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Posted: 9/29/2021 9:57:00 AM EDT
[#1]
It’s obviously turtles all the way down.
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:34:50 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Faith is nothing more than believing that there is a God, and not requiring proof. God made the Universe, and anything that denies that it was God, is confusion and chaos. I reject atheism, because it is a belief system that is chaotic, and doesn’t make a bit of sense. So I am a Christian. Atheism isn't a belief system at all. It's really just the absence of belief in any specific claim of divine revelation. The possibilities presented by a hard unknown, like what lies beyond a singularity, are infinite. It's often presented by Christians as if the only possibilities are random chance or Southern Baptism, but that's nonsense and you know it. I can entertain the possibility of an infinite number of potential divinities without becoming a theist. Theism demands a personal God, who intervenes in natural causality, and revelation specifically because that's the only path to vest divine authority in claims made by human beings, and get scripture and doctrine and commandments. Conceiving of God as a personage might seem like a harmless reflection of the mind doing the conceiving, but it's really creating God in your own image, and demanding, or at least encouraging others to worship it. Even theists have to believe in natural causality, so a personal god can intervene in it, not to mention the billions of light years of observable universe in which it is constant. The expectation of natural causality is what lets us know letting kids play in traffic is a bad idea, and anything that weakens it is inherently maladaptive. Prophecy is perhaps the most destructive form of this, the expectation that God will intervene in natural causality in a specific way in the future is a recipe for catastrophe. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 11:08:34 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol no it wasn't, you're back pedaling after being caught. It's the Hallmark of intellectually dishonest pseudointellectuals. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 11:53:55 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atheists trying to wiggle out of Original Big Bang theory. Assuming you got your information from the good ol internetz? “The singularity is out-of-reach on the standard metric only if one proceeds toward it through an open interval instant by instant; but if we regress by distances of equal non-zero temporal intervals, then we do reach an absolute origin of the universe in a finite number of steps, in that we arrive at a first year, or hour, or second, or what have you, even though those temporal segments lack a first instant - Smith (1985)” Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's my understanding that everything didn't come from nothing, everything came from a singularity. Within such a mathematical impossibility mass, gravity, and time are meaningless, they become infinitely fractional. We can tell exactly where it happened, and with some precision almost exactly when it happened, and can back calculate what happened, once it started to happen. The atheist answer to what preceded that event is somewhere between "we haven't figured that out yet", "we haven't figured out if it even can be figured out", and "it's unknowable". Not knowing, and not having a better answer doesn't exactly keep me up at night, it's not like the lack of an irrefutable answer disproves the existence of the whole universe. Atheists trying to wiggle out of Original Big Bang theory. Assuming you got your information from the good ol internetz? “The singularity is out-of-reach on the standard metric only if one proceeds toward it through an open interval instant by instant; but if we regress by distances of equal non-zero temporal intervals, then we do reach an absolute origin of the universe in a finite number of steps, in that we arrive at a first year, or hour, or second, or what have you, even though those temporal segments lack a first instant - Smith (1985)” I honestly don't see what you claim I'm trying to "wiggle out of". What is meant by the "Original Big Bang theory"? You do realize that science itself is an evolutionary process of understanding so a concept like the big bang isn't a static thing and my comments were about the understanding at the instant, and the attempts to understand it to t=0 and especially what would have preceded that instant. It's as difficult to resolve as "What's beyond the edge of the universe?" If you were somehow able to go to the edge, you'd see the back side of 13.77 Billion year old light +/-40 million years, but it would be a dimensional boundary moving at the speed of light. It's unobservable to our 3 dimensional existence. What's beyond it? It's the same thing, or absence of anything that existed before the universe. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:54:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atheism isn't a belief system at all. It's really just the absence of belief in any specific claim of divine revelation. The possibilities presented by a hard unknown, like what lies beyond a singularity, are infinite. It's often presented by Christians as if the only possibilities are random chance or Southern Baptism, but that's nonsense and you know it. I can entertain the possibility of an infinite number of potential divinities without becoming a theist. Theism demands a personal God, who intervenes in natural causality, and revelation specifically because that's the only path to vest divine authority in claims made by human beings, and get scripture and doctrine and commandments. Conceiving of God as a personage might seem like a harmless reflection of the mind doing the conceiving, but it's really creating God in your own image, and demanding, or at least encouraging others to worship it. Even theists have to believe in natural causality, so a personal god can intervene in it, not to mention the billions of light years of observable universe in which it is constant. The expectation of natural causality is what lets us know letting kids play in traffic is a bad idea, and anything that weakens it is inherently maladaptive. Prophecy is perhaps the most destructive form of this, the expectation that God will intervene in natural causality in a specific way in the future is a recipe for catastrophe. Atheism is a belief system. I’m tired of people saying it’s not. A lack of belief in something, is a belief. Yes, theism demands a God. However, Atheism demands an unguided natural process to answer all of its major events. This unguided natural process would need to be able to accomplish the following: 1. Create the universe: springing it into existence, uncaused, from nothing. 2. By random chance, the Big Bang expels the precisely fine tuned physical properties (i.e. Gravity) needed to allow for life permitting planets to form. 3. Nature requires a built in mechanism that allows life to evolve at random. Edit: Please note this does not however even explain how first life begins. 4. Consciousness can be achieved as a result of random evolution. The complexity of the mind, which happens by accident, thus allows matter to reflect upon itself. Coming full circle. All of this is through a natural unguided process of random mutation and chance. I do not see how one can look at say, writing on a page, and deduce it came from anything but an intelligent mind. Yet an atheist will look at the human genome, billions of letters, and deduce it came from the bottom up, due to a cosmic accident or random chance. I’m still waiting for an atheist to provide at least an attempt at explaining the beginnings of the universe. