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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:17:25 PM EDT
[#1]
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Soooooooo? would the ship ever catch up to the light? would the light ever really leave the ship? would light travel faster than the speed of light? is it like dividing by zero? What would happen? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now, if you had instead asked about a spaceship traveling at the speed of light turning on its headlights, that would have been an interesting question. Relative to any observer aboard the craft, or elsewhere, the speed of the light would still be C. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:17:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there drag in a fighters gun barrel? Forget "Mach", I guess I shouldn't have used that term. Could an aircraft be flying at a speed where a bullet wouldn't have the ability to leave the barrel of its gun? I'm not being a smartass, I am just wondering. Nope, unless you get a squib! The faster the jet goes, the more energy is going into the projectile while it's "relatively at rest". It's still got a ton of kinetic energy at even Mach 3+ Then add MORE energy with the propellant and you get the velocity stack-up. After the bullet it fired out of the jet though, it will start slowing as the jet keeps a constant velocity, and as others have already posted, there was an occurrence where a fighter pilot fired his cannon, then went into a dive and intersected his rounds going down range  |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:18:07 PM EDT
[#3]
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That's the one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was a plane that actually shot itself down. It fired its cannon level, and then entered a shallow dive, and managed to get under its own bullets, IIRC. Grumman F11F, if my memory isn't off. Some engineer wasn't thinking ahead, when the flight test of the prototype was planned. The sequence was to test the cannons by firing (while flying level at subsonic speeds), then enter a shallow dive and accelerate to supersonic. Pulled out of the dive just in time to shoot itself down. That's the one. What year did this happen, and did the pilots survive? |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:18:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Did you realize that aircraft taking off in a westward direction actually slow the Earths rotational velocity?
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:19:21 PM EDT
[#5]
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I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? Are you suddenly wondering about self-propelled bullets? |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:19:25 PM EDT
[#6]
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Did you realize that aircraft taking off in a westward direction actually slow the Earths rotational velocity? 
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:19:36 PM EDT
[#7]
If I'm on a plane traveling at mach 1 or above and I fire a subsonic bullet from a suppressed handgun toward the front of the plane, does the bullet make a crack?
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:20:14 PM EDT
[#8]
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I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? By being incredibly dense... |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:20:19 PM EDT
[#9]
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If I'm on a plane traveling at mach 1 or above and I fire a subsonic bullet from a suppressed handgun toward the front of the plane, does the bullet make a crack? 
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:20:26 PM EDT
[#10]
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I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? At the moment that you push yourself off the nose, you will be moving at 753 mph, Drag may then slow you down, but that's another variable, |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:21:48 PM EDT
[#11]
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What year did this happen, and did the pilots survive? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was a plane that actually shot itself down. It fired its cannon level, and then entered a shallow dive, and managed to get under its own bullets, IIRC. Grumman F11F, if my memory isn't off. Some engineer wasn't thinking ahead, when the flight test of the prototype was planned. The sequence was to test the cannons by firing (while flying level at subsonic speeds), then enter a shallow dive and accelerate to supersonic. Pulled out of the dive just in time to shoot itself down. That's the one. What year did this happen, and did the pilots survive? 21 September 1956. The test pilot survived (the demon didn't get him  ) but crash landed.
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:22:41 PM EDT
[#12]
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If I'm on a plane traveling at mach 1 or above and I fire a subsonic bullet from a suppressed handgun toward the front of the plane, does the bullet make a crack? NO GD is like physics kindergarten, at Choose Time, after a week of rain. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:22:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? You stated you stepped out at 3mph then questioned your ability to step out at 3mph... This is physics, not debate. The bullet would immediately begin to decelerate upon exiting the barrel due to drag, but it would leave the barrel at bullet velocity + plane velocity. What you're not wrapping your mind around is the bullet, relative to the plane, moves forward at the normal bullet velocity. But relative to the ground it's flying at it's normal velocity plus the initial velocity it was moving at with the plane. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:23:39 PM EDT
[#14]
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By being incredibly dense... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? By being incredibly dense... Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:24:01 PM EDT
[#15]
If the fighter is doing 300kts, and the gun isn't firing, how fast are the bullets in the magazine traveling?
