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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:17:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So now you’re saying god is not eternal, so looking to a god of religion your entire life is done in vain since you’re not granted eternal life in heaven like stated in religious scriptures. If your god is not infinite, then your god had a beginning, thus being created. How does the universe being infinite or finite change the fact that we’re stuck in the present, never reaching the future? You will always be in the today, the right now, you will never reach tomorrow. You don’t know if there’s an infinite amount of events that lead to right now, this exact instant you read this text, and likewise you don’t know if there’s a finite amount of events leading up to right now. You also don’t know if there’s an infinite amount of events that will unfold in the future. Neither do I. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: God would have to proceed and infinite universe. Therefore the universe he creates would be a potential infinite. If the Universe and God are eternal, you would have to answer how that can logically happen. My argument is that if the universe were infinite, you would never reach today. For example, we would look at time as a series of events. So there were be an infinite number of events, before today. Which means you would never reach today, because there would always be a proceeding event to infinity. So now you’re saying god is not eternal, so looking to a god of religion your entire life is done in vain since you’re not granted eternal life in heaven like stated in religious scriptures. If your god is not infinite, then your god had a beginning, thus being created. How does the universe being infinite or finite change the fact that we’re stuck in the present, never reaching the future? You will always be in the today, the right now, you will never reach tomorrow. You don’t know if there’s an infinite amount of events that lead to right now, this exact instant you read this text, and likewise you don’t know if there’s a finite amount of events leading up to right now. You also don’t know if there’s an infinite amount of events that will unfold in the future. Neither do I. I was merely responding to your what if thought experiment. You asked if God could create an infinite universe. An infinite universe could not be created, because it’s always existed. God is eternal, therefore he has always existed. Those two things are contradictory. So I answered how God would need to create a potentially infinite universe. Not entirely sure what point you are attempting to make, but ::scratches head:: yeah… just think you outsmarted me. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:18:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you know God is eternal? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Everything that begins to exist has a cause. God is eternal, therefore does not have an efficient cause. Based off the same biblical text that specified how the universe was created. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:20:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a lot of words to make a failed argument against an eternal being. That which has no starting point has no start, therefore cannot be created. Already covered and it's in the Biblical text. 2700 year old text at that.. As I said, defining god in a certain way does not prove that: 1) Such a being is possible. 2) That such a being is the cause of our universe. There are literally infinite number of hypothetical causes to the universe, a "supreme being" is just one of them. The fact is I don't know what the "basal cause" is. Neither do scientists, neither does your 2,700 year old text, and neither do you. You can pretend to "know" all you want, but you don't. You have FAITH, but you don't KNOW. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:21:19 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Based off the same biblical text that specified how the universe was created. So why aren't you just happy with that? Why do you care what a bunch of dumb science people think? |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:22:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually, "I Am" spoke. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: God snapped his fingers and there was a giant explosion, kind of like a big bang or something. I Am/Jesus/The Word, did all the creating. John 8; 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:23:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once all the stars burn out and all matter is consumed into black holes, it is all released again from a singular point via a big bang. Our universe began from the previous universe's death. That's a point on a time line, not a beginning. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:29:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no way to heaven but through Christ. This is a real trigger point for atheist. Hell is misunderstood, as I’m sure you know, given you are well versed in the Bible. Hell is just separation from God. Something atheists will be quite comfortable with I suspect. How is the path to heaven a "real trigger point for atheist" if the atheist has no reason to even believe that heaven exists? |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:32:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's my understanding that everything didn't come from nothing, everything came from a singularity. Within such a mathematical impossibility mass, gravity, and time are meaningless, they become infinitely fractional. We can tell exactly where it happened, and with some precision almost exactly when it happened, and can back calculate what happened, once it started to happen. The atheist answer to what preceded that event is somewhere between "we haven't figured that