Quoted:
Andrew Branca, "The Law of Self Defense"

Chapter 9

"Tell the responding officers exactly what you told 911:
1. Your name
2. Your location
3. Three specific sentences about what happened and why:
a. I was attacked
b. I was in fear for my life (my family, etc).
c. I had to defend myself.

4. Identify exculpatory evidence and witnesses.

Remember, the jury is only going to arrive at their verdict based on the evidence.  If a piece of evidence goes missing, it does not exist for legal purposes. It becomes speculation.

Good cases of self defense do not suffer from too much evidence.  The suffer from too little evidence.  More evidence is good for the good guys.

So what kind of evidence should you make when you interact with responding officers?

Evidence that will help your narrative.  What the law refers to as exculpatory evidence.  And for the most part exculpatory evidence comes on the form of objects and witnesses.  And you need exculpatory evidence secured.  If it isn't, part of your story becomes speculation, which doesn't exist for legal purposes.

If a thug attacks you with a knife, and as you shoot him that knife goes flying into a bush, tell the responding officers to go look in that bush.  If you don't and the knife isn't recovered, it doesn't exist for legal purposes.  Given the knife justifies your actions, failing to recover it would be devastating to your legal defense.

If all you say is "I want my lawyer" you let that exculpatory evidence disappear. I can assure you that your lawyer is not going to think you are a legal genius for following the advice of a Youtube video to "never talk to the police".

Massad Ayoob
"Conventional wisdom — and many a concealed-carry instructor — says that you should clam up when police arrive at the scene and refuse to say anything without your attorney present, because “police are not your friends” in that situation.

Defensive shooting expert Massad Ayoob disagrees.

Massad Ayoob offers a five-point checklist of things to cover with the police instead of just clamming up:

Establish the active dynamic. This means letting the investigators know what the bad guy did to force you to use your firearm against him. This establishes you as the victim.
Reinforce that by stating you will testify against the bad guy — and Ayoob says the wording of that may be “a little bit tricky.” Don’t say “I’ll press charges,” because in some areas only prosecuting attorneys can press charges. Instead, say “I will testify against him/them.” This strengthens your position as victim.
Point out the evidence. Preserve it if possible; which can be difficult when medical and other personnel are running around disturbing the scene.
Point out the witnesses. I know from experience that witnesses don’t always get interviewed or even have a statement taken at the scene; do your best to make it easy for officers, so the witnesses can back up your story.
Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."

Also, "if you were attacked by multiple bad guys and one or more of them get away — and you say nothing to the police so they don’t know that 1) you were facing multiple threats when you used your firearm for self defense and 2) there are some bad guys at large — that doesn’t help your case in the least."

So, Andrew Branca and Massad Ayoob are uninformed idiots?

Quoted:

Just ask for them instead of your lawyer then.

Quoted:


That's actually close to good advice.

I subscribe to a use of force legal service, so you can bet I'm contacting them first.

Quoted:

Hmmmm.....sounds amazingly like what most people in this thread have said.  Contact your legal advisor first.

Quoted:


If under the circumstances recommended by Branca and Ayoob, hopefully I'll be mentally capable of helping my legal defense, not putting it in greater jeopardy.

Do I need to post those again for you?

Quoted:


If under the circumstances recommended by Branca and Ayoob, hopefully I'll be mentally capable of helping my legal defense, not putting it in greater jeopardy.

Do I need to post those again for you?

Quoted:

You still have yet to cite any examples where remaining silent has put someone's legal defense in greater jeopardy.

You seem to repeat the same thing over and over, with no real world examples to back up your claim. I'm beginning to think you might be Massad Ayoob himself...

Quoted:


Simple question:

You have to fire your gun in self defense.

Your attacker throws the knife into the drainage ditch water, jumps into a car and hauls ass.

You call 911 and say only a short script recommended by who?

Responding officer arrives.

You don't talk to him:  "you don't talk to the police"?

You're the only person on the scene, you're armed (re-holstered), and you have I.D.

Do you say nothing to the police?

If so, what exactly what do you say?

Your name?

You will only speak with your attorney?

Whose script do you choose to follow or do you have one that you've practiced?

Anything else as they cuff you and put you in the car?

Quoted:
Even simpler, much shorter question.

Can you show us some cases where remaining silent cost an innocent person a conviction?

Quoted:


"My name is XYZ, I will be 100% cooperative but would like to have my lawyer present first".

The lawyer can meet me at the jail.

Quoted:


Simple question:

You have to fire your gun in self defense.

Your attacker throws the knife into the drainage ditch water, jumps into a car and hauls ass.

You call 911 and say only a short script recommended by who?

Responding officer arrives.

You don't talk to him:  "you don't talk to the police"?

You're the only person on the scene, you're armed (re-holstered), and you have I.D.

Do you say nothing to the police?

