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Posted: 12/24/2012 6:06:33 AM EDT
[#1]
... open ended question, but if the pilot had the ability to choose mission and aircraft survivability equipment available to varied customers, the AH-64/E would win hands-down
Ten fold if MUMT-2 is utilized |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 6:19:33 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Would get raped as well Quoted:
Eurocopter Tiger FTW!  Hell , I figured the only reason a Cobra and an Apache would tangle is to see who gets to fuck the Tiger first. 
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Posted: 12/24/2012 6:34:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Holy faggotry Batman.
This thread is gayer than two dudes fucking. Honestly? The Cobra would win. Why? Cobra guys are trained in ACM. Apache guys arent. We dont carry the Stinger anymore. None of us. In the end, the Kiowa sneaks in and wins when both the 64 and Cobra PL or break on start 
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Posted: 12/24/2012 7:09:24 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
In the end, the Kiowa sneaks in and wins when both the 64 and Cobra PL or break on start 
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Posted: 12/24/2012 7:28:04 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Who would win, CH-47 or CH-53? Guess my answer... |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 7:35:11 AM EDT
[#6]
pretty sure the cobra is the only one with a confirmed A2A kill
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Posted: 12/24/2012 7:52:09 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As an Army aviator I have flown the AH1G, AH1Q, and the AH1S Corbras and the AH64 and AH64 Long Bow Apaches. The AH64 Long Bow Apache wins hands down in all categories. You are disqualified from participating in a discussion on this subject in GD...since you actually know what the fuck you're talking about.  Comparing an Army Cobra to a Marine Corps Zulu Cobra is like comparing an F-5 to a SuperHornet. Apples and onions. It's a little unfair compairing a single engined Cobra to a twin engined Apache anyway. Besides the gun, what other air to air armament does the AH-1F (S,Q,M,P,G) carry? As spoken to me by an honest to God Army Cobra pilot (and DS Vet)  ... with the F model, you also have a power issue as well. Strictly speaking air-to-ground, you can carry rockets and 4 Tows, or no rockets and 8 Tows.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 11:52:45 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Who would win, CH-47 or CH-53? Guess my answer... CH-47 crashes within 25 minutes of take-off and the CH-53 just never takes off. 
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:20:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Who would win, CH-47 or CH-53? Guess my answer... CH-47 crashes within 25 minutes of take-off and the CH-53 just never takes off. You never shut down a 53 on a LZ, for fear it won't start back up. |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:30:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Mi24 hind.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:33:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Give me a fleet of Air Hogs and I can whoop y'alls asses!!
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:36:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Cobra wins in the looks department.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:37:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
As an Army aviator I have flown the AH1G, AH1Q, and the AH1S Corbras and the AH64 and AH64 Long Bow Apaches. The AH64 Long Bow Apache wins hands down in all categories. You are disqualified from participating in a discussion on this subject in GD...since you actually know what the fuck you're talking about. Comparing an Army Cobra to a Marine Corps Zulu Cobra is like comparing an F-5 to a SuperHornet. Apples and onions. It's a little unfair compairing a single engined Cobra to a twin engined Apache anyway. Besides the gun, what other air to air armament does the AH-1F (S,Q,M,P,G) carry? As spoken to me by an honest to God Army Cobra pilot (and DS Vet) ... with the F model, you also have a power issue as well. Strictly speaking air-to-ground, you can carry rockets and 4 Tows, or no rockets and 8 Tows.The Cobras in use by the Marines have two engines... |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:40:49 PM EDT
[#14]
I think he was refering to the fact that Viper66 is using his experience in Army Cobras to determine its inferiority to the Apache.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:40:50 PM EDT
[#15]
 Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
