[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CAV ARMS LOSES FFL TO ATF and OWNER ADMITS TO ILLEGALLY SELLING 40 GUNS, COULD DO TIME. (Page 3 of 34)
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Quoted: Oh brother!Quoted: Quoted: They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. Go piss up a rope. When they start handing out brownshirts I am sure you will have your hand out asking for yours. The ATF has taken two years to trump up charges after seizing all records, inventory, personal property of employees and yet you believe the ATF? You think a man should go to prison for 5 years over a paperwork compliance issue? Over a gun that the .gov says is 'illegally sold'? Seriously? For all the cries for Freedom and Liberty you think paperwork is a federal crime? TRG shut your hole Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. |
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The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. As stated above, there are too many documented accounts to the opposite. Was just gonna say....... If this thing didn't have some legs from the git go, I doubt the ATF and Cav ever would have crossed paths. Or it could have been an approval letter that should never have been granted in the first place and it's effect on an institution that, as the interpreter of it's own rules, CANNOT be wrong. If there's been a fuckup, but the one who's at fault can't admit it, a lot of "legs" tend to sprout. |
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The ATF handled this whole matter in an unprofessional manner.
That said, the plead guilty and there's no mention of a plea deal in the article which suggests that there may have been no "agree to this charge to dodge these charges." In the end, it seems CavArms's top honcho screwed up. |
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This article is useless without more specifics and less spin. These sales could have been illegal for a number of reasons that are primarily paperwork related issues. Any small business can run into record-keeping problems. While in the case of firearms, it might be appropriate to take regulatory action based upon these issues, criminal charges are not warranted for such errors IMO. I also thought that FFL's were generally permitted to sell long guns to out of state buyers. Could it be that he sold the lowers which might not be considered long guns?
It also sounds like the ATF decided to fuck with this guy on a techincality, namely the bullshit about the lowers, and decided to dig into other areas to fuck him over. I think that an adequately observant federal LEO could probably cook up some kind of felony violation for just about every adult in this country. I'm sure just about everybody in the gun business in paticular could be so charged if subjected to enough scrutiny. In short, this article is nothing new. It is exactly the kind of propaganda to be expected from the government under these circumstances. I find the fact that none of these guns were connected to any violent crime to be a telling sign that this might be regulatory overreaching. |
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This is confusing, as usual. From what I am reading it sounds like the ATF went to Cav-Arms looking at illegal manufacturing charges, and came away with Nealon pleading guilty to illegally selling (his possibly personal) guns to out-of-state residents - like they went looking for one thing, but found another.
hard to imagine 
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That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. No sir...I don't trust 'em. . And yet the hordes are rushing to throw Shawn under the bus without a second thought about the BATFE and their methods and tactics. TRG Well it appears they were engaged in illegal sales. What I want to know is when did they know the details of why the raid was conducted. I have a major problem with them if they knew all along and led the site on for two years. I want an answer to the red part too, I am trying to be reserved and non-judgemental of either party, but I want an answerr to the red part. |
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So that is the best they could come up with? Once you get raided, there is NO WAY they are not going to get you on something. The ATF just dug around until they found something. Sad. They will always find something,the ATF is a unlawful orginization IMO. |
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Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that half of Arfcom is ready to throw Cav Arms under the bus based on one incredibly biased article. So you guys really think Shawn was intending to go into the gun running business?
That article was written with nothing but the ATF's perspective. They've had over 2 years to drum up some kind of BS charges and after getting 90% of their case thrown out the best they can do is pin Shawn Nealon with a supposed "illegal transfer" of what were probably personally owned weapons? Face it, ATF had Shawn and Cav Arms over a barrel; he got as much of the govt's case thrown out as they could but in the end the government always wins 
There was no crime committed here, at the end of all this ordeal they nailed a good business to the wall for paperwork errors. All this event does is make me hate the BATF even more. |
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The ATF cited violations dating to 2000, including failure to keep a weapons inventory, failure to conduct background checks on at least 25 purchasers and failure to report a multiple-handgun sale.
Let's not forget this. The rules are the rules, like 'em or not. |
I'm a supporter of Shawn still. Those 40 guns probably were actually a friends. I do remember a good California guy that moved to AZ Several years ago that was a friend of Shawns. He tried to bring fire on a plane.  I wouldn't surprise me if there was an obscure violation like a change of address hadn't been completed or something.
