User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/7/2011 6:37:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Serious question. Did ceiner design these kits? I ask because most other makers seem to use the same design. ETA: Asking about ar/m kits. he had the patents around which all 22lr conversions were built; this is why the market exploded in the last few years, as Ceiner's patents expired. No he didn't. Ciener purchased the rights to A SINGLE patent around which ONE DESIGN for AR-15 .22LR conversions worked. That was 4,169,329, by Atchisson. Ciener purchased the rights to A SINGLE SECOND patent for the Mini-14. That was 4,515,064, by Hohrein. Also note –– he PURCHASED the patent rights. He was an ASSIGNEE or LICENSEE, not an INVENTOR. (Not clear which.) Colt had its own design, which I own one of, and have since at least 1994; I bought it used, and it was pretty old already. Since Ciener's AR-15 kit's patent expired in 1996, it is fairly obvious that Colt's design did not infringe. The USAF had another (which Olympic Arms now uses as the basis for its kits). There was at least one more out there. Ciener never had anything resembling a monopoly on conversions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/7/2011 6:38:58 PM EDT
[#2]
ETA: double-posted because Ciener is a jerk, er, I mean because my wifi connection sucks.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Serious question. Did ceiner design these kits? I ask because most other makers seem to use the same design. ETA: Asking about ar/m kits. he had the patents around which all 22lr conversions were built; this is why the market exploded in the last few years, as Ceiner's patents expired. No he didn't. Ciener purchased the rights to A SINGLE patent around which ONE DESIGN for AR-15 .22LR conversions worked. That was 4,169,329, by Atchisson. Ciener purchased the rights to A SINGLE SECOND patent for the Mini-14. That was 4,515,064, by Hohrein. Also note –– he PURCHASED the patent rights. He was an ASSIGNEE or LICENSEE, not an INVENTOR. (Not clear which.) Colt had its own design, which I own one of, and have since at least 1994; I bought it used, and it was pretty old already. Since Ciener's AR-15 kit's patent expired in 1996, it is fairly obvious that Colt's design did not infringe. The USAF had another (which Olympic Arms now uses as the basis for its kits). There was at least one more out there. Ciener never had anything resembling a monopoly on conversions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/7/2011 6:43:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
He is probably being charged for money he took from customers but never delivered a product. Then when you call or write to ask on the status of your order he would bill you $15!!!!! There are numerous reports of people ordering stuff and never receiving. It is even documented with the cashing of postal money orders. I will only buy his stuff second hand, he was an ass to me on the phone back 2005. I was at Knob Creek one time when he had a big pile of his conversion kits for sale and a man arrived who had ordered on line or by phone and was given the old "backorder" run around. The guy got pissed and it almost came to a fight because Ceiner would not give him one there and insisted he had to wait for his order to be filled. Ceiner was wearing a pirate hat the entire time. Appropriate. 
The mental image that brings forth...... |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/7/2011 6:52:10 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dis Ciener make that triple set-up for Smith ? I could have sworn Ciener had a multi-set-up of his own . . . . 
I have heard that Ciener had one as well. IIRC, it tipped over and injured a younger child too. Tried looking up more info, but haven't found anytihng yet. Found what may be your incident: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/769865_.html&page=2 In October 1995, Rachel Bigley, 13, was firing Neil Smith's triple Miniguns. Suddenly the entire set up shifted (the miniguns were not firing anymore, but they were running), stood up and then fell over backwards, and Rachel was killed instantly when the corner of the mount struck her in the forehead.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/8/2011 2:50:22 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
I use a M261. Me too... bought it bout 6 years ago and then got extra "barrels"(chamber inserts) from Frank White - Compass Lake Black Dog makes great magazines for them. I was glad that I looked up the Ceiner reviews ahead of time! |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/8/2011 7:43:49 PM EDT
[#6]
What was the arrest about ?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/8/2011 11:19:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: What was the arrest about ? Fraud from the first article Jonathan Arthur Ciener was arrested and charged with schemes to defraud less than $20,000, which is a third degree felony. beyond that not much for details |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 3:57:39 AM EDT
[#8]
More likely, small amounts over and over, rather thanone big incident.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 4:01:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
More likely, small amounts over and over, rather thanone big incident. Under $20,000 - that seems more like a Better Business Bureau or Small Claims Court event ... instead of overhead helicopters. Just sayin' ... |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 4:12:14 AM EDT
[#10]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 4:27:17 AM EDT
[#11]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 4:47:47 AM EDT
[#12]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 5:55:00 AM EDT
[#13]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 6:08:40 AM EDT
[#14]
no dealings...just an AR .22 conversion that is a jam-o-matic...
