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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:26:31 AM EDT
[#1]
My guess is that the P-63 lost too much altitude in the turn and the pilot didn't realize he was at the same altitude as the B-17. Couple that with the inability to see the larger plane in the blind spot and I think you get what happened. He probably thought he was still above it all the way through the turn and because he was looking to where he was flying, didn't look at the altimeter to see how much lower he was. Very sad. Rest in peace to those who tragically lost their lives.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:27:34 AM EDT
[#2]
I’m expecting, but not sure, that the smaller aircraft is at fault.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:31:00 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Angle is downward at IP and not through the windshield. Not a good example to use. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Found this pilot's eye view of the -63 cockpit. Not a lot of visibility. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/69748/26666442375_556d4fabaa_b_jpg-2598273.JPG Angle is downward at IP and not through the windshield. Not a good example to use. This pic should give you a good idea of the pilots seating position and view. There is not a lot of visibility in the direction he needed to see the B-17 in the bank and turn he was in.  Its worse for a shorter pilot.   I really don't thing the poor pilot of the P-63 ever saw the B-17 and most certainly had no intention to be in that position. As is said.. We don't know who was out of place. B-17 flying too high in the block? Too far off center line? P-63 swing wide? too low? Don't know. What we know is it is easy to pass blame. My initial thought was the P-63 is out of place. But that would be my opinion (and we know about opinions) and it might turn out to make me an asshole. I am absolutely heart broken. I am learning this morning that I know at least a couple of the dead men.  I am trying to get more info from my sources. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:31:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My guess is that the P-63 lost too much altitude in the turn and the pilot didn't realize he was at the same altitude as the B-17. Couple that with the inability to see the larger plane in the blind spot and I think you get what happened. He probably thought he was still above it all the way through the turn and because he was looking to where he was flying, didn't look at the altimeter to see how much lower he was. Very sad. Rest in peace to those who tragically lost their lives. It does like he lost some altitude, but as I mentioned in a previous post it didn't look as if he had much altitude to lose to have a conflict compared the fighter that was in front of him. Neither seemed very far above the B-17. It could all be a matter of perspective from the camera location though. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:33:49 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The whole point of these discussion threads is to share/exchange information and learn, so fire away. Right now nobody knows enough about anything definitively, and I wasn't there so I'm working off things heard secondhand from guys who were. It is interesting...I was a career USAF pilot, and in that time I lost 17 or 18 friends, classmates, and squadronmates to accidents and combat. Strangely, that didn't bother me that much. It was just part of the job, I suppose. Hard luck, but keep your chin up and press on. But last year a guy I flew with in the USAF and CAF crashed and was killed in a T-6 (the Skytypers crash in Pocono) and this one today...both have been real sucker punches to the gut. I don't know why its different, but it is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My condolences. I’m sure you lost friends and colleagues in this. I’m going to shut my mouth. Obviously talking out of my ass compared to you. Just an awful thing. It is interesting...I was a career USAF pilot, and in that time I lost 17 or 18 friends, classmates, and squadronmates to accidents and combat. Strangely, that didn't bother me that much. It was just part of the job, I suppose. Hard luck, but keep your chin up and press on. But last year a guy I flew with in the USAF and CAF crashed and was killed in a T-6 (the Skytypers crash in Pocono) and this one today...both have been real sucker punches to the gut. I don't know why its different, but it is. It's tough. I have lost half the people I knew and considered friends in aviation to accidents. It makes me not want to get to know more. Nothing against them, great people, I just don't want that gut punch any more. Sorry for your loss. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:34:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither of those things is probably causal. The P-63 pilot was an active United Airlines 777 pilot. Can you PM me if you know who or where you got that info? My Dad is an active UAL 777 captain. I just talked to him about this incident this morning @mudeagle |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:37:10 AM EDT
[#7]
I feel the day is rapidly approaching that warbirds will be permanently grounded
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:38:18 AM EDT
[#8]
to the auto mechanic: good eye on the leak, but for most leaking aircraft the concern is when it stops.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:41:04 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. As you can imagine, there are lots of folks who want to fly at the Reading show, and I didn't make the roster to fly.  Something that was on my bucket list  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:45:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Idiot fight pilot wannabes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Idiot fight pilot wannabes. I hope you aren't speaking about the pilots of the aircraft. Because it would show that you yourself know jack and shit about shit. 
