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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:12:12 PM EDT
[#1]
N/M all covered on the first page.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:12:50 PM EDT
[#2]
It bothers me when I hear that we "lost" that war.
We never lost a battle and at the end had a peace treaty signed. How is that not a win? Troops came home and then the North violated the treaty and invaded. Fuck that, it's not our problem at that point. Congress failed not the troops. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:17:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really need to ask why America was there anyway. If America hadn't fucked over Ho-Che-Minh after the end of WWII it would have been a very different story. The "dominos" theory was garbage, but is was enough excuse to wind up the military contractors, but they weren't selling enough just trying to supply the AVRN who were not that keen on fighting anyway. Did you learn about “Ho-Che-Minh” getting fucked over by the US in school? I’m guessing you also learned that Laos and Cambodia didn’t fall to Communism too. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:18:23 PM EDT
[#4]
 Britain's Vietnam War |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:20:19 PM EDT
[#5]
I dabbled in pacifism once. Not in 'Nam of course. That's all water under the bridge.
The man in the black pajamas. A worthy fuckin' adversary. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:21:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny part of all this? As an American, you'll be treated better in Hanoi than in Ho Chi Min city (Old Saigon). I've got USMC tattoos, and in Hanoi, half the time In a bar, I'd get free drinks, just to talk with the locals. Vietnamese are our friends, go figure, they hate China more than the U.S. There are a few die hard commies still there, but their hatred for the Chinese overrides that. I don't know I've always been treated very good in Saigon, but you are correct about them hating the Chinese more than anyone else. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:22:27 PM EDT
[#7]
Cause peole bought into the bullshit that our new climate czar shoveled to them.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:23:24 PM EDT
[#8]
I didnt know you wanted to be part of the conversation Mr. Helper.
One of the best lines of the movie. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:25:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Clarified
Quote HistoryQuoted: We pulled the VAST majority of our troops out of S. Vietnam in Spring 1973. The troops left were a few trainers, maintainers & embassy guards. The South Vietnamese Government Collapsed in 1975 when in Congress cut off their support Democrats aka communist sympathizers lies & forbade use of US Air Power (Both promised to the South Vietnamese in the American Withdrawal & "Peace Agreement" with North Vietnam. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:27:12 PM EDT
[#10]
You're perfect.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:27:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Nixon was impeached, and the "Watergate Congress" wanted out of the war at any cost.
The '75 invasion of the South could have ended the same as the '73 invasion, with US air and material support. ARVN did most of the ground fighting in '73. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:30:37 PM EDT
[#12]
The VNAF was the fourth largest Air Force in the world at the time. Like stated before fuel and munitions were tough to come by Leaving most on the ground.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:30:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. The French were going to lose. They also did not help us a few short years later. We should have given Vietnam independence when we could have right after WW2. We sided with the commies and facist till its not in our interest. Then we sided with China right after Vietnam with Vietnamese troops fighting them. Vietnam is on its way to being our ally again. And most of Europe is a socialist shit hole. At the end of WW2 the Brits were running a fight against the commies using Japanese WW2 troops, and were kicking ass. I don't recall the poltical reasons, but that was stopped for some stupid reason. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:33:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? 
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:33:53 PM EDT
[#15]
When you kill 47k Americans because you don't have the balls to use nukes, people get mad.
Could have vaporized Hanoi and called it a day, yet we dragged our boys through a shit hole for years. You either fight a war or you don't, no way would we have ever changed the minds of the North Koreans. Drop the nuke, offer peace agreement and move on. Luckily our death toll wasn't as high in Afghanistan and hopefully it doesn't have the same results. I wasn't in Vietnam, but I know the soldiers gave their best even though the polititions fumbled the ball. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:33:58 PM EDT
[#16]
In 73 we turned it over to South Vietnam and promised to supply their military and with a deal with the north not to invade. In 75 congress (D's) refused to fund our agreement, the north recognized the weakness and invaded.