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:24:27 PM EDT
[#16]
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Did you realize that aircraft taking off in a westward direction actually slow the Earths rotational velocity? Dammit, I meant speed up!
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:32:52 PM EDT
[#17]
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Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? By being incredibly dense... Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? Not dumb, just dense.
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:34:42 PM EDT
[#18]
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Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? By being incredibly dense... Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? LOL. No, he's saying that you'd need to be incredibly dense to not be blown away at 570mph. As in, LITERALLY dense. Mass/volume kinda dense. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:37:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? By being incredibly dense... Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:40:10 PM EDT
[#20]
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Are you looking to be offended for some reason? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? By being incredibly dense... Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? Yeah, you nailed it...... |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:40:13 PM EDT
[#21]
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At the speed of light, time stops moving forward due to time dilation. If a spaceship moving at C were to fly to a star 65 light years away from its launch point, 65 years would elapse relative to the launching pad but to the crew, the voyage would be instantaneous. Time slows down relative to actual time. 65 light years at C would take 65 years. Back on the launching pad it would be thousands of years. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:40:49 PM EDT
[#22]
I am afraid to read the thread...
ETA: Yep. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:43:57 PM EDT
[#23]
OP (& others) need to understand that the cannon or machine gun does not care where it is or what speed it is traveling pointed in whatever direction.
When it is fired the projectile will react normally as if it was stationary until it leaves the barrel where drag and Doppler effect the path of the shot, velocity, gravity, drag + angular momentum all take effect regardless of what the platform that carried the cannon is doing. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:44:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, you nailed it...... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? Yeah, you nailed it......  |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:44:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Bullet speed would be aircraft speed plus whatever velocity added by the charge behind the round...
...up to the point in this model where if the velocities were increased to a point, atmospheric friction melts the bullet, then the globules would have more surface area for their mass and slow quickly. Fluid dynamics get funny when something can superheat the air around it to a plasma state like spacecraft re-entry. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:46:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? Vfinal=(V747+Vwalking)/(1+(V747Vwalking/c2)) |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:47:25 PM EDT
[#27]
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? Relative to who? |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:54:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Velocity of Plane (1100 fps) + Velocity of Bullet at muzzle (3000 fps)= 4100 fps (speed of bullet for one split second till aerodynamics take over).
Immediately leaving the barrel the bullet will be going fast, but losing velocity as soon as it leaves the barrel. Since the plane has the power to keep it's speed the plane will catch the bullet eventually. So, yes a plane can shoot itself down if it comes into the path of it's own bullets. Ground observer will see bullet going 4100 fps and the plane will see it going 3000 fps. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:56:43 PM EDT
[#29]
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Relative to who? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? Relative to who? Whom. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:57:18 PM EDT
[#30]
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Newtonian physics allows to the addition of velocities with the proviso that even in a pure vacuum, there is a minute deficit to the addition of velocity, which increases as the object firing the projectile increases it's own velocity and becoming significant as relativistic velocities are achieved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Thou shalt not add thy velocity to the speed of light. Same principle applies here. Newtonian physics allows to the addition of velocities with the proviso that even in a pure vacuum, there is a minute deficit to the addition of velocity, which increases as the object firing the projectile increases it's own velocity and becoming significant as relativistic velocities are achieved. This isn't correct. Classical mechanics don't work that way. |
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Posted: 5/17/2015 11:59:37 PM EDT
[#31]
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Initial muzzle velocity, plus the aircraft's forward velocity at the moment of firing, then minus effects of atmospheric drag, acceleration of gravity taken into account. superfluous correction (for most) |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:01:14 AM EDT
[#32]
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Does that mean if you put a flash light on the front of an aircraft going at Mach 4, that the light coming out from the front of the flash light will be going at the speed of light+Mach 4? ...effectively FASTER than the speed of light? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Since the bullets are stationary relative to the motion of the aircraft they will be going the same speed of the aircraft. When they are fired you add the increased velocity to the now fired projectile.