 ...money wasted...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 6:15:35 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Quoted: More likely, small amounts over and over, rather thanone big incident. Under $20,000 - that seems more like a Better Business Bureau or Small Claims Court event ... instead of overhead helicopters. Just sayin' ... True, but a big headline that screams RAID and FIREARMS make the top brass LEOs look good and make the news more sensational.... Brevard County Sheriff's Office Raids and Arrests Gun Modification Manufacturer
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 6:20:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
More likely, small amounts over and over, rather thanone big incident. Under $20,000 - that seems more like a Better Business Bureau or Small Claims Court event ... instead of overhead helicopters. Just sayin' ... Under $300 = misdemeanor. $300 - $19,999.99 = 3d Degree Felony, max 5 years. $20K - $99,999.99 = F2, max 15 yrs. $100K or more = F1, max 30 yrs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 11:38:20 AM EDT
[#17]
Affidavit used to get the warrant - also available at link in OP.
Cliff notes: whole lot of people ordered and paid for product, never received anything, filed complaints with BBB, fraud investigation commenced, warrant issued. Quoted:
Under $300 = misdemeanor. $300 - $19,999.99 = 3d Degree Felony, max 5 years. $20K - $99,999.99 = F2, max 15 yrs. $100K or more = F1, max 30 yrs. So, if enough ripped off customers who are within the statute of limitations can be found, can that be bumped up to a F2 or F1? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 11:42:10 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What was the arrest about ? Fraud from the first article Jonathan Arthur Ciener was arrested and charged with schemes to defraud less than $20,000, which is a third degree felony.
beyond that not much for details LOL Ares better look out.......... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 11:45:45 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
LOL Ares better look out.......... While Ares took forever to deliver, they issued refunds when requested. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 6:27:56 PM EDT
[#20]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/9/2011 6:46:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Well, that was an interesting read. Seems to be plenty of evidence. And, as this arrest begins to be even more well known, it would not be surprising for even more victims to step forward. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 4:12:01 AM EDT
[#22]
I get the feeling he may be selling some of those in order to pay restitution in order to keep out of jail. I get the feeling that after they raided his shop and got all the outstanding orders he has. He will have to cough up some serious cash. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:23:28 AM EDT
[#23]
Just think of how much fun you'll have in anticipation of the Little Brown Truck's arrival.
This my friends is the text book example of racketeering. I was right. No big amount, but lots of little amounts and a history of this practice. Bookem Danno. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:26:50 AM EDT
[#24]
We don't hit a credit card until the box leaves our door ... and I think we'll stick with that policy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:38:15 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
We don't hit a credit card until the box leaves our door ... and I think we'll stick with that policy. You are also a stand up businessman that goes out of your way to make sure the customer is satisfied, Don't think JAC has ever had that as part of their business model. I am pretty sure JAC did not accept credit cards since it is way to easy to dispute charges and get your money back. With all the crap on his website and the reputation he has I still can not figure out how he gets people to order product from him. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:48:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Last page of the legal document says charge of "Scheme to Defraud".
