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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:31:19 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm no marine engineer but have significant experience working with vessel steering systems on the control end. The way it works is vessels of this size typically have two large hydraulic steering pumps that are running at all times. At the steering stand or bridge console pump 1 or 2 can be selected very quickly. The pumps themselves should be powered by either a primary bus or emergency bus. Which bus is feeding the pumps depends on the state of the ship's DGs but it is pretty rare for all of these systems to fail. What I predict probably happened was a failure of one of the transfer breakers shortly after departure as the engineers may have switched from a smaller auxiliary generator (which may be used in port due to smaller demand) to one of the larger primary DGs. Typically two DGs will be running at any given point in time with only one actively providing power to main buses, and all that has to happen from a mechanical failure is for the transfer breaker to switch which DG is handling the load to the DG currently on standby. The failure occurred faster than the emergency DG could be brought up and supply transferred to the emergency bus. Does it happen often? No. But it does happen. It happened at the worst possible time for this ship. A steering stand failure could be a possibility as well, but a failure at the stand is not that common. In any case, the ship is sinking so this information will have to be collected from the VDR capsule. The VDR will log a significant amount of events but unfortunately it will likely not log automation system alarm history (showing what plant failures may have occurred) but will log things such as rudder angle - not all that useful as we know the rudder angle was not so good. Some automation systems have their own separate VDR (not all that commonly used in my experience) or report events real time over the vessel internet connection. We'll have to wait and see. Most of the automation systems out of various smaller Asian countries suck in this regard. Expect that here on out a tug escort will be deemed required for all vessels departing Baltimore until they have cleared the (soon to be new) bridge. I started to type out a reasonable explanation very similar to this as I am also intimately familiar with ship steering and propulsion systems. But then I realized how unamerican it was for me to not instantly jump to the remote hacking conclusion that one of our experts has already put forth. I guess you and I are voting D from now on. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:31:23 AM EDT
[#2]
Thread:
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:32:36 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And it was made in 1972 before there were ships with this kind of tonnage. In 1972 the largest container ship was the LiverPool Bay 2961 TEU. The Dali was 9900 TEU. So over 3 times the cargo capacity and probably 3 times the size and weight. I doubt those concrete bollards produced in 1972 had that size of a ship ( which is a medium size ship today ) in mind during the design and construction. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Usually major bridges have huge circular concrete bollards designed to take the impact of a ship. Did this bridge have them? They look small from a distance but they’re pretty big. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/259519/IMG_4024_jpeg-3169795.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/259519/IMG_4025_jpeg-3169796.JPG That concrete bollard would be roughly equlivent to using a IIIA vest to stop a cannon ball.. YES it got in the way, yes it slowed it down, but the weight absolutely penetrated through the vest. And it was made in 1972 before there were ships with this kind of tonnage. In 1972 the largest container ship was the LiverPool Bay 2961 TEU. The Dali was 9900 TEU. So over 3 times the cargo capacity and probably 3 times the size and weight. I doubt those concrete bollards produced in 1972 had that size of a ship ( which is a medium size ship today ) in mind during the design and construction. VLCCs were around then. Although they had way too much draft to get into Baltimore harbor. They had lots of engineering problems too. Going to one screw and one propulsion plant saved cash, but wasn't great for redundancy, e.g., Amoco Cadiz etc. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:33:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thread:
Ummmmm I get it, we all hate the DEI thing. But that lady has fuck all to do with anything that happened on that ship. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:35:30 AM EDT
[#5]
I’m guessing by the black smoke, the ship nuked its engine.
