish and Romanian pilots five years to become mission ready? And the standards we hold pilots to during peacetime may not be the same as the Ukrainians would during war time. Nobody is suggesting giving them birds right off the assembly line. There are plenty in mothballs or ready to be decommissioned. The Ukrainians will no doubt lose pilots, but that is something they are prepared to accept. So am I as it is THEIR self determination as a nation. Poland must have instructor pilots that transitioned from MIGs...that could help too. I doubt it'll happen right away, the tanks are this quarters escalation. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 1:15:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know this may not be a popular factoid but NATO agreed to stay off of Russia's borders after the USSR broke up. The USA pushing Ukraine NATO membership plus getting Ukraine to surrender their nuclear weapons caused all this shit. USA crossed a line and Russia did stupid Russian shit because the USA broke a promise trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Basically the "word" of the USA doesn't mean shit because we have pulled out or fucked over everyone we promised to help every time since the Korean War. It's amazing to me that any country we make a treaty with takes us seriously at all. We literally wasted American blood for 20 years to remove the Taliban only to hand the country back to them on a silver platter. What was the point of that. Not one American life was worth that whole shitbox of a country. The only high side to all this is at least the US military is getting some world class logistics training on moving our gear worldwide. Should be a good warm up for when that fucking Winnie the Pooh commie decides to get froggy with Taiwan. That will be the next upcoming shit show.  You are correct. Also we took an efficient money laundering operation set up for the dems and pubs in Ukraine and brought it to the next level. Now we can launder a trillion dollars. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 2:47:42 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Realistically, they need to subcontract a wing of EF-18 Growlers to be on-station round the clock. The Mig-29s and SU-27s the Ukrainians have are good enough, but they need something to suppress the Russian AAA. Hell, what they need is a retrofit kit for Migs and Sukois to use the HARM missiles and do some Wild Weasel shit. If they really want to be gangster, pull the EA-6 Prowlers out of mothballs, train up some UAF crews on how to use them and send em out. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 3:04:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are correct. Also we took an efficient money laundering operation set up for the dems and pubs in Ukraine and brought it to the next level. Now we can launder a trillion dollars. He is not correct. What agreement was signed, again? Please name the treaty and signatories. What money is being laundered? Be specific. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 4:49:35 AM EDT
[#11]
Only older models and export models due to tech. Some AiM-9N or earlier, Python AA missiles. No semi current tech.
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Posted: 1/26/2023 5:27:27 AM EDT
[#12]
I am not 100% sure, but damn near that Ukraine is not going to get F16's. It would be a lot more than "just the jets" that they need to make the whole operation work. They will need parts, tools, support vehicles. ect.
Given that, I don't think that they would be able to field them as correctly and as needed. A lot of maintenance will have to be done with the required flight hours that is needed. Also, there are articles saying we sent this amount of money and that amount. Does anyone actually really know how the money is actually spent? We are not just going to ship 100 billion in cash to Ukraine. What we are doing is sending Ukraine our older gear/items, then using those funds to replenish and replace our stocks with new shit. I work for a company that has DOD contracts in the aerospace/aviation industry, we already had to sign a few NDA's on what we are replacing. For every million being spent, maybe 50k of it gets sent to Ukraine in cash. Now on to the next part of this. I don't hate Ukrainians or Ukraine for that matter. My issue is with Ukraine's government, they are 100% fucked up kind of crooked. I have spent a lot of time in Ukraine over the years, I have met some great people there and met some bad. Like any other country in the world, there is good and bad. But I will not judge a population off of their puppet government and I will not judge the good off of the actions of the bad. Of the maybe 20 or so Ukrainians that I actually know, none want to leave their country and live in America for the beloved gringo dollar or citizenship. If you are finding people that are just looking for a way to get to America, then you are looking in the wrong places and for the wrong thing. I am not defending the Ukraine Bros or Ukrainians, I am just speaking from what I know. Now yes, I do give the Ukraine Bros some shit here ands there, but it is all in a good ribbing and poking fun. Agree or disagree, do as you please... I am not one to care about what people say and think about me. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 5:36:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: “Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has asked since March for American-made F-15 and F-16 fighter jets.”https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-now-getting-western-tanks-looking-at-fighter-jets-next-2023-1?amp https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/76C19D47-81FB-460B-9014-00282CFBAFCF_jpe-2685100.JPGhttps://thehill.com/homenews/3830293-ukraine-will-now-push-for-f-16-fighter-jets-government-adviser-says/amp/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/4BF86650-0E64-4BE0-84F3-E8D97308A823_jpe-2685122.JPG Who is going to fly these planes? It’s takes a minimum of three months to just learn the basics and if that is only if they have prior flight experience. Sooooooo, who is going to pilot these planes? Russians and Chinese were in migs over Korea and Vietnam. If they were caught it would have escalated the war. Same risk today. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 5:42:08 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: War or having their country erased by the Russians tough choice. I have said it before Never thought I would see people on the right talking shit about people that are fighting for their countries right to even exist. It’s Europes problem to throw money at, not ours. We are BROKE ! |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 5:57:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is going to fly these planes? It’s takes a minimum of three months to just learn the basics and if that is only if they have prior flight experience. Sooooooo, who is going to pilot these planes? Russians and Chinese were in migs over Korea and Vietnam. If they were caught it would have escalated the war. Same risk today. Ukrainain pilots have been training since the summer. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 5:58:13 AM EDT
[#16]
All the bravado about how "Ukraine is beating Russia" become just talk when we see stuff like this and the despair to send more and more advanced weaponry to fight the Russians.
Of course, there's the part about many making a lot of money every time the US sends stuff over there, since large percentages go the usual suspects' pockets. But there's also the undeniable elephant in the room that Ukraine is taking a serious beating and needs much better stuff than they currently have in order to stand a chance. After all, why does Ukraine needs F-16s, F-15s, Abrahams, and lots more, if they were "easily winning", as some here and in the lapdog MSM keep boasting? |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 6:00:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup according to deep thinkers here in GD the military has gone woke and is controlled by liberals that hate America and no way they would let their children enlist bla bla bla. Why would they not want to disarm them? Unless of course they dont want them weapons used on someone they support Just like clockwork, the “you support Russia” insinuation. Clever, Bro. 
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Posted: 1/26/2023 6:28:03 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the bravado about how "Ukraine is beating Russia" become just talk when we see stuff like this and the despair to send more and more advanced weaponry to fight the Russians. Of course, there's the part about many making a lot of money every time the US sends stuff over there, since large percentages go the usual suspects' pockets. But there's also the undeniable elephant in the room that Ukraine is taking a serious beating and needs much better stuff than they currently have in order to stand a chance. After all, why does Ukraine needs F-16s, F-15s, Abrahams, and lots more, if they were "easily winning", as some here and in the lapdog MSM keep boasting? Ukraine turned Putin’s 3 day war and drive to Kyiv into 11 months and pushed them back across the country. Now they’re in trench warfare with essentially static lines and the game needs to be changed. The war has changed over the last 11 months and it needs to be fought differently for Ukraine to retake all their occupied territory. But yes, russia went in expecting a welcome party and parades in the capital and got their asses kicked all the way back to the salt mines |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 9:26:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Fuck Russia,
Don't start nothing, won't be nothin'. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 9:48:01 AM EDT
[#20]
I remember PedoJoe calling this a minor incursion.
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Posted: 1/26/2023 9:54:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Sure, why not?
We're flushing our country away for a 3rd world trailer park. May as well go all in. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 9:58:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure, why not? We're flushing our country away for a 3rd world trailer park. May as well go all in. We’ve pretty much passed the point of any chance of a recovery. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 10:13:07 AM EDT
[#23]
F16s at minimum.
