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Link Posted: 9/21/2021 10:05:58 AM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:


Poor GE-style management can create an environment where talent cannot flourish.

Boeing is no longer the premier US aerospace company, it's SpaceX.
View Quote


The sad part is that Boeing can't make a design effectively in the KC-46 and 737MAX they've been making since the Reagan Administration.

That's just a sign you've hollowed out your work force so now no one is left to actually paddle; everyone is just yelling "stroke" at each other.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 10:49:20 AM EDT
[#2]
I worked on the MAX program (different company who made content for the plane)

One issue was lack of oversight by the FAA.  
They were claiming to be overworked and started this "partnership" program where "industry experts" inside the company were trained to perform the work normally handled by the FAA.
This lead to conflicts of interest where an employee of the company is placed in a position where they SHOULD have spoken up, but didn't. (can't remember the 3 letter acronym for this new position right now)

Finally, I have to LOL at all the misinformation in this thread.  Apparently some think the Piper Cub was the pinnacle of aviation and piloting.  Who needs those new fangled aluminum skinned monsters with all their dials and gauges.  
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 10:52:03 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:


The sad part is that Boeing can't make a design effectively in the KC-46 and 737MAX they've been making since the Reagan Administration.

That's just a sign you've hollowed out your work force so now no one is left to actually paddle; everyone is just yelling "stroke" at each other.
View Quote


But at least the people yelling at each other have more proper ratios of genitals and melanin.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:00:37 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


This, all day long.

Airlines: replace pilot leadership with MBAs

Aircraft manufacturers: replace engineer leadership with MBAs

Car manufacturers: replace car guy leadership with MBAs

Hospitals: replace doctor leadership with MBAs

Etc etc

When you separate the love for a business and the desire to excel at what you love, and replace it with 'business theory' people that view the company / industry as a machine tbat dispenses money into their bank accounts ...

You will destroy that business or industry.
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The crashes had nothing to do with those stupid, click bait hit pieces about $9 programmers.  I despise Boeing, but at least attempt to know the truth.

Boeing has multiple layers of problems, from top to bottom in the offices and the shops, and I doubt there will be any improvement without an overhaul that looks like a clean slate.

Picture a company that operates like a mix of Alice in Wonderland, 1984, and the East German Surveillance Society, lubricated by every slice of the current fad of "social justice".
.





This, all day long.

Airlines: replace pilot leadership with MBAs

Aircraft manufacturers: replace engineer leadership with MBAs

Car manufacturers: replace car guy leadership with MBAs

Hospitals: replace doctor leadership with MBAs

Etc etc

When you separate the love for a business and the desire to excel at what you love, and replace it with 'business theory' people that view the company / industry as a machine tbat dispenses money into their bank accounts ...

You will destroy that business or industry.


You are preaching the choir and I can add a few more industries to that list...from personal experience.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:12:54 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
I worked on the MAX program (different company who made content for the plane)

One issue was lack of oversight by the FAA.  
They were claiming to be overworked and started this "partnership" program where "industry experts" inside the company were trained to perform the work normally handled by the FAA.
This lead to conflicts of interest where an employee of the company is placed in a position where they SHOULD have spoken up, but didn't. (can't remember the 3 letter acronym for this new position right now)

Finally, I have to LOL at all the misinformation in this thread.  Apparently some think the Piper Cub was the pinnacle of aviation and piloting.  Who needs those new fangled aluminum skinned monsters with all their dials and gauges.  
View Quote


Thoughts on the data in this article?  My Masters in Project Mgmt actually picked the 737MAX as our failed project case study and I wanted to make sure we aren't grabbing onto anti-Boeing propaganda.  Personally, I flew KC-135s and have some 777 sim time while working on my ATP and love Boeing aircraft.  However... I also recognize that profits drive business.  If you can't defeat the heavily-subsidized Airbus, you can't compete.

https://perell.com/essay/boeing-737-max/
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:20:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Some analysis of the problem.

BOLTR: AoA Sensor | Boeing 737 Engineering Failure
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:30:23 AM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


It may not have been harder to fly but the 737 max flight characteristics were different than the 737. Boeing made no mention of MCAS in the manual. They made no mention of the fact that the max had a tendency to pitch nose up at all speeds. Boeing was negligent in producing Max's with only one angle of attack sensor.

Boeing was responsible for quite a bit of their own oversight on the Max and that was the fault of the FAA. Boeing fucked up on the Max. It was all about revenue.
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Every MAX, and 737NG (and probably every 737 classic, but I've never flown a classic, so not sure) was delivered with two AOA sensors.  The AOA comparator/disagree light and the AOA gauge on the PFD/HUD was an option.

Boeing thought that since the MCAS was just a function of the speed trim system, and there was no pilot control of the system, they could omit it from the manuals.  They ASSumed that crews would treat a malfunction of the MCAS the same as a runaway stabilizer.  They made a wrong assumption.  No, why the crews didn't do the right thing is a whole different discussion.

Boeing owns the fact they delivered an airplane where the failure of a single sensor could hand the crew a serious problem,  but both of these crews didn't react as they should have, IMHO.  
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:43:23 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


I'm saying safer than a Convair 880, that turned fuel into noise like it was the last ICE on the planet and was about 2 generations of technology past a DC-3.

