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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:04:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We would have won if the Fighter pilots would have not relied on their A2A missles so much and had better skills at dog fighting. Nixon/Abrams gave us as much victory as possible within the constraint of limited action against North Vietnam. Our key problem was that the source of the problem was essentially off limits except for some bombing with restrictive ROE. The air to air war would have had better stats for us if things were different, but it didn't matter much in the final result. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:11:05 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's bullshit. Saddam's Iraq was ALWAYS a Soviet client state. We provided some help in the Iran-Iraq War in the form of satellite intel, but we also provided help to Iran in the form of TOW missiles. Saddam never was "our guy". We did attempt to flip Iraq in the 80s (IMO based upon flipping Egypt earlier), and it the process allowed them to purchase duel-use items. None of this makes Saddam "our guy" in any sense. Likewise, Osama was not our guy, either. We provided aid for the domestic Afgan fighters to fight the Soviets, not outsiders like Osama's Arabs. The handling of things in-country was by the Pakis, so who knows what they did, but our intent and our actions were not to support the Arabs there. Ho was a commie from the beginning. We did provide aid to him fighting the Japanese. For that matter we supported the Soviets and Chinese commies as well. OSS leaned left just as the later CIA did, probably more so. Noriega was part of the strong man right wing government in Panama. Like often happens in places like that, we worked with him because he was the local anticommunist we had to partner with, not because we chose him. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This . Once I discovered the OSS helped Ho , He went to France after the war and was ignored when asking for independence so he went to the Russians and Chinese instead. Ho Chi Minh, Osama, Noriega, Saddam all have one thing in common . That's bullshit. Saddam's Iraq was ALWAYS a Soviet client state. We provided some help in the Iran-Iraq War in the form of satellite intel, but we also provided help to Iran in the form of TOW missiles. Saddam never was "our guy". We did attempt to flip Iraq in the 80s (IMO based upon flipping Egypt earlier), and it the process allowed them to purchase duel-use items. None of this makes Saddam "our guy" in any sense. Likewise, Osama was not our guy, either. We provided aid for the domestic Afgan fighters to fight the Soviets, not outsiders like Osama's Arabs. The handling of things in-country was by the Pakis, so who knows what they did, but our intent and our actions were not to support the Arabs there. Ho was a commie from the beginning. We did provide aid to him fighting the Japanese. For that matter we supported the Soviets and Chinese commies as well. OSS leaned left just as the later CIA did, probably more so. Noriega was part of the strong man right wing government in Panama. Like often happens in places like that, we worked with him because he was the local anticommunist we had to partner with, not because we chose him. Thank you for saving me the typing. The outright lies drive me crazy. I am never sure if the person is just ignorant or intentionally lying. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:13:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From my understanding, Nixon bombed the snot out of NV, crippling the NVA. And the Tet Offensive was a last ditch attempt to break out, like the battle of the bulge, but resulted in a devastating defeat for the Vietcong. After which, NV knew they were defeated but also knew the US public was sick of war and wouldn’t go on the offensive, so they brokered a peace deal like what North Korea did. At this point the US had basically won the war by preventing the communist takeover of SV. Nixon withdrew our troops with the promise that we would return to defend SV if NV attacked again. But then he was forced to resign and we had a weak Ford and full D Congress. NV bet the US would abandon SV, so after they rebuilt their forces, 3 years later they invaded SV again and their bet paid off. Ford and the D’s turned their back on SV, allowing them to be conquered. IIRC, Ford was livid that he could not intervene, and even cussed about members of Congress in front of other people. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:22:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? You insult my friends, family and fellow soldiers. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:26:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We Didn't because we withdrew all or most of our military forces by 1973. We evacuated our embassy in 1975 as North Vietnamese Tanks rolled into town. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:28:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Years of public pressure to end our involvement had politicians seeking some way to pull out while saving our national public face and without leaving the impression that we were cutting and running
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:30:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Sam was great