Oil fed into the cylinders - probably from the turbo bank(s) - it ran away. They killed it to try to stop the run away. Went to fire it back up, it ran away again (black smoke). Rinse repeat. Or the fuel pump let lose and started to dump fuel. That ship has scrubbers on it. No way it should smoke like that. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:35:54 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ummmmm I get it, we all hate the DEI thing. But that lady has fuck all to do with anything that happened on that ship. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:37:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm guessing by the black smoke, the ship nuked its engine. Oil fed into the cylinders - probably from the turbo bank(s) - it ran away. They killed it to try to stop the run away. Went to fire it back up, it ran away again (black smoke). Rinse repeat. That ship has scrubbers on it. No way it should smoke like that. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:37:26 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thread:
 Attached File |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:38:00 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I started to type out a reasonable explanation very similar to this as I am also intimately familiar with ship steering and propulsion systems. But then I realized how unamerican it was for me to not instantly jump to the remote hacking conclusion that one of our experts has already put forth. I guess you and I are voting D from now on. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm no marine engineer but have significant experience working with vessel steering systems on the control end. The way it works is vessels of this size typically have two large hydraulic steering pumps that are running at all times. At the steering stand or bridge console pump 1 or 2 can be selected very quickly. The pumps themselves should be powered by either a primary bus or emergency bus. Which bus is feeding the pumps depends on the state of the ship's DGs but it is pretty rare for all of these systems to fail. What I predict probably happened was a failure of one of the transfer breakers shortly after departure as the engineers may have switched from a smaller auxiliary generator (which may be used in port due to smaller demand) to one of the larger primary DGs. Typically two DGs will be running at any given point in time with only one actively providing power to main buses, and all that has to happen from a mechanical failure is for the transfer breaker to switch which DG is handling the load to the DG currently on standby. The failure occurred faster than the emergency DG could be brought up and supply transferred to the emergency bus. Does it happen often? No. But it does happen. It happened at the worst possible time for this ship. A steering stand failure could be a possibility as well, but a failure at the stand is not that common. In any case, the ship is sinking so this information will have to be collected from the VDR capsule. The VDR will log a significant amount of events but unfortunately it will likely not log automation system alarm history (showing what plant failures may have occurred) but will log things such as rudder angle - not all that useful as we know the rudder angle was not so good. Some automation systems have their own separate VDR (not all that commonly used in my experience) or report events real time over the vessel internet connection. We'll have to wait and see. Most of the automation systems out of various smaller Asian countries suck in this regard. Expect that here on out a tug escort will be deemed required for all vessels departing Baltimore until they have cleared the (soon to be new) bridge. I started to type out a reasonable explanation very similar to this as I am also intimately familiar with ship steering and propulsion systems. But then I realized how unamerican it was for me to not instantly jump to the remote hacking conclusion that one of our experts has already put forth. I guess you and I are voting D from now on. I'm open minded to the "sabotage" suspicions but I really appreciate people with knowledge of these systems taking time to comment so thoroughly. We're in that awkward stage between "it must be a terrorist attack", "it must be a false flag", "blame diversity", and "fuck the NTSB they're in the bag for X." |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:40:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A week after "someone that has a history of being handed Libyan weapons while destabilizing Syria to the benefit of France and the US" attacks Russia? No. It is completely impossible that any foreign state actor could hack a satellite feed and commandeer the 100% computer controlled guidance and propulsion systems of a ship and ram it into a bridge. That would be just as insane of a statement as saying that the same foreign state actor could or would turn off millions of cell phones across multiple systems, companies, and networks as a cyberattack warning. Or have anything to do with water treatment plants across the US saying that someone has been playing fuck fuck with power to the plant. QUIT all the stoopid talk!! Eat your bread and watch the circus!!!!!! Take a chill pill, newbie. We have enough forum sliders as it is. Wait your turn. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:40:40 AM EDT
[#11]
 MV Dali Hitting Key Bridge in Baltimore - Track and Video Analysis Sorry if this is posted before. Just catching up. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:41:09 AM EDT
[#12]
This thread:
