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Posted: 12/9/2011 3:33:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
July 2008 I sent money to Ciener for a AK 47 22lr conversion, Today 11/23/11 I finally received my money back. That is 40 fucking months that peice of shit had my money and did everything he could do to cheat me out of it. He doesnt even make the AK conversion anymore and probably hasnt since before I ordered my conversion. I was probably one of the cases of complaints that was listed and he has started to send refunds to cover his ass. I hope he fucking dies a horrible death.  I sent him my $ for an AK kit in June 2007. Got the refund plus interest the other day. I own a couple of JAC AR conversions and a 1911 conversion and they all work great. I thought I knew what I was getting into when I purchased the kit, figured it might take a year or two to get it. I knew he was a total asshole but didn't think he was a crook. First time a met him was at Knob Creek, he was charging people 25 cents for his business cards! |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 4:22:46 PM EDT
[#2]
The guy took me for 350. I sent a M-10 conversion kit in to be repoared. He took money, sent it back and it never ran.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 4:50:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
. I thought I knew what I was getting into when I purchased the kit, figured it might take a year or two to get it. I have a 1911 kit, bought when they were allowed on ebay. Had the kit within a week. Obviously not direct from JAC. Based on what I have heard of other peoples' experiences, I recommended my brother in law order his Beretta 92 conversion from a secondary seller like Midway. They had them listed, but out of stock. It took Midway over 18 months to receive one to sell him, but his money wasn't sitting in limbo while he waited for his merchandise either. Good product, absolutely terrible customer service(Ciener, not Midway). I'm just hoping we'll be able to get spare magazines for our kits if/when he goes to prison. I know Kimber mags work for the 1911 kit, but for the Beretta he's pretty much all we've got. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 4:55:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
People always said he was an asshole, but I never heard he was a crook. I like his products and admire that he was kind of a trailblazer in the field. +1 He did alot for the AR-15 industry. I have one of his conversions, and it still runs like a bat out of hell. His design is undoubtedly the best. (Thank you CMMG, for making his design even better  )The Original design for the M16/AR15 was Atchisson from Dayton,Ohio. If he bought it or somehow inherited the rights I am not sure and over the years he also had kits for Ruger mini14 and several pistols . Who actually designed the other stuff I am not sure. I have bought quite a few AR15 kits over the years from other vendors and except for a couple of fireing pins that broke I have never had any problems . Never had any contact with the man. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 4:57:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Fuck ciener  im sure that will happen |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 5:00:52 PM EDT
[#6]
after all the screwing of his customers I think karma will make sure he gets some screwing of his own
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Posted: 12/20/2011 6:01:29 PM EDT
[#7]
At a point 4 or 5 years ago he had a rep as a asshole and a total shit but guys would claim he would sit on your money but you would get product at some point.
Guess that changed. Anybody who is that much of an ass likely pissed off his suppliers and so forth as well. Crazy part is that the AR15/M16 conversion was a pretty good product with a fair amount of demand. Considering what you got the price was decent and in volume it had to be reasonably cheap to produce. If the guy had hired a decent manager and raised his price 10% or so he could have kept everyone happy by just going off and playing with his cars and only showing up at the factory to haul away stacks of cash. I have got to wonder how much more stuff he could have sold if he had ramped up production a bit to have product on hand and had a real web sight that would accept orders and credit cards. You know- punch in your address and credit card info and receive a brown box in the mail 10 or 12 days later. I hope he realizes he handed CMMG and Black Dog a pretty good business on a platter because of his being an ass |
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Posted: 12/22/2011 8:38:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Anything new on this toad's prosecution?
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Posted: 12/22/2011 10:27:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Anything new on this toad's prosecution? The irony is strong in that Todd Bailey's nickname was used and he is the only other asshat as big as Ceiner in the firearm industry.
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Posted: 12/22/2011 10:34:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Bought one used.. Had to weld the back plate and polish the surfaces and bend it here and there.. after that it ran well.
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Posted: 12/22/2011 10:36:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Bet he wishes he returned the messages or sent out the kits he was supposed to.
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Posted: 12/23/2011 6:45:08 AM EDT
[#12]
This whole thing is just beyond baffling to me...it's all so over the top it's almost unbelievable...who the fuck charges for a fucking business card...furthermore, who the fuck PAID?