As an Army aviator I have flown the AH1G, AH1Q, and the AH1S Corbras and the AH64 and AH64 Long Bow Apaches. The AH64 Long Bow Apache wins hands down in all categories. You are disqualified from participating in a discussion on this subject in GD...since you actually know what the fuck you're talking about. Comparing an Army Cobra to a Marine Corps Zulu Cobra is like comparing an F-5 to a SuperHornet. Apples and onions. It's a little unfair compairing a single engined Cobra to a twin engined Apache anyway. Besides the gun, what other air to air armament does the AH-1F (S,Q,M,P,G) carry? As spoken to me by an honest to God Army Cobra pilot (and DS Vet) ... with the F model, you also have a power issue as well. Strictly speaking air-to-ground, you can carry rockets and 4 Tows, or no rockets and 8 Tows.Ok, time to bring out the big gun questions and clarifications. Back to the original question of ------"Let's just say we had two equal pilots/gunner pairs, one pair in a Super Cobra, and the other in an Apache. Which one would win?" What is the criteria and environment are we addressing? Best looking cool factor and style points? Air to air combat? Air to ground combat? Total payload carried? Types of armament carried? Hellfire missiles, Supersonic rockets, 20mm vs 30mm, A2A missiles, etc. Avionic capability? NVG, FLIR, Thermo, IR, etc. site capability? Cruise speed vs NTE speed? Total mission range to include capability/capacity to hang external aux wing tanks? Mid air refueling? Tires vs skids? Service ceiling? Mission capable vs partial mission capable readiness rate? Maintenance time to overhaul? Sounds like we need a DoD "fly off " and evaluation phase that would emulate a major procurement acquisition including flight agility and envelop testing, jungle, desert and arctic environment testing, weapon platform testing, combat survivability testing, maintenance testing, etc. I was not trying to compare a single engine army cobra with a AH-1E, that would be suicidal, but establish the fact that I have experience as an army aviator having flown these aircraft. So, in the long run I am only half qualified to discuss this topic without the Marine AH-1Z Cobra twin engine experience. I have a lot of respect for the Marine AH-1Z Cobra and it's devastating capability. Each aircraft was designed for different multi-role missions and definitely different funding sources, i.e., R&D vs enhancements or major upgrades. One could review that tech specs of each aircraft and compare. Of course there is always that chance, probably hitting the lottery are better odds, that we would have several Army aviators on this forum that have flown the Marine AH-1Z Cobra and several Marine aviators that have flown the Army AH-1E Apache and get an actual hands-on opinion. And, not to mention both Army and Marine crew chiefs and other related maintenance personnel that have worked on both airframes to chime in on this thread.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 2:05:03 PM EDT
[#16]
There was a flyoff between the AH-64D and the AH-64A when they bought the D in, and the criteria was that they'd get a group of each and they would fight a comparable armored unit at NTC (or some other large force on force training area). The scoring was how fast and the number of enemy destroyed vs survivability. As expected, the Longbow killed significantly more enemy, faster, and with less losses.
With the focus on air to air combat that some of you want to look at, the discussion is silly. Which is a better cargo aircraft, the F-22 or the F-15C? Just as silly. |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 4:17:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Air to Air? What kind of gay, faggotry, homosex, butt pirate, dookie packing, brown eye licking kinda question is this?
answer... I don't know. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:39:23 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
As an Army aviator I have flown the AH1G, AH1Q, and the AH1S Corbras and the AH64 and AH64 Long Bow Apaches. The AH64 Long Bow Apache wins hands down in all categories. You are disqualified from participating in a discussion on this subject in GD...since you actually know what the fuck you're talking about. Comparing an Army Cobra to a Marine Corps Zulu Cobra is like comparing an F-5 to a SuperHornet. Apples and onions. It's a little unfair compairing a single engined Cobra to a twin engined Apache anyway. Besides the gun, what other air to air armament does the AH-1F (S,Q,M,P,G) carry? As spoken to me by an honest to God Army Cobra pilot (and DS Vet)  ... with the F model, you also have a power issue as well. Strictly speaking air-to-ground, you can carry rockets and 4 Tows, or no rockets and 8 Tows.TOW is the most capable ATA weapon on the aircraft. It's slow, and it's constraints aren't the greatest for ATA, but it has range is guided, and things like jammers and flares don't matter. The Hellfire used on today's Apache and Cobra are easily more capable because it's supersonic and has much better range. With either, it's going to be who sees who first. The rockets can work. You can also fire them in different numbers, like pairs, quads, salvos, so you can put alot of rockets in the air, and getting a hit isn't as out of the question as it might look like at first glance. There is also the multiple sub-munition anti-armor rocket, which goes a long friggin way and will rain bomblets down on a target. The situation would have to be right to