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:31:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This . Once I discovered the OSS helped Ho , He went to France after the war and was ignored when asking for independence so he went to the Russians and Chinese instead. Ho Chi Minh, Osama, Noriega, Saddam all have one thing in common . I’m saving the pain of quoting both of your globs of ignorance but ??????? Ho Chi Minh did not suddenly become a Communist in 1945,this is complete bullshit that gets repeated by simpletons. I’m a little stuck on when the French did not help you a few years later. What utter nonsense are you talking about? France sent troops to Korea while they were also neck deep in Indochina. It was the United States who was the shitty ally for not providing the assistance at Dien Bien Phu and then fucking over France,the UK and Israel in 1956. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:34:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Years of public pressure to end our involvement had politicians seeking some way to pull out while saving our national public face and without leaving the impression that we were cutting and running In the end the Watergate Congress cut support, since they could. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:35:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m saving the pain of quoting both of your globs of ignorance but ??????? Ho Chi Minh did not suddenly become a Communist in 1945,this is complete bullshit that gets repeated by simpletons. I’m a little stuck on when the French did not help you a few years later. What utter nonsense are you talking about? France sent troops to Korea while they were also neck deep in Indochina. It was the United States who was the shitty ally for not providing the assistance at Dien Bien Phu and then fucking over France,the UK and Israel in 1956. Suez was one of the worst things the Eisenhower Administration did on the foreign policy front. We are still feeling the impact of that today and will for a long time to come. The rapid decolonization and the disaster that followed was a direct outcome of the impact the U.S. had during the Suez Crisis. Of course, American anticolonialism, as stupid as it is and was for most of our history, has always led to poor foreign policies. I find it hard to think of things that actually benefitted from our anticolonialism. It's easy to find harms, though. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:37:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for saving me the typing. The outright lies drive me crazy. I am never sure if the person is just ignorant or intentionally lying. It is standard left wing anti-American crap. Also parroted by some on the right. Any tie or possible tie we have with someone who ended up a "bad guy" becomes evidence of our guilt. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:38:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Suez was one of the worst things the Eisenhower Administration did on the foreign policy front. We are still feeling the impact of that today and will for a long time to come. The rapid decolonization and the disaster that followed was a direct outcome of the impact the U.S. had during the Suez Crisis. Of course, American anticolonialism, as stupid as it is and was for most of our history, has always led to poor foreign policies. I find it hard to think of things that actually benefitted from our anticolonialism. It's easy to find harms, though. Also, he stopped our support for Batista, allowing Castro to step in with minimal fighting. Castro had been up in the hills with a few hundred men. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 9:50:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m saving the pain of quoting both of your globs of ignorance but ??????? Ho Chi Minh did not suddenly become a Communist in 1945,this is complete bullshit that gets repeated by simpletons. I’m a little stuck on when the French did not help you a few years later. What utter nonsense are you talking about? France sent troops to Korea while they were also neck deep in Indochina. It was the United States who was the shitty ally for not providing the assistance at Dien Bien Phu and then fucking over France,the UK and Israel in 1956. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This . Once I discovered the OSS helped Ho , He went to France after the war and was ignored when asking for independence so he went to the Russians and Chinese instead. Ho Chi Minh, Osama, Noriega, Saddam all have one thing in common . I’m saving the pain of quoting both of your globs of ignorance but ??????? Ho Chi Minh did not suddenly become a Communist in 1945,this is complete bullshit that gets repeated by simpletons. I’m a little stuck on when the French did not help you a few years later. What utter nonsense are you talking about? France sent troops to Korea while they were also neck deep in Indochina. It was the United States who was the shitty ally for not providing the assistance at Dien Bien Phu and then fucking over France,the UK and Israel in 1956. The US fucked over France? It was Charles de Gaulle who threatened the United States with turning to Russia if we didn't "help" France regain their foothold on Indochina. Secondly, it was France who promised to help thwart the purported Communist aggression in Europe. Read a few books and you'll likely discover that United States spent millions to render material aid to France during their fight against the Viet Minh. Don't forget that American pilots died dropping supplies and parachutists over DBP. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:04:37 PM EDT
[#14]
The famous photo of a Huey on the rooftop of the Embassy was actually an Air America bird at the roof of an apartment building.
The helicopters seen on film pushed into the sea from a carrier deck were South Vietnamese, and this was to clear the decks for the landing of a Cessna O-1 piloted by Major Buang-Ly, with his wife and 5 children aboard. He flew out to sea in the hopes he would find an American ship to land upon. He dropped a note on the carrier, the USS Midway. Captain ordered the decks cleared and the Major made a perfect landing near the bridge. His family are proud American citizens now.  Major Buang-Ly, his wife, five children, and his big brass balls...  Major Buang's Bird Dog landing on the USS Midway (29 April 1975) |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:07:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are * soldiers? Don't forget to spit on them and call them baby-killers too. 
