I thought this would be intuitive, but then I've been using red dots, a.k.a. reflex viewfinders, on my astronomical telescopes for about 35 years.

It doesn't have anything to do with finding the dot. With a red dot, you should not be staring at the dot itself, but at the target. When the dot comes across the point you're staring at, pull the trigger.

If you stare at the dot, you're going to be sucked into your sight, and your transitions are going to be much slower. Your eyes should lead the dot, not the other way around.

Completely fair, I was being very vague. I still don’t understand the whole not using irons thing that a few think is comical. I have had my rds go down on more than one occurrence. Square range 15 yards? Who gives a crap you likely don’t need any sighting whatsoever depending on the accuracy needed of you shot. Trying to make a 50 yard shot with point shooting (or whatever the term du jour is)? ”Not going to happen.

I still have irons. But you can get away without them if you have a dot. A few different methods if your dot fails. It works too. I've done it in a week long dot class.

Or is it

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n8plvVapBKA

Its a video from a big competition shooter turned trainer that is telling people they're not being target focused... you're the only bringing irons into this.

Also, plenty of people have had irons fail on them. How much time have you spent fretting over back up irons compared to time actually spent practicing?

Mine doesn't have a front sight..


Our guns should get together.

Lol

Simple analogous example is sit down at the computer.   Now continually stare at the mouse pointer while moving it across the screen, double points for watching it go across multiple monitors.  This little exercise will show focusing on the dot (mouse pointer) is painful and slow.

Look where you want the round to go, the dot will be there, just like driving a computer mouse.

That’s freaking awesome. Well beyond my pistol skills!

Did it throw it away in a fit of rage one night?

I have heard stories and seen pictures on the interwebs of irons failing but never seen it in person. So I have bias. I would l say I spend no time thinking about backup irons when shooting or going about my normal day. It was just an observation I had to the video.

I liked the video. I agree with the video. I have played the tape game both covering the rmr and on the target. Focusing on the dot will absolutely tunnel vision you on the dot hence being slower but also drastically cutting situational awareness for additional targets. Not focusing on the dot is more difficult that one would think. The only time I actively will focus on it is when taking long shots. Shout out to that 38 super dude.

I personally don’t train nearly as much as I should/want to. I wish I was a professional shooter or independently wealthy so I could spend my working hours training. But alas work and family are a thing.

Red dots are terrible. Feel free to send me yours for proper disposal at no cost.

If your dot fails you have a few options.

1. point shoot.
2. use the dot window frame
3. put a dot on the rear of your slide and use that as an aiming point.

We are pretty amazing creatures. Especially our vision. That bino vision we have is neat and adapts to all sorts of things.

Focus on your target when shooting.  Not your optic/sighting system.  Sure you are using it to precisely hit the target.  However, if you find yourself "struggling to find the dot" or fighting your sights.  You're focused on them and not your target.

Focusing on your target is also a conscious part of shooting.  So don't feel bad if it doesn't feel second nature.

At least that's what I got out of it.

That's something I noticed a few months ago when trying to fix my focus. If I put all my concentration on the target, the dot would get there faster and smoother than if I was partially focused on the target.

Thanks for posting these. So much crap on YouTube it is hard to find good stuff.

Very informative video as I contemplate transitioning to a RDO.

My experience has been that the worse (or less experienced) a shooter is, the more they are enamored by what a red dot offers.

Because suddenly there is this easy button that addresses all these issues they were having but didn't know how to fix - sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control. A red dot basically takes two of those shooting fundamentals (sight alignment, sight picture) out of the equation. Most iron sight shooters on the square range will actually move their eye to the target, or a transitional point beyond the front sight but before the target, because they want to immediately know what the result of their trigger press was. So they miss the feedback from the true sight picture that would show their sight dipping low and left (right handed shooter) as they pull the trigger and before the bullet exits the muzzle. It is more difficult to miss the movement of the dot (unless you are closing your eyes, which plenty of new shooters do), and so they end up with better targets, especially at distances they used to struggle with, such as 10+ yards. And nearly all shooters can and do see improved scores at distance (10 + yards) by moving to an RDS on a gun.