Does that mean if you put a flash light on the front of an aircraft going at Mach 4, that the light coming out from the front of the flash light will be going at the speed of light+Mach 4? ...effectively FASTER than the speed of light? Sure, why not?
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:05:23 AM EDT
[#33]
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You are standing in the back of a bus going 100mph. You throw your fastest pitch (say 70 mph) at the windshield. Does the ball just drop to the ground? No. It moves towards the windshield at 70 mph. Since the bus is going 100 already the ball moves at 170 mph as seen from the outside of the bus. Or you are in an airliner going 500mph. You walk to the front at 1 1/2 mph to use the bathroom. Your velocity is 500 mph plus 1.5 mph = 501.5 mph as seen from the outside of the airplane. 501.5 mph relative to a stationary observer, with no wind effects on the plane. or 1.5 mph relative to the carper on the floor of the airplane. ETA: When the bullet hits the air at "hyper speed" it will experience more drag. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dang, all these answers and only two of them serious! So all you physics experts that think I am stupid, can you dumb it down just a LITTLE bit to explain what will happen? You are standing in the back of a bus going 100mph. You throw your fastest pitch (say 70 mph) at the windshield. Does the ball just drop to the ground? No. It moves towards the windshield at 70 mph. Since the bus is going 100 already the ball moves at 170 mph as seen from the outside of the bus. Or you are in an airliner going 500mph. You walk to the front at 1 1/2 mph to use the bathroom. Your velocity is 500 mph plus 1.5 mph = 501.5 mph as seen from the outside of the airplane. 501.5 mph relative to a stationary observer, with no wind effects on the plane. or 1.5 mph relative to the carper on the floor of the airplane. ETA: When the bullet hits the air at "hyper speed" it will experience more drag. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:07:31 AM EDT
[#34]
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In the flawed Galilean universe, yes that's true. But in the reality of special relativity, it's not quite correct. A small niggle, but if you apply the same principle to faster objects the flaws become serious. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Velocity of aircraft + velocity of projectile ETA: Damn...TWO seconds
In the flawed Galilean universe, yes that's true. But in the reality of special relativity, it's not quite correct. A small niggle, but if you apply the same principle to faster objects the flaws become serious. Can we say "small niggle" on this board? |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:09:47 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Velocity of Plane (1100 fps) + Velocity of Bullet at muzzle (3000 fps)= 4100 fps (speed of bullet for one split second till aerodynamics take over). Immediately leaving the barrel the bullet will be going fast, but losing velocity as soon as it leaves the barrel. Since the plane has the power to keep it's speed the plane will catch the bullet eventually. So, yes a plane can shoot itself down if it comes into the path of it's own bullets. Ground observer will see bullet going 4100 fps and the plane will see it going 3000 fps. http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:09:51 AM EDT
[#36]
Oh, the GD science train. The only winners are the ones that don't look.