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 12:58:43 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I honestly don't see what you claim I'm trying to "wiggle out of". What is meant by the "Original Big Bang theory"? You do realize that science itself is an evolutionary process of understanding so a concept like the big bang isn't a static thing and my comments were about the understanding at the instant, and the attempts to understand it to t=0 and especially what would have preceded that instant. It's as difficult to resolve as "What's beyond the edge of the universe?" If you were somehow able to go to the edge, you'd see the back side of 13.77 Billion year old light +/-40 million years, but it would be a dimensional boundary moving at the speed of light. It's unobservable to our 3 dimensional existence. What's beyond it? It's the same thing, or absence of anything that existed before the universe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's my understanding that everything didn't come from nothing, everything came from a singularity. Within such a mathematical impossibility mass, gravity, and time are meaningless, they become infinitely fractional. We can tell exactly where it happened, and with some precision almost exactly when it happened, and can back calculate what happened, once it started to happen. The atheist answer to what preceded that event is somewhere between "we haven't figured that out yet", "we haven't figured out if it even can be figured out", and "it's unknowable". Not knowing, and not having a better answer doesn't exactly keep me up at night, it's not like the lack of an irrefutable answer disproves the existence of the whole universe. Atheists trying to wiggle out of Original Big Bang theory. Assuming you got your information from the good ol internetz? “The singularity is out-of-reach on the standard metric only if one proceeds toward it through an open interval instant by instant; but if we regress by distances of equal non-zero temporal intervals, then we do reach an absolute origin of the universe in a finite number of steps, in that we arrive at a first year, or hour, or second, or what have you, even though those temporal segments lack a first instant - Smith (1985)” I honestly don't see what you claim I'm trying to "wiggle out of". What is meant by the "Original Big Bang theory"? You do realize that science itself is an evolutionary process of understanding so a concept like the big bang isn't a static thing and my comments were about the understanding at the instant, and the attempts to understand it to t=0 and especially what would have preceded that instant. It's as difficult to resolve as "What's beyond the edge of the universe?" If you were somehow able to go to the edge, you'd see the back side of 13.77 Billion year old light +/-40 million years, but it would be a dimensional boundary moving at the speed of light. It's unobservable to our 3 dimensional existence. What's beyond it? It's the same thing, or absence of anything that existed before the universe. Not you, Atheist scientists. They will do anything to try and wiggle out of the universe beginning to exist. It’s damning for them. I will say, we are 4 dimensional beings, not 3. Length, Width, Height, and Time being the 4th. I’m currently reading about other dimensions and trying to wrap my head around it. But it seems science believes there are at least 11 dimensions. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:09:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atheism is a belief system. I’m tired of people saying it’s not. A lack of belief in something, is a belief. Yes, theism demands a God. However, Atheism demands an unguided natural process to answer all of its major events. This unguided natural process would need to be able to accomplish the following: 1. Create the universe: springing it into existence, uncaused, from nothing. 2. By random chance, the Big Bang expels the precisely fine tuned physical properties (i.e. Gravity) needed to allow for life permitting planets to form. 3. Nature requires a built in mechanism that allows life to evolve at random. 4. Consciousness can be achieved as a result of random evolution. The complexity of the mind, which happens by accident, thus allows matter to reflect upon itself. Coming full circle. All of this is through a natural unguided process of random mutation and chance. I do not see how one can look at say, writing on a page, and deduce it came from anything but an intelligent mind. Yet an atheist will look at the human genome, billions of letters, and deduce it came from the bottom up, due to a cosmic accident or random chance. I’m still waiting for an atheist to provide at least an attempt at explaining the beginnings of the universe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Atheism isn't a belief system at all. It's really just the absence of belief in any specific claim of divine revelation. The possibilities presented by a hard unknown, like what lies beyond a singularity, are infinite. It's often presented by Christians as if the only possibilities are random chance or Southern Baptism, but that's nonsense and you know it. I can entertain the possibility of an infinite number of potential divinities without becoming a theist. Theism demands a personal God, who intervenes in natural causality, and revelation specifically because that's the only path to vest divine authority in claims made by human beings, and get scripture and doctrine and commandments. Conceiving of God as a personage might seem like a harmless reflection of the mind doing the conceiving, but it's really creating God in your own image, and demanding, or at least encouraging others to worship it. Even theists have to believe in natural causality, so a personal god can intervene in it, not to mention the billions of light years of observable universe in which it is constant. The expectation of natural causality is what lets us know letting kids play in traffic is a bad idea, and anything that weakens it is inherently maladaptive. Prophecy is perhaps the most destructive form of this, the expectation that God will intervene in natural causality in a specific way in the future is a recipe for catastrophe. Atheism is a belief system. I’m tired of people saying it’s not. A lack of belief in something, is a belief. Yes, theism demands a God. However, Atheism demands an unguided natural process to answer all of its major events. This unguided natural process would need to be able to accomplish the following: 1. Create the universe: springing it into existence, uncaused, from nothing. 2. By random chance, the Big Bang expels the precisely fine tuned physical properties (i.e. Gravity) needed to allow for life permitting planets to form. 3. Nature requires a built in mechanism that allows life to evolve at random. 4. Consciousness can be achieved as a result of random evolution. The complexity of the mind, which happens by accident, thus allows matter to reflect upon itself. Coming full circle. All of this is through a natural unguided process of random mutation and chance. I do not see how one can look at say, writing on a page, and deduce it came from anything but an intelligent mind. Yet an atheist will look at the human genome, billions of letters, and deduce it came from the bottom up, due to a cosmic accident or random chance. I’m still waiting for an atheist to provide at least an attempt at explaining the beginnings of the universe. Atheism doesn't demand answers at all. It's okay to admit that we can't know everything. Not every atheist is Carl Sagan, and most that I have met spend little time dwelling on theoretical astrophysics. Also, science isn't inherently atheistic, and there are lots of scientists who are Christians. Science certainly isn't "the religion of atheism." You are arguing against a stereotype. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:11:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atheism is a belief system. I’m tired of people saying it’s not. A lack of belief in something, is a belief. this isn't quite right, but you're on the right track. atheism is a belief, not a belief system. it is the positive claim that gods (in the way that they are commonly conceptualized) do not exist. IOW, it's a singular claim, not a group of interdependent ideas. your statement about the lack of belief is logically false, however--it violates the law of noncontradiction: ~(A^~A). in normal language, there is a difference between non-belief and disbelief. atheism is disbelief, which can be expressed as belief-that-not (and therefore is a belief). |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:18:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Both theories require faith. Whatever was before the Creation event/Big Bang will be a mystery for the foreseeable future. I place my faith in a supreme being. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:19:40 PM EDT
[#10]
I don't know and I have more important things to consume my available computational cycles with.
