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Posted: 2/22/2010 6:54:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 6:54:40 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Since CavArms can't/won't respond directly to questions asking for clarification about the points in the article I unfortunately have to assume the legal facts that are reported in the article are actually true. The fact is, this is no longer a case of an unjustified raid on a business that was doing nothing illegal. Accounting mistakes? Booking keeping mistakes? Not really. 40 off the books sales to someone from California is not a minor over sight and this was not a witch hunt without basis. If you just plead to a felony and were awaiting sentencing would you get on the internet and start spouting about how the BATF railroaded you, shot your poodle and put beans in your chili? Judges get pissed when you show up for sentencing and find that you have been saying you were innocent since you plead guilty. Right, wrong or somewhere in the middle the time between a plea and sentencing is not the time to be posting about what happened on the internet. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 6:55:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: "to the ultimate purchaser of our assets" Group buy? I'm in for a lower or two.  |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 6:56:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Buy the dies and an injection mold machine and a sonic welder and you can make all the lowers you want.Quoted: "to the ultimate purchaser of our assets" Group buy? I'm in for a lower or two. I'm sure many fun filled meetings with BATF agents will also be in your Blackberry. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 6:58:08 AM EDT
[#5]
Hmmm.
Am I the only person who felt like I was lead to believe that CavArms had no idea what the ATF was hunting for and were never charged with anything even after all this time? It seems CavArms knew from day one about those 40 guns from his house.... I bet there are going to be some pissed off folks who donated to their defense fund. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 6:59:07 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Hmmm. Am I the only person who felt like I was lead to believe that CavArms had no idea what the ATF was hunting for and were never charged with anything even after all this time? It seems CavArms knew from day one about those 40 guns from his house.... I bet there are going to be some pissed off folks who donated to their defense fund. Above. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 6:59:29 AM EDT
[#7]
The message here; don't sell a completed serial numbered lower to your own mother, you haven't known her long enough...
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:00:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: There are a number of, I'm sure, very good people who work for the BATFE. I'm sure they are upstanding and righteous and they carry out their duties with justice and fairness in mind. That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. I try to be as reasonable of a dude as possible and I'm not some tinfoil hat wearing loon, but I don't trust the ATF as an organization farther than I can throw it because there are too many documented, provable examples that show the organization is ate the hell up. Residency checks in Richmond, dragnetting AR-15 owners in Virginia in the aftermath of the DC sniper episode.... No sir...I don't trust 'em. Cav Arms may have been 100% in the wrong here, legally. I don't know. I don't know anyone at Cav Arms or who they dealt with. I never even bought a single item from them... All I know is that I don't trust the BATFE for an unbiased account of what happened. If I were made unquestioned dictator tomorrow, my first act would be to disband the BATFE and to strip the replacement organization of any and all discretionary authority. The organization has proven to me over the years that they can't handle it. Vincent said as much as 90 percent of the government's original case against Cavalry was dismissed, leaving his client pleading guilty to selling to an out-of-state buyer. Also considering CA was allowed to restart production of lowers is very telling to how much was wrong about the ATF's raid. It's pretty obvious that the ATF has no idea what they are doing half the time. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:01:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Sounds like bullshit to me. ANY record-keeping errors can easily be turned into "oh he did this INTENTIONALLY TO HIDE it!" What a load of crap. I agree, look at what the OTHER gov't agency does to people. The IRS has a play book that no one can read and understand. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:04:08 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Go piss up a rope. When they start handing out brownshirts I am sure you will have your hand out asking for yours. The ATF has taken two years to trump up charges after seizing all records, inventory, personal property of employees and yet you believe the ATF? You think a man should go to prison for 5 years over a paperwork compliance issue? Over a gun that the .gov says is 'illegally sold'? Seriously? For all the cries for Freedom and Liberty you think paperwork is a federal crime? TRG shut your hole Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:04:25 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Sounds like bullshit to me. ANY record-keeping errors can easily be turned into "oh he did this INTENTIONALLY TO HIDE it!" What a load of crap. after this thread yesterday I agree with you http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1002962 |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:04:57 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