If you're routinely deviating airspeeds by 10 knots, to say nothing of 30, maybe flying as a job isn't for you.

Sure, you can crash a 737 or A320 or 777 or a A350. Its possible. But, its more than "sensors." Now, in this specific instance, there was plenty that could have done, by Boeing, the FAA and the pilots in the seats. Boeing is the OEM, it was their design, and via regulatory capture and having the deepest pockets, its going to get the vast majority of blame.


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Only an old fart knows what an 880 was!
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:49:07 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
I haven't had a chance to watch this yet, maybe tonight. IIRC, MCAS was only added because they couldn't meet some FAA stick force requirement in a corner case that would likely never be experienced by the operator. Is there any discussion regarding the thought that maybe it would have been smarter to change the regulation and never add MCAS in the first place?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that IS the case, but I'm certainly open to it.
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My understanding is that the flight handling was going to be different because of the high and forward mounted engines (from stick force, pitch up tendencies, etc.).

The changed flight handling was going to require (expensive) crew retraining.  Therefore, Boeing stuck in the MCAS to try to artificially force (or kludge) the handling to remain "similar".    Thus they effectively ended up hiding it from the crews, hampering their problem-solving during an emergency.

I doubt that they could have avoided MCAS by just changing a regulation and leaving it out.   Due to physics, it was inescapable that the handling was going to be MUCH different, and it would have been very noticeable, caused problems and required additional training.

Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:52:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Boeing has always been like GM.  Macdonald Douglas was the better company but was never as popular with the pentagon as Boeing.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 11:54:34 AM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:


Thoughts on the data in this article?  My Masters in Project Mgmt actually picked the 737MAX as our failed project case study and I wanted to make sure we aren't grabbing onto anti-Boeing propaganda.  Personally, I flew KC-135s and have some 777 sim time while working on my ATP and love Boeing aircraft.  However... I also recognize that profits drive business.  If you can't defeat the heavily-subsidized Airbus, you can't compete.

https://perell.com/essay/boeing-737-max/
View Quote


Sorry, I can't speak to the culture at Boeing since I worked for a different company at that time.
The video in the OP touches on the use (overuse?) delegation from the FAA to the companies.  I know it left us scratching our heads at the time.  "We investigated our self and found no issue" sort of thing.  My personal belief is that this culture was a contributor (not sole cause) into what happened.

As a case study, I also can understand how people convinced themselves to treat MCAS as some minor thing added to the system. (hindsight suggests they were wrong, but I understand)

As a thought exercise, understand the following:
MCAS is not the autopilot, its a pilot assist function.  This is an important distinction when it comes to design assurance levels and redundancy.  
When MCAS is active the pilot is flying the plane.  It was assumed that since an MCAS failure would behave no different than say a stuck trim switch to the system and the pilots are flying the plane, that the pilot could/would use the same trim runaway procedure regardless of the source of the error.  In other words, its not suppose to cause a catastrophic failure.  This article does a pretty good job of explaining things from the technical/certification level. MCAS failure is an option  

Using this logic, it would be easy to convince yourself that a single sensor source was "sufficient" if there was no greybeard or oversight authority asking "but what if?"
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:00:08 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:

It's MA'AM!
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How about blaming idiotic EPA policies that make modern commercial airplanes inherently unstable in flight?

They are forced to be designed for "low emission and gas mileage" instead of safety and stability in flight.


What specific EPA policies are those?

Emissions are an engine driven metric, and fuel efficiency is mostly a business driven one.

Modern aircraft are far more safe and stable than first generation ones. That's a demonstrated fact.


Safer than pine wood covered in glue impregnated fabric? You don't say...

It doesn't have to be either/or though. We can have airplanes where you can deviate by 30 knots and not drop out of the sky like a brick. It is possible. But it might cost a bit more fuel, and maybe a few less passengers.

Might even be cheaper in the long run, not replacing sensors....

I love when you post. Easily the greatest entertainment of the thread.
Everything you say is so over-the-top retarded, I couldn't invent such quality material for trolling purposes if I tried.
Keep up the good work, sir, and never doubt yourself! You know what's up and it's your duty to educate everyone here!

Sensors are bad!! Efficiency is dangerous!!

It's MA'AM!

Oh wow. Color me surprised. Normally I'd only think of a man being that cocksure of themselves yet so wrong.

To quote the greatest author, "It Ain’t What You Don’t Know That Gets You Into Trouble. It’s What You Know for Sure That Just Ain’t So."
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:01:58 PM EDT
[#13]
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To hang new engines that squeeze a two percent reduction in fuel consumption.  Sometimes other improvements of aerodynamic performance are included, or lower cost manufacturing.

That last improvement comes from eliminating built up sheet metal structures by using large machines, cutting touch labor costs.  The next step is Full Scale Determinant Assembly, cutting labor another huge increment.

Aerodynamic improvements are tough.  Small drag reductions come more and more with shapes that are costly to fabricate.
.
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Why is it necessary to design new planes? There are existing designs to cover all different endurance and passenger requirements. Why dont they just keep existing designs?
To hang new engines that squeeze a two percent reduction in fuel consumption.  Sometimes other improvements of aerodynamic performance are included, or lower cost manufacturing.

That last improvement comes from eliminating built up sheet metal structures by using large machines, cutting touch labor costs.  The next step is Full Scale Determinant Assembly, cutting labor another huge increment.