If so, what exactly what do you say?

Your name?

You will only speak with your attorney?

Whose script do you choose to follow or do you have one that you've practiced?

Anything else as they cuff you and put you in the car?

Quoted:
There you go.  You are trying to convince people to do something that goes against their legal counsels advice.  You might should bring some evidence to this fight if you want to change hearts and minds.

I will listen, but right now the people I contract with to assist me with legal bills and provide my legal counsel tell me to shut up until I talk to them.  

I THINK I WILL FOLLOW THEIR ADVICE, that I carefully reviewed and chose for a reason.

Quoted:


So, you leave the scene and call your attorney from the jail?

Is that right?

Quoted:


"My name is XYZ, I will be 100% cooperative but would like to have my lawyer present first".

The lawyer can meet me at the jail.

Quoted:

In this hypothetical example, the only thing I have to say is that my aim apparently sucks.

Why do all of your examples involve the attacker throwing away their weapon?

It seems to me the question of whether you shot before or after they threw away the weapon would have far more impact on the case than whether or not you waited to speak to your lawyer before answering their questions.

What exactly could you say to the officers to prove when you shot that couldn't wait until you've had a chance to speak with your lawyer?

Quoted:


As you should.

There's a lot of information out there to consider when it comes to self defense and keeping one's wits about them.

My legal council's advice tells me to not do anything to jeopardize my legal case and do it from the initial 911 call.

Quoted:


As you should.

There's a lot of information out there to consider when it comes to self defense and keeping one's wits about them.

My legal council's advice tells me to not do anything to jeopardize my legal case and do it from the initial 911 call.

Quoted:
In a situation where one has had to use deadly force to defend themselves (shot at someone who was attacking you)....

When the first PATROL officers arrive in response to the 911 call what kind of a fool would refuse to talk to them if:

1. the perp had tossed their weapon but you know exactly where it's located

2. you are certain who else witnessed the attack on you

3. you know the exact location of security cameras that have recorded the attack on you

4. the perp flees and you have a description of the vehicle, the license number, and the direction in which it left

5. you have a description of the perp

6. you have evidence (like a phone video) that can prove to the first arriving officers that you were the victim and acted in self defense

Really?  You're going to clam up and say nothing until you consult with an attorney?

There are TWO times when you typically "speak with law enforcement".

The first is "first on the scene patrol officers".  Know what to say and talk to them.

The second is the "investigation officers", and that's the time to lawyer up.

Why is this fundamental concept so difficult for people to understand?

Edited by request:

Andrew Branca, "The Law of Self Defense"

Chapter 9

"Tell the responding officers exactly what you told 911:
1. Your name
2. Your location
3. Three specific sentences about what happened and why:
a. I was attacked
b. I was in fear for my life (my family, etc).
c. I had to defend myself.

4. Identify exculpatory evidence and witnesses.

Remember, the jury is only going to arrive at their verdict based on the evidence.  If a piece of evidence goes missing, it does not exist for legal purposes. It becomes speculation.

Good cases of self defense do not suffer from too much evidence.  The suffer from too little evidence.  More evidence is good for the good guys.

So what kind of evidence should you make when you interact with responding officers?

Evidence that will help your narrative.  What the law refers to as exculpatory evidence.  And for the most part exculpatory evidence comes on the form of objects and witnesses.  And you need exculpatory evidence secured.  If it isn't, part of your story becomes speculation, which doesn't exist for legal purposes.

If a thug attacks you with a knife, and as you shoot him that knife goes flying into a bush, tell the responding officers to go look in that bush.  If you don't and the knife isn't recovered, it doesn't exist for legal purposes.  Given the knife justifies your actions, failing to recover it would be devastating to your legal defense.

If all you say is "I want my lawyer" you let that exculpatory evidence disappear. I can assure you that your lawyer is not going to think you are a legal genius for following the advice of a Youtube video to "never talk to the police".

Massad Ayoob
"Conventional wisdom — and many a concealed-carry instructor — says that you should clam up when police arrive at the scene and refuse to say anything without your attorney present, because “police are not your friends” in that situation.

Defensive shooting expert Massad Ayoob disagrees.

Massad Ayoob offers a five-point checklist of things to cover with the police instead of just clamming up:

Establish the active dynamic. This means letting the investigators know what the bad guy did to force you to use your firearm against him. This establishes you as the victim.
Reinforce that by stating you will testify against the bad guy — and Ayoob says the wording of that may be “a little bit tricky.” Don’t say “I’ll press charges,” because in some areas only prosecuting attorneys can press charges. Instead, say “I will testify against him/them.” This strengthens your position as victim.
Point out the evidence. Preserve it if possible; which can be difficult when medical and other personnel are running around disturbing the scene.
Point out the witnesses. I know from experience that witnesses don’t always get interviewed or even have a statement taken at the scene; do your best to make it easy for officers, so the witnesses can back up your story.
Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."