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Posted: 1/14/2012 8:48:51 AM EDT
[#13]
I am have just found about JAC getting his due and found this thread. I was shafted for $400 plus in 2008 also. I have sent multiple letters for the first couple of years, of course no product or refund. I guess I should try again as I still have the paper work and proof of payment. Do I need contact Broward Co Sheriff Office or BBB? How were the complaints filed? Anyone else owed money by JAC?
 Bumping this thread back up regardless. I have been smiling since I found it.
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Posted: 1/14/2012 8:52:39 AM EDT
[#14]
So...
"JAC allegedly would not accept credit cards, but would only accept certified checks, personal checks, and money orders." Is a crime now? |
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Posted: 1/14/2012 9:00:26 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Bet he wishes he returned the messages or sent out the kits he was supposed to. Knowing Jon, I bet he still doesn't give a shit. |
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Posted: 1/14/2012 9:01:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
So... "JAC allegedly would not accept credit cards, but would only accept certified checks, personal checks, and money orders." Is a crime now? It was done so the customer had a lessor chance of getting funds returned when JAC never shipped the item paid for. It was likely set up that way so the fraud he perpetrated had a greater chance of being successful. |
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Posted: 1/14/2012 9:04:55 AM EDT
[#17]
The type of payment was not the crime. Taking money and not sending the product is the crime. By not accepting credit card JAC made the crime easier to get away with.
Quoted:
So... "JAC allegedly would not accept credit cards, but would only accept certified checks, personal checks, and money orders." Is a crime now? |
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Posted: 1/15/2012 8:49:57 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
I am have just found about JAC getting his due and found this thread. I was shafted for $400 plus in 2008 also. I have sent multiple letters for the first couple of years, of course no product or refund. I guess I should try again as I still have the paper work and proof of payment. Do I need contact Broward Co Sheriff Office or BBB? How were the complaints filed? Anyone else owed money by JAC? Bumping this thread back up regardless. I have been smiling since I found it. Contact the Brevard Co Sheriffs office and ask to speak to the investigator in charge of this case, they will be very happy to help you. |
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Posted: 1/15/2012 8:51:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
So... "JAC allegedly would not accept credit cards, but would only accept certified checks, personal checks, and money orders." Is a crime now? Have you even read any of this thread? |
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Posted: 1/15/2012 9:26:45 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bet he wishes he returned the messages or sent out the kits he was supposed to. Knowing Jon, I bet he still doesn't give a shit. I wouldnt bet against it at 10 to 1  Fuck that cocksucker.
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Posted: 1/25/2012 9:17:07 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: July 2008 I sent money to Ciener for a AK 47 22lr conversion, Today 11/23/11 I finally received my money back. That is 40 fucking months that peice of shit had my money and did everything he could do to cheat me out of it. He doesnt even make the AK conversion anymore and probably hasnt since before I ordered my conversion. I was probably one of the cases of complaints that was listed and he has started to send refunds to cover his ass. I hope he fucking dies a horrible death. I sent him my $ for an AK kit in June 2007. Got the refund plus interest the other day. I own a couple of JAC AR conversions and a 1911 conversion and they all work great. I thought I knew what I was getting into when I purchased the kit, figured it might take a year or two to get it. I knew he was a total asshole but didn't think he was a crook. First time a met him was at Knob Creek, he was charging people 25 cents for his business cards!  Knowing how prosecutors work, I expected this to be SOP for dealing with the issue. They will allow him to issue refunds and drop the charges once restitution has been made. Cheaper in the long run for both parties, and I'm certain Ceiner, being in the firearm business, would be willing to do whatever necessary to avoid the possibility of a felony conviction. Just being under indictment for a crime that can result in a felony conviction precludes you from purchasing firearms. He no doubt had an oh shit moment once reality kicked in and his atty brother laid it out for him. |
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Posted: 1/25/2012 9:42:39 AM EDT
[#22]
JAC was walking around a free man at the SHOT show last week.
He doesn't owe me any money or I would've approached him to collect. |
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Posted: 1/25/2012 9:52:11 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What other brands of mags work for the Ceiner AR conversions? I bought my conversion off the EE. That said,  Black Dog Machine's mags work great in mine. They're a sponsor here.I can confirm. BDM Mags work great in my Ciener kit. The only problem I've ever had with them is that they empty too quickly.  I found this out too. I got one with my kit off the EE. I bought 5 more mags. Even with 6 total, they empty too fast. I need more, or an automatic loader! My kit runs great. Too bad JAC is a dickhead. |
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Posted: 2/8/2012 12:03:54 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 2/8/2012 12:18:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Fraud Charges Dropped http://news.brevardtimes.com/2012/02/charges-against-cape-canaveral-gun.html Fucking figures.