 Yes Democrats are treacherous and care nothing about others lives. They have been that way sense the beginning of the country.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:35:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Communist sympathizers, fifth column.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:38:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? What the fuck is wrong with you? If your serious , go fuck your self with a fork. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:39:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you do when you own ally the ARVN werent in the fight for the most part, staffed by corrupt officers and generally more interested in getting paid then doing anything. They had huge amounts of troops on paper only collecting payements for corrupt commanders. Why should only the Americans do the fight if the people who live there wont? I get many did fight and were great allies but hey.. they needed to do more. ARVN kicked ass with US air support in '73. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:39:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Dems are backstabbing twats.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:40:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? Are those shitty soldiers name on the wall too |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:41:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We Didn't because we withdrew all or most of our military forces by 1973. We evacuated our embassy in 1975 as North Vietnamese Tanks rolled into town. Because the Dems wouldn't allow financial aid that was promised to S. Vietnam, as part of the peace agreement, to be delivered. They voted to cut them off. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:41:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Watch "Vietnam in HD" and Ken Burns "The Vietnam War". Burns is good, but also slanted. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:42:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Watch "Vietnam in HD" and Ken Burns "The Vietnam War". Do you mean it was racism? |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:44:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It became a popularity contest and he hawks lost. the Dems cranked up the Vietnam war. Then bailed on them after a REpublican found a way to get the troops out and a peace agreement was made. Commie-ism at home was allowed to flourish. See the Carter years. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:45:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:47:42 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LBJ was a pacifistic, he personally lost the war for the US, and by the time Nixon came along, the war was already lost. Nothing about LBJ was pacifistic. He escalated the war after JFK's attempts to withdraw. He benefited by having investments in war material production industries. He had his own for-hire-assassin for domestic competition and to take care of those who were a thorn in his side. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:49:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nixon started it back before he resigned. He made a bunch of promises to South Vietnam he had no intentions on keeping. His party platform was to withdraw troops from Vietnam. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:51:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The “free press” won Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It became a popularity contest and he hawks lost. The “free press” won One worlder Uncle Kronkite said it was over. Everybody trusted Walter. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 6:54:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? You know this how again ? Kinda lame to just throw that shit out there , which branch were you in ? |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:00:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is she right? |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:02:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because carrying the French’s water was dumb to begin with. Bingo! How many times has the U.S.A. been sucked into frenchies bullshit only to have frenchy drop and run? How many Trooper's have been lost covering frenchy ass? The french are only good at one thing, wait what is it? |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:04:39 PM EDT
[#33]
The commies in USA and the Western World won the Vietnam war for the commies in Vietnam.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:06:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This . Once I discovered the OSS helped Ho , He went to France after the war and was ignored when asking for independence so he went to the Russians and Chinese instead. Ho Chi Minh, Osama, Noriega, Saddam all have one thing in common . That's bullshit. Saddam's Iraq was ALWAYS a Soviet client state. We provided some help in the Iran-Iraq War in the form of satellite intel, but we also provided help to Iran in the form of TOW missiles. Saddam never was "our guy". We did attempt to flip Iraq in the 80s (IMO based upon flipping Egypt earlier), and it the process allowed them to purchase duel-use items. None of this makes Saddam "our guy" in any sense. Likewise, Osama was not our guy, either. We provided aid for the domestic Afgan fighters to fight the Soviets, not outsiders like Osama's Arabs. The handling of things in-country was by the Pakis, so who knows what they did, but our intent and our actions were not to support the Arabs there. Ho was a commie from the beginning. We did provide aid to him fighting the Japanese. For that matter we supported the Soviets and Chinese commies as well. OSS leaned left just as the later CIA did, probably more so. Noriega was part of the strong man right wing government in Panama. Like often happens in places like that, we worked with him because he was the local anticommunist we had to partner with, not because we chose him. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:07:09 PM EDT
[#35]
