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My lawyer could tell them over the phone.

Whats wrong with that?

ETA: see how I actually gave your very unlikely circumstance its due credit.

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It's not about you personally.

It's a question that all of us who use self defense legal programs should ask.

"Do they specifically tell you there are no circumstances exist where giving any information to the responding officer might protect your legal rights?

Personally, I'd get that from them in writing, but that's just me."

I can venture a guess that you will never get that from them in writing.

The two examples already cited a great illustrations of how saying nothing to the responding officers could hurt your legal and civil defense.

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Sharing knowledge is a service, not a personal insult.

Just a few years ago (even though I've carried concealed for 50 years) I had very little information about my state's use of force laws.

That wasn't smart.

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I'd rather LEO know about evidence on the scene that would exonerate me and secure it before my lawyer got around to calling them.

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I am sorry you were negligent.

I try to stay up on that.  I am not ayoob or branca.  But I have prepared accordingly.  Thanks for the heads up.  Already on it.

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Cops are NOT your friend. Get a lawyer and speak thru them

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Actually, Branca is an in-demand, expert criminal defense attorney and his book, "The Law of Self Defense" is recognized as one of the best in the business.

I could type as if I was an attorney too, but I'm not.

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Again, you have not cited any examples of this actually happening. You have only offered hypothetical scenarios, all of which seem to involve the attacker throwing away their weapon and fleeing. Additionally, every scenario seems to presume that the police are too incompetent to find the weapon without you specifically pointing it out for them.

Why are you so terrified of this specific scenario?

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I guess you missed Ayoob's example.

Here ya go:

"Massad Ayoob offers a five-point checklist of things to cover with the police instead of just clamming up:

Establish the active dynamic. This means letting the investigators know what the bad guy did to force you to use your firearm against him. This establishes you as the victim.
Reinforce that by stating you will testify against the bad guy — and Ayoob says the wording of that may be “a little bit tricky.” Don’t say “I’ll press charges,” because in some areas only prosecuting attorneys can press charges. Instead, say “I will testify against him/them.” This strengthens your position as victim.
Point out the evidence. Preserve it if possible; which can be difficult when medical and other personnel are running around disturbing the scene.
Point out the witnesses. I know from experience that witnesses don’t always get interviewed or even have a statement taken at the scene; do your best to make it easy for officers, so the witnesses can back up your story.
Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."

And this second example
Also, "if you were attacked by multiple bad guys and one or more of them get away — and you say nothing to the police so they don’t know that 1) you were facing multiple threats when you used your firearm for self defense and 2) there are some bad guys at large — that doesn’t help your case in the least."


All that makes perfect sense to me, and I practice it.

Me?  Terrified?  

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Again, I don't see any real world examples, only hypothetical scenarios.



Does he cite any case where remaining silent actually harmed the victim's legal defense?

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Let's start with just one, shall we?

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That's not an answer to the question.

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He doesnt answer questions.

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Quiet, or he'll copy/paste his wall of text again!

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I guess you missed Ayoob's example.

Here ya go:

"Massad Ayoob offers a five-point checklist of things to cover with the police instead of just clamming up:

Establish the active dynamic. This means letting the investigators know what the bad guy did to force you to use your firearm against him. This establishes you as the victim.
Reinforce that by stating you will testify against the bad guy — and Ayoob says the wording of that may be “a little bit tricky.” Don’t say “I’ll press charges,” because in some areas only prosecuting attorneys can press charges. Instead, say “I will testify against him/them.” This strengthens your position as victim.
Point out the evidence. Preserve it if possible; which can be difficult when medical and other personnel are running around disturbing the scene.
Point out the witnesses. I know from experience that witnesses don’t always get interviewed or even have a statement taken at the scene; do your best to make it easy for officers, so the witnesses can back up your story.
Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."

And this second example
Also, "if you were attacked by multiple bad guys and one or more of them get away — and you say nothing to the police so they don’t know that 1) you were facing multiple threats when you used your firearm for self defense and 2) there are some bad guys at large — that doesn’t help your case in the least."

Quoted:

I guess you missed Ayoob's example.

Here ya go:

"Massad Ayoob offers a five-point checklist of things to cover with the police instead of just clamming up:

Establish the active dynamic. This means letting the investigators know what the bad guy did to force you to use your firearm against him. This establishes you as the victim.
Reinforce that by stating you will testify against the bad guy — and Ayoob says the wording of that may be “a little bit tricky.” Don’t say “I’ll press charges,” because in some areas only prosecuting attorneys can press charges. Instead, say “I will testify against him/them.” This strengthens your position as victim.
Point out the evidence. Preserve it if possible; which can be difficult when medical and other personnel are running around disturbing the scene.
Point out the witnesses. I know from experience that witnesses don’t always get interviewed or even have a statement taken at the scene; do your best to make it easy for officers, so the witnesses can back up your story.
Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."

And this second example
Also, "if you were attacked by multiple bad guys and one or more of them get away — and you say nothing to the police so they don’t know that 1) you were facing multiple threats when you used your firearm for self defense and 2) there are some bad guys at large — that doesn’t help your case in the least."

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We need a database here for attorneys who would be useful in a situation like this. I'd bet that many of us don't know where we would turn if we were involved in a use of force situation. I have a lawyer I've used a time or two but he absolutely is not a criminal defense attorney.

