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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:23:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's not her only degree. And having a great-grandfather and father who both graduated from West Point and made brigadier general certainly didn't hurt her career progression, especially since her father was a veteran of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Her brother is also a West Point grad, but got out as a 1LT. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:25:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was enlisted Navy, Naval Aviation. Fighters. There was no comparison. I'm not saying that our enlisted techs were stupid--they weren't. I'm saying that, on general, our pilots were Tier One intelligence. They were Tier One men, on the whole...not just intelligence. Better genes. Better manners. 90% of the time, better physical condition. You could put ten men in a building in the exact same clothes, and still be able to pick out the officers...at least in my experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In my experience, yes. I'm not saying that our enlisted techs were stupid--they weren't. I'm saying that, on general, our pilots were Tier One intelligence. They were Tier One men, on the whole...not just intelligence. Better genes. Better manners. 90% of the time, better physical condition. You could put ten men in a building in the exact same clothes, and still be able to pick out the officers...at least in my experience. Want to make it fair, compare them with nuke MM's :-) |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:26:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m an E7 in Air Command and Staff College and there’s no bullshit going on in it. You have to submit all the papers in through an anti-plagiarism site when you submit them. I have no proof, but I assure you that story happened exactly as I related it. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:28:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Laughs in “land nav”
They can’t call for fire for shit either. We’d get those butter bars squared away so that they eventually would become a great asset. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:30:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Laughs in “land nav” They can’t call for fire for shit either. We’d get those butter bars squared away so that they eventually would become a great asset. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:31:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmmm, wonder what the genesis of that policy was? Did that anti-plagiarism site exist in 1997? Was it a requirement for term papers submitted to Embry-Riddle? I have no proof, but I assure you that story happened exactly as I related it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I’m an E7 in Air Command and Staff College and there’s no bullshit going on in it. You have to submit all the papers in through an anti-plagiarism site when you submit them. I have no proof, but I assure you that story happened exactly as I related it. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:33:12 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:39:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Another old trope that refuses to die. 
I love that one, even if the trope is ridiculous |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:42:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another old trope that refuses to die. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:44:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Laughs in “land nav” They can’t call for fire for shit either. We’d get those butter bars squared away so that they eventually would become a great asset. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:56:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We talking Quartermaster, Admin, Medical or Infantry, ANGLICO, Engineer LTs? I’ve seen dozens of LTs who couldn’t find a compass in a box full of them, let alone understand route selection or how to use one Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Another old trope that refuses to die. Again, I've been through both enlisted land nav (a joke) and land nav at TBS (no joke). If you fail land nav at TBS you will come in on weekends until you pass, or you will get rolled to another company. There's....4-5 land nav events, with long legs between points all in the VA underbrush. It's not particularly easy as far as land nav goes. Contrast to land nav at SOI/ITB which was a quick class and prac app that was simply a check in the box. I can't speak for all services, but I can speak for the USMC on both sides of the aisle. Do some officers still suck at it? Sure. But I've also never seen a LCpl land nav a patrol over 4 klicks of shitty terrain. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 6:57:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Laughs in “land nav” They can’t call for fire for shit either. We’d get those butter bars squared away so that they eventually would become a great asset. CPT now LTC David Murphy took over HHB and the fatty left the unit but I can’t remember if it was to OTAG or where |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:03:27 PM EDT
[#13]
I’m a retired CW4 so ..... “LOL” @ this whole thread (that I didn’t waste my time by reading past the first page).
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:04:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any. Again, I've been through both enlisted land nav (a joke) and land nav at TBS (no joke). If you fail land nav at TBS you will come in on weekends until you pass, or you will get rolled to another company. There's....4-5 land nav events, with long legs between points all in the VA underbrush. It's not particularly easy as far as land nav goes. Contrast to land nav at SOI/ITB which was a quick class and prac app that was simply a check in the box. I can't speak for all services, but I can speak for the USMC on both sides of the aisle. Do some officers still suck at it? Sure. But I've also never seen a LCpl land nav a patrol over 4 klicks of shitty terrain. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:07:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Marines I land nav’d with knew their craft very well but they were all combat arms, so I have limited to no exposure with USMC support branches but Army side I’ve seen too many CS & CSS Officers that struggled basic skills shit. I’m thinking of 1 particular female, as I writing this that I referred to as LT Cankles. But post 9/11 Army combat arms 0-1s were generally proficient with a couple mind blowing exceptions here and there Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Any. Again, I've been through both enlisted land nav (a joke) and land nav at TBS (no joke). If you fail land nav at TBS you will come in on weekends until you pass, or you will get rolled to another company. There's....4-5 land nav events, with long legs between points all in the VA underbrush. It's not particularly easy as far as land nav goes. Contrast to land nav at SOI/ITB which was a quick class and prac app that was simply a check in the box. I can't speak for all services, but I can speak for the USMC on both sides of the aisle. Do some officers still suck at it? Sure. But I've also never seen a LCpl land nav a patrol over 4 klicks of shitty terrain. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:08:46 PM EDT
[#16]
The really smart ones are in the Pentagon. Push paper, keep wars going forever, never get shot at and leech billions off the tax payers.