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:23:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not you, Atheist scientists. They will do anything to try and wiggle out of the universe beginning to exist. It’s damning for them. I will say, we are 4 dimensional beings, not 3. Length, Width, Height, and Time being the 4th. I’m currently reading about other dimensions and trying to wrap my head around it. But it seems science believes there are at least 11 dimensions. First, I am an atheist scientist, but my discipline has nothing to do with the origins of the universe, they are all terrestrial and involve observation of well established systems. Second, we're three dimensional beings in 4th dimensional world. If one were to approach the edge of the universe, that 4th dimension goes to zero as one approaches the speed of light (space time curved and all) so dimensionally it becomes unobservable. Just as a one dimensional being would only see points on a line in a two dimensional world, and a two dimensional being would only see lines on planes in a three dimensional world, we can only see time as it's current state as three dimensional beings in a 4th dimensional world. Third, If you're aware of the concept of "the god of the gaps" you may understand why atheists may "wiggle out of an answer" regarding the ultimate origin of the universe. If you don't know, the god of the gaps is a common occurence throughout science, when many truly great minds that made huge advancements in scientific understanding, when pressed beyond their expertise for answers "I don't know, god did it" was the basic answer. Well if one doesn't believe god exists, that simple cop out is off the table, and seemingly endless experiences of "I don't know" being answered with a "gotcha, you don't know, therefore whatever hairbraind idea I present is valid" is really tiring. The result is to just dodge the question. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:26:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not an atheist, but some scientists do not believe in the Big Bang. Not an atheist, but not sure why it all had to have a single starting point caused by a cosmic 'other' (God, god, supreme being turning his henchmen into dogs, whatever). |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:40:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know and I have more important things to consume my available computational cycles with. best answer so far. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:59:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First, I am an atheist scientist, but my discipline has nothing to do with the origins of the universe, they are all terrestrial and involve observation of well established systems. Second, we're three dimensional beings in 4th dimensional world. If one were to approach the edge of the universe, that 4th dimension goes to zero as one approaches the speed of light (space time curved and all) so dimensionally it becomes unobservable. Just as a one dimensional being would only see points on a line in a two dimensional world, and a two dimensional being would only see lines on planes in a three dimensional world, we can only see time as it's current state as three dimensional beings in a 4th dimensional world. Third, If you're aware of the concept of "the god of the gaps" you may understand why atheists may "wiggle out of an answer" regarding the ultimate origin of the universe. If you don't know, the god of the gaps is a common occurence throughout science, when many truly great minds that made huge advancements in scientific understanding, when pressed beyond their expertise for answers "I don't know, god did it" was the basic answer. Well if one doesn't believe god exists, that simple cop out is off the table, and seemingly endless experiences of "I don't know" being answered with a "gotcha, you don't know, therefore whatever hairbraind idea I present is valid" is really tiring. The result is to just dodge the question. I disagree with your 3 dimensionality. I can experience time. Because I cannot experience the outer reaches of time, does not mean I cannot experience a dimensionality of time. Therefore, I will respectfully disagree that we are just 3 dimensional beings. As for the God of the gaps argument, I in no way want people to stop searching for answers through science. That said, if I believe that the best explanation for the origin of the universe is God, you cannot in bad faith claim it’s a God of the gaps argument and I am trying to stifle scientific progress. One can believe God exists, and also want to further scientific research. In my eyes, it will only further prove God exists. I welcome it. For example, in 1929 when Hubble confirmed that galaxies outside our own Milky Way were moving away from us, thus paving the way to prove the universe is indeed expanding, from a single point, it only furthers the religious belief in a creator. At the time, the universes expansion was laughed at. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 1:59:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atheism is a belief system. I’m tired of people saying it’s not. A lack of belief in something, is a belief. Yes, theism demands a God. However, Atheism demands an unguided natural process to answer all of its major events. This unguided natural process would need to be able to accomplish the following: 1. Create the universe: springing it into existence, uncaused, from nothing. 2. By random chance, the Big Bang expels the precisely fine tuned physical properties (i.e. Gravity) needed to allow for life permitting planets to form. 3. Nature requires a built in mechanism that allows life to evolve at random. Edit: Please note this does not however even explain how first life begins. 4. Consciousness can be achieved as a result of random evolution. The complexity of the mind, which happens by accident, thus allows matter to reflect upon itself. Coming full circle. All of this is through a natural unguided process of random mutation and chance. I do not see how one can look at say, writing on a page, and deduce it came from anything but an intelligent mind. Yet an atheist will look at the human genome, billions of letters, and deduce it came from the bottom up, due to a cosmic accident or random chance. I’m still waiting for an atheist to provide at least an attempt at explaining the beginnings of the universe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Atheism isn't a belief system at all. It's really just the absence of belief in any specific claim of divine revelation. The possibilities presented by a hard unknown, like what lies beyond a singularity, are infinite. It's often presented by Christians as if the only possibilities are random chance or Southern Baptism, but that's nonsense and you know it. I can entertain the possibility of an infinite number of potential divinities without becoming a theist. Theism demands a personal God, who intervenes in natural causality, and revelation specifically because that's the only path to vest divine authority in claims made by human beings, and get scripture and doctrine and commandments. Conceiving of God as a personage might seem like a harmless reflection of the mind doing the conceiving, but it's really creating God in your own image, and demanding, or at least encouraging others to worship it. Even theists have to believe in natural causality, so a personal god can intervene in it, not to mention the billions of light years of observable universe in which it is constant. The expectation of natural causality is what lets us know letting kids play in traffic is a bad idea, and anything that weakens it is inherently maladaptive. Prophecy is perhaps the most destructive form of this, the expectation that God will intervene in natural causality in a specific way in the future is a recipe for catastrophe. Atheism is a belief system. I’m tired of people saying it’s not. A lack of belief in something, is a belief. Yes, theism demands a God. However, Atheism demands an unguided natural process to answer all of its major events. This unguided natural process would need to be able to accomplish the following: 1. Create the universe: springing it into existence, uncaused, from nothing. 2. By random chance, the Big Bang expels the precisely fine tuned physical properties (i.e. Gravity) needed to allow for life permitting planets to form. 3. Nature requires a built in mechanism that allows life to evolve at random. Edit: Please note this does not however even explain how first life begins. 4. Consciousness can be achieved as a result of random evolution. The complexity of the mind, which happens by accident, thus allows matter to reflect upon itself. Coming full circle. All of this is through a natural unguided process of random mutation and chance. I do not see how one can look at say, writing on a page, and deduce it came from anything but an intelligent mind. Yet an atheist will look at the human genome, billions of letters, and deduce it came from the bottom up, due to a cosmic accident or random chance. I’m still waiting for an atheist to provide at least an attempt at explaining the beginnings of the universe. Some people just don't fucking care. Its like asking someone whose never watched football what they think of Tom Brady, when as far as they are concerned he doesn't even exist. Yet here you are, demanding an answer to the beginning of the fucking universe. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 2:14:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some people just don't fucking care. Its like asking someone whose never watched football what they think of Tom Brady, when as far as they are concerned he doesn't even exist. Yet here you are, demanding an answer to the beginning of the fucking universe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Atheism isn't a belief system at all. It's really just the absence of belief in any specific claim of divine revelation. The possibilities presented by a hard unknown, like what lies beyond a singularity, are infinite. It's often presented by Christians as if the only possibilities are random chance or Southern Baptism, but that's nonsense and you know it. I can entertain the possibility of an infinite number of potential divinities without becoming a theist. Theism demands a personal God, who intervenes in natural causality, and revelation specifically because that's the only path to vest divine authority in claims made by human beings, and get scripture and doctrine and commandments. Conceiving of God as a personage might seem like a harmless reflection of the mind doing the conceiving, but it's really creating God in your own image, and demanding, or at least encouraging others to worship it. Even theists have to believe in natural causality, so a personal god can intervene in it, not to mention the billions of light years of observable universe in which it is constant. The expectation of natural causality is what lets us know letting kids play in traffic is a bad idea, and anything that weakens it is inherently maladaptive. Prophecy is perhaps the most destructive form of this, the expectation that God will intervene in natural causality in a specific way in the future is a recipe for catastrophe. Atheism is a belief system. I’m tired of people saying it’s not. A lack of belief in something, is a belief. Yes, theism demands a God. However, Atheism demands an unguided natural process to answer all of its major events. This unguided natural process would need to be able to accomplish the following: 1. Create the universe: springing it into existence, uncaused, from nothing. 2. By random chance, the Big Bang expels the precisely fine tuned physical properties (i.e. Gravity) needed to allow for life permitting planets to form. 3. Nature requires a built in mechanism that allows life to evolve at random. Edit: Please note this does not however even explain how first life begins. 4. Consciousness can be achieved as a result of random evolution. The complexity of the mind, which happens by accident, thus allows matter to reflect upon itself. Coming full circle. All of this is through a natural unguided process of random mutation and chance. I do not see how one can look at say, writing on a page, and deduce it came from anything but an intelligent mind. Yet an atheist will look at the human genome, billions of letters, and deduce it came from the bottom up, due to a cosmic accident or random chance. I’m still waiting for an atheist to provide at least an attempt at explaining the beginnings of the universe. Some people just don't fucking care. Its like asking someone whose never watched football what they think of Tom Brady, when as far as they are concerned he doesn't even exist. Yet here you are, demanding an answer to the beginning of the fucking universe. There are plenty of other threads on this forum I don’t care about. Yet here you are, in a thread about a specific topic regarding the beginnings of the universe to tell us people don’t care. Bravo!! |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 2:26:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree with your 3 dimensionality. I can experience time. Because I cannot experience the outer reaches of time, does not mean I cannot experience a dimensionality of time. Therefore, I will respectfully disagree that we are just 3 dimensional beings. As for the God of the gaps argument, I in no way want people to stop searching for answers through science. That said, if I believe that the best explanation for the origin of the universe is God, you cannot in bad faith claim it’s a God of the gaps argument and I am trying to stifle scientific progress. One can believe God exists, and also want to further scientific research. In my eyes, it will only further prove God exists. I welcome it. For example, in 1929 when Hubble confirmed that galaxies outside our own Milky Way were moving away from us, thus paving the way to prove the universe is indeed expanding, from a single point, it only furthers the religious belief in a creator. At the time, the universes expansion was laughed at. I'm not suggesting that the god of the gaps is an attempt to stifle scientific advancement, it's always just been the go to for people that believe in God as the simple answer for anything beyond their understanding. My non-belief just means that I see the answer like many things in the past that were left as "I don't know, God just did it that way" but were later explained. I see it as "we don't know, yet". If you believe it was God, or Allah, or Vishnu, or Zeus, or Odin, or the old ones, it really makes no difference to me and I'm no greater or lesser for not agreeing and it doesn't change what I know or believe. If asked what's beyond the edge of the universe, and I reply with "creamy nougat", I'm sure you formed an opinion as soon as you read that that the answer is wrong, neither of us know for sure, but it's pretty clear I just made that up with no supporting evidence. That's the way I see any answer regarding what came before the universe because whatever it was, it's still out there past the edge. As to the dimensionality of our being, I'll give you that, we basically have to be fourth dimensional to see the world in three dimensions and be aware of the fourth. It would take a fifth dimensional being to "see" in the fourth dimension. The movie Interstellar has a scene that attempts to demonstrate what that may be like. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 3:05:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP is forgetting something. That the same question can be applied to any ultimate being/god. The creator of everything, what was its origin? If one uses the classic response of 'always was, cannot not be' then there could also be anything else which 'always was and cannot not be' In order for the Biblical God to be, He would or could not have a "beginning" as that would make Him "finite" and not Omniscient, Omnipresent nor Omnipotent. The universe can be seen as a puzzle put together by a person. The puzzle, no matter how grand, must be put together by one outside of it and the puzzle crafter will always be greater than the puzzle, yet I just wax cars what do I know? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 3:27:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. An infinite causal chain by successive addition would be metaphysically absurd. You would have an infinite number of events before arriving at today, which means you would never arrive at today. Now, biblically, something that far predates science, God has always been eternal. Which means, he exists outside of time and space. He never began to exist. You might dislike that idea, but there is no logical inconsistency which an eternal being, science, or metaphysical absurdities. Saying something exists outside of space and time is essentially saying it doesn't exist. We only say something exist when it is in space and time. We can't prove God doesn't exist. But we also can't prove unicorns and vampires don't exist somewhere in the universe. Or a planet full of unicorn riding vampires that pray to a god that looks like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. No one has traveled the entire universe so good luck disproving that. You can't. I believe in God but there is nothing but faith holding it together. Because if God just existed forever, why would it be absurd to say the universe has existed forever? God seems like an unnecessary extra step at that point. If the universe must have been created, then why didn't God have to be created? You can't logic your way through these topics. No one knows. Even if we could find the answer I'm sure our simple primate brains wouldn't be able to comprehend it. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 3:40:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where were you before you were born?  |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 3:46:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Most every post in this thread should start with "my opinion is...."
Most of you think pretty highly of your own opinions. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 4:12:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most every post in this thread should start with "my opinion is...." Most of you think pretty highly of your own opinions. Why shouldn't someone think highly of their opinion after going through the effort to form it and all? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 4:19:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Oh wow, this is still going on. OP still thinks he has the answer to the beginning of the universe?