It's a bullshit charge that is going to screw up a good man's life. TRG it's the atf. it's what they do it's all they do. TXL |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:04:58 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmm. Am I the only person who felt like I was lead to believe that CavArms had no idea what the ATF was hunting for and were never charged with anything even after all this time? It seems CavArms knew from day one about those 40 guns from his house.... I bet there are going to be some pissed off folks who donated to their defense fund. Above. So it seems that I'm not only one. I thought I had kept up enough to know that was still what everyone was thinking That is pretty fucked up. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:06:14 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. name one innocent person that the ATF just came and fucked with for no reason? |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:06:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Fuck the ATF
 I still support Cav Arms. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:07:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. So, which atf office do you work out of? Cause the rest of us know you are full of shit with that one. TXL |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:07:58 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. name one innocent person that the ATF just came and fucked with for no reason? Dude..WTF? Do you think the ATF has charged EVERY single person or company they have ever investigated? |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:08:07 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Go piss up a rope. When they start handing out brownshirts I am sure you will have your hand out asking for yours. The ATF has taken two years to trump up charges after seizing all records, inventory, personal property of employees and yet you believe the ATF? You think a man should go to prison for 5 years over a paperwork compliance issue? Over a gun that the .gov says is 'illegally sold'? Seriously? For all the cries for Freedom and Liberty you think paperwork is a federal crime? TRG shut your hole Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. After dealing with the BATFE seizing all my assets and holding everything I own without any charges or even a hint of charges (for years), I might be willing to plead to some bullshit charges too. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:08:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Well this is certainly an unexpected turn of events!
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:08:52 AM EDT
[#20]
"CavArms has some righteous dudes working there and the ATF has screwed you over since they don't have the guts to take on street and prison gangs," one person said in an online post."
This is a true statement. The ATF is the biggest chickenshit organization in the US Government. They will spend their time to go after people like Randy Weaver, David Koresh and raid Cav Arms and do a whole lot of easy projects but they don't have the guts to take on the Mexican gangs in California or the Black gangs in almost every big city. Since they are chickenshits they take on the easy targets. Targets where the people haven't committed a crime with the weapons. They won't go after the Mexican gangs because they are afraid of getting their asses kicked. Hell, even David Koresh kicked their ass. We need to do away with the ATF because it is a workless gang of incompetent chickenshits. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:09:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Hmmm. Am I the only person who felt like I was lead to believe that CavArms had no idea what the ATF was hunting for and were never charged with anything even after all this time? It seems CavArms knew from day one about those 40 guns from his house.... I bet there are going to be some pissed off folks who donated to their defense fund. This pretty much sums it all up. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:10:35 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Since CavArms can't/won't respond directly to questions asking for clarification about the points in the article I unfortunately have to assume the legal facts that are reported in the article are actually true. The fact is, this is no longer a case of an unjustified raid on a business that was doing nothing illegal. Accounting mistakes? Booking keeping mistakes? Not really. 40 off the books sales to someone from California is not a minor over sight and this was not a witch hunt without basis. "Those weapons included: nine 9mm handguns, five .45-caliber handguns, five .22-caliber handguns, five .223 rifles, three 12-gauge shotguns, two .38-caliber handguns, two .44-caliber handguns, a .380-caliber handgun, a .308 rifle, a 7.62x39mm rifle, a 5.45x39mm rifle and a .357 rifle. " Most of that isn't even CavArms stuff, AFAIK. These may have been personal guns, not required to be on any books. We don't know. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:11:22 AM EDT
[#23]
I wonder how this would be impacted if the 2nd is incorporated. Would California laws be unconstitutional and the sales actually legal.