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:09:53 AM EDT
[#37]
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Did you realize that aircraft taking off in a westward direction actually slow the Earths rotational velocity? But the flight coming back in the opposite direction adds the velocity back in. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:11:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Velocity of Plane (1100 fps) + Velocity of Bullet at muzzle (3000 fps)= 4100 fps (speed of bullet for one split second till aerodynamics take over). Immediately leaving the barrel the bullet will be going fast, but losing velocity as soon as it leaves the barrel. Since the plane has the power to keep it's speed the plane will catch the bullet eventually. So, yes a plane can shoot itself down if it comes into the path of it's own bullets. Ground observer will see bullet going 4100 fps and the plane will see it going 3000 fps. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:11:50 AM EDT
[#39]
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Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? By being incredibly dense... Not sure what you mean? Is that an insult meaning I'm dumb? The denser the object stepping out is, the less effect the blast has on it, compared to a less dense object of the same size and shape. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:18:38 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, but because of damage by bullets getting sucked into the engines or the plane hitting the bullet at high speed, not ballistic damage by the bullet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Velocity of Plane (1100 fps) + Velocity of Bullet at muzzle (3000 fps)= 4100 fps (speed of bullet for one split second till aerodynamics take over). Immediately leaving the barrel the bullet will be going fast, but losing velocity as soon as it leaves the barrel. Since the plane has the power to keep it's speed the plane will catch the bullet eventually. So, yes a plane can shoot itself down if it comes into the path of it's own bullets. Ground observer will see bullet going 4100 fps and the plane will see it going 3000 fps. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:24:34 AM EDT
[#41]
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I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are in the back of a 747 that is travelling at 570 mph, and you start to walk at a rate of 3 mph to the front of the plane. How fast are you travelling? I am in the front of a 747 with an open nose traveling at 570 MPH and I step out at a rate of 3 MPH, how fast am I traveling? How do I even overcome the blast of a 570 MPH wind bearing down on me? I see this is too complicated for you to think about aircrafts. have your buddy drive by your house, hold a ball out the window, and drop it when he goes by. does the ball fall straight down or does it continue bouncing down the road in the direction the car was going? |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:25:56 AM EDT
[#42]
Velocity is cumulative although the higher projectile speed also means more drag on projectile. The effect is it leaves the cannon faster buts slows at a faster rate.
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:26:44 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What difference does it make? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Velocity of Plane (1100 fps) + Velocity of Bullet at muzzle (3000 fps)= 4100 fps (speed of bullet for one split second till aerodynamics take over). Immediately leaving the barrel the bullet will be going fast, but losing velocity as soon as it leaves the barrel. Since the plane has the power to keep it's speed the plane will catch the bullet eventually. So, yes a plane can shoot itself down if it comes into the path of it's own bullets. Ground observer will see bullet going 4100 fps and the plane will see it going 3000 fps. Semantics really. When saying 'shot down' it sounds like the bullets are striking the plane with ballistic force but in reality it's more like running through debris in the air. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:27:05 AM EDT
[#44]
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So a rear firing weapon's projectile is going faster in reverse than forward. Does it drop like a stone or get sucked after the plane?  Mind blown 
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:27:31 AM EDT
[#45]
What if the cheap gunshow aircraft auto canon reloads have a highly variable velocity?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRQswKjgF0E&feature=player_detailpage Thread needs medical marijuana. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:28:41 AM EDT
[#46]
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Now, if you had instead asked about a spaceship traveling at the speed of light turning on its headlights, that would have been an interesting question. 
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:30:03 AM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:33:06 AM EDT
[#48]
The projectile sitting in the chamber of the gun is motionless in relation to the chamber, barrel, etc.
If the muzzle velocity of the projectile is 2,800 fps, the muzzle velocity is 2,800 fps regardless of the aircraft velocity. Show me an equation that demonstrates a .50 cal projectile, or any other, gains an additional 2,000 fps by being fired from an aircraft traveling at such speed. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:35:02 AM EDT
[#49]
So according to physics, if my plane is flying 2000fps and my bullet is fired rearward at 2000fps, the bullet would just remain where it left the barrel, and begin falling straight down???
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:35:52 AM EDT
[#50]
A gun has the simple effect of adding velocity, whether 0 to 4000fps or 4000fps to 8000fps, doesn't matter, the power charge adds a static amount to the current velocity of the bullet.
Unfired, the bullet is literally part of the plane, so it has the planes velocity. Once it leaves the barrel, it is no longer propelled by the plane, but still retains the velocity of the plane, plus the power charge until wind drag slows it down. |
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