I am a baptized Catholic who still very much believes in God and tries every day to follow in his words about being a good person and having faith but I have not gone into a church since the death of my sisters mother in law and that was to help comfort them.

I know others may not agree with me but my beliefs in the man upstairs are as follows. Human beings are granted the capacity for both good and evil by the creator at birth. What he wants of us is to believe in him and go forward with this life trying to simply walk the path . Will we fall down? (Commit sinful acts) Yes. But we learn from them and try to do better.

Using the lords name in vain is one I still struggle daily and apologize all the time.

When it comes to the church I have come to see it as not a house of God but one of deceit.  Some of the worst Devils I've seen were clothed in white robes and nice suits holding a Bible in one hand or standing behind a golden podium.

Hypocrisy when it comes to man's interpretation of God I feel has caused so much pain and suffering to others that I ask myself constantly.  Where does his word end and ours begin?

Again I've never stopped believing in God and the core parts and believe me I've had some testing moments but I've always looked at the church as something else entirely.  Especially when I got older.

You don't have to go to church to be a good Christian. I was raised in the Catholic church. Went to Catholic school. Was an alter boy, CYO the whole nine yards. The only time I go to church now is for weddings and funerals. Part of what made me stop going was the people that go to church under the guise of being a "good" Christian when in fact they are not.

I know it’s frustrating to be in church, but it’s a pretty clear command from Scripture to not give up meeting with each other (Hebrews 10:25). What that meeting looks like may differ for different people. I would say that any gathering in which you are reading Scripture, praying, taking communion, and strengthening one another is fulfilling the function of a church without a physical building. The earliest “churches” gathered in believers’ homes, and home churches are a modern trend that has resurfaced again.

The bottom line is that you need to decide where your fit is, but don’t give up meeting with other believers entirely.

I was raised Catholic but after really studying the Bible, I came to realize that Catholocism is not what we were told to believe in either the OT or NT.

In what way?

Good person maybe, but good Christian no, you must be a part of the mystical body of Christ, His Church.

It’s not easy.

But what if you find that the modern church is antithetical to the body of Christ? Serious Q.

The Church is forever and necessary, as Christ founded it and commands as such.  It’s arrogant to think we don’t need it and know better than the previous 1960 years of Christians.  Without the Church we wouldn’t have the Bible, we wouldn’t have the faith.  

As far as the devils within, where else would Satan pitch his tent than across the hall from the holy.  Jim bobs baptist on the frontage road?  No.

I can say 100 percent, coming into the Church, any ex Catholic that I’ve met did not understand even the basics of the faith, it’s no wonder they left. Usually cradle Catholics with poor catechesis.

There have always been devils in the Church and there always will be, someone else’s sin is not a reason to abandon Christs Church. It’s a reason to stay and fight.  “The Church” isn’t the pope, it isn’t the clergy, it isn’t the curia, it isn’t the priests, it’s the people, the mystical body of Christ that make up His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The faithful are the Church.

Modernism is the greatest heresy and the greatest threat to the Church, but it will not prevail unless the faithful give up and leave.   But, the gates of hell shall not prevail.  Let their pride out them, it’ll be easier to cut them out.

"Taking the lords name in vain" is not about saying, "oh my God!" It's about publicly claiming to be following him or being one of his people when you really have no intention of doing so. Like a woman who takes her husband's name but has no intention of being faithful.

Just like being married, or being a parent, being part of a church is HARD. It requires having relationships with people, and maintaining those relationships even when they do and say things you don't agree with. And you'll have to think about and do things for other people, and not just yourself.

The easy road is to choose not to get married, or not to become a parent, or not to join a church. Then your whole life can be about YOU.  In my experience, people who choose not to have kids or not go get married always look down on those who DO make those choices - especially those who do it and are happy.

The easy road is very seldom the correct one.

This is where Im at as well.
The Lord is my savior!
I cant stand to watch the hypocrisy and pastor worship in my local church. We home church now.