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Posted: 2/8/2012 12:36:48 AM EDT
[#26]
Well it will still make it easier for a class action lawsuit to succeed. He may not be a "criminal" but the courts still don't look to kindly on his kind. No one but the lawyers will get any kind of money but if anyone deserves to be sued it is him. I never had any interaction with him but there has to be enough people on here he pissed off enough to make a really good case. There has to be some lawyer willing to take this case. It is a virtual slam dunk, he has been screwing people for years and only once criminal action was taken against him did he even try to make it right. His fraudulent business practices have been well known for years, it will only take enough people making a stink to get him what he deserves.
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Posted: 2/8/2012 12:41:57 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Fraud Charges Dropped http://news.brevardtimes.com/2012/02/charges-against-cape-canaveral-gun.html Well, ain't that somethin' 
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Posted: 2/8/2012 1:26:24 AM EDT
[#28]
Hey, if all else fails, there's a special place in hell reserved for him I'm sure.
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Posted: 2/8/2012 1:34:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Well it will still make it easier for a class action lawsuit to succeed. He may not be a "criminal" but the courts still don't look to kindly on his kind. No one but the lawyers will get any kind of money but if anyone deserves to be sued it is him. I never had any interaction with him but there has to be enough people on here he pissed off enough to make a really good case. There has to be some lawyer willing to take this case. It is a virtual slam dunk, he has been screwing people for years and only once criminal action was taken against him did he even try to make it right. His fraudulent business practices have been well known for years, it will only take enough people making a stink to get him what he deserves. Ain't gonna happen, it's over. |
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Posted: 2/8/2012 6:13:03 AM EDT
[#30]
Totally expected. A little arm twisting, "clean up your act & fly right or else". As long as he had folks money in a non-interest bearing escrow account and hadn't spent it, then there was no criminal intent to defraud. Much like the Shrike product. I suspect he'll be a bit more accommodating on future refund request sans the "don't bother me" fees.
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Posted: 2/8/2012 11:37:45 AM EDT
[#31]
As long as people buy his product he will still be the same ASSHOLE he was before.
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Posted: 2/8/2012 3:03:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Totally expected. A little arm twisting, "clean up your act & fly right or else". As long as he had folks money in a non-interest bearing escrow account and hadn't spent it, then there was no criminal intent to defraud. Much like the Shrike product. I suspect he'll be a bit more accommodating on future refund request sans the "don't bother me" fees. I doubt it.....the thing is, he isnt NEEDED anymore..there are other sources out there that actually HAVE customer service other than "I dont sell parts, buy another fucking kit"...Fuck him..although sadly people will still buy from him for some stuff. |
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Posted: 2/8/2012 10:15:32 PM EDT
[#33]
Subguns.com NFA Firearms Discussion Board
NO outstanding orders and won't be! Posted By: JAC Date: 2/8/12 19:38 In Response To: I have to agree. (Pvt. Cowboy) Complainers were less than .02% over 4 years business. All were for G17/22 conversions BUT G19/23 were being shipped at the same time (and all but AK of our other products). Go figure "FRAUD"! Why would I only defraud G17/22 and AK? Just to clear the books, we refunded all money, with compound interest, to EVERYONE who had orders waiting EVEN if shipment was soon. Many customers returned the checks to us to keep their spot in the wait list (but by end of week those will go back to them, but they will retain first delivery AND at the old price in appreciation of their faith in me) FIRM policy is now, we will not accept pre-paid orders for anything we do not have "on the shelf". Our website has for a long time marked out of stock items as B/O (backorder). It now says o/s (out of stock). And it clearly states orders for items not in stock will be returned. Jonathan You folks have me wrong...but believe what you want. 35 years delivering fine products. So now no more 7 days a week, 10 to 14 hours a day at the grindstone with those outstanding orders looking over my shoulder. Maybe I'll just RETIRE and not finish my next SMG conversion design (except 1 for me)! http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=774413 |
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Posted: 2/8/2012 10:25:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Subguns.com NFA Firearms Discussion Board