Somehow a divine being has always existed is believable, but the possibility of a universe having always existed is not believable because it needs a creator in order to exist, but the divine being does not need a creator in order to exist. Mental gymnastics. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 7:00:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh wow, this is still going on. OP still thinks he has the answer to the beginning of the universe? Somehow a divine being has always existed is believable, but the possibility of a universe having always existed is not believable because it needs a creator in order to exist, but the divine being does not need a creator in order to exist. Mental gymnastics. An infinite universe could exist theoretically. It’s when you put it into practice that it becomes a problem. You cannot add to an infinite amount, at least not metaphysically. Mathematically, it would just be infinity + 2. No problem there. Now picture and infinite universe. For the sake of comprehension, imagine an infinite number of events. Now picture right now. This moment in time. The metaphysically absurdity is as follows. If there are an infinite number of events before today, how could one ever arrive at today? As there would always be an event prior to today, at infinite. If we can deduce that the universe is finite, and backed by science given that we are able to see the universe expanding, then we know time and space have a beginning. The obvious question, is how you can get an efficient cause for the beginning of the universe, when the universe does not exist. An old time text, which correctly predicts how the universe unfolded, contends that a being that exists outside of time and space and is eternal was the efficient cause. Furthermore, there was a guy named Jesus, who you may have heard of, and has a plethora of historical backing to have actually existed, and been crucified, who claimed to be God in the flesh. Who’s wisdom is a guiding light to this day. This arguably, gives further validation to biblical text. The question then, is can something eternal exist. Something that has no beginning or end? The atheist would be content with this answer being yes, as long as we are speaking about the universe. However, we have already covered why the universe cannot be infinite, at least metaphysically speaking. Thus the atheist will mock an eternal being, call it a “god of the gaps” while providing little to no theories of how the universe came to be. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 8:25:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If God(s) are real, where did they come from? Who made them? What was here before them? Titans were here before the gods. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:21:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe in God but there is nothing but faith holding it together. Because if God just existed forever, why would it be absurd to say the universe has existed forever? God seems like an unnecessary extra step at that point. If the universe must have been created, then why didn't God have to be created? You can't logic your way through these topics. No one knows. Even if we could find the answer I'm sure our simple primate brains wouldn't be able to comprehend it. You state, "No one knows" yet you went on to explain a lot, correct? You then end with "our simple primate brains wouldn't be able to comprehend it" How do you "know" this? Comprehend what? No offense but your statements are contradictory. Also, "IF" God was created then He could not be God, at least the one defined within Scripture. If God was created then that god would of had to have been created within said universe thus subject to it, he would not be greater than it. Again "IF" the God defined within Scripture is true than He would be Eternal and yes outside of time and space. Yet, I'm just a simple man. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:28:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fair enough. I'm speaking to the best explanation. That is all we can do in this discussion correct? What's your best explanation? I don't think we have enough information to provide a "best explanation". We have some hypotheses and no way to test them. We may never have a way to test them. So my honest answer is: if I guessed, it would be just a guess, and no more likely to be true than any other guess. That means someone saying "I think it was caused by the collision of hyper-dimensional branes (see M theory)", has no more data than someone saying "I think it is a god". Keep in mind, my lack of belief in god is not due to an ability to disprove god/gods (something that is impossible), but rather, a failure of the reasoning (and evidence) of those who assert that a specific god(s) exist(s). |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:30:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Just for the record, unless you were there at the moment the universe was created, it is all just a guess.
Seriously, God did it? prove it to me. The Big Bang? prove it to me. Goku found all seven Dragon Balls and made a wish? maybe  How about we all just enjoy our own beliefs and let everyone else believe whatever the heck they want. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:34:25 PM EDT
[#29]
I’m an atheist. It’s not a religion. I respect that religion teaches moral values, which is ultimately a good thing. Religion is not for me.
For me it means that god may exist, but I don’t buy into it. I was raised for 12 years of my life to believe in Santa clause. It’s about equal in my book. My parents lied to me on purpose, why would I trust some documents that are thousands of years old? People back then were literally stupid. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:51:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m an atheist. It’s not a religion. I respect that religion teaches moral values, which is ultimately a good thing. Religion is not for me. For me it means that god may exist, but I don’t buy into it. I was raised for 12 years of my life to believe in Santa clause. It’s about equal in my book. My parents lied to me on purpose, why would I trust some documents that are thousands of years old? People back then were literally stupid. You are obviously free to believe what you want. As a semi answer to your question, I would say two things. 1) The Bible gets the creation story correct (based off the scientific perspective we generally hold to today). It points out that God creates the universe, is not bound by space and time, and is eternal. A pretty significant feat given that modern science would not be around for another 2000 years or so. 2) Santa Clause is fiction. There is no evidence that Santa really exists. I would argue that Jesus, a historical figure, who we know existed, claimed to be God in the flesh. He either was, or wasn’t. His story is unique and unparalleled, while his wisdom carries on today. I believe this gives Biblical text a certain validation that a Santa Clause story could never have. You are free to disagree, but talks of the sky fairy, Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Santa Clause are usually things I only hear from high school atheist. The more sophisticated ones understand there is actual history behind Christianity and are smart enough not to try and make those parallels. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:56:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just for the record, unless you were there at the moment the universe was created, it is all just a guess. Seriously, God did it? prove it to me. The Big Bang? prove it to me. Goku found all seven Dragon Balls and made a wish? maybe How about we all just enjoy our own beliefs and let everyone else believe whatever the heck they want. Yes, let’s stop discussing the big questions in life. That sounds like a perfectly acceptable way to find answers. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 11:05:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even before the Big Bang, the best scientific minds were Christians well where did they go????! now maybe its just the reverse of now, wehre they paid lip service to Christianity so they could get funding and not be burned at steak(heheheh) |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 11:07:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think we have enough information to provide a "best explanation". We have some hypotheses and no way to test them. We may never have a way to test them. So my honest answer is: if I guessed, it would be just a guess, and no more likely to be true than any other guess. That means someone saying "I think it was caused by the collision of hyper-dimensional branes (see M theory)", has no more data than someone saying "I think it is a god". Keep in mind, my lack of belief in god is not due to an ability to disprove god/gods (something that is impossible), but rather, a failure of the reasoning (and evidence) of those who assert that a specific god(s) exist(s). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fair enough. I'm speaking to the best explanation. That is all we can do in this discussion correct? What's your best explanation? I don't think we have enough information to provide a "best explanation". We have some hypotheses and no way to test them. We may never have a way to test them. So my honest answer is: if I guessed, it would be just a guess, and no more likely to be true than any other guess. That means someone saying "I think it was caused by the collision of hyper-dimensional branes (see M theory)", has no more data than someone saying "I think it is a god". Keep in mind, my lack of belief in god is not due to an ability to disprove god/gods (something that is impossible), but rather, a failure of the reasoning (and evidence) of those who assert that a specific god(s) exist(s). Isn’t this argument self defeating though. Your lack of belief in God is due to a failure in reason and evidence. But you openly state that there will never be evidence to prove God does or does not exist. That leaves you with a failure of reasoning. On a naturalistic view, you are the random result of genetic mutations, a cosmic accident. Therefore, how can you trust your reasoning at all? There is nothing that says your reasoning evolved to reason truth. Therefore you are trusting random evolution, that never had you in mind, to provide not only a logical answer, but one grounded in truth? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 11:20:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, let’s stop discussing the big questions in life. That sounds like a perfectly acceptable way to find answers. I was under the impression that you already have the answer. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 12:39:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, let's stop discussing the big questions in life. That sounds like a perfectly acceptable way to find answers. Never said stop discussing it but there is an air of "God did it" with your title and premise. As if Arfcom Atheists have to prove your belief is wrong. Although I just realized I am having a discussion of the "Big" questions of life with a guy named "thepantydropper".  |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 12:47:13 AM EDT
[#36]
No doubt we solved the origins of the universe with one of our first guesses before anyone knew the Earth was round.