Then mentality that one MUST be in a church building on Sundays to be considered a Christian is misconstruing the Bible as well as the main reason churches are failing now.

Going to church is being obedient and observing the sabbath, one of the commandments.  Yes churches are flawed just like people but do you give up on people?
Happy LCMS here.

I hear what you are saying.  I'm friends with a wide variety of people who are Christian believers who do not attend church for one reason or another and I consider them to be exceptional people.

That said, everytime I attend an open enrollment gun course, or engage in discussion with another gun owner, it is probably an 90%+ chance that "just because we have 'that' in common, doesn't make us people of the same belief system."  That's identical to my experience with church-goers vs non-church-goers.

No hate intended, just an observation.  Happy to be proven wrong someday.

Everybody is a hypocrite, on some level. I'll guarantee that at least some of the people who have said they refuse to go to church because of hypocrisy will still go to a gym, even though there are people there who are cheating on their diets, or not really working out very hard, or are only doing bicep curls in the mirror and skipping leg day.

And they'll still play on the softball league, even though there are people who only come to drink and can't play well at all.

And they'll still join the local sportsmans club and use the range, even though it's run by a bunch of fudds and is frequented by a few people who "support the 2a BUT...."

God intended us to worship and live in a community of fellow Christians, not isolated in our homes away from others. Just like trying to get sober, or get stronger, or learn karate, it's *possible* to do it without involving other people by just reading the book at home, but the vast majority of people who try it will fail. There are a very few who succeed, but these are exceptions, not the rule.

Preaching to the Choir here fellas . I too have issues with the church .
Yes Im a cradle Catholic but have done the adult program with my son and got alot out of that however there are still issues I have .

I go to Church to worship my Savior Jesus Christ not the church it’s self . They remind me of the Pharisees . Making up rules and such .

Keep the faith is something I tell myself . God Bless and Happy Easter .

Um, yes it is. The rest of what you said is good too. But choosing to not blaspheme is the first and most obvious thing.

You can worship in your living room.
You can worship in a field.

Why is it so important to go to a place to honor and give thanks just because there's a cross on the roof?

Also we have a church here in town that is a leftist church. They routinely put campaign signs and democrat propaganda on their billboard.

If anyone can defend the pedophiles in the catholic church then to me they've basically dishonored God.

I went from a catholic church to a Baptist one where it was all hell fire and brimstone and come to find out the pastor was screwing someone on his staff while he was married.

Also there are aspects of the Bible it's hard for me differ from the Koran. (Some of its more violent parts)

Also how do we determine what is the true word? Look at how many branches of Christianity there are alone.  Each one different from the next except for one or two things.

I thank God every day for what he gives me but there are many aspects of organized faith I am very unsettled by.

My Mom insisted I go to Catholic church until I got confirmed, then it would be my choice. Upon confirmation, it was sayonara for me. I believe in God, and like to think I have a great relationship with Him, but can't bring myself to follow the doctrines of the Catholic church.

The Church is a group of believers, not the building or an institution.  

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing from the Word of God.  

The Pharisees were very religious.

Actually quite the opposite. I see families who truly love each other and it makes me miss my upbringing.

I'm not saying I'll never have kids or find a partner but in my case it's very difficult.  I can't share a lot but I'll say this. GOD and faith pulled me out of the darkness so many times and I can say in more ways than one. He saved me.

This is just my opinion as someone familiar with the Catholic Church and studies the Bible

Lets see:
Jesus tells us we have only 1 Father, who is in Heaven, yet the Church requires us to call their Priests "Father".
We are supposed to pray to Mother Mary, Saints and Archangels which is blasphemy as the Bible tells us to pray to GOD alone.
They put up statues and paintings of the same however we are told not to make or worship ANY graven images.
The Bible explicitly tells us not to use long winded, repetitive prayers (you ever been to a mass, if so, enough said).

Thats just off the top of my head but all of significant violations of Biblical instructions.