Aerodynamic improvements are tough.  Small drag reductions come more and more with shapes that are costly to fabricate.
.


The vertical winglets on the end of wings limit air 'rolling off' the end of the wing surface.
That tiny change improved efficiency by a significant amount.
A little more lift at speed for a very small increase in drag.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:07:18 PM EDT
[#14]
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You can't make up for outsourcing code to idiots for $9/hr with "oversight" either, when the "oversight" allows it.

Not to mention the other idiots that designed and approved how the controls were setup, how they interacted with the software, and designed the pilot training and procedures.

Boeing could have saved a lot of time, money, and terror by just lining all those passengers up and shooting them.
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THIS
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:30:27 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm not going into detail, but the cultural problems at Renton were almost beyond belief.

To get a good feel for what was going on you really need to read Senior Managers Edward Pierson's testimony to Congress. Boeing turned around and went to huge lengths to decouple his comments from the specific crash cause, but believe me, the man pretty much nailed the systemic problem.

“I remain gravely concerned that the dysfunctional production conditions may have contributed to the tragic 737 Max crashes and that the flying public will remain at risk unless this unstable production environment is rigorously investigated and closely monitored by regulators on an ongoing basis,” he said."

I'd only been there about a year when I got sent to a "leadership development opportunity" as a first level manager in that factory. The first day a senior VP walked in, looked around at us and said, (para), "there's not much sense in me bs'ing you...as you know by now you're in what's pretty much considered the worst job in the entire company." We all sat there kind of stunned.

My original goal was to be the best manager Boeing ever hired off the street. At the three year point (just prior to the MAX coming online) my goal had been reduced to making it from one day to the next. It turns out when you incentive dishonesty, you get an entire factory of managers willing to lie and cheat to make numbers. It got worse when the tool control problem started to spiral out of control, and at the point I knew we (the corporate we) were lying to the FAA I decided to leave. It was a hard decision, but staying and fighting would have accomplished nothing.

Read Pierson's testimony. That factory was a fucking dumpster fire, and everyone at the senior levels knew it.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:38:44 PM EDT
[#16]
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Speaking of things no one wants to pay for, no one is paying for the skill set necessary to pilot jet aircraft. That comes from experience.
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Largely, the U.S. taxpayer is paying for it by recruiting passionate young men and women into their various armed flying clubs, and then doing everything in the world to motivate them to leave after accumulating the training and experience to do so.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:43:19 PM EDT
[#17]
I am involved in the industry. I have been saying for over ten years that Boeing needed to build a new version of the 57 to replace the 37. Now they are going to do it with the 97.

Boeing has been a sick company since Alan Mulally left the company. The MAX debacle would have never happened under his reins. Boeing's culture changed greatly after Mulally left and for the worse.

After the two MAX crashes I knew they were due to internal incompetence or pressure being put on their employees by senior management to certify the airplane. They had a lot going on at the time with new versions of the 87 and 777X under development. This, IMO, also contributed to the accident chain that led to the two crashes. They first noticed that the MAX was not a stable platform in the wind tunnel and in the flight simulator. The tendency for the aircraft to pitch up would have also been detected by Boeing's flight test organization during flight test prior to certification. There was no excuse for Boeing not to provide training to their customers regarding MCAS.

Muilenburg and the rest of Boeing's senior management team should be indicted because they were rolling the pressure downhill into Boeing's engineering and flight test organizations to get the MAX certified. Instead, the scapegoat is Forkner who was used as a useful idiot by Boeing's senior management to get the airplane certified.

If Boeing really cared about safety, they would have either have built an entire new platform, or would have spent the money and given the MAX FBW flight controls.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:43:27 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:



Only an old fart knows what an 880 was!
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I'm saying safer than a Convair 880, that turned fuel into noise like it was the last ICE on the planet and was about 2 generations of technology past a DC-3.

If you're routinely deviating airspeeds by 10 knots, to say nothing of 30, maybe flying as a job isn't for you.

Sure, you can crash a 737 or A320 or 777 or a A350. Its possible. But, its more than "sensors." Now, in this specific instance, there was plenty that could have done, by Boeing, the FAA and the pilots in the seats. Boeing is the OEM, it was their design, and via regulatory capture and having the deepest pockets, its going to get the vast majority of blame.





Only an old fart knows what an 880 was!


If Lynerd Skynerd had just taken a bus to the next gig ....
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 12:55:32 PM EDT
[#19]
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...

Several years after the buyout were required to break the disciplined engineering culture in the structural integrity groups in St. Louis.  That was complete about 2015 or 2016.

...
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@AeroE,

What do you mean by "required to break the disciplined engineering culture in the structural integrity groups" ?
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:04:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Really sad story.

It doesn't seem like it would have taken much to add a second AOA sensor, but it also doesn't make a lot of sense that they enabled MCAS at the slower flight regimes. How much worse were the handling characteristics, that they thought they had to add 4x the elevator authority normally induced by MCAS?
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:13:38 PM EDT
[#21]
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1) you cannot QA your way into success.
2) the user will always fuck things up.

Kharn
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That's what hallway usability testing is for.