I've now worked with a bunch of folks who have moved from iron to RDS on duty guns, and almost no one has improved on draw speed, near target acquisition, target transition, or a host of other skills relevant to shooting at closer distances. There are always a bunch of keyboard commandos who claim they have gotten better/faster, but I've got hundreds of hours on a PACT timer that indicates that it works the other way, and most people perform more poorly after the transition. Most of this has to do with proprioception and a drastically constrained viewing angle for dot alignment, compared to traditional iron sight alignment. You're basically going from probably 5+ degrees of permissible viewing angle to around 1 degree. I do think that reticles as opposed to dots, like with the new Trijicons, are likely to fix this for most shooters, as you gain back a bunch of degrees in viewing angle which thereby speeds up acquisition.

Anyway, to Ben's point, lots of people are improperly training with dots, cheered on by the Internet forums, and aren't addressing their shortcomings.

You may have hundreds of hours... but USPSA has thousands of classifiers and standards that show a dot helps even at close distances.

That's perfect.

Tagged for learning.

Yeah I do this. Dammit I suck

I started “serious” training in the fall of ‘22 occluded and haven’t removed the cover since.  Works for me.

Stoeger really knows his shit.

No they aren’t.

Exactly.

The dot will show up precisely where you’re looking.

Suck less.
That's Ben's point. You can't fix what you don't even know you're doing.

This is genius, awesome explanation and example.

Exactly this.

That’s one of the reasons why turning up the brightness to where the dot is blooming is such a poor practice.

No.

Correct your draw and presentation and your dot will be there every time.

This is such a good explanation I’m stealing it for the next class I’m running.

About to head out for the class. woot!

Why do you think “viewing angle” makes any difference on an optic which is meant to be shot with both eyes open?

Bigger windows are easier to run at speed, but that has to do with keeping the dot captured under recoil.

I’ll address it:

Outside of providing redundancy irons are completely immaterial when using a dot. They’re not part of any process, like at all.

If you’re happy wallowing in mediocrity, an optic is a poor choice for you.

I guess all the competitive shooters without irons on their gun are doing it wrong.

When shooting, you must always take into account light, and ocular-oriented, kinetic, emotive, responses.

No they don’t.

As someone who tried dots and failed to adopt 5 years ago and now trying a dot again, that was a good watch.

Can't wait to hear how it went. I'll bet your going to have a blast, uh, I mean a good time.

Ben’s class is absolutely superb and will probably open some eyes as to how you can change up your process.

My bet is that the folks you work with who get worse times with a dot don't dry fire with it. This is my experience with dudes who use a duty gun.

Also I am a bit confused by the viewing angle thing. Both eyes open, target focused the dot just goes where you look and you can see everything. . Trying to use the dot like a scope is a disaster which is what most new dot shooters try to do even when told not to. Thats why the occluded dot is such a good training tool.  

People talking about how much of an asshole he is made me do a little research. Yes, he has a humor that might put off some, but I find those people overly sensitive about stupid stuff. If something needs to be corrected, correct it and move on. No need to brood like an emo kid. I like the fact that he's like "here's what I've experienced. I've learned some stuff by making mistakes. Help me help you address those issues. Oh, and for free if you can't physically take a class or buy my book. Oh, and fuck off all you who abuse your privileges. I'll rag you until you can't wipe your ass without my voice in your head telling you to cut that shit out."

That's why he's one of my favorites.

Pretty much. I just think his humor doesn’t translate over to the internet well unless you know him.

Did I make it before all the Dugan Ashleys of red dots?

Timely video on answering questions
Edit: beat like a ragged mule.

Great video OP. My older eyes don't work as well with irons so I've started using dots. I'm guilty of focusing on the dot.

Took a combat pistol training course about ten years ago using a G19 w/ RMR.  At the beginning of the class, one of the instructors said "by the end of the day, we'll have your rounds going wherever you look."

After a day of shooting four hundred rounds, in many different scenarios, it became instinctive, whether one in the class was using red dots or irons, and thoughtful aiming was not needed.  The human brain is capable of doing all the ballistic calculations, given enough repetitive practice.  

There in lies the key -- rounds down range, with a disciplined, building, regime in mind.  Going out on a Saturday and shooting a mag or two at a paper target at ten yards is a pretty much a waste of time for improving skill.

Training classes are incredibly beneficial, and for me, coupled with competition shooting every week in 3-gun and pistol steel matches, makes one a good pistolier.  

In the words of The Great One, "Aiming is useless."