use them though. The gun is far more capable ATA than most aircraft guns are. The gun is flexible, in that it can be aimed and with stabilized fire control. It can be aimed off-axis by either crew's helmet sight, or you can use the magnified sight. You can designate a target for the gunner by just looking at it, and the gunner can use the magnified sight to ID and engage the target a LONG ways off. Much farther than you can with the MK1 eyeball. In fact, except for Rate of Fire, you have a better AAA system than the old Vulcan Air Defense System. In a "dogfight", the aimable gun and helmet sight come into it's own. You have the radio. Again, it's not like jet vs jet. You may have things like Stinger teams, Patriot, ground unit direct fire, fixed wing, artillery, drones, etc. to kill enemy aircraft with. Remember what happened to the Red Baron. The situation, even the perfromance of the aircraft isn't much different. That's just the old Army Cobra. Once you get into the newer stuff, there's better capability. I don't think the Army has explored air-to-air using the drone control capability of the Block III 64D yet. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:53:11 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As an Army aviator I have flown the AH1G, AH1Q, and the AH1S Corbras and the AH64 and AH64 Long Bow Apaches. The AH64 Long Bow Apache wins hands down in all categories. What about maintenance man hours per flight hour? Major repair work is actually easier to do on the Apache because it has a more maintenance friendly design. I think the Cobra design is a bit more maintenance friendly for minor work. Just remember that they have to stuff all that new fangled stuff in those airframes, and the acess panels will invariably be in the wrong place on both. It's just life for the guy working on them no matter what service. They are both complicated aircraft. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking they aren't. The Marines have 50 years of institutional memory, training, and logistics backing the Cobra and Huey that has evolved through the ages with the birds. That tends to count for a lot from what I hear. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 4:06:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I played BF2 and the Cobra can do hovering barrel rolls all day long and pwn bitches... even if Nick Cage was flying the Apache. All actors can fly any helicopter
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Posted: 12/25/2012 4:15:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Holy faggotry Batman. This thread is gayer than two dudes fucking. Honestly? The Cobra would win. Why? Cobra guys are trained in ACM. Apache guys arent. We dont carry the Stinger anymore. None of us. In the end, the Kiowa sneaks in and wins when both the 64 and Cobra PL or break on start To be FAIR, we're trained in DACM.....in other words, how the fuck can I survive the merge and get the fuck away without getting shot
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Posted: 12/25/2012 4:25:50 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Holy faggotry Batman. This thread is gayer than two dudes fucking. Honestly? The Cobra would win. Why? Cobra guys are trained in ACM. Apache guys arent. We dont carry the Stinger anymore. None of us. In the end, the Kiowa sneaks in and wins when both the 64 and Cobra PL or break on start To be FAIR, we're trained in DACM.....in other words, how the fuck can I survive the merge and get the fuck away without getting shot As a F/A-18 friend says, their solution is to drop a Mk82 on the rotor's predicted path. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 4:37:17 AM EDT
[#23]
Cobra. All Marine are riflemen..
..even when it's a 20mm and flying in rotary winged aviation. Sorry Army, we got you on this
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Posted: 12/25/2012 4:47:58 AM EDT
[#24]
AH-1Z has a three-barreled 20mm gatling gun, Sidewinder capability, is lighter, thinner frontal profile and crews have a lot of recent combat experience.
AH-64D has a single-barreled 30mm chain gun, radar, Sidewinder capability, heavy armor, and crews also have a lot of recent combat experience. Close in gun fight would go to the Cobra. Lighter (more maneuverable), higher fire rate on the gun, and crews appear to have more experience getting up close and personal to their targets. Long range goes to the Apache's radar. Provided the gun can be used A2A with radar fire control, the Cobra wouldn't stand a chance, as there are no countermeasures for bullets except trying to stay out of their path. If the Cobra has radar missile detection, and appropriate counter measures, it could theoretically defeat a radar hellfire. Both choppers have IR countermeasures, so the Sidewinders may not be 100% effective. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 5:42:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Cobra. All Marine are riflemen.. ..even when it's a 20mm and flying in rotary winged aviation. Sorry Army, we got you on this Yet we are trained to use our M4 from the cockpit as an offensive weapon.