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:51:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hope you aren't speaking about the pilots of the aircraft. Because it would show that you yourself know jack and shit about shit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Idiot fight pilot wannabes. I hope you aren't speaking about the pilots of the aircraft. Because it would show that you yourself know jack and shit about shit. He's been shitting in threads this morning with his ignorance. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:51:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Looks to me that P-51 pilot was doing a faux gun run on the B-17, and lost awareness when he turned off.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:55:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's been shitting in threads this morning with his ignorance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Idiot fight pilot wannabes. I hope you aren't speaking about the pilots of the aircraft. Because it would show that you yourself know jack and shit about shit. He's been shitting in threads this morning with his ignorance. I personally know/knew both of those men (and their families) and they are as far from wannabe idiots as one could be. Aviation is a an unforgiving thing, all it takes is one mistake. That happened at OSH, If you know how hectic that place can be then you know even the best of pilots can get bitten. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 10:57:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not your fault. Did you know Len very well? I'm sorry for your loss. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh man. It was Len. Damnit damnit damnit. He was a really cool guy. Super nice. Rode with him last year. I just realized I had a typo earlier when I asked if it was Ken R. I didn't notice autocorrect changed it to Ken. Ah, F--k. I'm sorry, I wish I'd known that before I replied. Not your fault. Did you know Len very well? I'm sorry for your loss. Sorry. I have met Len a couple times. Nice guy, great to talk with. I am pretty sure I have met MudEagle a couple times. 
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:02:45 AM EDT
[#16]
 Wings over Dallas 2022 B17 Texas Raiders Full Demo & Crash Tribute HD Sad video, |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:05:36 AM EDT
[#17]
Jesus, that was rough. Not just for the loss of life, but also for the loss of two iconic warbirds.
Reminded me of that scene from Memphis Belle.  Memphis Belle | "Mother and Country" Clip | Warner Bros. Entertainment |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:12:20 AM EDT
[#18]
tag for later
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:12:27 AM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:22:05 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did they make a determination? I hadn't heard.  NTSB Docket and Final Report Dale 'Snort' Snodgrass This was published a few months ago. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:26:57 AM EDT
[#21]
They are now reporting six killed https://www.foxnews.com/us/dallas-air-show-collision-kills-6-authorities-working-id-victims-officials-say
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:28:02 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are now reporting six killed https://www.foxnews.com/us/dallas-air-show-collision-kills-6-authorities-working-id-victims-officials-say 5 on the 17. Pilot in the P-63. 
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:35:56 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:36:24 AM EDT
[#24]
Just rode on that plane Sept 19th. Seeing this article now. Very sad in so many ways
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:43:36 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My brother and I rode on FiFi this year and let me tell you it was a dream come true. FiFi was the very first plane I ever flew on Something that was on my bucket list https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/425704/IMG_20220930_200058_jpg-2598489.JPG Not to side track the thread too much, but I intend on flying on her next year, and the B-25 that visits Reading. I went out to the museum yesterday to check out their B-25 due to the newly discovered information about my grandfather's B-25 exploits from WW2. I was motivated to join the museum and I intend on volunteering to help them out and I may even get to fly in their B-25 if/when it goes to shows in the future.   https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/I-found-information-about-my-Grandfather-s-WW2-service-/5-2600126/ I think it's important to keep these warbirds flying, and I hope accidents like this one don't bring that to an end. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:50:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not rehearse per se, but you brief and are assigned a block of altitude. There is a hard deck, then each group is assigned an altitude. We always zeroed our altimeters to avoid math mistakes. Then you briefed flight order. Each pilot usually wrote all this down. Pilots kept the order until cleared to land. The most I flew always 5 aircraft per altitude assignment. I’ve thrown away all my briefing notes. Would be interesting to reread. I would also write the info on my window in Wax pencil just like the FACs did. Radio freqs, altimeter assignments, emergency info. There is also training and formation qualification prior to flying in airshows. I know the T28 group holds a three day training session before Oshkosh, The training includes extensive classroom, flying, and ground walkthroughs on the ramp. Most people today would be amazed at what used to be seen in the early warbird shows. Pearl harbor re-enactments used to include a B17 doing a one wheel touch and go the length of the runway. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:58:13 AM EDT
[#27]
On the fateful pass the fighters were making their pass at a lower altitude than they had been. The flight history data resolution isn't that great. The site only retains it in 10-second intervals. But it looks kind of like the P-63 may have been lagging behind the rest of the flight. And that would've thrown off the timing for it to be ahead of the B-17 at the same altitude. P-63 may have been focused on the flight lead while attempting to catch up and take lead of the bombers, unaware of the B-17s location. I don't know how many other planes were out there because I haven't seen any full airshow vids yet, but the B-17 was the only or one of few without a transponder on mode-S. It only briefly shows up as a TIS-B track (~280e88).