Also, "if you were attacked by multiple bad guys and one or more of them get away — and you say nothing to the police so they don’t know that 1) you were facing multiple threats when you used your firearm for self defense and 2) there are some bad guys at large — that doesn’t help your case in the least."

Quoted:


I'm only using examples offered by experts I respect, not myself.

Plus there's that common sense thing.  Not speaking with a responding officer in certain circumstances (Google them yourself) might not be in my best legal interest.

One size does not fit all.

Quoted:
NO, as soon as you call 911 and state " Hey my name is Lug1 I am at the Kroger on Main st.  I was the victim of a crime where somebody tried to kill me.  Please send the police and an ambulance", you hang up and call the number in phone before PD ever gets there and get that ball rolling.  Ideally you are talking to a lawyer on the phone when PD arrives, that is what my provider states their goal is.

Quoted:
We covered all this in the whole stress does weird things to you conversation.  Talking will jeopardize most peoples case if they are not completely consistent with every small detail.  

Your legal counsel will help you not make that mistake.

Quoted:
We covered all this in the whole stress does weird things to you conversation.  Talking will jeopardize most peoples case if they are not completely consistent with every small detail.  
Your legal counsel will help you not make that mistake.

Quoted:


Do they specific tell you there are no circumstances exist where giving any information to the responding officer might protect your legal rights?

Personally, I'd get that from them in writing, but that's just me.

Quoted:

Very interesting, as that is not what you've been advocating this entire thread.

Quoted:
I'm sure theres a few PD/SO officers on this site that can clarify, but if theres an officer involved shooting. Suspect is down/dead. Isnt that or those officers isolated and instructed to wait for the union provided lawyer before giving a breakdown of the events of the shooting?

Quoted:


Now you're changing the game.

Those taking issue with what I've posted emphatically are contending, "NEVER UNDER ANY CIRUMSTANCES SAY ANYTHING BEYOND WHAT YOU TOLD 911"

Quoted:

Yup! In your scenario Johnny Law has elected to separate me from the scene. I'll be 100% complaint and won't say a word until my lawyer is present.

Quoted:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/333874/Screenshot_2022-04-05_16_36_20-2338905.png

Is that good enough?

Quoted:


Reread my first post.

There are some circumstances (experts gave examples) where saying nothing can jeopardize your legal defense just as running your mouth could.

It's not an either/or proposition.

Quoted:


Ah the classic OP read stuff on the internet and is now smarter than the lawyers in this thread. Your lawyer will love you one day.

Quoted:


No.  It doesn't answer my question.

Quoted:


Yes and they also review body cam footage before giving a statement through their attorney. But OP knows better because he read stuff on the inter webs

Quoted:
You need to go back and read ALL MY POSTS again.

I have argued that the best advice is to lump everybody into the category that stress will effect you negatively therefore it is best to not open that can worms.  I have also argued that some people will do better than others, but its a very few people who hold up well.
Therefore without knowing before hand how it will turn out for you dealing with this kind of stress, it is better to just get legal counsel first.

You have still not proven that remaining silent negatively affects your case, so back at you there.  

You refuse to post a case where silence negatively impacted people.  

So yea, for broad multiple and unknown reasons, I think it is best if people get their legal counsel first.  YOU DO YOU.  No argument against your liberty.

Quoted:

So we’re back to presuming that the police are incompetent?

Quoted:

After a high stress incident it is far better to have somebody to speak on your behalf. This will allow you to address the adrenaline dump, physical, emotional, and other effects you're currently suffering.

On my 1st mortar strike, I panicked and an NCO grabbed me and dragged me back to sanity.
On my 2nd mortar strike, I was frightened but acted appropriately.
Somewhere between the 3rd and 30,000th mortar I became that NCO and calmly grabbed panicked privates and put them back to right.


You're asking untrained - and in some cases, trained - people to be able to identify the edge cases of the 1 in a million times where it is beneficial to talk to a cop when the rest of us are just trying to drag you out of the impact zone.

Quoted:


You and I both know that if I contact Branca and cite specific case law it will in no way affect what you already believe.

Quoted:


If you knew where your attacker's knife was located you'd just roll the dice on it being found in your defense?

I wouldn't.

Quoted:
Please sound out your question again so I will understand it better.

Disregard my statement that I am fairly smart.  Please treat me like a 3rd grader for this question.  

There are sender receiver issues going on here.  So lets try again.

Quoted:
I don't matter.

You are trying to change hearts and minds of people who are not as stalwart in their beliefs....maybe.  You want to change hearts and minds, and you bring NO EVIDENCE to the table.  

That is a tall order man.  I still have no argument with you going your own way should this ever happen to you.  But it is not ABSURD for me to wait on my counsel.