I never got the part where they couldn't even be human enough to say a kind word or treat you as a valuable part of the team. Assholes, I have the morphine and your shot records, which should I use. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:09:00 PM EDT
[#17]
Infantry yes; Avionics no.
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:10:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Infantry yes; Avionics no. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:17:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With that said I have nothing but good things to say about USMC officers. Everyone I met was top notch. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Infantry yes; Avionics no. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:20:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All Marine officers go to TBS and get a fairly in depth education on land nav. Infantry get even more practice, but I don't think they actually get more instruction- just more practice. Most enlisted Marines get very very little formal education on the matter (with some obvious exceptions). Again, I've taken part in both. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:23:34 PM EDT
[#21]
The official song of the Officer Corps:
 Mac Davis - It's Hard To Be Humble (1980) |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:24:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any additional training at USMC leadership / NCO schools? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: All Marine officers go to TBS and get a fairly in depth education on land nav. Infantry get even more practice, but I don't think they actually get more instruction- just more practice. Most enlisted Marines get very very little formal education on the matter (with some obvious exceptions). Again, I've taken part in both. ETA- there may be other schools too, obviously I haven't been to all of them. I'm mostly talking about entry level training which is SOI/ITB vs TBS. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:26:10 PM EDT
[#23]
The trouble with this question is that you only ever remember the ones that stuck out... For good or ill, and if most of your "stuck out" was due to idiocy, you're going to tend to use a broad brush and apply that to all and sundry.
Me, I'm not really too impressed with credentials. The more crap someone plasters on their "I love me" walls, the less capable and competent they've proven to be, in my experience. The guys where you have no idea at all about their past, and who just quietly perform? Yeah, the old SF "Quiet Professionals"? Those are the guys you need, and the ones to look for, at all levels. Dude that puts his resume in your face the minute you meet him, probably isn't going to live up to his own hype. It's like with the guys you meet at veteran's functions; the ones who are all boastful and who talk the most sh*t are usually the fakers or the ones exaggerating it all. The guy who says jack and sh*t about where he was or what he did...? Usually, that's the guy whose record looks like you could make a movie out of it. You want to know who really "saw the elephant" as the old Civil War guys put it, you're looking for the guy who doesn't talk much about combat, but who does tell the stories about the times where they stole a load of beer out of the O-Club down at Da Nang, along with somebody's jeep... I've only ever met one exception to that rule, and that was a guy who was a serious sh*t-talker. I listened to him for about fifteen minutes, dismissed him as being full of it, and then was talking to another guy who'd been with him in Vietnam, and he corrected me: Mr. Talksmuchsh*t had actually done all that stuff, and then some. And, yes, the guy was a total asshole, nobody liked him, but... When the chips were down, he'd done the necessary. That's one guy, out of dozens, though. Generally, it's a pretty good rule of thumb that the more trash they talk, the less they actually did. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 7:55:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty basic unless you get into something out of the ordinary (recon, MARSOC etc). Nothing that comes close to TBS. ETA- there may be other schools too, obviously I haven't been to all of them. I'm mostly talking about entry level training which is SOI/ITB vs TBS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: All Marine officers go to TBS and get a fairly in depth education on land nav. Infantry get even more practice, but I don't think they actually get more instruction- just more practice. Most enlisted Marines get very very little formal education on the matter (with some obvious exceptions). Again, I've taken part in both. ETA- there may be other schools too, obviously I haven't been to all of them. I'm mostly talking about entry level training which is SOI/ITB vs TBS. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:06:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Many officers have an engineering degree. Having four years thinking analytically can really add some additional depth to an individual's mental processing power. In addition, the physics background lets a body have a better understanding of their surroundings. A college background prepares people better for accurate record keeping, which is paramount in many military fields. I did it backwards; enlisted before going to University and doing math for four years. I owed it to myself to go do some higher learning. I crushed my year of technical training in avionics. No sailor or marine, in my A school class, was even close to keeping up with my GPA. Sort of on topic, way more sailors washed out of the job than did the Marines. I spent many more hours having study groups with the crayon eaters than with my Navy counterparts. Team green was way more motivated. Motivation is the key to being smart in a military manner. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:09:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did CIED {I was assigned to the dismounted squad with 4 soldiers under me but the remainder of the company was ‘motorized’ in Buffalos, Huskies, etc.} with the 235th Engineer company. We didn’t do it like that |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:15:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... as opposed to dorms with 17-19 year olds? |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:20:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any additional training at USMC leadership / NCO schools? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: All Marine officers go to TBS and get a fairly in depth education on land nav. Infantry get even more practice, but I don't think they actually get more instruction- just more practice. Most enlisted Marines get very very little formal education on the matter (with some obvious exceptions). Again, I've taken part in both. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:26:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another old trope that refuses to die. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Laughs in “land nav” They can’t call for fire for shit either. We’d get those butter bars squared away so that they eventually would become a great asset.