    
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Posted: 11/13/2022 11:58:47 AM EDT
[#28]
     
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:08:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ya we've all seen that stuff over the years, it's alot different seeing it in HD in practically real time. My dad said they would pass around a bottle before mounting up, I can see why. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Holy shit It reminds me of combat footage of bombers being taken out and falling to the earth in pieces RIP to those involved Ya we've all seen that stuff over the years, it's alot different seeing it in HD in practically real time. My dad said they would pass around a bottle before mounting up, I can see why. Terrified young men in the air trying to kill terrified young men on the ground who are just as busily trying to kill the terrified men in the air. That had to have been a very crazy time to be alive. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:08:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Thats alot of kinetic transfer. Seems like the whole 63 deflected upwards off the 17’s lower fuselage and main wing spar/s? 63’s port wing did most of the b17’s upper fuselage damage through the radio area to just behind the cockpit seats. (Prop starting the cutting)
The 63’s turn carried it through the impact on left side of b17 to starboard side of b17’s fuselage and wing. The 63 has a behind the cockpit engine right? Did it pass through the main fuselage at ball turret area or push forward and upwards for the most part? Theres a major assembly joint of rear fuselage tail section to the wing root (rear) where it appeared to let go. I try to analyze, for what reason idk |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:09:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it's important to keep these warbirds flying, and I hope accidents like this one don't bring that to an end. accidents won't bring them flying to an end. if they are airworthy and pass their inspections, they can be flown. group/formation flying might be regulated out of existence, but the planes will continue to fly. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:10:49 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is also training and formation qualification prior to flying in airshows. I know the T28 group holds a three day training session before Oshkosh, The training includes extensive classroom, flying, and ground walkthroughs on the ramp. Most people today would be amazed at what used to be seen in the early warbird shows. Pearl harbor re-enactments used to include a B17 doing a one wheel touch and go the length of the runway. I saw that show around 1980 in Indiana! Crazy Tora Tora Tora style opening, culminating with Fifi reenacting an atomic bombing with a mushroom cloud pyrotechnic effect. (Do they still do that part?) Just off the top of my head, can think of 2 other CAF a/c I saw that day that have been lost to accidents since then, the B-26 Marauder and the Spanish Ju-52. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:10:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Flying is one of the more least forgiving activities one can engage in in terms of not paying attention or missing cues, especially at pattern altitudes near airports where other airplanes are arriving and departing. An Airshow is not that different, except you have a clear frequency and and an air boss running everything that is acting like ATC for the entire airport. I'm very sorry to hear this. True. Although still behind cave diving. Cave diving in on a whole other level than pretty much anything. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:14:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your comment was like a teacher in the summer. No class. No, he was a grown up who took emotion out of the situation and called it correctly. I see FAR too many grown ups who have little control over their emotions and wonder why they have so many issues in life. I’m not saying this to be a jerk. If you understand what I’m saying and apply it your life will improve exponentially. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:22:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, he was a grown up who took emotion out of the situation and called it correctly. I see FAR too many grown ups who have little control over their emotions and wonder why they have so many issues in life. I’m not saying this to be a jerk. If you understand what I’m saying and apply it your life will improve exponentially. 100% correct. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:38:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to side track the thread too much, but I intend on flying on her next year, and the B-25 that visits Reading. I went out to the museum yesterday to check out their B-25 due to the newly discovered information about my grandfather's B-25 exploits from WW2. I was motivated to join the museum and I intend on volunteering to help them out and I may even get to fly in their B-25 if/when it goes to shows in the future. https://scontent.fwbw1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/315518051_10228638699893592_2562243612312276579_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=neJyyNuUn-oAX-_tdff&_nc_ht=scontent.fwbw1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCwTbvZIu3p4jFmnrBUmGCiLQCy67f8Uvd2JFvrkNODvg&oe=6376235C https://scontent.fwbw1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/315530763_10228638699693587_4717117012109015752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=NdfEQGnGAwIAX9a6E6O&_nc_ht=scontent.fwbw1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAAiJ6u9I9LnTH6Trd0PIKnTRAMw5W6E0lUqwbAXudkSg&oe=63752740 https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/I-found-information-about-my-Grandfather-s-WW2-service-/5-2600126/ I think it's important to keep these warbirds flying, and I hope accidents like this one don't bring that to an end. Flying in FiFi is amazing, it's such a cool plane I should look into volunteering. But I live about 2 hours from the airport/museum
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:41:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just rode in Sentimental Journey a few months ago. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32274/20220513_141949_jpg-2597657.JPG I have right-seat time in that plane (from 20 years ago). |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:57:24 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:02:36 PM EDT
[#39]