There wasn't any more profit to be made for the Legislators and the Military Industrial Complex.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:18:02 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:34:51 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Burns is good, but also slanted. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Watch "Vietnam in HD" and Ken Burns "The Vietnam War". Burns is good, but also slanted. @DonS +1 Of course. I have to pause the Burns video every 10 minutes to educate my son on leftist propaganda. But it’s still very good. I’m about 1/2 way through. I’ll have to get the Vietnam in HD. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 7:43:09 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1 Of course. I have to pause the Burns video every 10 minutes to educate my son on leftist propaganda. But it’s still very good. I’m about 1/2 way through. I’ll have to get the Vietnam in HD. My younger son is into history, he was watching the Burns Vietnam thing and I explained some of the one-sided nature of what they presented. I actually want him to learn how to spotthat stuff. My older son isn't as much into history. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:11:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. The French were going to lose. They also did not help us a few short years later. We should have given Vietnam independence when we could have right after WW2. We sided with the commies and facist till its not in our interest. Then we sided with China right after Vietnam with Vietnamese troops fighting them. Vietnam is on its way to being our ally again. And most of Europe is a socialist shit hole. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Claims that are borne of ignorance. Ho Chi Minh was a founding member of the French Communist Party two decades before WWII even began. He was just trying to appeal to us in language we might go for because he wanted help for his cause. He was a communist, and helping him take all of Vietnam would have just put more people under the thumb of communism more quickly. If anything, we should have provided the air power and other assistance the French asked for that could have turned the tide in their war and obviate any reason for us to send ground troops later on. And much of that part of Asia did fall to communism, not just Vietnam. Making this all about the "military-industrial complex" is just silly. We had no rightful authority to give an ally's territory away, and it would have been an act of war. Ho was just a communist trying to use us to serve his own ideological ends, hoping for useful idiots that would buy his BS hook, line, and sinker (and certainly many Americans have fallen for the act, even today). Communists love useful idiots. The French loss was not necessarily inevitable, but Congress balked at approving things like air power to attack the Viet Minh at a crucial moment. Also, I don't think our siding with communists necessarily was to our benefit, or for the best in a more global sense, in retrospect. We had no good reason to side with Ho, and plenty not to, and all supporting him would have done was make the region communist more quickly and at minimum seriously pissed off and lost us an ally. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:14:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The VNAF was the fourth largest Air Force in the world at the time. Like stated before fuel and munitions were tough to come by Leaving most on the ground. The ones that did get aloft did some incredible work, though, including evacuating people and also fighting to keep the enemy at bay as long as possible so more could escape (like the guys who fought to keep the airport from falling, or the Chinook pilot who got a bunch of people into the Kirk before ditching in the water). Some of those guys showed incredible valor, and like many heroes of fallen countries, are little remembered for it and don't get the recognition they deserve. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:17:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It bothers me when I hear that we "lost" that war. We never lost a battle and at the end had a peace treaty signed. How is that not a win? Troops came home and then the North violated the treaty and invaded. Fuck that, it's not our problem at that point. Congress failed not the troops. The North re-invaded the South in ‘75.  Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City. 58,220 American boys died for NOTHING in a war they shouldn’t have been in. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:24:07 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The North re-invaded the South in ‘75. Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City. 58,220 American boys died for NOTHING for a war we shouldn’t have been in. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It bothers me when I hear that we "lost" that war. We never lost a battle and at the end had a peace treaty signed. How is that not a win? Troops came home and then the North violated the treaty and invaded. Fuck that, it's not our problem at that point. Congress failed not the troops. The North re-invaded the South in ‘75. Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City. 58,220 American boys died for NOTHING for a war we shouldn’t have been in. Only because the Left made it so that we could not act and actively cut off our ally from supplies. The North's attempt would have likely failed if it weren't for that, although if the political winds were different, I wonder if they would have even attempted it that year. Maybe they would have done it with Carter at the helm. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:28:44 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm a lover, not a fighter
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:33:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? Congratulations. I'll take my first ever time out for this. Go fuck yourself asshole. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:33:17 PM EDT
[#45]
The real question is why the US sent 58,220 of America's best to die in a God-forsaken country half way around the globe. A country that was not especially interested in being saved from the communist horde to the north.