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:41:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Heerema, etc... Of course with our luck, those vessels are probably off in the Persian Gulf or SE Asia right now. But something in that class. Really big lifts. OTC was a fun trade show to attend as a student trying to get into O&G law. Didn't happen, but there's some really neat tech and awfully smart people working offshore. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Doubt. Highly doubt. That's a big bridge. It'll take more than two weeks just to mobilize the gear to do it, and that's if it's on the east coast already, gulf will take longer. The ship is basically pinned in place by a span right now. They'll have to lift it off to prevent sinking the ship. After they collect whatever evidence they want. That shit isn't going anywhere soon. I'm not kidding about a company like Mammoet, there are only a few that have the resources and skill to tackle this in the short term. Just write the check. Make it cost plus and get it done. This is an actual situation where government can act to cut the bullshit red tape and just make it happen. Heerema, etc... Of course with our luck, those vessels are probably off in the Persian Gulf or SE Asia right now. But something in that class. Really big lifts. OTC was a fun trade show to attend as a student trying to get into O&G law. Didn't happen, but there's some really neat tech and awfully smart people working offshore. Looks like the biggest Heerema vesels are in the North sea right now. Those are probably too much crane for this work though. Saipem 7000 is in the North Sea too |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:42:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. The experts in GD have already determined that hackers in Kazakhstan took over the chart plotter and helm controls remotely and steered it into the bridge. Keep up. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pretty good synopsis of the accident in 30 seconds by the qualified captain on instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/C4-i7SorF0Q/?igsh=MXJrbHFidXU1cWR1OA== Power loss, recovery, power loss, attempted recovery, too late, collision. Nope. The experts in GD have already determined that hackers in Kazakhstan took over the chart plotter and helm controls remotely and steered it into the bridge. Keep up. What I am seeing are posts from people who are thinking outside of the box, and look at all angles and asking questions. In light of everything most people have seen in their lifetimes (besides those born yesterday) have seen it is worth a look outside of the box instead of just accepting the simple explanation... at least until a full investigation is completed. They WILL be looking at everything and anything despite what the GD brain trust advice is. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:44:27 AM EDT
[#15]
That was quick.
Video:
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:45:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ummmmm I get it, we all hate the DEI thing. But that lady has fuck all to do with anything that happened on that ship. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thread:
Ummmmm I get it, we all hate the DEI thing. But that lady has fuck all to do with anything that happened on that ship. Someone's incompetence somewhere almost certainly caused this. We've been lowering academic and performance standards for decades to avoid traumatizing sensitive snowflakes or oppressing someone who's obviously entitled to a position even though they're not qualified to hold it. And it's going on everywhere. We'd be better off if it were 'just' terrorists.  |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:46:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 8/10. Comments like these are what makes GD great. I checked in to see if the cartels had been blamed yet. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:46:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was quick. Video:
Not hard to deduce. Shocking it took this long. They made power loss calls before the collision - very easy to validate |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:46:58 AM EDT
[#19]
In the video I posted above, it says that the crew dropped anchor on one side, (presumably as an emergency response to stop the ship?). Too late for intended effect I guess.
Maybe they didn't have power to do it before the lights came back on? Doesn't seem like these guys were on a kamikaze mission. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:46:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many restarts are possible with the normal amount/pressure of stored air? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm guessing by the black smoke, the ship nuked its engine. Oil fed into the cylinders - probably from the turbo bank(s) - it ran away. They killed it to try to stop the run away. Went to fire it back up, it ran away again (black smoke). Rinse repeat. That ship has scrubbers on it. No way it should smoke like that. I would guess two? If they had full tanks. And it depends on the compressors they have on board as well. 3 or 4. We also don’t exactly know when it lost power. I’m assuming at some point post tug release. In the video we see zero smoke at first as it comes into view of the camera. But reality - we don’t know if it’s under its own power or not there. Just because the lights are on, doesn’t mean anyone is home. They could have been waiting for generators to build up air. Fired the engine again, black smoke from the run away, or possibly lack of engine start up. Rinse. Repeat. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:48:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm guessing by the black smoke, the ship nuked its engine. Oil fed into the cylinders - probably from the turbo bank(s) - it ran away. They killed it to try to stop the run away. Went to fire it back up, it ran away again (black smoke). Rinse repeat. That ship has scrubbers on it. No way it should smoke like that. That means in the case of a runaway you can't disengage the shaft. I would think they would have some safeguards built in.....but shit happens. Even if everything is working it takes time to reverse the engine rotation. We'll find out eventually but I agree it was odd to see a ship rolling coal like that these days. Maybe in an emergency they can over ride pollution controls? |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:48:57 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So… it WAS terrorism! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm no marine engineer but have significant experience working with vessel steering systems on the control end. The way it works is vessels of this size typically have two large hydraulic steering pumps that are running at all times. At the steering stand or bridge console pump 1 or 2 can be selected very quickly. The pumps themselves should be powered by either a primary bus or emergency bus. Which bus is feeding the pumps depends on the state of the ship's DGs but it is pretty rare for all of these systems to fail. What I predict probably happened was a failure of one of the transfer breakers shortly after departure as the engineers may have switched from a smaller auxiliary generator (which may be used in port due to smaller demand) to one of the larger primary DGs. Typically two DGs will be running at any given point in time with only one actively providing power to main buses, and all that has to happen from a mechanical failure is for the transfer breaker to switch which DG is handling the load to the DG currently on standby. The failure occurred faster than the emergency DG could be brought up and supply transferred to the emergency bus. Does it happen often? No. But it does happen. It happened at the worst possible time for this ship. A steering stand failure could be a possibility as well, but a failure at the stand is not that common. In any case, the ship is sinking so this information will have to be collected from the VDR capsule. The VDR will log a significant amount of events but unfortunately it will likely not log automation system alarm history (showing what plant failures may have occurred) but will log things such as rudder angle - not all that useful as we know the rudder angle was not so good. Some automation systems have their own separate VDR (not all that commonly used in my experience) or report events real time over the vessel internet connection. We'll have to wait and see. Most of the automation systems out of various smaller Asian countries suck in this regard. Expect that here on out a tug escort will be deemed required for all vessels departing Baltimore until they have cleared the (soon to be new) bridge. So… it WAS terrorism! He said way too many big words. I'm going with terrorism or P Diddy. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:50:27 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not hard to deduce. Shocking it took this long. They made power loss calls before the collision - very easy to validate Doesn't mean that power loss wasn't well timed and intentional. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:51:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct, but she'll be very involved in the clean up and rebuilding. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ummmmm I get it, we all hate the DEI thing. But that lady has fuck all to do with anything that happened on that ship. We're already mad about an event that hasn't started yet? |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:51:48 AM EDT
[#25]
Driving while Asian?
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:52:27 AM EDT
[#26]
We’ve been on the horn with MSC. Have another customer with two reefers of food items on a vessel that was scheduled to arrive 3/31, aside from the other customer already mentioned. Depending on port rotation, the containers will discharge in either New York or Norfolk. Carrier will declare force majuer, so importers will be stuck with the costs of trucking their containers to the Baltimore area. The food reefers have already been customs cleared. I have to get with CBP and FDA once the carriers indicate where they’ll discharge these containers. You can’t just change the port of entry on a clearance already done.
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:53:23 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's become clear that p Diddy has orchestrated this bridge collapse to draw attention away from himself. Finally, a voice of reason. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:54:00 AM EDT
[#28]
Michael Yon predicted this?
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:54:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone driving an electric car is fucked even if they survived the fall. Why, oh genius? |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:54:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Youtube version
 Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse in Baltimore, MD (March 26, 2024) — Webcam Footage from the Port |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:56:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Don't drink and drive?
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:56:41 AM EDT
[#32]
We don't know enough to draw any conclusions yet. It could be deliberate. It could be incompetence. It could be catastrophic mechanical failure.
Anyone who claims to know which, at this point, is full of shit. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:58:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Thread is dildos
 Loss of power and or steerage of such a large vessel is scary. I'll bet the pilot was yelling so loud he didn't need a radio for port authority to hear him. RIP to those lost in this tragedy. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:58:32 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not hard to deduce. Shocking it took this long. They made power loss calls before the collision - very easy to validate FBI quickly annnounces no terrorism… it’s a coverup FBI takes a while to announce no terrorism… it’s a coverup |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:58:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Are harbor pilots hired on a DEI basis now?
Asking for a friend. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:58:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Holy fuck
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:58:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Officials were quick to rule out the catastrophe as intentional or an act of terrorism, and an early Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) report found the container ship 'lost propulsion' as it was leaving port.
'The vessel notified MD Department of Transportation (MDOT) that they had lost control of the vessel and an collision with the bridge was possible,' the report said. 'The vessel struck the bridge causing a complete collapse.'     Link |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 10:59:34 AM EDT
[#38]
I haven't read all 15 pages, so this might have already been posted.