However, most organizations with a PMO are culturally incompatible with hallway usability testing, due to siloing, and micro-deadlines, and a lack of trust.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:16:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Boeing created a cluster F when they killed the 757 and then jury rigged the 737 into the 737 max abomination to replace the capabilities of the 757.    

They are idiots.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:32:07 PM EDT
[#23]
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What he means is that what you need are leaders who are invested in the product, and then let them lead.  When management above the leaders define objectives, they distort the direction of those who know best what to do.
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@disco_jon75

I'd never heard of Dr. Deming before, so I was intrigued by your comment and found his 14 Points:

https://deming.org/explore/fourteen-points/

Some of them make sense, like building in quality, but some of them seem counter-intuitive, like "eliminate objectives."

Which of Deming's points do you think applies here, and why?

What he means is that what you need are leaders who are invested in the product, and then let them lead.  When management above the leaders define objectives, they distort the direction of those who know best what to do.


I was struck by how much overlap there is between Deming's material and Agile.

Both are also dependent on a high-trust, anti-cya culture.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:42:43 PM EDT
[#24]
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The Iron Law of Bureaucracy applies to private entities too, especially "too big to fail" entities.

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Every organization hiring a Chief Diversity Officer or creating a diversity initiative is either already in, or entering, the Bloat phase.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:44:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:46:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:54:48 PM EDT
[#27]
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I'm resisting that hard. I've been going on a decade now as the hardware design lead. We've resisted adding headcount to firmware because upper management directives say we need to add that headcount in India. We'll take doing it ourselves instead, but it has reached a crisis point.  
Now my good job on the hardware side has earned me managing it all now.  So now I need to figure it how we get out of this mess, and I think we do end up getting do the needful help.

I'm not looking forward to that part.  


I had never considered it in a Deming context.  Great point!
Rapid design test can be a good thing to avoid dealing with the bugs at the end... If it is done for that reason, instead of 'accelerating' development.
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No, I get the more serious problems.

But even in the absence of any other problem, farming out code to retards is a deal-breaker.   This has been the bane of my existence for a long time; I absolutely despise the amount of shit that is being ruined by third worlders face-rolling on keyboards.


I'm resisting that hard. I've been going on a decade now as the hardware design lead. We've resisted adding headcount to firmware because upper management directives say we need to add that headcount in India. We'll take doing it ourselves instead, but it has reached a crisis point.  
Now my good job on the hardware side has earned me managing it all now.  So now I need to figure it how we get out of this mess, and I think we do end up getting do the needful help.

I'm not looking forward to that part.  

3. Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis by building quality into the product in the first place.


The opposite of this today in programming is the practice of shitting out bad work as fast as you can and trying to pair it to increased speed and bandwidth in testing, thinking you'll get to the final result faster.

I had never considered it in a Deming context.  Great point!
Rapid design test can be a good thing to avoid dealing with the bugs at the end... If it is done for that reason, instead of 'accelerating' development.


@MatthewDB I've highlighted two items from your comment:

"I'm resisting that hard."

"upper management directives say that we need to add that headcount in India."

It should be obvious to you by now that you're pushing on a string, in disalignment with management, and they're likely to eventually see you as an obstacle to be removed.

You should dust off your resume.

If you stay here, you'll probably end up working a bunch of extra unpaid overtime on technical work, because your day had more and more time spent dealing with bureaucracy. You have a total quality mindset, and management is going to take advantage of your desire to good work by pressuring you and pressuring you and pressuring you and getting lots of free effort out of it.

You'll get burned out, and your technical knowledge will start to fall behind.

Organizations enter the low-quality outsourcing for one of two reaons:

1. Management does not understand the consequences, and only sees the labor costs
2. Management understands the consequences, but is incentivized by upper management or owners to act otherwise

Management in #1 could potentially be persuaded away from their error, but it sounds like you've already tried.

Management in #2, and unpersuaded management in #1, must learn from their own mistakes - they have to try it, see it fail, and be tied to the failure, before they will change, and this can take years.

Years and years in which you will suffer.

Get yourself out of this toxic work environment and leave them to their own mistakes.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:56:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 1:58:32 PM EDT
[#29]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

The 737 is taking all the press right now, but it's not a new issue with modern airplane design.

It's the same ignorant bullshit that is everywhere.

Must computerized and connected to the internet all the things!!!

Why does your car have 87 sensors? Does it NEED 87 sensors?

How did we ever survive in the dark days, before computer chips?

But modern airplanes really are safe... they totally never crash, unless one of 870 sensors goes back.

And when they do crash, it's "pilot error" for not havintg instant recall to follow one of 10,000 different protocols to deal with a possible bad sensor. They'll blame anyone but the engineer who designed the damned thing.
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Modern airliners fly on the edge of falling out of the sky. Literally.

They are inherently unsafe.

No passenger airplane should require 87 sensors to maintain a stable flight profile.


Watt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

The 737 is taking all the press right now, but it's not a new issue with modern airplane design.

It's the same ignorant bullshit that is everywhere.

Must computerized and connected to the internet all the things!!!

Why does your car have 87 sensors? Does it NEED 87 sensors?

How did we ever survive in the dark days, before computer chips?

But modern airplanes really are safe... they totally never crash, unless one of 870 sensors goes back.

And when they do crash, it's "pilot error" for not havintg instant recall to follow one of 10,000 different protocols to deal with a possible bad sensor. They'll blame anyone but the engineer who designed the damned thing.