out yet", "we haven't figured out if it even can be figured out", and "it's unknowable". Not knowing, and not having a better answer doesn't exactly keep me up at night, it's not like the lack of an irrefutable answer disproves the existence of the whole universe. Atheists trying to wiggle out of Original Big Bang theory. Assuming you got your information from the good ol internetz? “The singularity is out-of-reach on the standard metric only if one proceeds toward it through an open interval instant by instant; but if we regress by distances of equal non-zero temporal intervals, then we do reach an absolute origin of the universe in a finite number of steps, in that we arrive at a first year, or hour, or second, or what have you, even though those temporal segments lack a first instant - Smith (1985)” |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:33:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, and I laid out why that reasoning is false. As I said, defining god in a certain way does not prove that: 1) Such a being is possible. 2) That such a being is the cause of our universe. There are literally infinite number of hypothetical causes to the universe, a "supreme being" is just one of them. The fact is I don't know what the "basal cause" is. Neither do scientists, neither does your 2,700 year old text, and neither do you. You can pretend to "know" all you want, but you don't. You have FAITH, but you don't KNOW. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's a lot of words to make a failed argument against an eternal being. That which has no starting point has no start, therefore cannot be created. Already covered and it's in the Biblical text. 2700 year old text at that.. As I said, defining god in a certain way does not prove that: 1) Such a being is possible. 2) That such a being is the cause of our universe. There are literally infinite number of hypothetical causes to the universe, a "supreme being" is just one of them. The fact is I don't know what the "basal cause" is. Neither do scientists, neither does your 2,700 year old text, and neither do you. You can pretend to "know" all you want, but you don't. You have FAITH, but you don't KNOW. Fair enough. I’m speaking to the best explanation. That is all we can do in this discussion correct? What’s your best explanation? |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:34:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So why aren't you just happy with that? Why do you care what a bunch of dumb science people think? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Based off the same biblical text that specified how the universe was created. So why aren't you just happy with that? Why do you care what a bunch of dumb science people think? Oh.. I’m not doing this for me. Hoping one dumb atheist out there reads this thread and changes his mind, or at least opens it to the possibility that atheism is absurd. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:35:48 PM EDT
[#11]
There is so little reliable data the question itself is worthless and any answer untestable. The thread title may as well be "fiction writing contest".
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:35:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh.. I'm not doing this for me. Hoping one dumb atheist out there reads this thread and changes his mind, or at least opens it to the possibility that atheism is absurd. Oh. LMFAO. Oh my. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:37:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is the path to heaven a "real trigger point for atheist" if the atheist has no reason to even believe that heaven exists? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is no way to heaven but through Christ. This is a real trigger point for atheist. Hell is misunderstood, as I’m sure you know, given you are well versed in the Bible. Hell is just separation from God. Something atheists will be quite comfortable with I suspect. How is the path to heaven a "real trigger point for atheist" if the atheist has no reason to even believe that heaven exists? In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That’s when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That’s usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:39:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is so little reliable data the question itself is worthless and any answer untestable. The thread title may as well be "fiction writing contest". Little reliable data on the Big Bang? Yeah… ok.. ?? |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:41:25 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That's when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That's usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. You're so full of shit. You know no one is buying your story, right? Well maybe two guys in this thread. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:41:55 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except all the evidence points to theUniverse expanding in all directions. That means that gravitational forces are reducing and the likelihood of everything bouncing back like a rubber band is zero. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Once all the stars burn out and all matter is consumed into black holes, it is all released again from a singular point via a big bang. Our universe began from the previous universe's death. Except all the evidence points to theUniverse expanding in all directions. That means that gravitational forces are reducing and the likelihood of everything bouncing back like a rubber band is zero. The problem is the scale of time is so unimaginable most people can't grasp the cyclical nature. We tend to look at time and events as a river that flows one way from one point to another. But that's just our perception. Time is merely how we measure the occurrence of events. It doesn't exist outside of consciousness. Time isn't a river, it's an ocean that contains all events that have ever occurred, from quantum to macro events. Same with space; we only have our own contextual framework to measure space. We imagine space as having boundaries and behaving in certain ways because that's how our visible world behaves. If space is infinite and extends beyond our universe, then all events are occurring simultaneously because time has no meaning in infinite space. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:44:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're so full of shit. You know no one is buying your story, right? Well maybe two guys in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That's when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That's usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. You're so full of shit. You know no one is buying your story, right? Well maybe two guys in this thread. I’m not following. I talk to atheists daily. I’ve provided you with solid science based evidence on a finite universe. Posted Genesis1 from a 2700 year old text, correctly outlining the first moments of creation. Shot down the infinite cosmic crunch theory. Answered questions on singularity event with Big Bang. And… what exactly? Buying that I’m responding to atheists who cannot rub two brain cells together and form a coherent theory for the beginning of the universe? |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:44:57 PM EDT
[#18]
I don’t know. Therefore, God. lol
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:45:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That’s when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That’s usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. And then everyone applauded and carried OP out on their shoulders while singing, "For he's a jolly good fellow". |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:45:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hoping one dumb atheist out there reads this thread and changes his mind, or at least opens it to the possibility that atheism is absurd. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:46:16 PM EDT
[#21]
This thread won't make it til morning
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:46:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not following. I talk to atheists daily. I've provided you with solid science based evidence on a finite universe. Posted Genesis1 from a 2700 year old text, correctly outlining the first moments of creation. Shot down the infinite cosmic crunch theory. Answered questions on singularity event with Big Bang. And what exactly? Buying that I'm responding to atheists who cannot rub two brain cells together and form a coherent theory for the beginning of the universe? I don't believe you. You also provided nothing. You started this thread to satisfy yourself and your own pseudointellectual needs. You are not a man of science, and you're dishonest. You were given the answer on page two yet deny it. That you're unwilling to admit it is expected. Moving on. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:46:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not following. I talk to atheists daily. I've provided you with solid science based evidence on a finite universe. Posted Genesis1 from a 2700 year old text, correctly outlining the first moments of creation. Shot down the infinite cosmic crunch theory. Answered questions on singularity event with Big Bang. And what exactly? Buying that I'm responding to atheists who cannot rub two brain cells together and form a coherent theory for the beginning of the universe? Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not following. I talk to atheists daily. I've provided you with solid science based evidence on a finite universe. Posted Genesis1 from a 2700 year old text, correctly outlining the first moments of creation. Shot down the infinite cosmic crunch theory. Answered questions on singularity event with Big Bang. And what exactly? Buying that I'm responding to atheists who cannot rub two brain cells together and form a coherent theory for the beginning of the universe? Quoted: I'm not following. I talk to atheists daily. I've provided you with solid science based evidence on a finite universe. Posted Genesis1 from a 2700 year old text, correctly outlining the first moments of creation. Shot down the infinite cosmic crunch theory. Answered questions on singularity event with Big Bang. And what exactly? Buying that I'm responding to atheists who cannot rub two brain cells together and form a coherent theory for the beginning of the universe? Plus they're against the coc |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:48:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That’s when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That’s usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is no way to heaven but through Christ. This is a real trigger point for atheist. Hell is misunderstood, as I’m sure you know, given you are well versed in the Bible. Hell is just separation from God. Something atheists will be quite comfortable with I suspect. How is the path to heaven a "real trigger point for atheist" if the atheist has no reason to even believe that heaven exists? In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That’s when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That’s usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. If someone is getting upset about not going to heaven without Christ, I have news for you. They are not atheists, but likely believers of one of the other religions which you dismiss. In your mind you are debating atheists but in reality it sounds like you’ve just been telling Jews they aren’t loved by god. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:49:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Way too much overthinking in this thread.