OP, I have struggled with something similar for many years.

The last church I was involved with eventually gave me a bad feeling.  I stopped attending, but continued to pray about my issues.  Shortly after, the pastor was arrested for child porn.

The church before that, I was involved with the Sunday school activities with my wife, and helped to operate the sound system for the adult services.  Had a bad vibe at some point and stopped attending.  Shortly after, it was found that the pastor was involved with financial fraud with the church's funds.

None of this has made me lose my faith in God.  It has made my faith in religious leaders very shaky.

Staying on the right path in this world is a hard, uphill battle.  But I still maintain it is worth it in the end, despite the issues I have encountered.

You came here for validation.  You want to hear (read) that what you are doing is perfectly acceptable and fine.

In that case, do what you want, because you’ll fabricate whatever reason to do it anyways.  Just cut out the pretense.

If I claim I am an electrician without any training or any mentors other than reading, would you hire me?   Same example if I was a car mechanic, no training no mentors.  Would you hire me?  What if I claim to be a physician, would you let me care for your child?

Only in this case, it’s your relationship with Jesus you are dealing with.  If I don’t understand a passage in the Bible, I ask someone.  100% of the time it’s someone from church.  Specifically the people in church help me grow as a Christian.  Who do you lean on to grow?

Edit.  I’ve heard your argument before.  In reality it’s not hypocrisy the individual is against.  The person is almost always lazy and doesnt want to make the time or take the effort to go to church.  There is also a fair amount of self loathing and social phobia mixed in.  Make sure this isnt your case before you think its the church’s issue.

This isn't pointed at anybody. I've noticed many people know they are sinners, but don't want to go to Church because there are sinners there and they don't want to be associated with them.

I’ll get to some other responses when I have more time but OP, pray and think really hard about what voice and/or feeling it is that is driving you from the Church and the trajectory that will lead you on. Is it for God? Or is it for you.

I am exactly the same way. With the addition that I grew up in Rome (IT), BY the Vatican (1 km from it), nuns and priests (Christian Brothers) teachers.

The amount of abuse I got by both made me run away hundreds of miles from the church - but how can one not believe in God.

Man someone really talks tough without knowing a single thing about the person posting.  Keyboard commandos strike again. You sound like every jack ass I've dealt with when it comes to my political beliefs etc. Rather than try to talk to me like a human being...Something we used to do in this world instead you attack me.

I don't need you or anyone else's validation.  This was a discussion and you made it personal.

First off! Lazy my ass?! I've searched for a church to belong to. All I've found is disappointment . God has never disappointed me because he laid the path for us .  How do you sit in a place of glass, steel and stone in front of a person who is telling you how you should live meanwhile that very same person is molesting little children or fucking a fellow parishioners partner or stealing from the collection plate?

I've been searching for a house to belong to that won't lie to me!  That won't pretend to be something they are not. The lords house is supposed to be welcome to jew and gentile alike correct? Saint and sinner correct? That is the word of God.  He will welcome even the most wayward of his flock in if you only accept him.

I've been to churches from an early age in two different states...Never found one to call a home. And since you know me sooooo well than maybe you know the preacher at the Baptist church who accused my mother and father of starving me because I was 85 pounds...Not knowing that like my father we were tall and skinny. My father didn't fill out till his mid to late 30s! Yet that pastor the person who is supposed to be the vessel for teaching the word of God saw fit to accuse my parents of child abuse. I'm trying my absolute best not to COC myself off this board but you are really making it difficult.

My faith in God is unwavering because I've seen what he's done for me and others. I will be a believer till the day I pass from this rock. My fathers faith in the lord and his devotion to his family saved a man who served In Vietnam, watched his friends die and came home to a cheating wife. He risked Prison to take care of his daughters and in the end was allowed to finish his tour in West Germany. His faith kept him from killing himself due to PTSD. Our families faith in the lord is as strong as ever.

But I've also seen first hand that even the sinner can portray themselves as a Saint inside the lords house only to keep sinning.