The ATF most likely just couldn't get anything else to stick and Shawn's legal council probably told him to plead to this crappy charge and be done with it. I doubt that the original reason for the raid will ever be brought out by the feds and I don't doubt the Cav Crew when they said they didn't know the reason. The rest of you Cav haters that need a place to send your shirts or other items, send them to me. Those guys re still my friends and have done more for this site and AR's in general than most. |
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Quoted: There are a number of, I'm sure, very good people who work for the BATFE. I'm sure they are upstanding and righteous and they carry out their duties with justice and fairness in mind. That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. I try to be as reasonable of a dude as possible and I'm not some tinfoil hat wearing loon, but I don't trust the ATF as an organization farther than I can throw it because there are too many documented, provable examples that show the organization is ate the hell up. Residency checks in Richmond, dragnetting AR-15 owners in Virginia in the aftermath of the DC sniper episode.... No sir...I don't trust 'em. Cav Arms may have been 100% in the wrong here, legally. I don't know. I don't know anyone at Cav Arms or who they dealt with. I never even bought a single item from them... All I know is that I don't trust the BATFE for an unbiased account of what happened. If I were made unquestioned dictator tomorrow, my first act would be to disband the BATFE and to strip the replacement organization of any and all discretionary authority. The organization has proven to me over the years that they can't handle it. This. With the ATF being held to such loosely defined ROE - that they themselves get to modify at will, the seeming capriciousness of thier "decisions" and "rulings", and the lack of "precedent", even for issues determined by their own agency the ability for one's job title to make one an "expert", despite no requirement for formal training or experience in anything having to do with firearms use, maintenance, production or modification to get that job and their ability to reverse their previous decision because of a change in wind direction or other whim. All of these things make me automatically question their side of the case. And I know a few ATF guys. They're all decent - it's just the actions of others at their agency have tainted their rep. Quoted: I admit coming in laet t the saga, but reading between the lines here's what I get: 1) ATF gets it's panties in a twist over a s/n issue and instead of addressing it as a technical problem, goes the criminal investigation route. 2) "Criminal" investigation escalates in urgency, resulting in full out "Grab everything that isn't nailed down" raid. Piercing the corporate veil, they raid the owner's house as well. 3) Raid reveals nothing definite regarding the original issue which, combined with some congressional pushback on revoking licenses for paperwork errors, leads them to drop those charges. But the raid on the owner's house produced some head scratching over who "owned" what regarding his personal gun collection. So now they go after the individual, while maintaining that the investigation is about CavArms the corporation. 4) Everyone gets tired, so a plea deal is cut - The "company" pleads guilty to questionable charges, and in return the gov't doesn't seek jail time for the owner. The manufacturing license gets revoked, which was the initial intent of the ATF, so someone retires with a pat on the back instead of a boot in the ass. About right? Well, if the quote about "as much as 90 percent of the government's original case against Cavalry was dismissed" is true, then it sounds like a reasonable estimate. Too bad the "poison fruit" rule doesn't apply in these cases. Of course, who am I kidding. The long accepted rules of scientific methodology don't apply when the agency involved is ATF. Quoted: Quoted: Yea, but would you plead to a felony for something you didn't do? When there is an axe poised above your neck, and the offer is made to lop off a pinky instead, you too would likely do anything to make the change, guilty or not. Being right, when your government is wrong is a very dangerous position to be in. Had a friend in a similar situation - guilty of a technical violation rather than one committed with intent. When you have a budget that is limited - unlike Uncle, and when you have one attorney, instead of Uncle's dozens looking for keep busy make-work, sometimes you make a decision that results in a minimal amount of suffering.  ETA - Not an FFL, but is there a difference in sales of individual firearms between a Type 1 (retail sales) and a Type 7 (manufacturer)? It's expected that an "FFL" (an 01 that is a single individual selling and buying firearms) is dealing mostly in single weapons, and that a manufacturer (07) is dealing in greater quantities. I know the record keeping for sales to individuals is the same (4473), but what is the requirement when a manufacturer sells a firearm to a wholesaler or distributor? Were the weapons in question personal firearms that didn't get logged as personal firearms, which were transferred VIA the FFL w/o ever being listed as having been "received"? (BS, but my bet after a moment's pause and reflection) |
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It is sad to see so many people ready to throw them under the bus when we havent even heard the other side of the story.
Hopefully Sinistral or Gary will comment. Until then you can be assured that the ATF story is the one I will doubt. Like a bunch of teenage girls in a popularity contest. 
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Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. It pretty much comes down to that for me. If he hadn't done that, I'd still maintain the entire BATFE raid and everything coming from it was a farce. But when the guy stands up and says, "Guilty"....
