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You've posted this complete non-sense before, and refused to justify it before.

I'm one of the few A320 pilots who've purposely flown the aircraft in Alternate Law. It flies great.

Modern aircraft are immensely safe, and when flown and maintained by well trained pilots and maintenance personnel, even safer. No where near "inherently unsafe."

I can really only think of one modern (built since 1975) transport category aircraft I'd say was "challenging to fly" from a data standpoint, and that was the MD-11.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXMO0bhPhCw

In October 2018, a Boeing 737 Max passenger jet crashed shortly after takeoff off the coast of Indonesia. Five months later, following an eerily similar flight pattern, another 737 Max 8 went down in Ethiopia. Everyone on board the flights died.

"Boeing's Fatal Flaw," a FRONTLINE documentary in collaboration with The New York Times, tells the inside story of what led up to the crashes — revealing how intense market pressure and failed oversight contributed to tragic deaths and a catastrophic crisis for one of the world’s most iconic industrial names.

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A lack of excellence and professionalism in one area is a tell for a lack of professionalism and excellence in other areas.

That it's allowed to go on for so long is also a tell for the quality of the management team.

There's quite a few articles out there about how Boeing changed from being a company managed by former engineers to being something completely different after their merger, and which was further exacerbated by upper management moving to Chicago.

Articles describe the engineers complaining that management used to understand them and listen to them, but no longer did - because the new management didn't have the depth of engineering background that the old management did.

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(September 17 2021)  Federal prosecutors 'will criminally charge a former Boeing test pilot' they suspect of misleading FAA regulators about 737 MAX safety issues that contributed to two deadly crashes and grounded the planes for two years


Federal prosecutors are preparing to criminally charge a former Boeing pilot who is suspected of misleading regulators about safety issues during the approval process for the troubled 737 MAX, according to a new report.

Mark Forkner, Boeing's 737 MAX chief technical pilot during the aircraft's development, could face charges in the next few weeks, people familiar with the matter told the Wall Street Journal.

Prosecutors have been probing whether Forkner intentionally lied to the Federal Aviation Administration about the nature of new flight control software on the jet, which suffered two deadly crashes within months, killing 346 people.

Forkner's attorney David Gerger did not immediately respond to an inquiry from DailyMail.com early on Friday.

Gerger has previously said that his client would never intentionally hide a safety issue.


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/17/06/48030165-10000429-image-m-4_1631856298923.jpg

Former Boeing pilot Mark Forkner could face criminal charges in a matter of weeks



'Mark flew the MAX. His Air Force buddies flew the MAX. He would never put himself, his friends or any passenger in an unsafe plane,' Gerger told the Journal in 2019.

It wasn't immediately clear what criminal charges might be brought against Forkner, but Boeing previously admitted in a settlement that two unnamed employees conspired to defraud the FAA about MAX training issues to benefit themselves and the company.

Forkner had said he might have unintentionally misled regulators, in a series of internal messages from 2016 that became public in October.

The messages appeared to have been the first publicly known observations that the crucial MCAS anti-stall system behaved erratically during testing before the aircraft entered service.

Malfunctions with the MCAS system, complicated by inadequate training, were implicated in the fatal crashes of Lion Air 610 in 2018 and Ethiopian Airlines 302 just months later.



The comments by Forkner in internal messages were among those pinpointed by U.S. lawmakers in hearings in Washington as evidence that Boeing knew about problems with flight control software.

Forkner persuaded regulators to approve excluding details of the new MCAS flight-control system from the 737 MAX's pilot manuals, according to a U.S. House investigation.

Boeing benefited from the exclusion, because it reduced the mandatory new training for pilots who had flown older models of the 737, making the upgraded jet more attractive to potential airline customers.

The MCAS, which kicks in automatically in some flight conditions, is intended to push the nose of the plane down to compensate for a tendency of MAX planes to pitch up due to larger engines.

Investigators believe that when it malfunctioned on the fatal flights, the pilots did not realize that the MCAS was pushing the noses of the planes down, and thus didn't take steps to disable it.


Continued

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Worked the MAX program for 3 years. The culture was pretty normal BCA, which is very different than defense programs, but it wasn't what I'd call bad. There were cost concerns across all the airplane development programs, which is normal. There was a need to increase seats and use less fuel, thereby extending range. Really sad to see how it turned out, no question about that.

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Why is it necessary to design new planes? There are existing designs to cover all different endurance and passenger requirements. Why dont they just keep existing designs?

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Planes didn't get harder to build or fly.

The world is getting dumber.