Believe what you want to believe. I was born into a very religious family. After receiving a high-level education I became an atheist. Now I'm in my 50's and finally had some time to reflect upon my life. I find that I do believe that God exists but don't want to partake in religion. Frankly, the smugness on both sides is so off-putting . |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:51:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Faith.
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:55:36 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If someone is getting upset about not going to heaven without Christ, I have news for you. They are not atheists, but likely believers of one of the other religions which you dismiss. In your mind you are debating atheists but in reality it sounds like you’ve just been telling Jews they aren’t loved by god. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is no way to heaven but through Christ. This is a real trigger point for atheist. Hell is misunderstood, as I’m sure you know, given you are well versed in the Bible. Hell is just separation from God. Something atheists will be quite comfortable with I suspect. How is the path to heaven a "real trigger point for atheist" if the atheist has no reason to even believe that heaven exists? In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That’s when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That’s usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. If someone is getting upset about not going to heaven without Christ, I have news for you. They are not atheists, but likely believers of one of the other religions which you dismiss. In your mind you are debating atheists but in reality it sounds like you’ve just been telling Jews they aren’t loved by god. Atheists tend to put themselves into the position of believer when debating. For example, they usually start out with, well why should I believe your religion. When we get to why it has to be one of the monotheistic religions, they almost always move to Islam. I’m not sure why, but atheists have an affinity for Islam. Maybe they think it rubs Christians the wrong way. Long story short, they are at this point, invested in the conversation not as a believer, but as an anti-Christian. Unless you want to argue that atheists don’t detest Christianity? |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:57:33 PM EDT
[#28]
It doesn't matter if your are a theist or atheist. What you think about how the universe got here, how it started, why it follows certain rules, these are the realm of belief, not the realm of science.
If you believe God is, always was, always will be, and created it all, then that's your belief. There is no proof, there never will be (unless you die, then you'll find out I suppose). if you believe the universe spontaneously sprung from nothing, that's a belief. No one can prove or disprove it. neither position is falsifiable. So choose your religion, or simply say "I don't know". Those are really the only choices the universe (or God) has given you. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:58:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If someone is getting upset about not going to heaven without Christ, I have news for you. They are not atheists, but likely believers of one of the other religions which you dismiss. In your mind you are debating atheists but in reality it sounds like you’ve just been telling Jews they aren’t loved by god. Since the debates are purely imaginary, they can be whomever he wants them to be. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 11:59:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If something is infinite, then it does not come from anything. Infinite set theory isn't terrible complex to understand. The issue is that the universe cannot be infinite. It's metaphysically impossible in my opinion. Furthermore, the majority of scientist agree with me. The universe is finite. That said, there is nothing illogical about something existing beyond time and space. In fact, I believe it's more probable that a being can be infinite and exist beyond time and space, than the universe springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing. But not only does it spring into existence, uncaused, from nothing, but it's also so finely tuned it has the exact physical properties to allow for life permitting planets. But not only is it so finely tuned for life permitting planets, it also has a built in mechanism in which organisms can evolve. In fact, they can evolve so much, that those organisms can develop consciousness. And at the end, you have atoms, that have evolved so much, that they can reflect on themselves. The universe isn't tuned for planets, or life, or consciousness. All of those came to exist based on gravity, the structure of matter, and billions of years of those gravity and matter interacting to form ever increasing complexity. Planets and life and consciousness are finely tuned based on the physical parameters of the universe. In time, all eventualities that are possible become inevitable. And while the universe we live in may be finite, that doesn't mean it's the only universe that exists or has existed or will exist. We are just unable to grasp the proper scale to comprehend those possibilities. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:01:42 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesn't matter if your are a theist or atheist. What you think about how the universe got here, how it started, why it follows certain rules, these are the realm of belief, not the realm of science. If you believe God is, always was, always will be, and created it all, then that's your belief. There is no proof, there never will be (unless you die, then you'll find out I suppose). if you believe the universe spontaneously sprung from nothing, that's a belief. No one can prove or disprove it. neither position is falsifiable. So choose your religion, or simply say "I don't know". Those are really the only choices the universe (or God) has given you. You sound like a reductionist? Everything can be explained by chemistry and science? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:04:58 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atheists tend to put themselves into the position of believer when debating. For example, they usually start out with, well why should I believe your religion. When we get to why it has to be one of the monotheistic religions, they almost always move to Islam. I’m not sure why, but atheists have an affinity for Islam. Maybe they think it rubs Christians the wrong way. Long story short, they are at this point, invested in the conversation not as a believer, but as an anti-Christian. Unless you want to argue that atheists don’t detest Christianity? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is no way to heaven but through Christ. This is a real trigger point for atheist. Hell is misunderstood, as I’m sure you know, given you are well versed in the Bible. Hell is just separation from God. Something atheists will be quite comfortable with I suspect. How is the path to heaven a "real trigger point for atheist" if the atheist has no reason to even believe that heaven exists? In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That’s when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That’s usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. If someone is getting upset about not going to heaven without Christ, I have news for you. They are not atheists, but likely believers of one of the other religions which you dismiss. In your mind you are debating atheists but in reality it sounds like you’ve just been telling Jews they aren’t loved by god. Atheists tend to put themselves into the position of believer when debating. For example, they usually start out with, well why should I believe your religion. When we get to why it has to be one of the monotheistic religions, they almost always move to Islam. I’m not sure why, but atheists have an affinity for Islam. Maybe they think it rubs Christians the wrong way. Long story short, they are at this point, invested in the conversation not as a believer, but as an anti-Christian. Unless you want to argue that atheists don’t detest Christianity? “Atheists” don’t do anything or hold any position as a whole in regard to their personal feelings about Christianity. Some Athiests detest Christianity, some do not. Some Christians detest Atheists, some do not. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:07:25 AM EDT
[#33]
I accept that I do not have or there is not a convenient answer for every question.
Is anyone attempting to imply that anyone, religious or not has all the answers? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:08:00 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no "before" the Big Bang. It's hard for our brains to wrap around, but asking what happened before the Big Bang is like asking "what's North of the North Pole?" The question itself has no meaning. There is scientific speculation about that, there is the Big Crunch theory that suggests that the Big Bang was just one of many, the universe crunches expands then it begins to shrink down to a singularity again to make a new big bang. Of course it all goes back to the OP's question even then of what started it all to begin with and religions will always point to God. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:09:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is flawed and backwards logic. The universe isn't tuned for planets, or life, or consciousness. All of those came to exist based on gravity, the structure of matter, and billions of years of those gravity and matter interacting to form ever increasing complexity. Planets and life and consciousness are finely tuned based on the physical parameters of the universe. In time, all eventualities that are possible become inevitable. And while the universe we live in may be finite, that doesn't mean it's the only universe that exists or has existed or will exist. We are just unable to grasp the proper scale to comprehend those possibilities. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If something is infinite, then it does not come from anything. Infinite set theory isn't terrible complex to understand. The issue is that the universe cannot be infinite. It's metaphysically impossible in my opinion. Furthermore, the majority of scientist agree with me. The universe is finite. That said, there is nothing illogical about something existing beyond time and space. In fact, I believe it's more probable that a being can be infinite and exist beyond time and space, than the universe springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing. But not only does it spring into existence, uncaused, from nothing, but it's also so finely tuned it has the exact physical properties to allow for life permitting planets. But not only is it so finely tuned for life permitting planets, it also has a built in mechanism in which organisms can evolve. In fact, they can evolve so much, that those organisms can develop consciousness. And at the end, you have atoms, that have evolved so much, that they can reflect on themselves. The universe isn't tuned for planets, or life, or consciousness. All of those came to exist based on gravity, the structure of matter, and billions of years of those gravity and matter interacting to form ever increasing complexity. Planets and life and consciousness are finely tuned based on the physical parameters of the universe. In time, all eventualities that are possible become inevitable. And while the universe we live in may be finite, that doesn't mean it's the only universe that exists or has existed or will exist. We are just unable to grasp the proper scale to comprehend those possibilities. Missed a few. ratio of the electromagnetic force ratio of the density of dark energy the number of spacial dimensions abundance of carbon |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:15:57 AM EDT
[#36]
The universe has no beginning or end. These are human constructs.
