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Posted: 11/26/2023 11:46:09 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have several pistols with optics, including my carry 365XL. I've shot drills but not in the clock. It doesn't slow me down (practice, imagine that) and gives me precision with less concentration required. My newer woods gun (m&p 10mm) also wears a dot. Pegged this guy climbing a tree at ~20 yd center mass this morning. Should make a neat mount if we can patch up the entry hole  https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/1000000603_jpg-3039812.JPG FYI, Night Fision "non cowitness" sights and the Holosun SCS are my favorite combo so far. Presentation is just like my other M&Ps, including the one i use in matches with irons. The dot is just there waiting on me, and the irons are perfectly useable if it fails. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20231101_022017765_jpg-3039815.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20231101_022121155_jpg-3039818.JPG Damn. That’s a giant squirrel. You should do something cool with it.  Attached File@RDTCU |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 12:17:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All jokes and bullshit aside, here’s the real shit: If you pick up an optics equipped handgun, go to the range cold and try and shoot the same way as you do with irons it’s going to suck. Been there. Don’t even think about live fire until you spend some time in dryfire. Just simple presentations for 10-15 minutes a day. I did 5 minutes of present to first shot, then 5 minutes of present to two shots, reload, two shots, then 5 minutes of present, engage three targets with two rounds each, reload and repeat. Day 1-2 - This sucks. It sucks, it’s slow and I don’t like it. Day 3-5 - There might be something to this. Day 5-6 - There is definitely something to this. Day 7+ - I WANT THESE ON EVERY GUN I OWN. There’s no shortcut to this. You have to put in the time. If you do, the juice is worth the squeeze. But don’t lie to yourself, if you’re not going to put in the work it’s not going to work for you. Nothing but facts right here. Exactly how it went for me 6 years ago. I started with a dovetail RMR mount for an HK I had so I could see how I was going to like it at first, and when day 7+ happened to me I started sending everything off to be milled for a rds. Still dryfire 5-6 nights a week to this day even if it only 5 min so I won't loose my mojo. Bought a CoolFire Trainer barrel last Jan. and it was the best investment I have ever made for dryfire practice. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 12:52:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the idea for having multiple backup mags wasn't exactly for having more ammo, but for having the ability to change a mag in the event of malfunctions? This is the main reason I carry a spare mag on my persona. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 12:54:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Irons have built in triple redundancy. Under normal conditions you ignore them and point shoot because all gunfights take place from 7-10 yards and you only need to land hits anywhere on a silhouette. If your front sight falls off you can ignore your rear sight and point shoot, if your rear sight falls off you can ignore your front sight and point shoot, and if both fall off you can point shoot without the distraction of sights. LoL ???? Awesome |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:15:01 PM EDT
[#5]
nope, just no interest in it.
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:17:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: nope, just no interest in it. I also hate cool stuff. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:27:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I also hate cool stuff. I too do not want to be faster and more accurate. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:28:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I too do not want to be faster and more accurate. That shit’s for nerds. Be a real man. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:29:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Because RDS on a 92 is an abomination.
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:29:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: a 92 is an abomination. True. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:02:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it's a grip angle thing to me. I've been almost exclusively glock since the late 80's. I can look a an outlet across the house, close my eyes and raise the gun.... and I'm on it. I do point shooting drills. Not a 10 ring guy, but decently quick with center mass hits. With the optic, half of the optic cross hair is buried. Even with my aging eyes, I have a good batting average on steel at 100 yards. I just don't think I can warm up to it. I'm rural and rarely far from a rifle too. I don't doubt it's awesome for a lot of shooters, but I hate it. Same here with the ability to index. It's something that is a regular part of my dry fire that I confirm with live fire. When I'm in shape I can constantly hit a 70 MOA target at my 930-230 without moving my head/eyes from 1200. When I started training with a red dot the biggest struggle was Letting myself go faster. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I too do not want to be faster and more accurate. I would say between the cost of a RDS or a class from a quality instructor. The instructor will get you to be faster and more accurate sooner than a dot. A case of ammo with quality practice will do the same |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:25:17 PM EDT
[#13]
No. I have modern guns with RDS, and some older classic stuff without.
But yeah RDS gang rise up. Also, hate to break it to you guys who needed a bunch of time to get used to red dots... Your grip and index were bad and all the dot did was show you. My index consistency skyrocketed after I went with RDSs. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:25:32 PM EDT
[#14]
I have never in all my gun-hobby years seen such a divisive topic. The butthurt on both sides is epic. Shoot what you like/want. Damn. The tech is in the overall scheme of things brand new. Can you really blame those that want to adopt a "wait and see" approach?