I'm not quite ready to string him up yet. We know can't trust the media and government's spin on the story. Honestly from the little bit of information we do have, it sounds like the reasons stated for the raid were wrong but they dug enough to find some bad transfers. We don't know the details of those. He very well may have thought he was going by the book. He may have been trying to sell his buddy from CA guns that he couldn't buy too. We just don't know enough. I'm willing to believe that a guy made an honest mistake about the line between personal collection and his ffl and the government dug in enough that his lawyer said "this is the best you're going to get." I think it is unlikely that a man running a successful business decided to "get rich" by doing illegal transfers of 40 guns, I think honest mistake is just the likely answer. |
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wow stupid bit them in the ass. That's always our first reaction: "Whew, I could never be that stupid, and therefore I am Safe" It's our basest human instinct, going all the way back to the time when people were getting eaten by Saber toothed Tigers and stomped by Woolly Mammoths. Just a natural coping mechanism that enables us to keep our sanity in the face of random forces and events that can destroy our lives at any time. One thing is clear: This was a witch hunt. The ATF admits it, when they talk about guns flowing into Mexico. The nice thing about the Feds, is that they have so many laws, and so many branches, that they can always find something to hang us with. I would bet that they could raid your house today, and find something that you are guilty of. Even if you were innocent, it wouldn't matter. You would go broke trying to prove it. |
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The ATF cited violations dating to 2000, including failure to keep a weapons inventory, failure to conduct background checks on at least 25 purchasers and failure to report a multiple-handgun sale.
Let's not forget this. The rules are the rules, like 'em or not. Here's the big question - was the FFL held by the owner as an individual or by the corporation? |
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Since CavArms can't/won't respond directly to questions asking for clarification about the points in the article I unfortunately have to assume the legal facts that are reported in the article are actually true. The fact is, this is no longer a case of an unjustified raid on a business that was doing nothing illegal. Accounting mistakes? Booking keeping mistakes? Not really. 40 off the books sales to someone from California is not a minor over sight and this was not a witch hunt without basis. "Those weapons included: nine 9mm handguns, five .45-caliber handguns, five .22-caliber handguns, five .223 rifles, three 12-gauge shotguns, two .38-caliber handguns, two .44-caliber handguns, a .380-caliber handgun, a .308 rifle, a 7.62x39mm rifle, a 5.45x39mm rifle and a .357 rifle. " Most of that isn't even CavArms stuff, AFAIK. These may have been personal guns, not required to be on any books. We don't know. It is questionable that these transactions were even related to the Cav Arms business, as they clearly were not firearms manufactured by Cav Arms. The article suggests that 90% of what the ATF tried to push didn't fly, most of whcih related to the conduct of the business. These charges seem like an afterthought and were probably opportunistic attempts to capitalize on a paperwork mistake rather than criminal intent. It soulds to me like Cav Arms may very well have been honest about the overall nature of the dispute. |
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Quoted: It is sad to see so many people ready to throw them under the bus when we haven't even heard the other side of the story. Hopefully Sinistral or Gary will comment. Until then you can be assured that the ATF story is the one I will doubt. Like a bunch of teenage girls in a popularity contest. "Throw under a bus"? Probably not and I would like to hear what they [CavArms] has to say about this eventually but after several years of no new news and then to get this? I feel seriously misled and am not particularly happy about it. |
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It is sad to see so many people ready to throw them under the bus when we havent even heard the other side of the story. Hopefully Sinistral or Gary will comment. Until then you can be assured that the ATF story is the one I will doubt. Like a bunch of teenage girls in a popularity contest. +1 Too many just clamoring to throw people under the bus and believe the ATF. TRG |
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The ATF cited violations dating to 2000, including failure to keep a weapons inventory, failure to conduct background checks on at least 25 purchasers and failure to report a multiple-handgun sale.
Let's not forget this. The rules are the rules, like 'em or not. Here's the big question - was the FFL held by the owner as an individual or by the corporation? Cavalry Arms Corp held the FFL. |
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Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. It pretty much comes down to that for me. If he hadn't done that, I'd still maintain the entire BATFE raid and everything coming from it was a farce. But when the guy stands up and says, "Guilty"....
Let me restate it for you.... When there is an axe poised above your neck, and the offer is made to lop off a pinky instead, you too would likely do anything to make the change, guilty or not. |
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This is confusing, as usual. From what I am reading it sounds like the ATF went to Cav-Arms looking at illegal manufacturing charges, and came away with Nealon pleading guilty to illegally selling (his possibly personal) guns to out-of-state residents - like they went looking for one thing, but found another. hard to imagine
Sounds like an accurate summary. |
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Shawn nealon admitted illegal sale of weapons , Guilty. It pretty much comes down to that for me. If he hadn't done that, I'd still maintain the entire BATFE raid and everything coming from it was a farce. But when the guy stands up and says, "Guilty"....