NO outstanding orders and won't be! Posted By: JAC Date: 2/8/12 19:38 In Response To: I have to agree. (Pvt. Cowboy) Complainers were less than .02% over 4 years business. All were for G17/22 conversions BUT G19/23 were being shipped at the same time (and all but AK of our other products). Go figure "FRAUD"! Why would I only defraud G17/22 and AK? Just to clear the books, we refunded all money, with compound interest, to EVERYONE who had orders waiting EVEN if shipment was soon. Many customers returned the checks to us to keep their spot in the wait list (but by end of week those will go back to them, but they will retain first delivery AND at the old price in appreciation of their faith in me) FIRM policy is now, we will not accept pre-paid orders for anything we do not have "on the shelf". Our website has for a long time marked out of stock items as B/O (backorder). It now says o/s (out of stock). And it clearly states orders for items not in stock will be returned. Jonathan You folks have me wrong...but believe what you want. 35 years delivering fine products. So now no more 7 days a week, 10 to 14 hours a day at the grindstone with those outstanding orders looking over my shoulder. Maybe I'll just RETIRE and not finish my next SMG conversion design (except 1 for me)! http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=774413 He's still a National Public Penis Repository and Servicing Center. |
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Posted: 2/8/2012 10:28:08 PM EDT
[#35]
The firearms community will be better for his absence. CMMG can have my money, should I ever desire a .22 conversion.
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Posted: 2/9/2012 5:17:15 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: So... "JAC allegedly would not accept credit cards, but would only accept certified checks, personal checks, and money orders." Is a crime now? It was done so the customer had a lessor chance of getting funds returned when JAC never shipped the item paid for. It was likely set up that way so the fraud he perpetrated had a greater chance of being successful. It also makes it a Federal crime (wire or mail fraud). |
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Posted: 2/9/2012 1:35:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Subguns.com NFA Firearms Discussion Board
NO outstanding orders and won't be! Posted By: JAC Date: 2/8/12 19:38 In Response To: I have to agree. (Pvt. Cowboy) Complainers were less than .02% over 4 years business. All were for G17/22 conversions BUT G19/23 were being shipped at the same time (and all but AK of our other products). Go figure "FRAUD"! Why would I only defraud G17/22 and AK? Just to clear the books, we refunded all money, with compound interest, to EVERYONE who had orders waiting EVEN if shipment was soon. Many customers returned the checks to us to keep their spot in the wait list (but by end of week those will go back to them, but they will retain first delivery AND at the old price in appreciation of their faith in me) FIRM policy is now, we will not accept pre-paid orders for anything we do not have "on the shelf". Our website has for a long time marked out of stock items as B/O (backorder). It now says o/s (out of stock). And it clearly states orders for items not in stock will be returned. Jonathan You folks have me wrong...but believe what you want. 35 years delivering fine products. So now no more 7 days a week, 10 to 14 hours a day at the grindstone with those outstanding orders looking over my shoulder. Maybe I'll just RETIRE and not finish my next SMG conversion design (except 1 for me)! http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=774413 He's still a National Public Penis Repository and Servicing Center. A Glory Hole, in other words?
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Posted: 2/9/2012 4:38:23 PM EDT
[#38]
They seem to have a few Koolaid drinkers there...He should be cellmates with Hesse.
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Posted: 2/18/2012 12:23:52 PM EDT
[#39]
Can you imagine what a psych eval of that guy would look like?
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Posted: 2/18/2012 2:05:37 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
The firearms community will be better for his absence. CMMG can have my money, should I ever desire a .22 conversion. Agreed. I would never give this asshole a dime. |
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Posted: 2/18/2012 3:29:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Can you imagine what a psych eval of that guy would look like? Similar to many ARFcomers? |
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Posted: 2/18/2012 4:57:58 PM EDT
[#42]
Since I haven't yet bought a .22 conversion for either my black rifle or my pistol....who makes one that works reliably.....since Ciener sounds like a flaming asshole.
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Posted: 2/18/2012 5:24:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Since I haven't yet bought a .22 conversion for either my black rifle or my pistol....who makes one that works reliably.....since Ciener sounds like a flaming asshole. CMMG's rep is pretty good, and they helped us get the Missouri Defensive Carbine Club up and running back when I was the Missouri HTF moderator. They also make .22LR dedicated rifles and uppers. |
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