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:25:41 PM EDT
[#15]
I pretty much have a optic on all my pistols now.
The ones I dont have I dont shoot. My closeup eyesight got shitty a couple years ago and looking at irons is annoying now. Plus once you learn to use the BAC for shooting, you dont even look at the pistol. I do have irons on all my OEP's (optic equipped pistols) some cowitness and some dont. Also I prefer to have direct mount milled slides. Its nice that many micro compacts come with the Shield RMSc footprint. I never recommend plate systems to anyone. I wish more optics used the ACRO footprint. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:26:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would say between the cost of a RDS or a class from a quality instructor. The instructor will get you to be faster and more accurate sooner than a dot. A case of ammo with quality practice will do the same Tbh I kinda doubt it. An RDS is instantly buying skill, because it places the aiming point and target on the same focal plane. It's an instant upgrade and the benefits are self evident. It does something the human eye is physically incapable of. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:26:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have never in all my gun-hobby years seen such a divisive topic. The butthurt on both sides is epic. Shoot what you like/want. Damn. The tech is in the overall scheme of things brand new. Can you really blame those that want to adopt a "wait and see" approach? Yes, because they've been around since the 80s, and have been ruggedized and in military use for well over a decade now. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:29:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, because they've been around since the 80s, and have been ruggedized and in military use for well over a decade now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have never in all my gun-hobby years seen such a divisive topic. The butthurt on both sides is epic. Shoot what you like/want. Damn. The tech is in the overall scheme of things brand new. Can you really blame those that want to adopt a "wait and see" approach? Yes, because they've been around since the 80s, and have been ruggedized and in military use for well over a decade now. See what I mean? The fanboys are insufferable. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:35:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tbh I kinda doubt it. An RDS is instantly buying skill, because it places the aiming point and target on the same focal plane. It's an instant upgrade and the benefits are self evident. It does something the human eye is physically incapable of. Did you know you can shoot irons with a target focus? Woah |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:40:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would say between the cost of a RDS or a class from a quality instructor. The instructor will get you to be faster and more accurate sooner than a dot. A case of ammo with quality practice will do the same A regular dry fire regimen will trump those things and be free. There’s a shit ton of free, legitimate info in the form of YouTube and books. A training class is helpful but I don’t think they are for new shooters. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:41:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: See what I mean? The fanboys are insufferable. Umm… What he said is factual. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:42:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RDS are like a body lift on a truck. Does very little for actual performance. Makes short guys with small weenies feel tough. Re performance I actually felt like pistol red dot was one of the few times I felt like I was buying skill it was such an immediate and marked improvement. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:43:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you know you can shoot irons with a target focus? Woah Figuring this out, and at what distance you can reliably make Alphas, was one of the biggest light bulb moments for me in my skill progression. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:43:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tbh I kinda doubt it. An RDS is instantly buying skill, because it places the aiming point and target on the same focal plane. It's an instant upgrade and the benefits are self evident. It does something the human eye is physically incapable of. They aren’t on the same focal plane, and you cannot focus on the dot and the target at the same time. Just like you can’t focus on irons and the target at the same time either. You’re either target focused, or sight focused. No matter the aiming system. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:44:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Umm… What he said is factual. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: See what I mean? The fanboys are insufferable. Umm… What he said is factual. Umm. We didn't have dot sights in their current form on defensive guns in common use until maybe 6-7 years ago. Also fact. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:45:11 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Figuring this out, and at what distance you can reliably make Alphas, was one of the biggest light bulb moments for me in my skill progression. Ain’t gonna lie, I’m a little skeered to start shooting single stack 
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:46:25 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Umm. We didn't have dot sights in their current form on defensive guns in common use until maybe 6-7 years ago. Also fact. Define “common use.” The RMR has been out for nearly15 years. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:46:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A regular dry fire regimen will trump those things and be free. There’s a shit ton of free, legitimate info in the form of YouTube and books. A training class is helpful but I don’t think they are for new shooters. Dry fire is awesome... if your are doing it correctly. Getting feedback from a quality instructor will make sure you are doing it right. Nothing is worse than practicing bad habits. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:48:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Figuring this out, and at what distance you can reliably make Alphas, was one of the biggest light bulb moments for me in my skill progression. I target focus at all distances |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:48:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Umm. We didn't have dot sights in their current form on defensive guns in common use until maybe 6-7 years ago. Also fact. They’ve been using competitively since the 1980’s and have continued to evolve since then. RMR’s have been in use for over a decade. IPSC/USPSA shooters are no stranger to handgun optics. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:49:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That shit’s for nerds. Be a real man. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I too do not want to be faster and more accurate. That shit’s for nerds. Be a real man. Pistols are totally SpecOps Tier 1, use your fists! |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:57:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Umm… What he said is factual. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: See what I mean? The fanboys are insufferable. Umm… What he said is factual. His truth bro.. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 2:57:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Define “common use.” The RMR has been out for nearly15 years. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Umm. We didn't have dot sights in their current form on defensive guns in common use until maybe 6-7 years ago. Also fact. Define “common use.” The RMR has been out for nearly15 years. That's easy. Whenever we started to get multiple threads in the first couple pages of GD on them.