Checkmate.
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Posted: 9/30/2021 8:40:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thepantydroppper I'm not sure why, but atheists have an affinity for Islam. Yeah, I'd like to see you prove that ridiculous assertion. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 8:44:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are obviously free to believe what you want. As a semi answer to your question, I would say two things. 1) The Bible gets the creation story correct (based off the scientific perspective we generally hold to today). It points out that God creates the universe, is not bound by space and time, and is eternal. A pretty significant feat given that modern science would not be around for another 2000 years or so. 2) Santa Clause is fiction. There is no evidence that Santa really exists. I would argue that Jesus, a historical figure, who we know existed, claimed to be God in the flesh. He either was, or wasn't. His story is unique and unparalleled, while his wisdom carries on today. I believe this gives Biblical text a certain validation that a Santa Clause story could never have. You are free to disagree, but talks of the sky fairy, Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Santa Clause are usually things I only hear from high school atheist. The more sophisticated ones understand there is actual history behind Christianity and are smart enough not to try and make those parallels. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 9:02:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An infinite universe could exist theoretically. It’s when you put it into practice that it becomes a problem. You cannot add to an infinite amount, at least not metaphysically. Mathematically, it would just be infinity + 2. No problem there. Now picture and infinite universe. For the sake of comprehension, imagine an infinite number of events. Now picture right now. This moment in time. The metaphysically absurdity is as follows. If there are an infinite number of events before today, how could one ever arrive at today? As there would always be an event prior to today, at infinite. If we can deduce that the universe is finite, and backed by science given that we are able to see the universe expanding, then we know time and space have a beginning. The obvious question, is how you can get an efficient cause for the beginning of the universe, when the universe does not exist. An old time text, which correctly predicts how the universe unfolded, contends that a being that exists outside of time and space and is eternal was the efficient cause. Furthermore, there was a guy named Jesus, who you may have heard of, and has a plethora of historical backing to have actually existed, and been crucified, who claimed to be God in the flesh. Who’s wisdom is a guiding light to this day. This arguably, gives further validation to biblical text. The question then, is can something eternal exist. Something that has no beginning or end? The atheist would be content with this answer being yes, as long as we are speaking about the universe. However, we have already covered why the universe cannot be infinite, at least metaphysically speaking. Thus the atheist will mock an eternal being, call it a “god of the gaps” while providing little to no theories of how the universe came to be. The problem is that we’re always at today, we live in today. We never reach tomorrow. How are you going to tell me if the universe were infinite we can never reach today? We are living in the today, and that’s a fact. We don’t know for sure whether the universe has a beginning or not. You can’t tell me you know for a fact that this universe we live in has a beginning. You’re just speculating. Want to speak about historical texts proving god’s existence, then let’s talk Zeus, Anubis, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, and the many other gods that have historical texts of their existence? What makes your god more real than the others, without faith? So the theist will tell me that something cannot be created out of nothing, but in the beginning, this eternal being created the heavens and the earth, out of nothing? So if this eternal being is able to create something out of nothing, than your whole argument that something cannot come from nothing is null and void. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 9:05:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you cite a substantial amount of non-Christian writers that wrote about a historical Jesus? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are obviously free to believe what you want. As a semi answer to your question, I would say two things. 1) The Bible gets the creation story correct (based off the scientific perspective we generally hold to today). It points out that God creates the universe, is not bound by space and time, and is eternal. A pretty significant feat given that modern science would not be around for another 2000 years or so. 2) Santa Clause is fiction. There is no evidence that Santa really exists. I would argue that Jesus, a historical figure, who we know existed, claimed to be God in the flesh. He either was, or wasn't. His story is unique and unparalleled, while his wisdom carries on today. I believe this gives Biblical text a certain validation that a Santa Clause story could never have. You are free to disagree, but talks of the sky fairy, Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Santa Clause are usually things I only hear from high school atheist. The more sophisticated ones understand there is actual history behind Christianity and are smart enough not to try and make those parallels. Thallos Josephus and Tacitus Mara bar Serapion |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 9:16:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem is that we’re always at today, we live in today. We never reach tomorrow. How are you going to tell me if the universe were infinite we can never reach today? We are living in the today, and that’s a fact. We don’t know for sure whether the universe has a beginning or not. You can’t tell me you know for a fact that this universe we live in has a beginning. You’re just speculating. Want to speak about historical texts proving god’s existence, then let’s talk Zeus, Anubis, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, and the many other gods that have historical texts of their existence? What makes your god more real than the others, without faith? So the theist will tell me that something cannot be created out of nothing, but in the beginning, this eternal being created the heavens and the earth, out of nothing? So if this eternal being is able to create something out of nothing, than your whole argument that something cannot come from nothing is null and void. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: An infinite universe could exist theoretically. It’s when you put it into practice that it becomes a problem. You cannot add to an infinite amount, at least not metaphysically. Mathematically, it would just be infinity + 2. No problem there. Now picture and infinite universe. For the sake of comprehension, imagine an infinite number of events. Now picture right now. This moment in time. The metaphysically absurdity is as follows. If there are an infinite number of events before today, how could one ever arrive at today? As there would always be an event prior to today, at infinite. If we can deduce that the universe is finite, and backed by science given that we are able to see the universe expanding, then we know time and space have a beginning. The obvious question, is how you can get an efficient cause for the beginning of the universe, when the universe does not exist. An old time text, which correctly predicts how the universe unfolded, contends that a being that exists outside of time and space and is eternal was the efficient cause. Furthermore, there was a guy named Jesus, who you may have heard of, and has a plethora of historical backing to have actually existed, and been crucified, who claimed to be God in the flesh. Who’s wisdom is a guiding light to this day. This arguably, gives further validation to biblical text. The question then, is can something eternal exist. Something that has no beginning or end? The atheist would