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:17:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The universe has no beginning or end. These are human constructs. You believe that male and female are human constructs too right? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:22:12 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Missed a few. ratio of the electromagnetic force ratio of the density of dark energy the number of spacial dimensions abundance of carbon Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If something is infinite, then it does not come from anything. Infinite set theory isn't terrible complex to understand. The issue is that the universe cannot be infinite. It's metaphysically impossible in my opinion. Furthermore, the majority of scientist agree with me. The universe is finite. That said, there is nothing illogical about something existing beyond time and space. In fact, I believe it's more probable that a being can be infinite and exist beyond time and space, than the universe springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing. But not only does it spring into existence, uncaused, from nothing, but it's also so finely tuned it has the exact physical properties to allow for life permitting planets. But not only is it so finely tuned for life permitting planets, it also has a built in mechanism in which organisms can evolve. In fact, they can evolve so much, that those organisms can develop consciousness. And at the end, you have atoms, that have evolved so much, that they can reflect on themselves. The universe isn't tuned for planets, or life, or consciousness. All of those came to exist based on gravity, the structure of matter, and billions of years of those gravity and matter interacting to form ever increasing complexity. Planets and life and consciousness are finely tuned based on the physical parameters of the universe. In time, all eventualities that are possible become inevitable. And while the universe we live in may be finite, that doesn't mean it's the only universe that exists or has existed or will exist. We are just unable to grasp the proper scale to comprehend those possibilities. Missed a few. ratio of the electromagnetic force ratio of the density of dark energy the number of spacial dimensions abundance of carbon If man was made in god's own image, and god lives outside space and time, why does god need arms and legs and a body at all? If god is infinite and doesn't exist of matter (which decays), what's the body for? If god can hear silent prayers and see all deeds regardless of distance or time, why does god need eyes? If god is omnipotent, why create lesser creatures like angels and humans to preside over? Omnipotence doesn't allow emotion or boredom or ambition. Those are all human traits. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:23:51 AM EDT
[#39]
Not an athiest, but it may prove impossible to explain because we can't observe anything from any period prior to the big bang.
Just because we can't observe it well enough to explain it doesn’t mean that there weren't physical processes occurring prior to that event which explain how we got here I don't think hanging your hat on an area of science that we are presently incapable of making observations about is a solid "gotcha" like you think it is. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:24:58 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You believe that male and female are human constructs too right? Nope. Biology dictated. You believe the world was created 5000 years ago, don’t you? And also for some reason God loves America a bunch but waited like 4700~ years to make it. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:28:30 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. An infinite causal chain by successive addition would be metaphysically absurd. You would have an infinite number of events before arriving at today, which means you would never arrive at today. Now, biblically, something that far predates science, God has always been eternal. Which means, he exists outside of time and space. He never began to exist. You might dislike that idea, but there is no logical inconsistency which an eternal being, science, or metaphysical absurdities. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OP is forgetting something. That the same question can be applied to any ultimate being/god. The creator of everything, what was its origin? If one uses the classic response of 'always was, cannot not be' then there could also be anything else which 'always was and cannot not be' I disagree. An infinite causal chain by successive addition would be metaphysically absurd. You would have an infinite number of events before arriving at today, which means you would never arrive at today. Now, biblically, something that far predates science, God has always been eternal. Which means, he exists outside of time and space. He never began to exist. You might dislike that idea, but there is no logical inconsistency which an eternal being, science, or metaphysical absurdities. The principle rule of physical science is really rooted in the laws of thermodynamics. While not entirely understood basic characteristics are believed that matter and energy cannot be created.. there is a finite amount which remain eternally. Since we have never seen it "used" or otherwise altered to equally less than "it was", the amount never changes. Prior to the big bang it is theorized, many black holes exist throughout the universe. Their mass gobbles up matter and energy. Since time doesn't really exist to the essential components, it's all thought to be cyclic. It's really no different than saying God "just exists". Yet, you have physical evidence to make the assertion that everyone can observe. There IS a beginning to the universe, there is NOT a beginning to that which makes it up. You can't really equate religion and science, sciences only job is to oberve and test the physical space around us. Religion is based in faith, with a conclusion already provided |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:39:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can describe any number of ratios or abundances, the same holds true. If man was made in god's own image, and god lives outside space and time, why does god need arms and legs and a body at all? If god is infinite and doesn't exist of matter (which decays), what's the body for? If god can hear silent prayers and see all deeds regardless of distance or time, why does god need eyes? If god is omnipotent, why create lesser creatures like angels and humans to preside over? Omnipotence doesn't allow emotion or boredom or ambition. Those are all human traits. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If something is infinite, then it does not come from anything. Infinite set theory isn't terrible complex to understand. The issue is that the universe cannot be infinite. It's metaphysically impossible in my opinion. Furthermore, the majority of scientist agree with me. The universe is finite. That said, there is nothing illogical about something existing beyond time and space. In fact, I believe it's more probable that a being can be infinite and exist beyond time and space, than the universe springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing. But not only does it spring into existence, uncaused, from nothing, but it's also so finely tuned it has the exact physical properties to allow for life permitting planets. But not only is it so finely tuned for life permitting planets, it also has a built in mechanism in which organisms can evolve. In fact, they can evolve so much, that those organisms can develop consciousness. And at the end, you have atoms, that have evolved so much, that they can reflect on themselves. The universe isn't tuned for planets, or life, or consciousness. All of those came to exist based on gravity, the structure of matter, and billions of years of those gravity and matter interacting to form ever increasing complexity. Planets and life and consciousness are finely tuned based on the physical parameters of the universe. In time, all eventualities that are possible become inevitable. And while the universe we live in may be finite, that doesn't mean it's the only universe that exists or has existed or will exist. We are just unable to grasp the proper scale to comprehend those possibilities. Missed a few. ratio of the electromagnetic force ratio of the density of dark energy the number of spacial dimensions abundance of carbon If man was made in god's own image, and god lives outside space and time, why does god need arms and legs and a body at all? If god is infinite and doesn't exist of matter (which decays), what's the body for? If god can hear silent prayers and see all deeds regardless of distance or time, why does god need eyes? If god is omnipotent, why create lesser creatures like angels and humans to preside over? Omnipotence doesn't allow emotion or boredom or ambition. Those are all human traits. I don’t think God needs any of those things, it could simply be a form he settled on so his creatures could interact with the physical world. Your argument seems to be that if god chooses to take on a physical form, and that form is human, that disproves god exists. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:40:32 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Missed a few. ratio of the electromagnetic force ratio of the density of dark energy the number of spacial dimensions abundance of carbon Carbon makes up less than 5% of the universe and less than 1% of the earth. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:41:14 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my experience and talking with atheists, when I tell them you can only reach heaven through Christ, they all get very upset. The hem and haw about all the other religions. Once we walk through that, they are upset that God would send them to hell. That’s when I let them know that hell is just separation from god. That’s usually followed by a blank stare and lots of blinking. Why should I get upset that non belief means I can't get into a place that doesn't exist? Should I be any more upset that no one will tell me which closet door hides the access to Narnia? And "all the other religions" ? Why should I think they got it any more right? I don't see any reason to believe in reincarnation either. If my chakras were in alignment would it make more sense? Should I embrace the healing power of crystals or encourage my thetans to grow? I don't intend to belittle your belief, because I see it as your right to believe it, I just don't see any reason to believe it myself. If you suggest that heaven and hell are really a state of mind I'd be willing to accept that. A state of emotional being doesn't require the actual existence of anything and can easily be founded on belief alone. Is this where I'm supposed to be upset that an omnipotent being that doesn't exist will send me to a bad place that doesn't exist for not believing that any of it is supposed to exist, or for not feeling guilty for things I haven't done, or the things that I have done like not believing in the existence of the omnipotent being and that angers the omnipotent being that doesn't exist? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:42:57 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. Biology dictated. You believe the world was created 5000 years ago, don’t you? And also for some reason God loves America a bunch but waited like 4700~ years to make it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You believe that male and female are human constructs too right? Nope. Biology dictated. You believe the world was created 5000 years ago, don’t you? And also for some reason God loves America a bunch but waited like 4700~ years to make it. No I don’t. What do you mean biology dictated it? We are all just cosmic accidents in your world view. Biology is a random evolutionary process. We could have just as easily evolved hooves and tentacles for procreation. Right my dude? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:44:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Based off the same biblical text that specified how the universe was created. OK, so the bible is correct and the source of truth. God is eternal and he created the universe according to Genesis. If the bible gives me rules on how to govern slaves, is slavery allowable today? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:44:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Universe is a simulation. Something about mice and dolphins or something like that. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:44:51 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The principle rule of physical science is really rooted in the laws of thermodynamics. While not entirely understood basic characteristics are believed that matter and energy cannot be created.. there is a finite amount which remain eternally. Since we have never seen it "used" or otherwise altered to equally less than "it was", the amount never changes. Prior to the big bang it is theorized, many black holes exist throughout the universe. Their mass gobbles up matter and energy. Since time doesn't really exist to the essential components, it's all thought to be cyclic. It's really no different than saying God "just exists". Yet, you have physical evidence to make the assertion that everyone can observe. There IS a beginning to the universe, there is NOT a beginning to that which makes it up. You can't really equate religion and science, sciences only job is to oberve and test the physical space around us. Religion is based in faith, with a conclusion already provided Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: OP is forgetting something. That the same question can be applied to any ultimate being/god. The creator of everything, what was its origin? If one uses the classic response of 'always was, cannot not be' then there could also be anything else which 'always was and cannot not be' I disagree. An infinite causal chain by successive addition would be metaphysically absurd. You would have an infinite number of events before arriving at today, which means you would never arrive at today. Now, biblically, something that far predates science, God has always been eternal. Which means, he exists outside of time and space. He never began to exist. You might dislike that idea, but there is no logical inconsistency which an eternal being, science, or metaphysical absurdities. The principle rule of physical science is really rooted in the laws of thermodynamics. While not entirely understood basic characteristics are believed that matter and energy cannot be created.. there is a finite amount which remain eternally. Since we have never seen it "used" or otherwise altered to equally less than "it was", the amount never changes. Prior to the big bang it is theorized, many black holes exist throughout the universe. Their mass gobbles up matter and energy. Since time doesn't really exist to the essential components, it's all thought to be cyclic. It's really no different than saying God "just exists". Yet, you have physical evidence to make the assertion that everyone can observe. There IS a beginning to the universe, there is NOT a beginning to that which makes it up. You can't really equate religion and science, sciences only job is to oberve and test the physical space around us. Religion is based in faith, with a conclusion already provided Why do you mean by, there is NOT a beginning to that which makes it up? You are arguing that matter if infinite? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:45:10 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Carbon makes up less than 5% of the universe and less than 1% of the earth. Carbon Not Carbon dioxide |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:45:47 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you mean by, there is NOT a beginning to that which makes it up? You are arguing that matter if infinite? I'm arguing it's been observed to be infinite. |
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