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:15:10 PM EDT
[#34]
I own over 130 handguns and only have red dots on a few. I may put red dots on a few more, maybe not.
I know a lot of people around here won't understand this, but the vast majority of guns I own - long and short - are just for fun. Not everything has to be the best killing machine out there I envision myself ultimately using to fight off hordes whatever in TEOTWAWKI and protect my harem.. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:46:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dry fire is awesome... if your are doing it correctly. Getting feedback from a quality instructor will make sure you are doing it right. Nothing is worse than practicing bad habits. Agreed. I know a few guys who’ve made it to M without an in-person class, so it’s possible. Pretty much anyone will benefit from a good instructor. Some more so than others. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:47:24 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's easy. Whenever we started to get multiple threads in the first couple pages of GD on them. Well played
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:49:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I own over 130 handguns and only have red dots on a few. I may put red dots on a few more, maybe not. I know a lot of people around here won't understand this, but the vast majority of guns I own - long and short - are just for fun. Not everything has to be the best killing machine out there I envision myself ultimately using to fight off hordes whatever in TEOTWAWKI and protect my harem.. That’s great man. Nobody has said you HAVE to mount an optic to your pistol. Nobody has said that you’ll suck at shooting without one. Nobody has said you can’t have fun with irons. Nobody has said all your guns need to be killing machines. The argument is that higher levels of speed and accuracy are attainable with a red dot, and that many of the myths surrounding them are just that. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:54:55 PM EDT
[#38]
I’m in on RDS.
 
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:57:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryNoice. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:57:19 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:58:21 PM EDT
[#41]
My edc is a P365 with optic. My match gun is an X-Five Legion with an optic. I’ve also got a P320 with optic. The old stuff keeps their irons; revolvers, 1911s, etc…
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:58:38 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 11/26/2023 4:10:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I found the dot. It was there the whole time https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/113559/IMG_9063_jpeg-3040971.JPG The dot was within each of us, all along! |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 4:49:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn. That’s a giant squirrel. You should do something cool with it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/196752/IMG_4594_jpeg-3040712.JPG @RDTCU Still thinking about it |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 7:01:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s great man. Nobody has said you HAVE to mount an optic to your pistol. Nobody has said that you’ll suck at shooting without one. Nobody has said you can’t have fun with irons. Nobody has said all your guns need to be killing machines. The argument is that higher levels of speed and accuracy are attainable with a red dot, and that many of the myths surrounding them are just that. If this thread makes it to 100 pgs, I'm afraid this will have to be repeated several times more. Some are going to get it, and some are going to watch it fly right over the fence. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 8:11:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have never in all my gun-hobby years seen such a divisive topic. The butthurt on both sides is epic. Shoot what you like/want. Damn. The tech is in the overall scheme of things brand new. Can you really blame those that want to adopt a "wait and see" approach? The tech is not brand new. It has been around for decades. Hell they have been putting electronic dots on pistols since the late 80s. The first reflex sight was made in 1900. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 8:14:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Define “common use.” The RMR has been out for nearly15 years. and before that the doctor optic. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 10:00:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The dot was within each of us, all along! The true dot was the friends we made along the way. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 10:01:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Electronic optics can and do fail. Backup irons is a no brainer
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Posted: 11/26/2023 10:05:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Electronic optics can and do fail. Backup irons is a no brainer I don't run back up irons on my HD gun. Am I gonna die? Truth be told I trust it more than irons hanging off the side. That can and do break as well btw. |
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