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:51:27 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
We don't hit a credit card until the box leaves our door ... and I think we'll stick with that policy. You are also a stand up businessman that goes out of your way to make sure the customer is satisfied, Don't think JAC has ever had that as part of their business model. I am pretty sure JAC did not accept credit cards since it is way to easy to dispute charges and get your money back. With all the crap on his website and the reputation he has I still can not figure out how he gets people to order product from him. Call the number on his website once. He's even a dick on his answering machine. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:56:23 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
he is an ass, but his conversions are the best I have ever had the joy of using. Bingo. This is why I waited until his conversions were in stock from a reputable retailer before I purchased, rather than directly through him. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 6:17:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
We don't hit a credit card until the box leaves our door ... and I think we'll stick with that policy. That's usually part of the merchant agreement, which is likely why Ciener didn't accept CC's. Hell, he probably would have had to liquidate one of those Ferrari's to cover the chargebacks from irate customers. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 6:18:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: We don't hit a credit card until the box leaves our door ... and I think we'll stick with that policy. You are also a stand up businessman that goes out of your way to make sure the customer is satisfied, Don't think JAC has ever had that as part of their business model. I am pretty sure JAC did not accept credit cards since it is way to easy to dispute charges and get your money back. With all the crap on his website and the reputation he has I still can not figure out how he gets people to order product from him. Yeah, it is even mentioned in the warrant as more proof JAC was doing everything he could to keep from refunding money. We still get customers in our shop asking about Hess-Vulcan-Blackthorn AR-15s. I would think a quick Google search would tell these people everything they ever needed about Hess or JAC or "insert name here" but people still buy there stuff. For the record, any customer that asks about a company known for piss poor quality or CS, we tell them flat out to reconsider. We will even show them on the internet where past customers have complained. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 6:21:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I had the displeasure of speaking to him several times after buying one of his non-functional conversion kits. Of course, it was my fault.
Nothing said about the man, no matter how cruel, was off the mark. I never spoke to a more abrasive, unlikeable person in my life. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 6:22:58 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
The guy lost a good 60% of his revenue when his patent expired for the AR15 .22 Kits. He was a fucking scumbag and im glad CMMG stepped in to fill the void with better CS and support for their products. Umm he never had that patent. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 2:46:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: The guy lost a good 60% of his revenue when his patent expired for the AR15 .22 Kits. He was a fucking scumbag and im glad CMMG stepped in to fill the void with better CS and support for their products. Umm he never had that patent. The original patent was given to Maxwell Atchisson back in 1973 (U.S. Pat. No. 3,776,095) and the conversions were sold through Colt. JAC bought the rights from Atchisson and held the patent until it expired a few years ago. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 3:57:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The guy lost a good 60% of his revenue when his patent expired for the AR15 .22 Kits. He was a fucking scumbag and im glad CMMG stepped in to fill the void with better CS and support for their products. Umm he never had that patent. The original patent was given to Maxwell Atchisson back in 1973 (U.S. Pat. No. 3,776,095) and the conversions were sold through Colt. JAC bought the rights from Atchisson and held the patent until it expired a few years ago. I hadn't seen that earlier patent before. Thanks. Still not broad enough to cover all the possibilities (although I don't know how means-plus-function language, which the claims are full of, was interpreted in 1973; from what I understand, it's been narrowed considerably; it's considered anathema today). The Pedersen Device and similar gadgets as prior art should have prevented him from being able to get a serious monopoly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 3:57:55 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I get the feeling he may be selling some of those in order to pay restitution in order to keep out of jail. I get the feeling that after they raided his shop and got all the outstanding orders he has. He will have to cough up some serious cash. What makes you think he kept records? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 4:25:03 PM EDT
[#36]
Met him 25 years ago, he thought he was hot shit.