I grew up just a few miles from Dallas Executive, what was then called Red Bird airport. A lifelong friend lived about a mile away; we saw light aircraft on approach, perhaps a few hundred feet in altitude, regularly. It really saddens me to read about this news. Prayers to all involved.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:07:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have right-seat time in that plane (from 20 years ago). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I just rode in Sentimental Journey a few months ago. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32274/20220513_141949_jpg-2597657.JPG I have right-seat time in that plane (from 20 years ago). I have turned a few dzeus fasteners in her. She's a beautiful aircraft. Last time I was on the tarmac with her a ww2 vet that crewed a B17 showed up with a hardcover folder with the instructions to the Norden bombsite. He asked the crew.. Do you have one of these? When the crew responded in the negative. He gave it to them. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:23:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, he was a grown up who took emotion out of the situation and called it correctly. I see FAR too many grown ups who have little control over their emotions and wonder why they have so many issues in life. I’m not saying this to be a jerk. If you understand what I’m saying and apply it your life will improve exponentially. My life is just fine there Buckaroo. How ‘bout you just worry about 1 seat and the ass that goes in it? Probably plenty there to keep ya busy. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:27:16 PM EDT
[#42]
The Allied Pilots Association identified former members Terry Barker (left) and Len Root (right), who are both part of the B-17 crew, among the deceased
  Responding to the crash, the Allied Pilots Association tweeted: 'We are saddened to report that former APA members CA Terry Barker and CA Len Root were among the crew members lost on B-17 Flying Fortress during the Wings Over Dallas airshow today. Our hearts go out to their families, friends, and colleagues past and present.' Both men were members of the B-17 crew, operating and maintaining the historic Texas Raiders aircraft, one of only five B-17s cleared for flying. Root, of Roanoke, Texas, was a married man with three adult daughters. Barker, of Keller, Texas, was also married. Hank Coates, president and CEO of the Commemorative Air Force, which hosted the air show, would not comment on the casualties, but told reporters on Saturday afternoon that the B-17 involved 'normally has a crew of four to five,' while the P-63 is a 'single-piloted fighter type aircraft.' During the news conference, Coates refused to lay any blame for the accident, but noted that the aircrafts were not at fault. 'This is not about the aircraft. It's just not,' Coates said. 'I can tell you the aircraft are great aircraft, they're safe. They're very well-maintained. The pilots are very well-trained. So it's difficult for me to talk about it, because I know all these people, these are family, and they're good friends.' More |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:31:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Allied Pilots Association identified former members Terry Barker (left) and Len Root (right), who are both part of the B-17 crew, among the deceased https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/11/13/04/64488873-11420933-image-a-37_1668314068313.jpghttps://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/11/13/04/64488865-11420933-image-m-36_1668314062118.jpg Responding to the crash, the Allied Pilots Association tweeted: 'We are saddened to report that former APA members CA Terry Barker and CA Len Root were among the crew members lost on B-17 Flying Fortress during the Wings Over Dallas airshow today. Our hearts go out to their families, friends, and colleagues past and present.' Both men were members of the B-17 crew, operating and maintaining the historic Texas Raiders aircraft, one of only five B-17s cleared for flying. Root, of Roanoke, Texas, was a married man with three adult daughters. Barker, of Keller, Texas, was also married. Hank Coates, president and CEO of the Commemorative Air Force, which hosted the air show, would not comment on the casualties, but told reporters on Saturday afternoon that the B-17 involved 'normally has a crew of four to five,' while the P-63 is a 'single-piloted fighter type aircraft.' During the news conference, Coates refused to lay any blame for the accident, but noted that the aircrafts were not at fault. 'This is not about the aircraft. It's just not,' Coates said. 'I can tell you the aircraft are great aircraft, they're safe. They're very well-maintained. The pilots are very well-trained. So it's difficult for me to talk about it, because I know all these people, these are family, and they're good friends.' More RIP to all taken Condolences to any and all affected by this tragic mishap. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:49:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Is there any chance that this was intentional?
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:49:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks to me that P-51 pilot was doing a faux gun run on the B-17, and lost awareness when he turned off. The "I haven't read the thread yet, but I want to state my analysis" award goes to.... |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:51:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: accidents won't bring them flying to an end. if they are airworthy and pass their inspections, they can be flown. group/formation flying might be regulated out of existence, but the planes will continue to fly. Most certainly they will...but not because the FAA shuts it down. There are only two underwriters in the US that will insure warbirds. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:52:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there any chance that this was intentional? Highly unlikely. Loss of situational awareness. Someone was where they weren't supposed to be. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:53:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A still from the video. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/32274/Screenshot_2022-11-13_at_07-35-06_Wings_-2598537.JPG Dang. Definitely Craig Hutain in the P-63. Sad sad sad.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:54:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It does like he lost some altitude, but as I mentioned in a previous post it didn't look as if he had much altitude to lose to have a conflict compared the fighter that was in front of him. Neither seemed very far above the B-17. It could all be a matter of perspective from the camera location though. Reports today are saying (again, rumor...) that the airboss cleared the fighters down into the bomber altitude block. This is usually done when the bombers are not occupying that altitude along the showline to allow the fighters to get in closer to the crowd temporarily. If that is the case, the P-63 pilot did not expect the B-17 to be where it was, either vertically or laterally. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:55:07 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there any chance that this was intentional? |
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