That was a design fault.

1. The computer should never have silently averaged the two inputs when they were so far opposite each other.

2. It should have alerted the crew to the input discrepancy via control feedback and/or alarm.

3. The left seat's input should have won by default.

Sensors will fail, you must account for them in procedures, but disconnecting the pilots from each other and allowing them to cancel each other's input to the point they fly the plane into the ocean is unacceptable and should have been foreseen.

Kharn

Kharn
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 2:04:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 2:22:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 2:33:02 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
I am involved in the industry. I have been saying for over ten years that Boeing needed to build a new version of the 57 to replace the 37. Now they are going to do it with the 97.

Boeing has been a sick company since Alan Mulally left the company. The MAX debacle would have never happened under his reins. Boeing's culture changed greatly after Mulally left and for the worse.

After the two MAX crashes I knew they were due to internal incompetence or pressure being put on their employees by senior management to certify the airplane. They had a lot going on at the time with new versions of the 87 and 777X under development. This, IMO, also contributed to the accident chain that led to the two crashes. They first noticed that the MAX was not a stable platform in the wind tunnel and in the flight simulator. The tendency for the aircraft to pitch up would have also been detected by Boeing's flight test organization during flight test prior to certification. There was no excuse for Boeing not to provide training to their customers regarding MCAS.

Muilenburg and the rest of Boeing's senior management team should be indicted because they were rolling the pressure downhill into Boeing's engineering and flight test organizations to get the MAX certified. Instead, the scapegoat is Forkner who was used as a useful idiot by Boeing's senior management to get the airplane certified.

If Boeing really cared about safety, they would have either have built an entire new platform, or would have spent the money and given the MAX FBW flight controls.
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McNerny was a GE guy.

GE guys are managerial cancer. Welch is the worst CEO of the last 100 years.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 2:58:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:02:01 PM EDT
[#34]
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This, all day long.

Airlines: replace pilot leadership with MBAs

Aircraft manufacturers: replace engineer leadership with MBAs

Car manufacturers: replace car guy leadership with MBAs

Hospitals: replace doctor leadership with MBAs

Etc etc

When you separate the love for a business and the desire to excel at what you love, and replace it with 'business theory' people that view the company / industry as a machine tbat dispenses money into their bank accounts ...

You will destroy that business or industry.
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Quoted:
The crashes had nothing to do with those stupid, click bait hit pieces about $9 programmers.  I despise Boeing, but at least attempt to know the truth.

Boeing has multiple layers of problems, from top to bottom in the offices and the shops, and I doubt there will be any improvement without an overhaul that looks like a clean slate.

Picture a company that operates like a mix of Alice in Wonderland, 1984, and the East German Surveillance Society, lubricated by every slice of the current fad of "social justice".
.





This, all day long.

Airlines: replace pilot leadership with MBAs

Aircraft manufacturers: replace engineer leadership with MBAs

Car manufacturers: replace car guy leadership with MBAs

Hospitals: replace doctor leadership with MBAs

Etc etc

When you separate the love for a business and the desire to excel at what you love, and replace it with 'business theory' people that view the company / industry as a machine tbat dispenses money into their bank accounts ...

You will destroy that business or industry.



It's not just love for the business, it's looking at people as a number instead of what they bring to the org.  These people assumed that you could hire and fire at will to maximize margins and then wonder why the org has no institutional knowledge, the new kids suck and can't do the job of a 20 year industry guy.  

I spent  2 years in the aerospace world at a supplier to the big boys.  It was insane the lack of respect given to engineers fast and cheap was all that mattered.  So glad I bailed.  

Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:05:22 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
Planes didn't get harder to build or fly.

The world is getting dumber.


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That's a gross oversimplification of the issue with the 737 Max though.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:06:53 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:


McNerny was a GE guy.

GE guys are managerial cancer. Welch is the worst CEO of the last 100 years.
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Indeed.

Legacy Boeing guys also hated Harry Stonecipher after he took the reins after Boeing and McDonnell Douglas merged. They hate(d) the man with a passion.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:08:02 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
Why is it necessary to design new planes? There are existing designs to cover all different endurance and passenger requirements. Why dont they just keep existing designs?
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This design is outfitting larger high-bypass engines that are more fuel efficient. Unfortunately, a series of physical dependencies make these engines too big for the existing landing gear length, which can't really be lengthened... it's complicated.

But yeah, trying to slap some new engines on an existing airframe rather than making an entirely new aircraft.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:10:27 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:


Modern airliners fly on the edge of falling out of the sky. Literally.

They are inherently unsafe.

No passenger airplane should require 87 sensors to maintain a stable flight profile.
View Quote


This is complete bollocks. The planes want to fly. The Max had a special design flaw - that doesn't mean all the other planes do as well.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:20:49 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:....Boeing owns the fact they delivered an airplane where the failure of a single sensor could hand the crew a serious problem,  but both of these crews didn't react as they should have, IMHO.  
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...and the software guys that didn't raise hell for some redundancy.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:24:12 PM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:


...and the software guys that didn't raise hell for some redundancy.
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Quoted:
Quoted:....Boeing owns the fact they delivered an airplane where the failure of a single sensor could hand the crew a serious problem,  but both of these crews didn't react as they should have, IMHO.  