be content with this answer being yes, as long as we are speaking about the universe. However, we have already covered why the universe cannot be infinite, at least metaphysically speaking. Thus the atheist will mock an eternal being, call it a “god of the gaps” while providing little to no theories of how the universe came to be. The problem is that we’re always at today, we live in today. We never reach tomorrow. How are you going to tell me if the universe were infinite we can never reach today? We are living in the today, and that’s a fact. We don’t know for sure whether the universe has a beginning or not. You can’t tell me you know for a fact that this universe we live in has a beginning. You’re just speculating. Want to speak about historical texts proving god’s existence, then let’s talk Zeus, Anubis, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, and the many other gods that have historical texts of their existence? What makes your god more real than the others, without faith? So the theist will tell me that something cannot be created out of nothing, but in the beginning, this eternal being created the heavens and the earth, out of nothing? So if this eternal being is able to create something out of nothing, than your whole argument that something cannot come from nothing is null and void. There is plenty of scientific evidence for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang theory is generally accepted by the majority of the scientific community. As to your time question, that depends. You will reach tomorrow, tomorrow. Assuming you believe that future events will occur, and the past events have occurred. If you agree with the above, then time can be seen as a series of events. If you have an infinite number of events, you would never be able to arrive at today’s set of events, because there would always be a proceeding event. If you have an explanation about how you can reach infinity by successive addition, I’d love to hear it. The second part of your comment has been addressed. There is no evidence for the existence of Thor, Zeus, etc.. Norse mythology also does not work within the scientific framework about what we know regarding the universe. Now take the Bible. If you ever read it, you will notice it reads like a historical document. Naming places and people. Furthermore, as I’ve already mentioned, Jesus Christ existed and claimed to be God in the flesh. He either was or he wasn’t. However you fall on that question, Jesus does give the Bible a different sort of credibility in that it’s tied to a living person. That last part seems to be a contradiction. You say you cannot know if the universe is infinite, yet claim there cannot be an infinite being. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 9:55:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is plenty of scientific evidence for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang theory is generally accepted by the majority of the scientific community. As to your time question, that depends. You will reach tomorrow, tomorrow. Assuming you believe that future events will occur, and the past events have occurred. If you agree with the above, then time can be seen as a series of events. If you have an infinite number of events, you would never be able to arrive at today’s set of events, because there would always be a proceeding event. If you have an explanation about how you can reach infinity by successive addition, I’d love to hear it. The second part of your comment has been addressed. There is no evidence for the existence of Thor, Zeus, etc.. Norse mythology also does not work within the scientific framework about what we know regarding the universe. Now take the Bible. If you ever read it, you will notice it reads like a historical document. Naming places and people. Furthermore, as I’ve already mentioned, Jesus Christ existed and claimed to be God in the flesh. He either was or he wasn’t. However you fall on that question, Jesus does give the Bible a different sort of credibility in that it’s tied to a living person. That last part seems to be a contradiction. You say you cannot know if the universe is infinite, yet claim there cannot be an infinite being. Correction, it is the generally accepted theory of the beginning of the observable universe. No, you’re never going to reach tomorrow, tomorrow never comes, you’re stuck in the present. Future events aren’t certain, nobody knows what, if any, future events will unfold, and nobody can count how many events in the past have occurred, thus infinity. Nobody can tell the future, so the possibilities of what lies in the future are endless. Infinity isn’t a number you can count to. The number line also has no end. There is as much evidence for the existence of Quetzalcoatl as there is of the god of your religion. Speaking of which, how many religions are on this earth right now? How many different gods is that? I have read the Bible. Show me where, scientifically speaking, can the story of Jonah be a reality? A virgin getting pregnant by a spirit? Muhammed also gives the Quran a sort of credibility in that it’s tied to a living person. Again, what makes your bible more credible than the Quran, besides your faith? That contradiction is on your end, you say an infinite universe cannot exist, yet an infinite being can. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 10:30:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correction, it is the generally accepted theory of the beginning of the observable universe. No, you’re never going to reach tomorrow, tomorrow never comes, you’re stuck in the present. Future events aren’t certain, nobody knows what, if any, future events will unfold, and nobody can count how many events in the past have occurred, thus infinity. Nobody can tell the future, so the possibilities of what lies in the future are endless. Infinity isn’t a number you can count to. The number line also has no end. There is as much evidence for the existence of Quetzalcoatl as there is of the god of your religion. Speaking of which, how many religions are on this earth right now? How many different gods is that? I have read the Bible. Show me where, scientifically speaking, can the story of Jonah be a reality? A virgin getting pregnant by a spirit? Muhammed also gives the Quran a sort of credibility in that it’s tied to a living person. Again, what makes your bible more credible than the Quran, besides your faith? That contradiction is on your end, you say an infinite universe cannot exist, yet an infinite being can. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is plenty of scientific evidence for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang theory is generally accepted by the majority of the scientific community. As to your time question, that depends. You will reach tomorrow, tomorrow. Assuming you believe that future events will occur, and the past events have occurred. If you agree with the above, then time can be seen as a series of events. If you have an infinite number of events, you would never be able to arrive at today’s set of events, because there would always be a proceeding event. If you have an explanation about how you can reach infinity by successive addition, I’d love to hear it. The second part of your comment has been addressed. There is no evidence for the existence of Thor, Zeus, etc.. Norse mythology also does not work within the scientific framework about what we know regarding the universe. Now take the Bible. If you ever read it, you will notice it reads like a historical document. Naming places and people. Furthermore, as I’ve already mentioned, Jesus Christ existed and claimed to be God in the flesh. He either was or he wasn’t. However you fall on that question, Jesus does give the Bible a different sort of credibility in that it’s tied to a living person. That last part seems to be a contradiction. You say you cannot know if the universe is infinite, yet claim there cannot be an infinite being. Correction, it is the generally accepted theory of the beginning of the observable universe. No, you’re never going to reach tomorrow, tomorrow never comes, you’re stuck in the present. Future events aren’t certain, nobody knows what, if any, future events will unfold, and nobody can count how many events in the past have occurred, thus infinity. Nobody can tell the future, so the possibilities of what lies in the future are endless. Infinity isn’t a number you can count to. The number line also has no end. There is as much evidence for the existence of Quetzalcoatl as there is of the god of your religion. Speaking of which, how many religions are on this earth right now? How many different gods is that? I have read the Bible. Show me where, scientifically speaking, can the story of Jonah be a reality? A virgin getting pregnant by a spirit? Muhammed also gives the Quran a sort of credibility in that it’s tied to a living person. Again, what makes your bible more credible than the Quran, besides your faith? That contradiction is on your end, you say an infinite universe cannot exist, yet an infinite being can. Let’s get through this time issue first. If tomorrow never comes, yesterday never happened. Just the now. Is that your stance? If not, expand. Your understanding of infinity seems flawed. If time has no beginning, again, how did we reach this point in time? There would always be a prior event in time before today. Please break this down to me, as you seem to be very well trained in time theorem. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 10:42:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let’s get through this time issue first. If tomorrow never comes, yesterday never happened. Just the now. Is that your stance? If not, expand. Your understanding of infinity seems flawed. If time has no beginning, again, how did we reach this point in time? There would always be a prior event in time before today. Please break this down to me, as you seem to be very well trained in time theorem. Yesterday did happen because you can tell me exactly what happened. You can’t tell me with certainty exactly what is going to happen tomorrow. Tomorrow is a future event. You only know what’s happening in the now and what happened in the observable past by you experiencing it. Therefore, ‘if tomorrow never comes, yesterday never happened’ is flawed thinking. My understanding of infinity is that it is endless. Whats you’re understanding of infinity? |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 10:47:03 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yesterday did happen because you can tell me exactly what happened. You can’t tell me with certainty exactly what is going to happen tomorrow. Tomorrow is a future event. You only know what’s happening in the now and what happened in the observable past by you experiencing it. Therefore, ‘if tomorrow never comes, yesterday never happened’ is flawed thinking. My understanding of infinity is that it is endless. Whats you’re understanding of infinity? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Let’s get through this time issue first. If tomorrow never comes, yesterday never happened. Just the now. Is that your stance? If not, expand. Your understanding of infinity seems flawed. If time has no beginning, again, how did we reach this point in time? There would always be a prior event in time before today. Please break this down to me, as you seem to be very well trained in time theorem. Yesterday did happen because you can tell me exactly what happened. You can’t tell me with certainty exactly what is going to happen tomorrow. Tomorrow is a future event. You only know what’s happening in the now and what happened in the observable past by you experiencing it. Therefore, ‘if tomorrow never comes, yesterday never happened’ is flawed thinking. My understanding of infinity is that it is endless. Whats you’re understanding of infinity? So, did the dinosaurs happen? I can’t tell you exactly what happened, but do you accept there were dinosaurs? What about the time on earth where there was no life, did that happen? Infinity has no start and no end. What you are referring to I think, is a potential infinite. An example would be heaven. If trends to infinity, but has a starting point, when God creates it. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 10:50:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, did the dinosaurs happen? I can’t tell you exactly what happened, but do you accept there were dinosaurs? What about the time on earth where there was no life, did that happen? Infinity has no start and no end. What you are referring to I think, is a potential infinite. An example would be heaven. If trends to infinity, but has a starting point, when God creates it. Fossil records seem to indicate they did happen. We don’t know for certain if there was never any life on earth. Do you know for a fact heaven exists, without faith? Faith isnt based on fact and should be excluded. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 10:58:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fossil records seem to indicate they did happen. We don’t know for certain if there was never any life on earth. Do you know for a fact heaven exists, without faith? Faith isnt based on fact and should be excluded. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So, did the dinosaurs happen? I can’t tell you exactly what happened, but do you accept there were dinosaurs? What about the time on earth where there was no life, did that happen? Infinity has no start and no end. What you are referring to I think, is a potential infinite. An example would be heaven. If trends to infinity, but has a starting point, when God creates it. Fossil records seem to indicate they did happen. We don’t know for certain if there was never any life on earth. Do you know for a fact heaven exists, without faith? Faith isnt based on fact and should be excluded. No, of course not. Everyone acts on faith. For example, the problem of deduction. The idea that tomorrow will be like today is a faith claim. You have faith that tomorrow the sun will rise and you will not float out of your chair. It’s based off prior experience. I am presented with two options. Option A - the universe springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing Option B - something that exists BEYOND time and space brings the universe into existence Option B seems far more logical to me than Option A Obviously, this is a matter of opinion, but I’ve provided other scientific reasoning for believing option B to be more plausible. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 11:08:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Left god a message asking about it, but he must be out fishing or something.
I suppose we'll find out when we're all dead. Or not. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 11:13:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am presented with two options. Option A - the universe springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing Option B - something that exists BEYOND time and space brings the universe into existence Option B seems far more logical to me than Option A Obviously, this is a matter of opinion, but I’ve provided other scientific reasoning for believing option B to be more plausible. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 11:15:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, of course not. Everyone acts on faith. For example, the problem of deduction. The idea that tomorrow will be like today is a faith claim. You have faith that tomorrow the sun will rise and you will not float out of your chair. It’s based off prior experience. I am presented with two options. Option A - the universe springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing Option B - something that exists BEYOND time and space brings the universe into existence Option B seems far more logical to me than Option A Obviously, this is a matter of opinion, but I’ve provided other scientific reasoning for believing option B to be more plausible. I do not have faith that tomorrow the ‘sun will rise.’ I know there’s the possibility that it won’t. Option A: god springs into existence, uncaused, from nothing. Option B: something that exists beyond time and space brings god into existence. With the same thought experiment and replacing one word for another, you’ll select a different option. That’s mental gymnastics. If the possibility that a god can exist without being created, the same possibility can happen for a universe to exist without being created. |
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