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:08:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The famous photo of a Huey on the rooftop of the Embassy was actually an Air America bird at the roof of an apartment building. The helicopters seen on film pushed into the sea from a carrier deck were South Vietnamese, and this was to clear the decks for the landing of a Cessna O-1 piloted by Major Buang-Ly, with his wife and 5 children aboard. He flew out to sea in the hopes he would find an American ship to land upon. He dropped a note on the carrier, the USS Midway. Captain ordered the decks cleared and the Major made a perfect landing near the bridge. His family are proud American citizens now. Major Buang-Ly, his wife, five children, and big brass balls... That wasn't an apartment. It was a CIA building which is why the AA helo was making exfil trips. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:09:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is standard left wing anti-American crap. Also parroted by some on the right. Any tie or possible tie we have with someone who ended up a "bad guy" becomes evidence of our guilt. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thank you for saving me the typing. The outright lies drive me crazy. I am never sure if the person is just ignorant or intentionally lying. It is standard left wing anti-American crap. Also parroted by some on the right. Any tie or possible tie we have with someone who ended up a "bad guy" becomes evidence of our guilt. It's especially popular with the anti-war, isolationist ("non-interventionist", LOL), and nationalist parts of the Right. It comes from the Left, but it says things they want to believe to prove their points. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:10:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also, he stopped our support for Batista, allowing Castro to step in with minimal fighting. Castro had been up in the hills with a few hundred men. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Suez was one of the worst things the Eisenhower Administration did on the foreign policy front. We are still feeling the impact of that today and will for a long time to come. The rapid decolonization and the disaster that followed was a direct outcome of the impact the U.S. had during the Suez Crisis. Of course, American anticolonialism, as stupid as it is and was for most of our history, has always led to poor foreign policies. I find it hard to think of things that actually benefitted from our anticolonialism. It's easy to find harms, though. Also, he stopped our support for Batista, allowing Castro to step in with minimal fighting. Castro had been up in the hills with a few hundred men. All in all, Ike was not a very good President. Pretty shitty in the foreign policy realm, although Congress played a role there, too. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:13:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The US fucked over France? It was Charles de Gaulle who threatened the United States with turning to Russia if we didn't "help" France regain their foothold on Indochina. Secondly, it was France who promised to help thwart the purported Communist aggression in Europe. Read a few books and you'll likely discover that United States spent millions to render material aid to France during their fight against the Viet Minh. Don't forget that American pilots died dropping supplies and parachutists over DBP. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This . Once I discovered the OSS helped Ho , He went to France after the war and was ignored when asking for independence so he went to the Russians and Chinese instead. Ho Chi Minh, Osama, Noriega, Saddam all have one thing in common . I’m saving the pain of quoting both of your globs of ignorance but ??????? Ho Chi Minh did not suddenly become a Communist in 1945,this is complete bullshit that gets repeated by simpletons. I’m a little stuck on when the French did not help you a few years later. What utter nonsense are you talking about? France sent troops to Korea while they were also neck deep in Indochina. It was the United States who was the shitty ally for not providing the assistance at Dien Bien Phu and then fucking over France,the UK and Israel in 1956. The US fucked over France? It was Charles de Gaulle who threatened the United States with turning to Russia if we didn't "help" France regain their foothold on Indochina. Secondly, it was France who promised to help thwart the purported Communist aggression in Europe. Read a few books and you'll likely discover that United States spent millions to render material aid to France during their fight against the Viet Minh. Don't forget that American pilots died dropping supplies and parachutists over DBP. The U.S. pretty much fucked over much of the world for a long time to come at Suez, not just France (and notice that outofbattery didn't just list France there). Simply allowing for bombers that were ready to go to be used to attack the communists besieging Dien Bien Phu and their supply lines would likely have had a huge impact on the outcome there. If the communists had failed at Dien Bien Phu, there's a decent chance that it would have broken them, or at least massively set them back. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:14:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Somebody wouldn't let us win