...and the software guys that didn't raise hell for some redundancy.


Why point out a problem when

1) you have no authority to fix it
2) all you're going to get by pointing out a problem is ostracized for making others look bad

This is a stereotypical PMO problem that Scrum fixes by changing who the decision maker is (reshaping the power structure).
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:33:29 PM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:

By eliminating core departments, there is no check and balance on training, experience, methods, uniformity, or technical ability.  What results is technical chaos; new hires are assigned to a program and basically told, "go to work".  The lucky ones get a lead that is capable and gives a damn, and that is getting more rare.  The technical prowess of leads is declining as they come up out of that system and the gray heads leave, and some of those aren't retiring, they're going to other companies.

There is a practice that any manager can manage any group, so it's increasingly likely that a specialist will work for a manager with literally no clue about whether the analysis work is correct, let alone sufficient.  When I left there was one manager assigned to moving people around in that division; his background was design, so he had not the foggiest notion of strength or fatigue work.  Someone else moved staff in each of the other divisions and there was very little cross movement, further isolating the analysts from each other.

The F-18 program and both of the commercial programs I worked have a nasty habit of producing what I labeled "analysis looking analysis".  What that means is that it looks okay thumbing through, but won't stand up to scrutiny of the details, especially idealizations in hand analysis and generally more so in finite element work.  In the case of the F-18, it's the press of time, schedule and keeping the exec's bonuses intact is always the most important factor.

Discipline in my groups meant that understanding how the structure, mechanism, or subsystem functioned, and the analyst had to articulate that information; it's impossible to analyze a structure unless we know how it functions.  It also meant free body diagrams were required.  That stuff is hard work for a young analyst and they generally won't do it unless forced.  Part of that is caused the modern use of finite element analysis as a crutch, a crutch they don't understand except to apply some loads and hope it works out.  Over constraint is common in order get a stable model with no care about whether the interfaces are remotely similar to the airplane, all that matters is that the deflections are small enough that the model doesn't jump off the screen and the fringe plots are pretty.  I always checked NASTRAN models used for analysis for a bail out card, a convenient and unethical method to hide problems in a model.  Sizing with von Mises stresses since most of them don't know the difference but they heard somewhere that is the place to start.  I mistakenly assumed every ME and AE undergrad was receiving finite element theory training until the last couple of years when I started asking.  That means they have no idea what goes on behind the data entry.  Analysis looking analysis, but it was (generally) fast.
.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
...

Several years after the buyout were required to break the disciplined engineering culture in the structural integrity groups in St. Louis.  That was complete about 2015 or 2016.

...


@AeroE,

What do you mean by "required to break the disciplined engineering culture in the structural integrity groups" ?

By eliminating core departments, there is no check and balance on training, experience, methods, uniformity, or technical ability.  What results is technical chaos; new hires are assigned to a program and basically told, "go to work".  The lucky ones get a lead that is capable and gives a damn, and that is getting more rare.  The technical prowess of leads is declining as they come up out of that system and the gray heads leave, and some of those aren't retiring, they're going to other companies.

There is a practice that any manager can manage any group, so it's increasingly likely that a specialist will work for a manager with literally no clue about whether the analysis work is correct, let alone sufficient.  When I left there was one manager assigned to moving people around in that division; his background was design, so he had not the foggiest notion of strength or fatigue work.  Someone else moved staff in each of the other divisions and there was very little cross movement, further isolating the analysts from each other.

The F-18 program and both of the commercial programs I worked have a nasty habit of producing what I labeled "analysis looking analysis".  What that means is that it looks okay thumbing through, but won't stand up to scrutiny of the details, especially idealizations in hand analysis and generally more so in finite element work.  In the case of the F-18, it's the press of time, schedule and keeping the exec's bonuses intact is always the most important factor.

Discipline in my groups meant that understanding how the structure, mechanism, or subsystem functioned, and the analyst had to articulate that information; it's impossible to analyze a structure unless we know how it functions.  It also meant free body diagrams were required.  That stuff is hard work for a young analyst and they generally won't do it unless forced.  Part of that is caused the modern use of finite element analysis as a crutch, a crutch they don't understand except to apply some loads and hope it works out.  Over constraint is common in order get a stable model with no care about whether the interfaces are remotely similar to the airplane, all that matters is that the deflections are small enough that the model doesn't jump off the screen and the fringe plots are pretty.  I always checked NASTRAN models used for analysis for a bail out card, a convenient and unethical method to hide problems in a model.  Sizing with von Mises stresses since most of them don't know the difference but they heard somewhere that is the place to start.  I mistakenly assumed every ME and AE undergrad was receiving finite element theory training until the last couple of years when I started asking.  That means they have no idea what goes on behind the data entry.  Analysis looking analysis, but it was (generally) fast.
.


I'm not an ME or EE or PE, so a lot of those terms went over my head (software engineering background), but the themes did not. Those terms if I read them in a report would sound really good and sound educated and I wouldn't know any better. I definitely would not have caught the cop-outs and shortcuts you described.

That reinforces your point about managers not being interchangeable, and the same for engineers.

That factory model / swirl / shuffle of staff occurs in software engineering too - not all Python developers are equal; not all Java engineers are equal. It takes someone with hands-on engineering experience to spot the differences between a Java engineer with 5 years of experience and a Java engineer with 5 years of experience.