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:28:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When doing a practice land nav practical exercise at the SNCOA, don't give the compass to a cannon cocker and assume he is good to go. He will read the damn thing in MILS. BTDT. As a result, I bought my own damn compass so I could double-check the fuckers I was teamed up with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Laughs in “land nav” They can’t call for fire for shit either. We’d get those butter bars squared away so that they eventually would become a great asset.  true!
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:38:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What year? Because that's how we did in the 82nd in 03. Maybe some retards actually learned something after killing their soldiers with their criminal levels of stupidity. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:40:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What year? Because that's how we did in the 82nd in 03. Maybe some retards actually learned something after killing their soldiers with their criminal levels of stupidity.  Typical Route Clearance days in Afghanistan pt II |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:48:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You bring up a good point about MOS. I have had some techs that were smarter than almost any officer I've ever met. Smart enough that some took an $80,000 tax free bonus as a Cpl... |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:50:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
08-09 Officers lack anything vaguely resembling common sense because every single joe knew exactly what was going to happen when we found an IED, but our officers were too stupid to understand it. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:54:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Most of my PLs were good as they graduated Ranger school, my last one was smart, but couldn't write an award to save his life.
He was honest with me and I taught him how to do it, we sat down and he watched me write up my retirement award  Damn BN wouldn't sign off on my Legion of Merit and said to downgrade it to an MSM
My retirement award was my best work, I would have approved the LOM My commander laughed and said good try
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:59:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm curious what happens at TBS that makes Marine officers so different. Honest question. I've been impressed with every Marine officer I've met. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: All Marine officers go to TBS and get a fairly in depth education on land nav. Infantry get even more practice, but I don't think they actually get more instruction- just more practice. Most enlisted Marines get very very little formal education on the matter (with some obvious exceptions). Again, I've taken part in both. ETA- there may be other schools too, obviously I haven't been to all of them. I'm mostly talking about entry level training which is SOI/ITB vs TBS. After TBS then you go to your MOS school. TBS certainly isn't perfect, but I do believe it is a great entry level school and a good way to start new Lts off in their military career. It also gives the staff an opportunity to put shitbags in MOSs where they will do the least damage. It doesn't always work this way, but sometimes it does. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 8:59:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When doing a practice land nav practical exercise at the SNCOA, don't give the compass to a cannon cocker and assume he is good to go. He will read the damn thing in MILS. BTDT. As a result, I bought my own damn compass so I could double-check the fuckers I was teamed up with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Laughs in “land nav” They can’t call for fire for shit either. We’d get those butter bars squared away so that they eventually would become a great asset.
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Posted: 7/3/2019 9:00:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hell the Army is offering $40k for enlisted Infantry contacts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You bring up a good point about MOS. I have had some techs that were smarter than almost any officer I've ever met. Smart enough that some took an $80,000 tax free bonus as a Cpl...