Validation? I need only one persons validation and it aint you.  That person I talk to once a day or more.  I will always be searching for a church to come back to. It's still a long road but I haven't given up yet and I won't.

So before you accuse people....Maybe listen to them instead of chastising them because they don't believe 100% as you do.

I whole-heartedly disagree.  I believe there are expectations of us in this life.

I agree also.

I'm doing my best to walk that path. And I'll say this till I'm blue in the face. I walked away from the church but not God. I still pray he will help me find the house I should be. For now I continue to take from what I've been taught from reading the bible.

It's a tough path to walk at times. But I'm walking it.

Thank you.

What you've encountered is what I have and still encounter. God is very much in my life and I am better for it.  

The human condition and staying on the right path is the constant battle.

It’s obvious I struck an open nerve ending.   You can call me wrong, ain’t gonna change the truth.

I think the earlier post has it correct.  You're looking for affirmation.  There are numerous examples of the expectation that we are to gather.  Additionally, depending on your religion, to also follow those with authority granted by God.

Yes you did because while your experiences with the church may have been perfect unfortunately I've not had that path.

You chose to judge based off your own personal experiences. I will always discuss and even more so take advice but I won't be judged

Martlet. Gathering is not my issue . I've had some very bad experiences with the church as a symbol that caused me to walk away from church. I've been a catholic.  I've tried Baptist.  I've tried 3 or 4 others and in all honesty once or twice in the last 10 years I thought I may have broken the cycle and found the church I belong and something happened.

If you have advice about how to move forward I will take it gratefully.  How do you find where you belong without having to turn yourself numb to your own feelings?

Great questions.

First, after a similar path as you, I looked inward to see where I might be the problem.  While on that path I altered my perspective slightly and had some personal revelation.  First, once I aligned myself with God, I found the Church that I know to be Christ's church.  Second, I recognized that "some" problems with "some" churches are a result in that church's distance from Christ.  That doesn't mean the church isn't generally good.  That doesn't mean the people who go to that church aren't good people.   It just means for the most part the church is astray and not as aligned with God as it could be.  

Because I believe my church to be Christ's church, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is where He wants me to be, I change my perspective on the people that attend.  I believe is something is astray enough in this church to affect His word or my salvation, He will correct it.  I believe every person who attends this church is broken.  The vast majority are trying to follow His path, but we are all sinners.  Because of that I give them grace.  I will not let another's fallen state keep me from keeping my covenants.  I love them, I minister to them, I avoid them if I have to.   However, I fulfill my roles and positions as best as I can.

Several quick observations

1. The Catholic Church has the Mass with the Body and Blood of Jesus. You won't find that at a Baptist Church.
2. If you study and follow the theology and NOT opinions about Catholic practice, you will find a firmer foundation for your faith in the Catholic Church.
3. The Catholic Church is very flawed due to the corruption that seems to be prevalent in the priesthood and hierarchy of the Church. They are not the Catholic Church. Faithful priests are also in the Catholic Church, and there are bishops and archbishops who are resisting Francis. I knew this when I became Catholic 2 years ago.
4. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

You will do as you want, and from what I read about your statement of beliefs, you are drawn to a more "flexible" faith:



God does not call us to be good people. We are not "granted the capacity for both good and evil by the creator at birth".

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

There is no "capacity for both good and evil" in that statement. Paul sees us as we are. What God does is to call us to repent and let the Holy Spirit make us into who He wants us to be. If you try to be good, you will fail, and even more, it is arrogance to think that you can be good enough to meet the requirements of God outside of the above.

Where does the Church come in? I have said this many times before in other posts, the theology of the Catholic Church is a firm foundation for faith, and partaking in the Body and Blood of Jesus is us coming to God and admitting our need to be made whole by Him. We come to be healed and He will heal.