Shortcuts - the most common shortcut taken by software engineers, and also by management, is inadequate or missing automated testing.

"Required to break the disciplined engineering culture" is the phrase that struck me the most.

Management was intentionally trying to break the culture?
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:43:25 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


...and the software guys that didn't raise hell for some redundancy.
View Quote


not the job of the sw guys to provide redundancy. It's the job of the Systems Engineers.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:47:56 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/33324/DSC00105_JPG-2098899.jpg

737-100 the first 737 ever produced at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, WA.
View Quote


I recognize that plane! Used to see it all the time before we had to get rid of it because of stupid agency management.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 3:50:18 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:

Management was intentionally trying to break the culture?
View Quote


Mulally was an airplane guy. After he left, the control of Boeing was left to the bean counters. When a company is run by the bean counters, the culture becomes toxic.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 4:13:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

By eliminating core departments, there is no check and balance on training, experience, methods, uniformity, or technical ability.  What results is technical chaos; new hires are assigned to a program and basically told, "go to work".  The lucky ones get a lead that is capable and gives a damn, and that is getting more rare.  The technical prowess of leads is declining as they come up out of that system and the gray heads leave, and some of those aren't retiring, they're going to other companies.

There is a practice that any manager can manage any group, so it's increasingly likely that a specialist will work for a manager with literally no clue about whether the analysis work is correct, let alone sufficient.  When I left there was one manager assigned to moving people around in that division; his background was design, so he had not the foggiest notion of strength or fatigue work.  Someone else moved staff in each of the other divisions and there was very little cross movement, further isolating the analysts from each other.

The F-18 program and both of the commercial programs I worked have a nasty habit of producing what I labeled "analysis looking analysis".  What that means is that it looks okay thumbing through, but won't stand up to scrutiny of the details, especially idealizations in hand analysis and generally more so in finite element work.  In the case of the F-18, it's the press of time, schedule and keeping the exec's bonuses intact is always the most important factor.

Discipline in my groups meant that understanding how the structure, mechanism, or subsystem functioned, and the analyst had to articulate that information; it's impossible to analyze a structure unless we know how it functions.  It also meant free body diagrams were required.  That stuff is hard work for a young analyst and they generally won't do it unless forced.  Part of that is caused the modern use of finite element analysis as a crutch, a crutch they don't understand except to apply some loads and hope it works out.  Over constraint is common in order get a stable model with no care about whether the interfaces are remotely similar to the airplane, all that matters is that the deflections are small enough that the model doesn't jump off the screen and the fringe plots are pretty.  I always checked NASTRAN models used for analysis for a bail out card, a convenient and unethical method to hide problems in a model.  Sizing with von Mises stresses since most of them don't know the difference but they heard somewhere that is the place to start.  I mistakenly assumed every ME and AE undergrad was receiving finite element theory training until the last couple of years when I started asking.  That means they have no idea what goes on behind the data entry.  Analysis looking analysis, but it was (generally) fast.
.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
...

Several years after the buyout were required to break the disciplined engineering culture in the structural integrity groups in St. Louis.  That was complete about 2015 or 2016.

...


@AeroE,

What do you mean by "required to break the disciplined engineering culture in the structural integrity groups" ?

By eliminating core departments, there is no check and balance on training, experience, methods, uniformity, or technical ability.  What results is technical chaos; new hires are assigned to a program and basically told, "go to work".  The lucky ones get a lead that is capable and gives a damn, and that is getting more rare.  The technical prowess of leads is declining as they come up out of that system and the gray heads leave, and some of those aren't retiring, they're going to other companies.

There is a practice that any manager can manage any group, so it's increasingly likely that a specialist will work for a manager with literally no clue about whether the analysis work is correct, let alone sufficient.  When I left there was one manager assigned to moving people around in that division; his background was design, so he had not the foggiest notion of strength or fatigue work.  Someone else moved staff in each of the other divisions and there was very little cross movement, further isolating the analysts from each other.

The F-18 program and both of the commercial programs I worked have a nasty habit of producing what I labeled "analysis looking analysis".  What that means is that it looks okay thumbing through, but won't stand up to scrutiny of the details, especially idealizations in hand analysis and generally more so in finite element work.  In the case of the F-18, it's the press of time, schedule and keeping the exec's bonuses intact is always the most important factor.

Discipline in my groups meant that understanding how the structure, mechanism, or subsystem functioned, and the analyst had to articulate that information; it's impossible to analyze a structure unless we know how it functions.  It also meant free body diagrams were required.  That stuff is hard work for a young analyst and they generally won't do it unless forced.  Part of that is caused the modern use of finite element analysis as a crutch, a crutch they don't understand except to apply some loads and hope it works out.  Over constraint is common in order get a stable model with no care about whether the interfaces are remotely similar to the airplane, all that matters is that the deflections are small enough that the model doesn't jump off the screen and the fringe plots are pretty.  I always checked NASTRAN models used for analysis for a bail out card, a convenient and unethical method to hide problems in a model.  Sizing with von Mises stresses since most of them don't know the difference but they heard somewhere that is the place to start.  I mistakenly assumed every ME and AE undergrad was receiving finite element theory training until the last couple of years when I started asking.  That means they have no idea what goes on behind the data entry.  Analysis looking analysis, but it was (generally) fast.
.