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Posted: 12/25/2012 11:54:47 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As an Army aviator I have flown the AH1G, AH1Q, and the AH1S Corbras and the AH64 and AH64 Long Bow Apaches. The AH64 Long Bow Apache wins hands down in all categories. You are disqualified from participating in a discussion on this subject in GD...since you actually know what the fuck you're talking about. Comparing an Army Cobra to a Marine Corps Zulu Cobra is like comparing an F-5 to a SuperHornet. Apples and onions. It's a little unfair compairing a single engined Cobra to a twin engined Apache anyway. Besides the gun, what other air to air armament does the AH-1F (S,Q,M,P,G) carry? As spoken to me by an honest to God Army Cobra pilot (and DS Vet) ... with the F model, you also have a power issue as well. Strictly speaking air-to-ground, you can carry rockets and 4 Tows, or no rockets and 8 Tows.The Cobras in use by the Marines have two engines... Agreed, but Viper66 was giving the Apache the upper hand while comparing it to the single engined Army models. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:08:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
AH-1Z has a three-barreled 20mm gatling gun, Sidewinder capability, is lighter, thinner frontal profile and crews have a lot of recent combat experience. AH-64D has a single-barreled 30mm chain gun, radar, Sidewinder capability, heavy armor, and crews also have a lot of recent combat experience. Close in gun fight would go to the Cobra. Lighter (more maneuverable), higher fire rate on the gun, and crews appear to have more experience getting up close and personal to their targets. Long range goes to the Apache's radar. Provided the gun can be used A2A with radar fire control, the Cobra wouldn't stand a chance, as there are no countermeasures for bullets except trying to stay out of their path. If the Cobra has radar missile detection, and appropriate counter measures, it could theoretically defeat a radar hellfire. Both choppers have IR countermeasures, so the Sidewinders may not be 100% effective. Theoretically, both have a Longbow radar. .jpg)
But we're really being theoretical here, since neither is likely to be carrying Air-to-Air weaponry, and both are likely to run and call a look-down-shoot-down fast mover. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:26:20 PM EDT
[#28]
I've never worked with Apaches, but I've spent countless hours under the watchful eye of cobra/huey teams and never once have I seen them run from a fight. Actually, they seem to like getting right into the thick of things. Hope you Apache dudes are the same way.
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:30:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Can a cobra carry air to air missiles? I know an Apache can. 
The AH-64D currently utilized by the U.S. Army does not carry air-to-air missiles. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:44:10 PM EDT
[#30]
only way the apache would go down is if the cobra's debris hit it
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:45:39 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Apache would win hands down. Faster More maneuverable Stealthier Better Armament Army>Marines Can it carry an AIM-9? Helicopter dogfights!
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Posted: 12/25/2012 3:57:58 PM EDT
[#32]
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Apache, since it can actually hit what the pilot is aiming at with the cannon.  I have seen enough dead guys from 20mm hit to know the gun is more than accurate enough. I've read that the aeral gunnery from a Zulu is pretty good too. Better than the 30mm from the Apache. How would it fare against tanks though? |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 4:21:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
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Quoted:
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Apache, since it can actually hit what the pilot is aiming at with the cannon. I have seen enough dead guys from 20mm hit to know the gun is more than accurate enough. I've read that the aeral gunnery from a Zulu is pretty good too. Better than the 30mm from the Apache. How would it fare against tanks though? Has the US done much tank busting in recent years? Of for that matter is the 30mm gun on an AH very effective against tanks? |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 8:46:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
I've never worked with Apaches, but I've spent countless hours under the watchful eye of cobra/huey teams and never once have I seen them run from a fight. Actually, they seem to like getting right into the thick of things. Hope you Apache dudes are the same way. Never turn a fight down, the government did not pay us to bring the ordnace back to base! |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 8:53:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Apache, since it can actually hit what the pilot is aiming at with the cannon. I have seen enough dead guys from 20mm hit to know the gun is more than accurate enough. I've read that the aeral gunnery from a Zulu is pretty good too. Better than the 30mm from the Apache. How would it fare against tanks though? Has the US done much tank busting in recent years? Of for that matter is the 30mm gun on an AH very effective against tanks? I wouldn't know, that is why I am asking.
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Posted: 12/25/2012 8:53:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: I've never worked with Apaches, but I've spent countless hours under the watchful eye of cobra/huey teams and never once have I seen them run from a fight. Actually, they seem to like getting right into the thick of things. Hope you Apache dudes are the same way. Watching Cobra's run SEAD missions in 2003 was pretty bad ass. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:06:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:Army>Marines
Wait to you pop on you piss test, because you must be high.
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:12:15 PM EDT
[#38]
No... Army is > Marines, literally
Quoted: Quoted:Army>Marines Wait to you pop on you piss test, because you must be high. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:14:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've never worked with Apaches, but I've spent countless hours under the watchful eye of cobra/huey teams and never once have I seen them run from a fight. Actually, they seem to like getting right into the thick of things. Hope you Apache dudes are the same way. Watching Cobra's run SEAD missions in 2003 was pretty bad ass. Dayum. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:14:19 PM EDT
[#40]
The Cobra wouldnt even know what killed him. AH-1 is a cool ground support aircraft, but the AH-64 is so far beyond it in terms of capabilities its not even in the same class.