I don't condemn you for your choice, because you will make the choice for your life as is your right. What I am saying is that you do not understand what you profess to believe and you are allowing the flaws you see in others to push you away. If you focused more on your flaws and relied on the grace and forgiveness of God for yourself, you just might see that others struggle in the same way you do, and you could encourage them to draw closer to God rather than condemning them outright in your mind.

OP, just to be clear, believing in God doesn’t do any good.

Even the demons believed and they were terrified.
The demons knew without a doubt that Jesus was God’s son and the savior of the world but they were still doomed.

Jesus made it clear that only saving faith in Him was the key to eternal life.

That faith will result in good works, enjoying fellowship with other believers, hearing messages from God’s word, worship, and reading it for yourself.

Don’t fall for the lie that believing in God gets you anything, or all paths lead to Heaven.

Jesus said that the road that leads to eternal life was narrow, difficult, and that only a few people would take it.

“The gate into the kingdom of heaven is as narrow as pride, and as wide as humility.”  Fr David Carter

You have to have a man made institution to commune and eventually be with your creator.
Absolutely necessary.

I agree with your sentiment, but the Church isn't man made, it's God made.

One Father who is in Heaven, one master, one God, one Almighty.  He doesn't mean you can't use the title "father" for men.  Our "dad's", our priests, spiritual fathers, etc. none of which are the Almighty Father.  Jesus and several Apostles refer to Abraham as Father, in I John 2:13-14, St. John refers to the leaders of the church in Ephesus to whom he is writing as “fathers” twice. And he gives them the title “father.” "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger."  There are many examples of this, paternal fathers, spiritual fathers, living fathers, heavenly fathers, these aren't confused with worshiping the Almighty Father.  

"Pray to" does not equal "worship", this is a new misunderstanding of the meaning of prayer and the word, pray, itself.  It is not blasphemy to pray to angels and saints, they are living members of the body of Christ, they are the Church Triumphant.  Just as well, we can ask prayers of each other, I can pray to the Lord our God for you, just as you can for me.  Why then, could I not pray to Saint Michael to ask his prayer to God for me?  Why not Mary?  Why not Saint Peter or Saint Paul?

We were not to make any graven images as God had yet to reveal Himself to us in the physical world.  Of which He did do later on, in the form of a Dove, in the man of Jesus Christ.  God commanded the making of statues of the Cherubim for the Ark, not to mention the Ark itself which was Holy, adored, and glorified.  God commanded Moses to make the Bronze Serpent on a Pole to which people were healed simply by glorifying it.  There are many more examples of this.  There weren't to be graven images because we did not know who God was in imagery and the inclination of man to fall into the pit of pagan worship is all too real, the Jews could have wound up worshipping the statue of a pigeon as God because He had not revealed Himself as a physical being.  Again, don't confuse worship with adoration or glorification, or even holiness.  Christ Himself glorified His mother, the Queen of Heaven, we are called to honor her all the same.  We are a physical and spiritual beings, God allows us to use all of our senses to glorify and increase or faith in Him.  They are calling us to Him as we now know of Who we worship in our Earthly form.

We are not to use empty, long winded, vain prayers.  We are not to waste the breath of our soul on empty and useless prayers.  To call the Mass that, is frankly insulting to nearly 2000 years of Christianity and to God Himself, the prayers of the Mass are for God, they aren't useless, long winded, or vain.  The Mass is older than the writing of the New Testament, instituted by Christ Himself at the Last Supper as a re-presentation of His sacrifice at Calvary, promulgated by the Apostles and their successors, and perfected by The Holy Spirit throughout the ages by the Saints (we can get into the post conciliar VII Mass in another thread).  Yes, I go to Mass every Sunday at least and I just returned from Mass this morning as well.  I pray one day you can come to understand the Mass, the faith of our "fathers", and find sanctuary in Christ's Church once again.