The concept of a matrix-ed organization was to prevent the loss of skills, best practices, and to improve the tools used by that technical discipline (sharpening the axe). It also helped newbs learn the discipline area without having to charge what essentially would be training time to an actual paying customer. As more and more bean counters started taking over, the paying customer ended up paying more and more of the training bills and getting very project specific training rather than a more well-rounded engineer. Sad, really.

I was asked not too long ago to be an industry reviewer for an aircraft design class at a university. Most of the teams were what you'd expect for undergraduate groups trying to graduate without dying. One of the teams was pretty good but as they went thru their presentation, one of their charts had the zero-lift drag about two orders of magnitude higher than it should be. During the Q&A, I had them go back to the chart and asked them if their drag number was right. Deer in the headlights. I asked them if the decimal place was off a couple. Then it dawned on them that even with the number of times they'd looked at the charts, none of them had caught such a glaring error. I could go on about my summer interns over the years but I won't.

I actually worked with Muilenburg back in the day when he was still a practicing engineer at MacDac. Too bad he forgot to be an engineer when he went into management.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 4:29:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 4:40:18 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:


That's what hallway usability testing is for.

However, most organizations with a PMO are culturally incompatible with hallway usability testing, due to siloing, and micro-deadlines, and a lack of trust.
View Quote


And infosec saying it has to be secure, so no one can even access it without 100 ticket requests offshore only to realize they can't even authorize what you are asking, so more tickets to get authorization to even request something to request something. The best is when it gets around to the person to authorize it, but they no longer are employed there and you have to start over on the ticket.
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 4:50:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Link Posted: 9/21/2021 4:50:28 PM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:

That was a design fault.

1. The computer should never have silently averaged the two inputs when they were so far opposite each other.

2. It should have alerted the crew to the input discrepancy via control feedback and/or alarm.

3. The left seat's input should have won by default.

Sensors will fail, you must account for them in procedures, but disconnecting the pilots from each other and allowing them to cancel each other's input to the point they fly the plane into the ocean is unacceptable and should have been foreseen.

Kharn

Kharn
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


Modern airliners fly on the edge of falling out of the sky. Literally.

They are inherently unsafe.

No passenger airplane should require 87 sensors to maintain a stable flight profile.


Watt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

The 737 is taking all the press right now, but it's not a new issue with modern airplane design.

It's the same ignorant bullshit that is everywhere.

Must computerized and connected to the internet all the things!!!

Why does your car have 87 sensors? Does it NEED 87 sensors?

How did we ever survive in the dark days, before computer chips?

But modern airplanes really are safe... they totally never crash, unless one of 870 sensors goes back.

And when they do crash, it's "pilot error" for not havintg instant recall to follow one of 10,000 different protocols to deal with a possible bad sensor. They'll blame anyone but the engineer who designed the damned thing.

That was a design fault.

1. The computer should never have silently averaged the two inputs when they were so far opposite each other.

2. It should have alerted the crew to the input discrepancy via control feedback and/or alarm.

3. The left seat's input should have won by default.

Sensors will fail, you must account for them in procedures, but disconnecting the pilots from each other and allowing them to cancel each other's input to the point they fly the plane into the ocean is unacceptable and should have been foreseen.

Kharn

Kharn



As a current 320 and former 757/767/777 driver....

1. That's exactly how all airliners work.  What happens in a 767 if one pulls back and the other pushes forward?  The controls separate and one yoke gets some controls, the other yoke gets the other half of the controls.  The bus electronically does what the boeing mechanically does.  But alas, you can see that in the Boeing. That leads me to:

2. It's far from silent. When both sticks are moved from neutral the plane screams "DUAL INPUT" until one is released or the priority button is pushed, locking the other stick out.  If that button is held down for 40sec, the other stick is locked out for the remainder of the flight.

3. That's asinine on many levels. A couple being a) what if the left stick is faulty and b) who says the guy in the left seat is doing the right thing?  Hell, in many 3 man operations, the relief pilot sitting in the left seat while the CA is on break is the least experienced person on the crew.
 

If they had done nothing when the tubes iced up, the a/c would have stayed at it's 2.5deg pitch and the engines would have stayed at ~80% N1.  They barely would have moved save for the turbulence.

Those AF pilots flew a perfectly good airplane into the ocean.

Link Posted: 9/21/2021 6:18:50 PM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted:

I thought design reviews at subcontractors were fun.  Certainly a chance to get away that was worthwhile.

I'll probably never forget one at LM in Orlando for the Countermine Systems project.  The presentation was wired tight, and they had a real chief engineer.  There were not a bunch of hangers on sitting in the back surfing on a laptop as can be found in St. Louis.  If the presenter could not answer a question, generally the chief engineer had an answer, and if not, had one at the end of the next break.

They weren't perfect, I questioned a fringe plot used to "size" a lug in the fuzing for killing a dart that did not explode, and that lug failed during a shot the following week.  But they fixed the problem instead of trying to explain it away as a unicorn.

.
View Quote


Being able to acknowledge there's a problem, and then promptly fix it, is a hallmark of a professional.

Failing to acknowledge a problem, and responding with hand waiving bullshit, is a hallmark of a bureaucrat.

I'd rather work with the inexperienced team who is professional.
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