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Posted: 7/3/2019 9:01:19 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most of my PLs were good as they graduated Ranger school, my last one was smart, but couldn't write an award to save his life. He was honest with me and I taught him how to do it, we sat down and he watched me write up my retirement award Damn BN wouldn't sign off on my Legion of Merit and said to downgrade it to an MSM
My retirement award was my best work, I would have approved the LOM My commander laughed and said good try |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 9:01:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully by your time route clearance was less retarded army wide. It was pretty bad when I was in and I'm still (obviously) a bit bitter about it. Officers lack anything vaguely resembling common sense because every single joe knew exactly what was going to happen when we found an IED, but our officers were too stupid to understand it. I'd laugh, but if anyone knew how many guys died in Vietnam doing that "Walk down road with mine detector..." routine, you wouldn't laugh along with me. Same time frame, the Rhodesians and South Africans were having very similar issues with mines and IEDs. Their solution? The MRAP and armored route clearance gear that we finally bought and fielded in 2005-ish. I wouldn't mind, but it's a bit 'effing ridiculous that we did Vietnam without bothering to invent that stuff for ourselves, or that we went all through the 1990s without bothering to look at South Africa and copy/paste. Frustrating as hell to anyone who was trying to get action on the issue out of the Engineer School, like I was with about fifty other people. They just didn't want the mission, so they stuck their heads in the sand. Same-same with the TUSK stuff on the M1--The guys down at JRTC were telling Armor branch that they needed the tank telephones and all that other crap as early as the late 1980s, but when did they get around to designing and procuring it? Oh, just about 2005... The Army has a serious issue with learning from the experience of others. It's like we need dead bodies wearing American uniforms before we pay attention... |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 9:47:53 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Speaking in generalities, on average, Officers are more educated. Intelligence is a whole 'nuther bag of dicks... |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 10:16:45 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 7/3/2019 10:46:41 PM EDT
[#43]
The answer is it depends. No f'ing way my Marines wanted a wrench in my hands. I sucked at close order drill (still do, but haven't needed that skill in a long time). Most of my SNCO's were natural leaders, I wasn't (It took me a bit to figure that one out). But RolandofGilead is right on the landnav. Marine Officers from schools with a good NROTC program did landnav to get ready for OCS, then more landnav at OCS, then teach landnav to get the next years class of OCS candidates ready, then more landnav at TBS. By the time I got to Armor Officer Basic Course - mounted landnav - "THIS IS A BLAST, let's do some more". Which leads to a great deal of frustration on the part of said officers who think that their Staff NCO's and Sergeants should be able to find their way around as well as somebody who has had it drilled into their head repeatedly. Some could, some couldn't (Guess what - we're going to the field and doing more landnav).
Had a couple of college graduate enlisted Marines I served with - one was prior enlisted, went to college and decided he wanted to do it again. Another got seriously BS'd by a recruiter, I've got no doubt he's smarter than I am on a LOT of subjects - but talking to Marine recruiters wasn't one of them. I know officers and enlisted who thrived in a chaotic environment, and I know officers and enlisted who needed lots of structure. I'm pretty proud of the guys I served with, and they are all intelligent men, but the subjects may need vary a bit, and it didn't always seem that way at the time. I'm sure there were some things that I did where my troops went  . There is a reason the Marines put an emphasis on Judgement as an important leadership trait.
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Posted: 7/3/2019 11:15:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Would the average officer be smarter than the average enlisted man/woman? Apply this to the military as a whole. Warrant>NCO>company grade O>general grade O>lower enlisted>field grade O. On average. It's more accurate to rank based on grade: W5-W1>E9-E6>O4-O3>E5>O10-08>E4>O2-O1>E3-E1>O7-O5. |
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Posted: 7/3/2019 11:27:22 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 7/3/2019 11:44:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Military smartness rankings: Warrant>NCO>company grade O>general grade O>lower enlisted>field grade O. On average. It's more accurate to rank based on grade: W5-W1>E9-E6>O4-O3>E5>O10-08>E4>O2-O1>E3-E1>O7-O5. Eta- what was it you were saying about intelligence?
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Posted: 7/3/2019 11:49:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the USAF is smart enough to fight wars by throwing officers at the enemy... |
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Posted: 7/4/2019 12:01:59 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No they are idiots mostly. Enlisted know what's going on and practical solutions. Officers have no idea what's going on and ask for unpractical things. But don't get me wrong there's some officers who served enlisted first and have a better head on their shoulders. But officers are more book smart having a college degree. |
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Posted: 7/4/2019 12:33:24 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’m an E7 in Air Command and Staff College and there’s no bullshit going on in it. You have to submit all the papers in through an anti-plagiarism site when you submit them. 
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Posted: 7/4/2019 12:37:44 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you got your company grades and field grades a little confused. Eta- what was it you were saying about intelligence? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Military smartness rankings: Warrant>NCO>company grade O>general grade O>lower enlisted>field grade O. On average. It's more accurate to rank based on grade: W5-W1>E9-E6>O4-O3>E5>O10-08>E4>O2-O1>E3-E1>O7-O5. Eta- what was it you were saying about intelligence? |
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