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Interesting how this topic continues to come up one way or another.

Interesting that a number of posters here would portray every self defense shooting where the victim spoke to the police as the victim being set up and charged with whatever the crime would be (agg. assault attempted murder, murder) by the police when it appears most self defense shootings don't go that way.  But hey a poster here even pointed out that LE are trained to get confessions, even if they are false.  

/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/GZHd6Sp-56.gif

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I'm a strong supporter of the police. I respect them, and very thankful I can call them in an emergency.

I lived in Mexico for 10 years. Mexican police are the enemy in most places. That said, I've had cops

lie to me more times than I can count. I appreciate them, but never trust them.

A little story: Years ago my friend was arrested for a DUI (DWI). He was arrested and refused everything (under my advice).

I was the main witness at his 3 day trial. All the police had to do was tell the truth, and my buddy was screwed. Their word against his = cops win.

Every police officer (there were 3 or 4) lied through their teeth at the trial. I'm not talking about little fibs. These guys were straight up psychotic liars.

It got to a laughable point the jury could trust nothing they said. My buddy walked...not guilty. I asked his attorney why on earth they lied. This was a done deal.

His response that I'll never forget was, "cops always lie".

This is why I wouldn't talk to the police.

Andrew Branca, "The Law of Self Defense"

Chapter 9

"Tell the responding officers exactly what you told 911:
1. Your name
2. Your location
3. Three specific sentences about what happened and why:
a. I was attacked
b. I was in fear for my life (my family, etc).
c. I had to defend myself.

4. Identify exculpatory evidence and witnesses.

Remember, the jury is only going to arrive at their verdict based on the evidence.  If a piece of evidence goes missing, it does not exist for legal purposes. It becomes speculation.

Good cases of self defense do not suffer from too much evidence.  The suffer from too little evidence.  More evidence is good for the good guys.

So what kind of evidence should you make when you interact with responding officers?

Evidence that will help your narrative.  What the law refers to as exculpatory evidence.  And for the most part exculpatory evidence comes on the form of objects and witnesses.  And you need exculpatory evidence secured.  If it isn't, part of your story becomes speculation, which doesn't exist for legal purposes.

If a thug attacks you with a knife, and as you shoot him that knife goes flying into a bush, tell the responding officers to go look in that bush.  If you don't and the knife isn't recovered, it doesn't exist for legal purposes.  Given the knife justifies your actions, failing to recover it would be devastating to your legal defense.

If all you say is "I want my lawyer" you let that exculpatory evidence disappear. I can assure you that your lawyer is not going to think you are a legal genius for following the advice of a Youtube video to "never talk to the police".

Massad Ayoob
"Conventional wisdom — and many a concealed-carry instructor — says that you should clam up when police arrive at the scene and refuse to say anything without your attorney present, because “police are not your friends” in that situation.

Defensive shooting expert Massad Ayoob disagrees.

Massad Ayoob offers a five-point checklist of things to cover with the police instead of just clamming up:

Establish the active dynamic. This means letting the investigators know what the bad guy did to force you to use your firearm against him. This establishes you as the victim.
Reinforce that by stating you will testify against the bad guy — and Ayoob says the wording of that may be “a little bit tricky.” Don’t say “I’ll press charges,” because in some areas only prosecuting attorneys can press charges. Instead, say “I will testify against him/them.” This strengthens your position as victim.
Point out the evidence. Preserve it if possible; which can be difficult when medical and other personnel are running around disturbing the scene.
Point out the witnesses. I know from experience that witnesses don’t always get interviewed or even have a statement taken at the scene; do your best to make it easy for officers, so the witnesses can back up your story.
Shut up. Tell the officer he or she can expect your full cooperation after you’ve spoken with an attorney."

Also, "if you were attacked by multiple bad guys and one or more of them get away — and you say nothing to the police so they don’t know that 1) you were facing multiple threats when you used your firearm for self defense and 2) there are some bad guys at large — that doesn’t help your case in the least."

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So you as a witness got to watch testimony given by other witnesses during a three day trial for a DUI?

Uh huh

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It all sounds good and reasonable and until a guy like John-in-Austin is the responding officer and you are fucked for life.

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Cops are NOT your friend. Get a lawyer and speak thru them

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It all sounds good and reasonable and until a guy like John-in-Austin is the responding officer and you are fucked for life. ???????

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The lawyer is paid to keep your ass out of jail. The cop is paid to put your ass in jail.

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Again, I don't see any real world examples, only hypothetical scenarios.
Does he cite any case where remaining silent until speaking with their lawyer has actually harmed the victim's legal defense?

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I’ve seen too many instances of cops acting evil. There’s no way I would trust a cop in a critical situation. Sucks, but it’s the truth.
Cops are hung up on drugs, time to let that go and prosecute the crimes, not the suspicion of crimes.

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I cited a real world example back on page 3: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Absurd-Advice-NEVER-Talk-To-The-Police/5-2543287/?page=3#i98094391

The shooter didn't remain silent.
The shooter didn't need a legal defense (because he wasn't arrested or charged, as a direct result of providing information about the intruder's weapon and its possible location).