You don't have to throw rocks at assholes like this, they usually sink their own ship. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:09:10 PM EDT
[#37]
All I can say is Bwa HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! I've heard so many bad things about this guy that I wouldn't buy a damn thing from him if he had the product in his hand and he was standing right in front of me selling them for 50% off.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/10/2011 5:28:17 PM EDT
[#38]
I had always heard he was a douche. I got my Ar-15 kit from Midway and it has run flawlessly for thousands of rounds but I've heard tons of stories from those less lucky. I know if anything ever happened to mine I would be screwed anyway so I'm glad to see he got what was coming. Still love my kit though...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2011 3:23:38 PM EDT
[#39]
July 2008 I sent money to Ciener for a AK 47 22lr conversion, Today 11/23/11 I finally received my money back. That is 40 fucking months that peice of shit had my money and did everything he could do to cheat me out of it. He doesnt even make the AK conversion anymore and probably hasnt since before I ordered my conversion. I was probably one of the cases of complaints that was listed and he has started to send refunds to cover his ass. I hope he fucking dies a horrible death.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2011 3:34:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: July 2008 I sent money to Ciener for a AK 47 22lr conversion, Today 11/23/11 I finally received my money back. That is 40 fucking months that peice of shit had my money and did everything he could do to cheat me out of it. He doesnt even make the AK conversion anymore and probably hasnt since before I ordered my conversion. I was probably one of the cases of complaints that was listed and he has started to send refunds to cover his ass. I hope he fucking dies a horrible death. At least he's finally doing something about it. That's awesome to hear you got your money back. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2011 3:37:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
July 2008 I sent money to Ciener for a AK 47 22lr conversion, Today 11/23/11 I finally received my money back. That is 40 fucking months that peice of shit had my money and did everything he could do to cheat me out of it. He doesnt even make the AK conversion anymore and probably hasnt since before I ordered my conversion. I was probably one of the cases of complaints that was listed and he has started to send refunds to cover his ass. I hope he fucking dies a horrible death. At least he's finally doing something about it. That's awesome to hear you got your money back. I am sure he didnt want to do it, If it was up to him he would probably go on taking money without sending anything. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2011 3:39:36 PM EDT
[#42]
He used to road race motorcycles too . . . . . in Canada IIRC . Fucker had an RC30
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2011 3:41:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
We don't hit a credit card until the box leaves our door ... and I think we'll stick with that policy. You are also a stand up businessman that goes out of your way to make sure the customer is satisfied, Don't think JAC has ever had that as part of their business model. I am pretty sure JAC did not accept credit cards since it is way to easy to dispute charges and get your money back. With all the crap on his website and the reputation he has I still can not figure out how he gets people to order product from him. JAC and Mark couldnt be on further , more opposite ends of the spectrum when it came to Customer Service and integrity . . . . . and about every other personality trait
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2011 7:30:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Glad it happened, hope whatever penalty he receives is fitting and just.
Also glad I got my auto trip about a month ago. Here's how my experience went. I ordered an auto trip for my Kuehl .22lr upper. Printed off the form, got a money order and mailed it off. $25 for the Auto Trip $10 Shipping $1 USPS Money Order About three weeks later I get a envelope from Ciener stating that I owe them an additional $15. I didn't read the order form closely enough and missed the $10 charge for small orders, any order below $100. I know know you are asking yourself what 's the extra $5 for, well that's for highlighting the small order charge on the form I sent in and mailing it back to me. So now it's off to the Post Office to get another MO. $15 Extra Charges $ 1 Money Order About three weeks later I get my auto trip in a miniature envelope with less than $1.50 in postage. I swore years ago I would never due business with JAC, but finding an auto trip in the market just wasn't panning out. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2011 7:37:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Wheels within wheels, wheels within wheels |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2011 2:53:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
July 2008 I sent money to Ciener for a AK 47 22lr conversion, Today 11/23/11 I finally received my money back. That is 40 fucking months that peice of shit had my money and did everything he could do to cheat me out of it. He doesnt even make the AK conversion anymore and probably hasnt since before I ordered my conversion. I was probably one of the cases of complaints that was listed and he has started to send refunds to cover his ass. I hope he fucking dies a horrible death. At least he's finally doing something about it. That's awesome to hear you got your money back. I am sure he didnt want to do it, If it was up to him he would probably go on taking money without sending anything. Man that's fucked up reading your story!!!!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2011 3:16:23 AM EDT
[#47]
He should have been arrested for misspelling unprecedented.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2011 1:52:52 PM EDT
[#48]
Is it true a pissed off customer knocked him out at a shoot?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2011 1:59:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Is it true a pissed off customer knocked him out at a shoot? False. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2011 2:13:48 PM EDT
[#50]
That's too bad.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