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:11:30 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Go piss up a rope. When they start handing out brownshirts I am sure you will have your hand out asking for yours. The ATF has taken two years to trump up charges after seizing all records, inventory, personal property of employees and yet you believe the ATF? You think a man should go to prison for 5 years over a paperwork compliance issue? Over a gun that the .gov says is 'illegally sold'? Seriously? For all the cries for Freedom and Liberty you think paperwork is a federal crime? TRG And on top of that, the laws he (allegedly) broke shouldn't even BE laws to begin with. Fuck the ATF. They interpret laws however they see fit. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:12:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
And now on arfcom, the most avatar changes in 24 hours in history. Nope, that honor belongs to the Chuck Norris and the nite we all became him. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:12:49 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. Was just gonna say....... If this thing didn't have some legs from the git go, I doubt the ATF and Cav ever would have crossed paths. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:13:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. name one innocent person that the ATF just came and fucked with for no reason? how about the dead childern at waco, do they count as being fucked with? |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:13:16 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Go piss up a rope. When they start handing out brownshirts I am sure you will have your hand out asking for yours. The ATF has taken two years to trump up charges after seizing all records, inventory, personal property of employees and yet you believe the ATF? You think a man should go to prison for 5 years over a paperwork compliance issue? Over a gun that the .gov says is 'illegally sold'? Seriously? For all the cries for Freedom and Liberty you think paperwork is a federal crime? TRG shut your hole Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. After dealing with the BATFE seizing all my assets and holding everything I own without any charges or even a hint of charges (for years), I might be willing to plead to some bullshit charges too. Yea, but would you plead to a felony for something you didn't do? |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:13:16 AM EDT
[#29]
Am I the only one who is sick of people on the internet or news whine and cry they diden't do anything wrong but it turns out they are guilty as shit?
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:13:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Ok, having read the above, I'll pull out my Crystal Ball and look into the past to come up with a possible scenario.
Cav doesn't make .380 pistols, etc.... Shawn sold some of his private collection to an individual. That individual may or may not have a residence in AZ (so it would be permissible under ATF rules for them to own while they are in residence in AZ, and make purchases while they are a resident in AZ). As they were private sales of a private collection, Shawn didn't realize it was required to do the regular 4473, etc. crap. AFARR |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:14:28 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Time for two Arfcom staples..... play stupid games, win stupid prizes http://www.theboxset.com/images/reviewcaptures/612capture_tombstone03.jpg i dunno, i'm surprised at the hive's inability/unwillingness to throw out "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" in some cases. eta: also stunned to see not a single mention of "ASSAULT RIFLES ZOMFG!!!" in the article... |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:15:15 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Go piss up a rope. When they start handing out brownshirts I am sure you will have your hand out asking for yours. The ATF has taken two years to trump up charges after seizing all records, inventory, personal property of employees and yet you believe the ATF? You think a man should go to prison for 5 years over a paperwork compliance issue? Over a gun that the .gov says is 'illegally sold'? Seriously? For all the cries for Freedom and Liberty you think paperwork is a federal crime? TRG shut your hole Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. LoL, they confiscated an entire business over what one person did with record keepings. Also, there is no claim that they were sold to illegal persons, only in a illegal manor, which can mean just about anything in the ATF's play book. The ATF's conduct in this case is demonstrable, regaurdless of Nealon's actions. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:15:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Wow
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:15:28 AM EDT
[#34]
I'd like to know the full story, but it's not looking good for Cav Arms...
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:15:35 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmm. Am I the only person who felt like I was lead to believe that CavArms had no idea what the ATF was hunting for and were never charged with anything even after all this time? I bet there are going to be some pissed off folks who donated to their defense fund. Above. I am among you, but I withhold judgement until I hear what CavArms has to say about all this
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:15:51 AM EDT
[#36]
Okay, WTF do I do with my Cav Arms t-shirt now.
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:16:34 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Go piss up a rope. When they start handing out brownshirts I am sure you will have your hand out asking for yours. The ATF has taken two years to trump up charges after seizing all records, inventory, personal property of employees and yet you believe the ATF? You think a man should go to prison for 5 years over a paperwork compliance issue? Over a gun that the .gov says is 'illegally sold'? Seriously? For all the cries for Freedom and Liberty you think paperwork is a federal crime? TRG shut your hole Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. Dude, we have no idea what went on all that time. Given their previous romps I would not put it past the ATF to charge him and his whole company with 500 years in Club Fed, and then "let" him plead guilty to this relatively minor charge while they revoke his FFL... It's a win/win from the ATF's perspective, and another gun manufacturer goes down while the ATF gets to put another notch in its headboard. I have no inside info at all, this is pure speculation, but tell me that's not at very least plausible. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:16:46 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
name one innocent person that the ATF just came and fucked with for no reason? Albert Kwan Doug Friesen and more info. As for Mr. Nealon, I'll reserve judgement until after the sentencing hearing in April. If he ends up with no/minimal prison time then it's a good bet he ran out of money for his defense, and took a plea deal. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:17:19 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
that sucks to hear, but the ATF still is a bunch of douchebags |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:18:05 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Okay, WTF do I do with my Cav Arms t-shirt now. Toilet paper? |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:18:24 AM EDT
[#41]
Oh, wow......