I was all for killing communists (and I still am) but I always thought that we should start here in the US rather than a swamp in Southeast Asia. The only way to win a war (i.e., beat the enemy to the point where he will NEVER come back at you) is to kill the enemy until he is in complete submission without regard to civilians and women and children. Since the end of WW II the US has been unwilling to do so and we have not "won" a war since 1945. Signing a negotiated truce is NOT winning. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:37:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We had no rightful authority to give an ally's territory away, and it would have been an act of war. Ho was just a communist trying to use us to serve his own ideological ends, hoping for useful idiots that would buy his BS hook, line, and sinker (and certainly many Americans have fallen for the act, even today). Communists love useful idiots. The French loss was not necessarily inevitable, but Congress balked at approving things like air power to attack the Viet Minh at a crucial moment. Also, I don't think our siding with communists necessarily was to our benefit, or for the best in a more global sense, in retrospect. We had no good reason to side with Ho, and plenty not to, and all supporting him would have done was make the region communist more quickly and at minimum seriously pissed off and lost us an ally. From what I understand OSS both leaned left, and also lacked competence (at least compared with other intel agencies, like the Brits, Russians, etc.). Much like the CIA that replaced it. I don't think we had a sound foundation for working our way through these various revolutions and independence movements. Where we prevailed, like in Chile with Pinochet was probably more due to local competence than that of US intelligence. My point is that we can look back at what happened and discuss what we think should happen, but it is another matter what those in our intel agencies at the time understood, and what they could actually accomplish. Few of these things played out according to some American plan. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:42:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The real question is why the US sent 58,220 of America's to die in a God-forsaken country half way around the globe. A country that was not especially interested in being saved from the communist horde to the north. I was all for killing communists (and I still am) but I always thought that we should start here in the US rather than a swamp in Southeast Asia. The only way to win a war (i.e., beat the enemy to the point where he will NEVER come back at you) is to kill the enemy until he is in complete submission without regard to civilians and women and children. Since the end of WW II the US has been unwilling to do so and we have not "won" a war since 1945. Signing a negotiated truce is NOT winning. The fundamental problem we faced in Vietnam was that the source of the threat, North Vietnam, was off limits to invasion. No matter how bad we defeated them, they were only a few graduating classes of high school students away from the ability to launch another invasion. Under LBJ things were particularly bad due to micromanaging the war effort. Nixon/Abrams came as close as possible to winning under the circumstances. Of course, our self imposed restriction was based upon the Korean War, and concern invasion would cause China to become directly involved. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:47:30 PM EDT
[#48]
We would have won if the Fighter pilots would have not relied on their A2A missles so much and had better skills at dog fighting.
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Posted: 2/8/2021 8:53:31 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My younger son is into history, he was watching the Burns Vietnam thing and I explained some of the one-sided nature of what they presented. I actually want him to learn how to spotthat stuff. My older son isn't as much into history. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: +1 Of course. I have to pause the Burns video every 10 minutes to educate my son on leftist propaganda. But it’s still very good. I’m about 1/2 way through. I’ll have to get the Vietnam in HD. My younger son is into history, he was watching the Burns Vietnam thing and I explained some of the one-sided nature of what they presented. I actually want him to learn how to spotthat stuff. My older son isn't as much into history. @DonS That’s exactly my situation. I had my son talk to my father who grew up in communist Hungary, and when I’ve gone through the documentaries, I will have him talk to my sensei who is a Vietnam combat veteran. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:00:47 PM EDT
[#50]
From my understanding, Nixon bombed the snot out of NV, crippling the NVA. And the Tet Offensive was a last ditch attempt to break out, like the battle of the bulge, but resulted in a devastating defeat for the Vietcong. After which, NV knew they were defeated but also knew the US public was sick of war and wouldn’t go on the offensive, so they brokered a peace deal like what North Korea did. At this point the US had basically won the war by preventing the communist takeover of SV.
Nixon withdrew our troops with the promise that we would return to defend SV if NV attacked again. But then he was forced to resign and we had a weak Ford and full D Congress. NV bet the US would abandon SV, so after they rebuilt their forces, 3 years later they invaded SV again and their bet paid off. Ford and the D’s turned their back on SV, allowing them to be conquered. |
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