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The 737's crashed because pilots thought they could push a button and the computer would fly the plane for them. And when it didn't, they didn't know what to do - and they should have. It's why I fly US based carriers wherever I can - Europe second. You couldn't pay me to get on an African airline.

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@disco_jon75

I'd never heard of Dr. Deming before, so I was intrigued by your comment and found his 14 Points:

https://deming.org/explore/fourteen-points/

Some of them make sense, like building in quality, but some of them seem counter-intuitive, like "eliminate objectives."

Which of Deming's points do you think applies here, and why?

Quoted:


You've posted this complete non-sense before, and refused to justify it before.

I'm one of the few A320 pilots who've purposely flown the aircraft in Alternate Law. It flies great.

Modern aircraft are immensely safe, and when flown and maintained by well trained pilots and maintenance personnel, even safer. No where near "inherently unsafe."

I can really only think of one modern (built since 1975) transport category aircraft I'd say was "challenging to fly" from a data standpoint, and that was the MD-11.

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Killed the 757 because the industry didn't seem to know what to do with it and then tried to make a 737 a 757 because the industry wanted something like it.  

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You can't make up for outsourcing code to idiots for $9/hr with "oversight" either, when the "oversight" allows it.

Not to mention the other idiots that designed and approved how the controls were setup, how they interacted with the software, and designed the pilot training and procedures.

Boeing could have saved a lot of time, money, and terror by just lining all those passengers up and shooting them.

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The 737's crashed because pilots thought they could push a button and the computer would fly the plane for them. And when it didn't, they didn't know what to do - and they should have. It's why I fly US based carriers wherever I can - Europe second. You couldn't pay me to get on an African airline.

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Killed the 757 because the industry didn't seem to know what to do with it and then tried to make a 737 a 757 because the industry wanted something like it.  

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MCAS is a shit show and a piss poor design but at the end of the day, you are exactly right.


IIRC American, United and Southwest all had the same issues Lion and Ethiopian had, yet no lawn darts. But you also don't see the mainline carriers crashing airplanes all types of ways like those two carriers are fantastic at doing.

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no. they killed the 757 because no one wanted it.
Its not like Boeing was turning away orders.

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The crashes had nothing to do with those stupid, click bait hit pieces about $9 programmers.  I despise Boeing, but at least attempt to know the truth.

Boeing has multiple layers of problems, from top to bottom in the offices and the shops, and I doubt there will be any improvement without an overhaul that looks like a clean slate.

Picture a company that operates like a mix of Alice in Wonderland, 1984, and the East German Surveillance Society, lubricated by every slice of the current fad of "social justice".
.

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So... "too big to fail succeed"? I've found that corporations are exactly like governments. The bigger the organization, the bigger the cross section of waste, incompetence, and ultimately collapse, or at least continued success only by predatory practices and use of force. When you can't offer your customer a better product, offer them the ONLY product.

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I retired and cut as many ties as possible because it was ruining my health.  I'm far better off.
Sometimes I tease my wife about taking a job as a job shopper.  That prospect turns my stomach, so I'll be in dire need if that occurs.
.

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@Vne

You said it much better than I was going to!

This guy is a treasure! All we need now is melting canopies.

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"failed oversight"

Not all problems are solved by adding more "oversight."

You can't make up for lack of talent in your organization by adding more "oversight."

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Safer than pine wood covered in glue impregnated fabric? You don't say...

It doesn't have to be either/or though. We can have airplanes where you can deviate by 30 knots and not drop out of the sky like a brick. It is possible. But it might cost a bit more fuel, and maybe a few less passengers.

Might even be cheaper in the long run, not replacing sensors....

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Boeing is a shithole.

But those dumbfuck pilots are responsible for pile driving both of those planes.

Push button piloting is going to end up killing a lot more people in the future, welcome to Idiocracy.

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The crashes had nothing to do with those stupid, click bait hit pieces about $9 programmers.  I despise Boeing, but at least attempt to know the truth.

Boeing has multiple layers of problems, from top to bottom in the offices and the shops, and I doubt there will be any improvement without an overhaul that looks like a clean slate.

Picture a company that operates like a mix of Alice in Wonderland, 1984, and the East German Surveillance Society, lubricated by every slice of the current fad of "social justice".
.

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This!  This eis exactly why the rediculous stretch of the 737 happened.
The 757 with LEAP would have been cool.

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IIRC American, United and Southwest all had the same issues Lion and Ethiopian had, yet no lawn darts. But you also don't see the mainline carriers crashing airplanes all types of ways like those two carriers are fantastic at doing.

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"failed oversight"

Not all problems are solved by adding more "oversight."

You can't make up for lack of talent in your organization by adding more "oversight."