 Rambo First Blood: Nothing is Over! Speech |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:14:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The famous photo of a Huey on the rooftop of the Embassy was actually an Air America bird at the roof of an apartment building. The helicopters seen on film pushed into the sea from a carrier deck were South Vietnamese, and this was to clear the decks for the landing of a Cessna O-1 piloted by Major Buang-Ly, with his wife and 5 children aboard. He flew out to sea in the hopes he would find an American ship to land upon. He dropped a note on the carrier, the USS Midway. Captain ordered the decks cleared and the Major made a perfect landing near the bridge. His family are proud American citizens now. Major Buang-Ly, his wife, five children, and big brass balls... My uncle was part of the MarDet on the Midway that day. He has pictures of it and a photo of the note in his album from that deployment. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 10:36:09 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The U.S. pretty much fucked over much of the world for a long time to come at Suez, not just France (and notice that outofbattery didn't just list France there). Simply allowing for bombers that were ready to go to be used to attack the communists besieging Dien Bien Phu and their supply lines would likely have had a huge impact on the outcome there. If the communists had failed at Dien Bien Phu, there's a decent chance that it would have broken them, or at least massively set them back. Yeah, the bombers were ready, but the French categorically misrepresented their pilot/personnel census to Americans. Kinda alludes to the whole "I won't bring steaks since you're telling me you have them already", no? And even if the French had relied on USAF/FEAF that wouldn't have mattered as they could barely put a dent in Communist ground forces in Korea. Not to mention the weather (cloud coverage) was abysmal during the siege. They fucked up. They underestimated the enemy and paid dearly for it. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 11:55:50 PM EDT
[#23]
What did the U.S. learn about getting involved in a land war in Asia?
“Never get out of the boat. Absolutely goddamn right. Unless you’re going all the way.” |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:03:47 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? The coward keyboard warrior. Yeah. There's some baby-boomers that would absolutely love to give you their personal testimony of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:07:36 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? Yeah, that must be it, especially the 50,000+ that lost their lives to demonstrate the resolve of the US to prevent the loss of SEA to the chicoms. FYI, the majority of shitty soldiers were volunteers. smh  |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:08:05 AM EDT
[#26]
The public realized we had been lied to. There was NO Gulf of Tonkin attack on our navy. The Domino Theory was bull shit. Only the MIC and CIA wanted the war to continue. Just like the middle East, today.
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:10:34 AM EDT
[#27]
Spent a lot of time, money, effort, and lives to stop the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. Then let it spread to the US.
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:17:03 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The insurgency was tapped out by 1973. That’s why NVA resorted to a conventional armored invasion in 1975. Arab Oil embargo hit ARVN hard, while NVA got their oil from Russia. US Congress stepped in a blocked Ford from assisting the defense of South Vietnam (was we were obligated to as members of SEATO), and thus South Vietnam fell. The VC were wiped out in Tet '68 and weren't a significant force after that. The Cambodian incursion in '70 took out COSVN. LAM SON 719 killed off the remaining best of the ARVN in '71. We pushed the NVA shit in during the '72 Easter Offensive, but due to the Paris Peace Accords, the NVA were allowed to keep the territory they gained in South Vietnam. Rolling Thunder 2 could have brought North Vietnam to it's knees. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:38:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's bullshit. Saddam's Iraq was ALWAYS a Soviet client state. We provided some help in the Iran-Iraq War in the form of satellite intel, but we also provided help to Iran in the form of TOW missiles. Saddam never was "our guy". We did attempt to flip Iraq in the 80s (IMO based upon flipping Egypt earlier), and it the process allowed them to purchase duel-use items. None of this makes Saddam "our guy" in any sense. Likewise, Osama was not our guy, either. We provided aid for the domestic Afgan fighters to fight the Soviets, not outsiders like Osama's Arabs. The handling of things in-country was by the Pakis, so who knows what they did, but our intent and our actions were not to support the Arabs there. Ho was a commie from the beginning. We did provide aid to him fighting the Japanese. For that matter we supported the Soviets and Chinese commies as well. OSS leaned left just as the later CIA did, probably more so. Noriega was part of the strong man right wing government in Panama. Like often happens in places like that, we worked with him because he was the local anticommunist we had to partner with, not because we chose him. And as for Iraq is was way more than Intel. Quick wiki Quote for you . U.S. government support for Iraq was not a secret and was frequently discussed in open sessions of the Senate and House of Representatives. On June 9, 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline that the "Reagan/Bush administrations permittedand frequently encouragedthe flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq."[4] |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:46:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's bullshit. Saddam's Iraq was ALWAYS a Soviet client state. We provided some help in the Iran-Iraq War in the form of satellite intel, but we also provided help to Iran in the form of TOW missiles. Saddam never was "our guy". We did attempt to flip Iraq in the 80s (IMO based upon flipping Egypt earlier), and it the process allowed them to purchase duel-use items. None of this makes Saddam "our guy" in any sense. Likewise, Osama was not our guy, either. We provided aid for the domestic Afgan fighters to fight the Soviets, not outsiders like Osama's Arabs. The handling of things in-country was by the Pakis, so who knows what they did, but our intent and our actions were not to support the Arabs there. Ho was a commie from the beginning. We did provide aid to him fighting the Japanese. For that matter we supported the Soviets and Chinese commies as well. OSS leaned left just as the later CIA did, probably more so. Noriega was part of the strong man right wing government in Panama. Like often happens in places like that, we worked with him because he was the local anticommunist we had to partner with, not because we chose him. "One example of this "friendly" policy was the continued attendance of Iraqi students at U.S. military schools even after the 1958 coup, a practice that persisted through worsening relations until at least February 1963.6 Nevertheless, U.S. officials were at least aware of, if not complicit in, an October 1959 plot against Qasim that included twenty-two- year-old Saddam Hussein among the potential assassin" https://media.defense.gov/2015/Mar/10/2001329842/-1/-1/0/US%20Relations%20with%20Iraq.pdf |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 12:48:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers?
Upman, is that you? |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 1:05:13 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We had no rightful authority to give an ally's territory away, and it would have been an act of war. Ho was just a communist trying to use us to serve his own ideological ends, hoping for useful idiots that would buy his BS hook, line, and sinker (and certainly many Americans have fallen for the act, even today). Communists love useful idiots. The French loss was not necessarily inevitable, but Congress balked at approving things like air power to attack the Viet Minh at a crucial moment. Also, I don't think our siding with communists necessarily was to our benefit, or for the best in a more global sense, in retrospect. We had no good reason to side with Ho, and plenty not to, and all supporting him would have done was make the region communist more quickly and at minimum seriously pissed off and lost us an ally. defeated the Japanese. We had every right to say they could have independence and thats what Roosevelt wanted to do. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 1:14:12 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We should go back and finish what we started. 
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Posted: 2/9/2021 1:14:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm saving the pain of quoting both of your globs of ignorance but Ho Chi Minh did not suddenly become a Communist in 1945,this is complete bullshit that gets repeated by simpletons. I'm a little stuck on when the French did not help you a few years later. What utter nonsense are you talking about? France sent troops to Korea while they were also neck deep in Indochina. It was the United States who was the shitty ally for not providing the assistance at Dien Bien Phu and then fucking over France,the UK and Israel in 1956. And your last sentence. We always are cleaning up other peoples messes as well as our own.And the justifications are bullshit and we flip the justifications soon after. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 1:16:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is standard left wing anti-American crap. Also parroted by some on the right. Any tie or possible tie we have with someone who ended up a "bad guy" becomes evidence of our guilt. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 1:16:53 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The US fucked over France? It was Charles de Gaulle who threatened the United States with turning to Russia if we didn't "help" France regain their foothold on Indochina. Secondly, it was France who promised to help thwart the purported Communist aggression in Europe. Read a few books and you'll likely discover that United States spent millions to render material aid to France during their fight against the Viet Minh. Don't forget that American pilots died dropping supplies and parachutists over DBP. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 9:45:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Communist sympathizers, fifth column. Amazing how history repeats itself over and over again. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 9:50:08 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What the fuck is wrong with you? If you're serious, go fuck yourself with a fork. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Because baby boomers are shitty soldiers? What the fuck is wrong with you? If you're serious, go fuck yourself with a fork. Like all nice places that are discovered by the left and eventually turned into a steaming shithole, GD attracts the worst of society like flies to shit. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 10:11:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Classic Sam. |
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