         You definently can do a form of worship anywhere you are at, but God wants you to go to church to do a special worship that only they can offer. Partake of the Passover Lamb by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Chirst. This is the most important reason to go to church, our body beaing a "temple" has a lot deeper meaning when you see it housing the literal body and blood of our God and savior Jesus Christ thru the Eucharist. Making an offer at the alter has always been the biggest form of worship to God that he wants, and that's what happens at every Mass or Devine Liturgy.
        Gathering as a church is great as well as needed. There is strength and growth in numbers of like minded people. Sadly people are all sinners, even priests, bishops, cardinals and popes. Looking at it like that has helped me to see that Christ's Church is still alive on earth. Yes people in authority in the church have commited some horrendous disgusting sins that they will have to answer to one day, but I need to focus on my own sins and my own salvation. I'm not a pedo and havnt murdered or raped and I try to be my best self that I can, but I still have a log in my eye just like the next guy and am in need of saving.

I used to feel like Saigaman but have recently changed…thanks be to God.  I was led to a church that studies the whole Bible on a 13-14 cycle.  I was so happy at my first service that I shed a tear.  I really feel at home surrounded by fellow Christians.  Nobody there is perfect but we know are all sinners and are there to learn and seek Gods guidance.

My church now is the body of believers.  If three or more of us meet in a shed, that would be our church.  It doesn’t have to be fancy or ornate, as long as we come together as a group to worship the Lord.  This is the same path that Jesus took.  He held church in boats, open fields, tents, and anywhere men would listen.

"I love god but I hate being around others who love God and (I don't like) worshipping him along with them" doesn't fly.

"I love doing gun stuff and discussing gun stuff but I hate being around other people who feel that way too."

This is an indication some self reflection needs to go on.

It's not about the building.

You cannot worship corporately - together with other beleivers - without ... you know ... being around other believers for that purpose. Which we have institutions to do.

Also, if you're not going to a place that worships God as he is in the bible, well yeah, you're not going to find the worship of God there.

Rome preaches a different gospel (jesus makes you saveable, instead of jesus saves) and has a different ultimate authority (we say what the bible says, we don't let what it says judge us - the current pope is making this unavoidably obvious).

Christian Orthodox also preaches what Rome preaches. Isn't it funny how the 2 churches that can trace their roots all the way to Jesus teach basically the same thing? Protestant reformation brought a different gospel 1500 years later.

I'm not going to get into your gospel/Bible/authority argument in this thread but the pope can err just as the rest of us can, there is no claim to the pope being without sin. He is just a man, same as you and I.  Thankfully the pope isn't the Church, but a mere servant of her.

OP, I believe that there is no ordinary means of salvation outside the Church. We are called to labor, grow, and build a kingdom. It’s tempting to think worship is possible from a bass boat but I do not believe that to be the case. Creation is beautiful and sometimes I’m awestruck by the whispers of glory to come that I can see now but that isn’t worship.

If we are alone we are easy to pick off like a sheep that has strayed from the flock. I know I can’t make it on my own like I can supported by the men of the Church. At our men’s book study we challenge and sharpen each other. At work days we labor together in brotherhood for the Church. At worship we encourage each other just by being there and we sing together as men leading our families. At men’s night we chant Psalms and help each other grow to try to emulate Christ in every facet of our lives. As husbands, fathers, and brothers.

I was in your camp for years while my wife was very, very ill with an autoimmune disease (that we have a handle on now, praise God) but I was wrong. I thought I was just fine on my own but now I lament the years lost.

Do not give up. Find a home. For every man that leaves the Church evil gains.

https://crechurches.org/

I was raised Catholic but started to have issues
with the direction it was going.

Pope Francis..
Pedophiles transferred to other locations.
Not getting more out of the sermon.
Dogma that couldn't be explained that it made sense

A friend told me about a YouTube channel
called Pastors Perspective from Calvary Chapel.

The message is explained clearly.
Six months later we found a church close by and joined.


OP....
Whatever you do.
As another stated. We are to gather and hear the word.
Maybe you just need a different church to hear it from.

Above all, read your Bible every day so you will not be lead a stray
.