We (Canuckistan) just bought a bunch of F35s. We should send them our F18 Super Hornets. NATO should fly F22/F35s in long range, stand-off roles. Let's really get a good test bed going. We can keep this part hush hush. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 10:48:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many F4s in storage? |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 10:52:37 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Realistically, they need to subcontract a wing of EF-18 Growlers to be on-station round the clock. The Mig-29s and SU-27s the Ukrainians have are good enough, but they need something to suppress the Russian AAA. Hell, what they need is a retrofit kit for Migs and Sukois to use the HARM missiles and do some Wild Weasel shit. If they really want to be gangster, pull the EA-6 Prowlers out of mothballs, train up some UAF crews on how to use them and send em out. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 10:57:26 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They have every right to fight for their country. But my country is broke, so they don't have a right to use my tax dollars to do it. This. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 10:58:04 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We’ve pretty much passed the point of any chance of a recovery. I agree. May as well have some fun with it at this point. The only bittersweet silver lining is that a few of us will get the satisfaction of saying "told you so". |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:29:47 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That guy upstream was me. I took the F4G Weasel track as an EWO. About 3 years to mission ready. Then the AWACS pilot track to AC on a national asset. About another 3 years. But hey, what do I know. This is the GD, where everyone is a genius. Wild Weasel...very cool! 'YGBSM'! I got to sit in an F-4 that was being converted to a target drone at DM once. Man, was that cockpit tight compared to the Hawg! I could practically do calisthenics in our cockpit in comparison. Yeah, you try to point the uninitiated toward a little enlightenment...but you can't fix stupid! ATTACK! |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:30:23 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the bravado about how "Ukraine is beating Russia" become just talk when we see stuff like this and the despair to send more and more advanced weaponry to fight the Russians. Of course, there's the part about many making a lot of money every time the US sends stuff over there, since large percentages go the usual suspects' pockets. But there's also the undeniable elephant in the room that Ukraine is taking a serious beating and needs much better stuff than they currently have in order to stand a chance. After all, why does Ukraine needs F-16s, F-15s, Abrahams, and lots more, if they were "easily winning", as some here and in the lapdog MSM keep boasting? If Ukraine wasn't beating Russia, Ukraine would be fully under Russian control. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:32:25 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well no, you see, they have to wait for the kids to graduate flight school in a Cessna and then maybe move up to a jet trainer, and then go train on an F-16. I’m guessing pilots that have already mastered flying a fighter jet might be able to deploy them in combat with a year of intensive training. Probably a lot of simulator time to make the fatal errors and learn from them and then transition to B models with a US instructor and a fast op tempo. My guess is they would probably spend more time focusing on ground attack and less on ACM since the Russians won’t have a lot of birds they’d want to dance with. That’s just my wild ass guess though. Your WAG is  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:39:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. May as well have some fun with it at this point. The only bittersweet silver lining is that a few of us will get the satisfaction of saying "told you so". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We’ve pretty much passed the point of any chance of a recovery. I agree. May as well have some fun with it at this point. The only bittersweet silver lining is that a few of us will get the satisfaction of saying "told you so". I wish it would only spiral into some kind of bad comedy, but I’m afraid it will be more akin to a straight up horror show. We are poised to see death, destruction & suffering on a level never before seen in human history. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:39:23 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They have every right to fight for their country. But my country is broke, so they don't have a right to use my tax dollars to do it. This. 100%. Can we fight for some of our rights and freedoms in the good ol' USA and let the Russians and Ukrainians figure their own shit out please? |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:42:50 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The oldest least capable vipers in the world are probably ours in the air guard units. Most foreign forces bought theirs after we stopped buying them. Our air guard pilots typically have lots of hours and are probably some of the best Viper drivers out there. Send them to Poland to train the Ukrainians, then just leave the planes. Poland must have instructor pilots that transitioned from MIGs...that could help too. I doubt it'll happen right away, the tanks are this quarters escalation. Several countries still operate A model F-16s. The Air Force, to include the ANG, only fly C/D models. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:52:09 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well no, you see, they have to wait for the kids to graduate flight school in a Cessna and then maybe move up to a jet trainer, and then go train on an F-16. I’m guessing pilots that have already mastered flying a fighter jet might be able to deploy them in combat with a year of intensive training. Probably a lot of simulator time to make the fatal errors and learn from them and then transition to B models with a US instructor and a fast op tempo. My guess is they would probably spend more time focusing on ground attack and less on ACM since the Russians won’t have a lot of birds they’d want to dance with. That’s just my wild ass guess though. Your WAG is /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/deOINby-52.gif I guess we'll see when those pilots are flying Vipers. If it is within the next 6-12 months or if it is 3-5 years from now. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:58:32 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Several countries still operate A model F-16s. The Air Force, to include the ANG, only fly C/D models. Who's still flying As? |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 11:58:41 AM EDT
[#36]
No.