I'm 100% certain that the public felt the same way during the Spanish Inquisition. The technique is so effective that it's been used all throughout history. You torture your victim and wear them down until they will plead to anything. Makes everything nice and neat. And it's cheered on, by the general public. |
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Unfortunately, we aren't privy to first hand info. As a fellow Scout, and having served with one of his best friends...my support for CavArms has been there from day one However, he plead guilty and if he lied or mislead us...so be it. The support will no longer exist. All we can do is wait to hear it from CavArms. Quoted: Quoted: If his guilty plea is true...not just some 'agreement'....he fucking lied to all of us. You and many here have no idea what you are talking about. Nothing but speculation. |
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That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. No sir...I don't trust 'em. . And yet the hordes are rushing to throw Shawn under the bus without a second thought about the BATFE and their methods and tactics. TRG Yup, sounds like he only sold legal guns to a legal gun owner, execpt the buyer was not from the state of sale... ....and as far as him pleding guilty, I'm sure the "deal' they offered him was too good to pass up. They obviously wanted anything they could that would stick otherwise they would have gone after the more serious charges. He was scared, and rightfully so, and took a BS plea deal. |
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Quoted: Am I the only one who is sick of people on the internet or news whine and cry they diden't do anything wrong but it turns out they are guilty as shit? Guilty of what? Selling a firearm across state lines. Doesn't bother me it's an unconstitutional law anyway. How would you feel if the government made you obtain a permit before writing an editorial in another state? Do you work for the ATF?
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Am I the only one who is sick of people on the internet or news whine and cry they didn't do anything wrong but it turns out they are guilty as shit? You [edited by EdSr] has no idea how the justice system works. There are plenty of innocent people who take a guilty plea vs. take on the federal government. |
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They wrote that they made mistakes, so they were in the wrong. The ATF dosent go arround fucking with people for no reason. Wheres all the ATF bashers now? CavArms= fuckups. TheB ATFEces routinely fucks with people for no reason and violate the law to do so...That is why 2 agents showed up on my door step last year asking about handgun purchases....FOPA violations and Tiarht violations abounded....fuck the BATFEces.... Nealon was fucking stupid for selling 40 firearms 1) off the FFL book, 2) out of state.. |
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One thing is clear: This was a witch hunt. The ATF admits it, when they talk about guns flowing into Mexico. The nice thing about the Feds, is that they have so many laws, and so many branches, that they can always find something to hang us with. I would bet that they could raid your house today, and find something that you are guilty of. Even if you were innocent, it wouldn't matter. You would go broke trying to prove it. Quoted for emphasis. I think the ATF knew they screwed up but to save face and not come out looking like the bunch of thugs they are, they had to find something, anything, to charge. They turned up mostly empty on Cav Arms so they had to go after Shawn personally, and even then the best they could do was some BS paperwork which is not worthy of 5 years in prison. Rest assured, when the government needs to cover its ass, it will steamroll right over you. We've seen it time and time again, I'm honestly disappointed that so many here seem to have forgotten that. |
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Quoted: The ATF cited violations dating to 2000, including failure to keep a weapons inventory, failure to conduct background checks on at least 25 purchasers and failure to report a multiple-handgun sale. Let's not forget this. The rules are the rules, like 'em or not. "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." Looks like the BATFE are the ones who have decided to not follow the rules. |
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That being said....I don't trust or care for the BATFE. No sir...I don't trust 'em. . And yet the hordes are rushing to throw Shawn under the bus without a second thought about the BATFE and their methods and tactics. TRG Well it appears they were engaged in illegal sales. What I want to know is when did they know the details of why the raid was conducted. I have a major problem with them if they knew all along and led the site on for two years. Good point. To the TRG and others - they plead guilty. Bitch about the ATF all you want, but these guys admitted fault. And while 90% of the charges were dismissed, that could be part of the deal with the guilty plea. That's how plea bargains work. Plead to this, we'll dismiss that. |
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Hmmm. Am I the only person who felt like I was lead to believe that CavArms had no idea what the ATF was hunting for and were never charged with anything even after all this time? It seems CavArms knew from day one about those 40 guns from his house.... I bet there are going to be some pissed off folks who donated to their defense fund. Above. I am among you, but I withhold judgement until I hear what CavArms has to say about all this  I think you might be waiting for a while, Ed. |