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:16:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
The Cobra wouldnt even know what killed him. AH-1 is a cool ground support aircraft, but the AH-64 is so far beyond it in terms of capabilities its not even in the same class. Somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but: AH-1Z is used for CAS, which would include intercepting enemy rotor-wing threats. AH-64D is used/was designed as a tank killer. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:18:17 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:22:32 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Cobra wouldnt even know what killed him. AH-1 is a cool ground support aircraft, but the AH-64 is so far beyond it in terms of capabilities its not even in the same class. Somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but: AH-1Z is used for CAS, which would include intercepting enemy rotor-wing threats. AH-64D is used/was designed as a tank killer. I suspect that if any helo, anywhere in the world, ever had to engage in an air to air fight, things have gone horribly, horribly wrong and several mistakes were made by everyone in the AO. But I could be wrong.
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:22:55 PM EDT
[#44]
I've always thought the Cobra was a cool looking bird.
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:30:49 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm going to go with this.
Quoted:
No guys, the BV-347 would win.
http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/history/aircraft/A_Models/65-07992/347b.jpg http://travelforaircraft.files.wordpress.com/6011/06/blog-ch-47-alar_mg_9385.jpg |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:41:00 PM EDT
[#46]
HAHA GOOD FUNNY THREAD AS YOU SAY BUT NOW WE MUST LOOK AT WORLDS TRUE PREMIER ATTACK HELICOPTER. YES OF COURSE THIS IS MI-28N HAVOC, WHICH WAS INFERIORLY COPIED BY AMERICANS TO MAKE APACHE. (CUTE LITTLE CANNON ON APACHE, LIKE SCHOOLGIRLS AND PUPPIES. HAVOC OF COURSE MOUNTS SAME CANNON AS OBYECT 680 APC.)     |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:41:06 PM EDT
[#47]
I watched AH64s fire 30mm and 2.76 in. rockets this summer during their gunnery, and in support of SOCOM training for a certain spec ops unit that will remain unnamed. The Apaches (ANG) were accurate enough with cannon and rocket fire for the SF fellers to stand well inside the SDZ for the weapons being fired into a MOUT target array. I wasn't even part of Range Control, and I wanted to talk to a lawyer just seeing how fucking close those rounds were impacting to the operators on the ground. Crazy.
I was really surprised just how damned loud an unguided 2.76 in rocket is. The 30mm cannon has a pretty good rate of fire for a single-barrel weapon, too. I know pilots from both communities. "The "snake" drivers are good at what they do, as are the Army RW aviators. Being a crunchy on the ground, I wouldn't really care who was giving me CAS, but our system seems more integrated with other supporting arms than what I'm used to seeing in an Army aviation unit. I spent a total of five years on the east coast at MCB CamLej, and I can't remember once when the Cobras were firing into the G10 impact area without being part of a larger exercise involving FW of some kind, Arty, mortars, and the FACs / JTACs / DASCs and whatever other agencies are involved when providing CAS to a ground unit. The Long Bow is an impressive helo, but I wouldn't dismiss the capabilities of a Marine Cobra by any means. Cobras have been carrying A2A missiles since the '80s IIRC. That gives the Cobra some capability against Hinds and other attack helicopters at least. I like that. |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:50:56 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: The Cobra wouldnt even know what killed him. AH-1 is a cool ground support aircraft, but the AH-64 is so far beyond it in terms of capabilities its not even in the same class. Care to explain the difference in capabilities? Because, you know, it's not like the Cobra is the same as it was in the 70's. In fact, the Z probably has a lot of newer stuff in it than the 64-d! |
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:58:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Cobra wouldnt even know what killed him. AH-1 is a cool ground support aircraft, but the AH-64 is so far beyond it in terms of capabilities its not even in the same class. Care to explain the difference in capabilities? Because, you know, it's not like the Cobra is the same as it was in the 70's. In fact, the Z probably has a lot of newer stuff in it than the 64-d! Not to mention a lot more recent combat experience for the crews
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Posted: 12/25/2012 9:59:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: HAHA GOOD FUNNY THREAD AS YOU SAY BUT NOW WE MUST LOOK AT WORLDS TRUE PREMIER ATTACK HELICOPTER. YES OF COURSE THIS IS MI-28N HAVOC, WHICH WAS INFERIORLY COPIED BY AMERICANS TO MAKE APACHE. (CUTE LITTLE CANNON ON APACHE, LIKE SCHOOLGIRLS AND PUPPIES. HAVOC OF COURSE MOUNTS SAME CANNON AS OBYECT 680 APC.) http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/mil_mi28_havoc_l7.jpg http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/500/Mi-28.jpg http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/mil_mi28_havoc_l2.jpg http://fullhddesktop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/mi-28n-helicopter-1920x1200.jpg Does it retain the Mi-24 auto-crash pilot? |
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