Old vs New, the FL Skyline Bridge showing the different bridge protection schemes. The New is on the left; the old, being demolished, on the right. ETA: For those that don't know, the original Skyline Bridge was struck by a ship May 1980 and collapsed, killing 35 people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Skyway_Bridge  |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:00:38 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We’ve been on the horn with MSC. Have another customer with two reefers of food items on a vessel that was scheduled to arrive 3/31, aside from the other customer already mentioned. Depending on port rotation, the containers will discharge in either New York or Norfolk. Carrier will declare force majuer, so importers will be stuck with the costs of trucking their containers to the Baltimore area. The food reefers have already been customs cleared. I have to get with CBP and FDA once the carriers indicate where they’ll discharge these containers. You can’t just change the port of entry on a clearance already done. Tell us what food item it is so we can get ahead of the forthcoming price hike. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:01:20 AM EDT
[#40]
Everyone can becalm themselves - Buttigieg is en route to the scene.
"Oh thank God, we're saved! A politician has arrived!" - no victim or rescuer, ever. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:01:41 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:01:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was quick. Video:
They have no credibility. My gut feeling is this was just an accident or incompetence. But I certainly understand why people are pondering the terrorism aspect. We all know our government lies to us and has no credibility. So we can't trust the official narrative. They did that to us they broke trust and anything the mainstream media or government says should be regarded with skepticism. That is a reasonable approach not tin foil. That said it seems like this case most likely is not nefarious. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:02:17 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are harbor pilots hired on a DEI basis now? Asking for a friend. I know one that works the lower Chesapeake Bay and the training is very comprehensive. As part of his testing he had to be able to draw from memory an accurate chart of the bay, to scale, with accurate depths. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:02:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FBI quickly annnounces no terrorism… it’s a coverup FBI takes a while to announce no terrorism… it’s a coverup Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not hard to deduce. Shocking it took this long. They made power loss calls before the collision - very easy to validate FBI quickly annnounces no terrorism… it’s a coverup FBI takes a while to announce no terrorism… it’s a coverup They can only blame themselves for making themselves an absolute joke with no credibility who has proven they don't have America's interest in mind. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:02:48 AM EDT
[#45]
Another angle. I cannot believe the main bridge supports were not protected with huge bollards. No protection at all.
Video |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:03:05 AM EDT
[#46]
I don't have an opinion about anything yet but:
The FBI or anyone else saying there's no evidence of terrorism just means they don't have evidence. It's not a definitive statement and it's not a statement ruling out the possibility. It's just a statement about what they know at present time. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:03:23 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was quick. Video:
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:03:40 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell us what food item it is so we can get ahead of the forthcoming price hike. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We’ve been on the horn with MSC. Have another customer with two reefers of food items on a vessel that was scheduled to arrive 3/31, aside from the other customer already mentioned. Depending on port rotation, the containers will discharge in either New York or Norfolk. Carrier will declare force majuer, so importers will be stuck with the costs of trucking their containers to the Baltimore area. The food reefers have already been customs cleared. I have to get with CBP and FDA once the carriers indicate where they’ll discharge these containers. You can’t just change the port of entry on a clearance already done. Tell us what food item it is so we can get ahead of the forthcoming price hike. Shit for Indian grocery stores. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:04:00 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone's incompetence somewhere almost certainly caused this. We've been lowering academic and performance standards for decades to avoid traumatizing sensitive snowflakes or oppressing someone who's obviously entitled to a position even though they're not qualified to hold it. And it's going on everywhere. We'd be better off if it were 'just' terrorists. Except that isn’t a US flagged vessel and likely had exactly zero American crew members. Third world shit hole problems? Likely. American DEI, LGBTQBBQ, everyone gets a trophy problems? Not likely. |
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Posted: 3/26/2024 11:04:00 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We don't know enough to draw any conclusions yet. It could be deliberate. It could be incompetence. It could be catastrophic mechanical failure. We do already know that the ship contacted the harbor authorities and informed them "that they had lost control of the vessel and an collision with the bridge was possible" That almost certainly rules out the "deliberate" explanation - and suggests mechanical failure, possibly caused by incompetence. |
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