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:20:54 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: There are a number of, I'm sure, very good people who work for the BATFE. I'm sure they are upstanding and righteous and they carry out their duties with justice and fairness in mind. ... but enough about the custodial staff.....
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:21:08 AM EDT
[#43]
This is why I stayed out of all those Cav Arms threads.
They knew all along why they were raided. Lame 
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:21:42 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Nope. F-troop has very good reasons to fuck with people. They don't believe in private firearms ownership (as an entity, by their repeated and documented abuses of gun owners e.g. the need for GOPA of 86 [which we STILL got screwed on]) Do you know there are more than 6 thousand people in prison over paperwork, tax stamp, $200 bullshit just because a hunk of metal isn't the way the fucking government says it should be. (actually not even the .gov It's the misruling on the Miller case by the Supreme court.) Bullshit laws that shouldn't be there in the first place cost a man money and possibly freedom and people like you are fine with it. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:21:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Yea, but would you plead to a felony for something you didn't do? When there is an axe poised above your neck, and the offer is made to lop off a pinky instead, you too would likely do anything to make the change, guilty or not. Being right, when your government is wrong is a very dangerous position to be in. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:22:15 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Right....The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:22:42 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Hmmm. Am I the only person who felt like I was lead to believe that CavArms had no idea what the ATF was hunting for and were never charged with anything even after all this time? It seems CavArms knew from day one about those 40 guns from his house.... I bet there are going to be some pissed off folks who donated to their defense fund. That was always my impression, but in hindsight IIRC the only official line from Cav was that they were innocent of any crime and weren't being told what the allegations were, not that they couldn't guess what the allegations were. And it would be pretty stupid to publicly guess what the allegations against you were in the middle of an investigation. I don't think they broke faith there, unless of course the ATF's allegations are true and the plea isn't just taking the hit in order to end an unjust and intolerable prosecution. |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:23:00 AM EDT
[#48]
Fffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuu..............
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:23:08 AM EDT
[#49]
I admit coming in laet t the saga, but reading between the lines here's what I get:
1) ATF gets it's panties in a twist over a s/n issue and instead of addressing it as a technical problem, goes the criminal investigation route. 2) "Criminal" investigation escalates in urgency, resulting in full out "Grab everything that isn't nailed down" raid. Piercing the corporate veil, they raid the owner's house as well. 3) Raid reveals nothing definite regarding the original issue which, combined with some congressional pushback on revoking licenses for paperwork errors, leads them to drop those charges. But the raid on the owner's house produced some head scratching over who "owned" what regarding his personal gun collection. So now they go after the individual, while maintaining that the investigation is about CavArms the corporation. 4) Everyone gets tired, so a plea deal is cut - The "company" pleads guilty to questionable charges, and in return the gov't doesn't seek jail time for the owner. The manufacturing license gets revoked, which was the initial intent of the ATF, so someone retires with a pat on the back instead of a boot in the ass. About right? |
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Posted: 2/22/2010 7:23:50 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. No sir...I don't trust 'em. . And yet the hordes are rushing to throw Shawn under the bus without a second thought about the BATFE and their methods and tactics. TRG I had an FFL back in the Clinton era. After the stories from Waco, Ruby Ridge, and a host of lesser publicized events with BATF where more than just dogs were killed.....I sat down and read the rule book cover to cover. The rights you give up with an FFL, their very, very ambigous set of regs and the BATF attitude in general convinced me to turn my FFL back in and close my little business. I was especially terrified they would come knocking when I was out of town and my wife would be exposed to their tactics. Some things just ain't worth it. |
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