NATO's objective is to contain the war in Ukraine. Aircraft would by used by Ukraine to strike targets within Russia and they've already made that clear by using drones and other weapons they have to launch strikes into Russia already. Although Ukraine has not used HIMARs or other NATO equipment to accomplish the strikes they conducted to date into Russia it's too great a risk of escalation . Surface to Air Missile system are more than adequate to protect ground forces and helicopters could provide close air support. When you factor in missiles, rockets, and artillery Ukraine should have adequate resources to support their ground forces. What we could do is provide Polish MIG-29s to Ukraine by giving Poland F-16s to replace them. Those MIG-29s would just be "replacements" for the lost Ukraine aircraft and I think would present less a risk of escalation. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:00:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Is the level of competency we demand in our air combat training programs really the same as needed to fight off vodka russians? Like Ukraine doesn't have A2A refueling capbilities so that could be nixed from the syllabus.
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:17:11 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow I figured the As were all targets by now. Block 40/42 are our oldest? Who's still flying As? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Several countries still operate A model F-16s. The Air Force, to include the ANG, only fly C/D models. Who's still flying As? Netherlands alone has about 200. Saw Vador do their demo routine in one a few years ago. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:39:40 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess we'll see when those pilots are flying Vipers. If it is within the next 6-12 months or if it is 3-5 years from now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well no, you see, they have to wait for the kids to graduate flight school in a Cessna and then maybe move up to a jet trainer, and then go train on an F-16. I’m guessing pilots that have already mastered flying a fighter jet might be able to deploy them in combat with a year of intensive training. Probably a lot of simulator time to make the fatal errors and learn from them and then transition to B models with a US instructor and a fast op tempo. My guess is they would probably spend more time focusing on ground attack and less on ACM since the Russians won’t have a lot of birds they’d want to dance with. That’s just my wild ass guess though. Your WAG is /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/deOINby-52.gif I guess we'll see when those pilots are flying Vipers. If it is within the next 6-12 months or if it is 3-5 years from now. You're not getting it. You can put an experienced pilot from another airframe in the F16 and he will be able to take off and land, go from point A to point B, and drop a bomb with minimal training, but he will not be proficient and will not use the F16 to its fullest ability most likely just make another smoking crater in the Ukrainian countryside. So now you killed a pilot, lost an airframe and contributed very little to the war effort. Without a combined air effort with proficient aircrew, you are just wasting lives, time, and money against the Russian IADS. You actually have a pilot and a back seater in this thread telling you this. It would be better if we gave aide in other ways. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:47:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I can understand that. I just worry about Russia deciding to pop off a nuke because they’re taking so many losses and getting pissed at the west. I have no problem with Ukraine killing Russians and hope they continue to do it. I just want to stop funding them with our money. We are sending cold war weapons in storage instead of spending the money to demil the old shit. We aren't sending pallets of cash, we are sending weapons we paid for 15 years ago, and are paying to store it now. The US is putting a money value on this closet cleaning, and that is where the "money" comes from. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:52:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How long until Russia decides that canned sunshine is a good plan? Right after they forget we will end them if they try it. We spend more on nuke maintenance than they spend on their entire military. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:53:52 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can only push so far before Russia will push back in a big way. For every measure, there is a countermeasure. This is unwise. When the US was supplying the Muj in Afghanistan, they were careful to supply just enough to keep the Russians from winning, but not too much that would enable the Muj to dominate or actually export war. We should take that lesson to heart...just enough to keep Russia from winning...nothing more. Please lay out the plans for how you accomplish this? |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:55:31 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that what they're getting, fighters destined for the shredder ? We are using F16's as target drones, so yes, pretty much. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:57:40 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, that means endless suffering for the population of Ukraine. Not acceptable. Russia can pull back at any time and the bloodshed ends on both sides. They were the aggressor. They are slaughtering civilians en mass. Only fighting them to a stalemate means they will fight longer and more people will die, more homes destroyed, more children orphaned. Back down to Russia and Iran, North Korea, China, Venezuela, and every other despot will know that they can win by refusing to respect the laws of war and threatening WMDs if anybody tries to intervene. Not looking for our troops to be over there fighting the Russians, but I'm all for training the Ukrainians and arming the with the equipment needed to defang the bear. That's coming from the same yahoo who thinks it's ok for the feds to bulldoze citizens homes. He doesn'r seem to be so hars against the russians though. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 12:59:15 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't forget anything. Yes, that's is in there. What are the ramifications in the agreement when Russia doesn't do that. Nothing... It was a shit agreement to begin with. Russia is threatening the world with nukes and there have been many meetings. Yeah, since they have had nukes. Nothing new. Been facing it my whole lifetime, and the threat is no worse now than before. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 1:03:25 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where do they plan on flying them back to for maintenance? Fighters, especially old ones, break a lot and require a lot of parts and trained maintenance personnel. Probably to an airfield. The Ukrainians are not the same as the goat fucking retards we wasted trillions on over a couple of decades. They supply other countries with jet and rocket engines, and were the brains behind most of the soviet and later russian tech. They can fix fighters and tanks. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 1:04:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not getting it. You can put an experienced pilot from another airframe in the F16 and he will be able to take off and land, go from point A to point B, and drop a bomb with minimal training, but he will not be proficient and will not use the F16 to its fullest ability most likely just make another smoking crater in the Ukrainian countryside. So now you killed a pilot, lost an airframe and contributed very little to the war effort. Without a combined air effort with proficient aircrew, you are just wasting lives, time, and money against the Russian IADS. You actually have a pilot and a back seater in this thread telling you this. It would be better if we gave aide in other ways. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well no, you see, they have to wait for the kids to graduate flight school in a Cessna and then maybe move up to a jet trainer, and then go train on an F-16. I’m guessing pilots that have already mastered flying a fighter jet might be able to deploy them in combat with a year of intensive training. Probably a lot of simulator time to make the fatal errors and learn from them and then transition to B models with a US instructor and a fast op tempo. My guess is they would probably spend more time focusing on ground attack and less on ACM since the Russians won’t have a lot of birds they’d want to dance with. That’s just my wild ass guess though. Your WAG is /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/deOINby-52.gif I guess we'll see when those pilots are flying Vipers. If it is within the next 6-12 months or if it is 3-5 years from now. You're not getting it. You can put an experienced pilot from another airframe in the F16 and he will be able to take off and land, go from point A to point B, and drop a bomb with minimal training, but he will not be proficient and will not use the F16 to its fullest ability most likely just make another smoking crater in the Ukrainian countryside. So now you killed a pilot, lost an airframe and contributed very little to the war effort. Without a combined air effort with proficient aircrew, you are just wasting lives, time, and money against the Russian IADS. You actually have a pilot and a back seater in this thread telling you this. It would be better if we gave aide in other ways. I get exactly what you are saying... in a perfect world X. They're not dealing with a perfect world and yes they know that deploying relatively green pilots in high tech jets will come with risks and loses. Clearly they've done the calculus and that is a risk they are willing to accept, and it appears the US is willing to give them the platform. Nobody argued that they will be able to fly it to its full capability, nor would they have the support to dominate the environment. They are fighting for their lives and existence and will use whatever means are necessary and available to them. And nobody is doubting you that there are better approaches, but this is where we are. They want it, we're apparently willing to give it, and we'll prepare them to the best of our ability within the operational and time constraints. I think we all agree that you don't fight wars with what you wish you had, you fight them with what you do have. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 1:05:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fine by me, they had them and we convinced them to give them up. Bet Russia would have thought twice if Ukraine was still nuclear capable and had the means to deliver them. Fuck if we allow North Korea to have them, and Iran to develop them, why not Ukraine? They were the world's 3rd largest nuclear power at the break up of the soviet union. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 1:06:47 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow I figured the As were all targets by now. Block 40/42 are our oldest? Who's still flying As? I think the Vermont AG was the last with the block 30s, but I am not an AF dude. |
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Posted: 1/26/2023 1:08:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm amazed how many here cheerlead for this obvious grifting scheme. Hunter, The Big Guy and the rest of the Dems made and continue making bank on this. Sure they are. Show us how it works with proof. |
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