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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:30:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 604 cockpit layout https://www.execflyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/bombardier-challenger-604-cockpit.jpg From my old Comair pilots..... "It's possible to unlatch those red latches, but you have to hold those latches down while bringing the throttles back..." |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:34:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Run out of fuel. Not with that fire and massive smoke column. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:35:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot longer than they had at that altitude. Agreed. We had issues testing it on a CRJ and he did not like the cross bleed or single engine operation for taxiing. We had a nice trainer that wanted to try "his way" of testing in air restarts and would not accept the longer re-start time. He said the lengthy time put the entire aircraft at risk and there should be an emergency procedure and method to get a restart done in a faster time frame outside of the established procedures. He wanted to teach hot starts as a procedure without any understandings of the damage and not allow cross bleed starts. He killed himself and 4 people about 2 years after due to his arrogance. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:36:27 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot longer than they had at that altitude. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How long does a re-light take if that were to happen? A lot longer than they had at that altitude. I’m guessing engines on the 604 are airstart. So even if they had a bit more altitude they wouldn’t have had the airspeed for a windmill start or a running apu for a bleed start. And to answer Wicks question, it takes almost a minute to start an engine on the jet I fly which uses a starter/generator. They had no time. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:38:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn! That’s one of East Shores Jets. They got smacked by the FAA a few years back for unauthorized operations.  My buddy flies Challenger 350s for NetJets. Glad it wasn't him. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:43:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m guessing engines on the 604 are airstart. So even if they had a bit more altitude they wouldn’t have had the airspeed for a windmill start or a running apu for a bleed start. And to answer Wicks question, it takes almost a minute to start an engine on the jet I fly which uses a starter/generator. They had no time. APU/leave #2 running/airstart cart. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:47:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From my old Comair pilots..... "It's possible to unlatch those red latches, but you have to hold those latches down while bringing the throttles back..." The scenario is the pilot reaching across to interact with the flaps while the copilot throttles down. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:47:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure if there would be a reaction. ANFO (ammonium nitrate fuel oil) explosives are usually made with pelletized AN fertilizer which has a much higher level of AN than DEF. The mixture of AN and fuel oil is stable until an initiator like a blasting cap is used to set it off. ETA: a bit of research indicates that Urea, the nitrogen component in DEF, is somewhat chemically different than the AN in fertilizer. Wish I had paid more attention to chemistry stuff in HS but maybe better that I didn't. Correct, DEF does not contain Ammonium Nitrate. It is water and Urea. Urea is essentially the same stuff in Urine and is chemically very different than Ammonium Nitrate. About all they have in common is they do have the elements Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. :) |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:57:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The scenario is the pilot reaching across to interact with the flaps while the copilot throttles down. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: From my old Comair pilots..... "It's possible to unlatch those red latches, but you have to hold those latches down while bringing the throttles back..." The scenario is the pilot reaching across to interact with the flaps while the copilot throttles down.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:00:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The scenario is the pilot reaching across to interact with the flaps while the copilot throttles down. Yeah but the Comair pilots also mention that those 2 red latches are spring loaded, so it would have to be a deliberate effort for fuel cutoff. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:07:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The pilot called in the emergency and said he lost his engines. He was given clearance to land, but he said he wouldn’t make it and was aiming for the interstate. He should have went for landing on the water way along side of the interstate. Poor truck driver. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:10:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah but the Comair pilots also mention that those 2 red latches are spring loaded, so it would have to be a deliberate effort for fuel cutoff. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The scenario is the pilot reaching across to interact with the flaps while the copilot throttles down. Yeah but the Comair pilots also mention that those 2 red latches are spring loaded, so it would have to be a deliberate effort for fuel cutoff. Honestly, depending on a number of things, just having something sitting on the pedestal could lift those cutoff locks up when closing the power levers. Just need something to be underneath like a note book or folder and move the right way. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:13:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He should have went for landing on the water way along side of the interstate. Poor truck driver. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The pilot called in the emergency and said he lost his engines. He was given clearance to land, but he said he wouldn’t make it and was aiming for the interstate. He should have went for landing on the water way along side of the interstate. Poor truck driver. Surprised there wasn't an F/A onboard, standups usually do, and they're usually stunners. Like 1-10 they're 500 plus in looks. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:15:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly, depending on a number of things, just having something sitting on the pedestal could lift those cutoff locks up when closing the power levers. Just need something to be underneath like a note book or folder and move the right way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The scenario is the pilot reaching across to interact with the flaps while the copilot throttles down. Yeah but the Comair pilots also mention that those 2 red latches are spring loaded, so it would have to be a deliberate effort for fuel cutoff. Honestly, depending on a number of things, just having something sitting on the pedestal could lift those cutoff locks up when closing the power levers. Just need something to be underneath like a note book or folder and move the right way. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:15:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He should have went for landing on the water way along side of the interstate. Poor truck driver. When I saw that canal in the footage I said to myself that is what I would have gone for. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:28:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I saw that canal in the footage I said to myself that is what I would have gone for. It's South Florida. Surviving a crash only to get eaten would suck 
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:42:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/227964/5ai2ou8txu931-2763443888__1__jpg-3125545.JPG I can see it. Throttles are the levers in the middle and flaps are the lever to the right. The red switches are right under the throttles. We've got plenty or pilots here that have probably flown the CRJ or Challenger which is basically the same. I'm the idiot that has 14,000 hours in them. Most all of it in the left seat. I'm telling you what was posted on Youtube is 100% incorrect. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:43:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's South Florida. Surviving a crash only to get eaten would suck https://www.hindustantimes.com/ht-img/img/2023/09/24/550x309/fa_1695556368478_1695556373935.jpeg I would take my chances! |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:50:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Went there today, all cleaned up.
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:57:35 PM EDT
[#20]
I was out walking the dog around 3:10-3:20. I saw a plane come over—being an aviation geek and in the bizav business, I looked up. At first I thought it was a Hawker. It looked kind of stubby and I thought it had a cruciform tail. As it was directly north, I could see it was a Challenger. Couldn’t see any striping or other paint on it.
We are on the downwind to base for RW23 at Naples so I see a lot of patterns. He didn’t look abnormal at all. The engine/s were running and the gear was down. You could tell he was descending but not at an abnormal rate. Here was his track and my position is the red dot…  Attached FileSucks to think they only had a few seconds to live when I saw them. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:58:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The pilot was a close friend of some close friends of ours. Homeschool dad. RIP.  Sorry for his family.
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Posted: 2/11/2024 3:00:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How long does a re-light take if that were to happen? A while. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 3:06:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: He should have went for landing on the water way along side of the interstate. Poor truck driver. Truck driver survived. Quoted: Surprised there wasn't an F/A onboard, standups usually do, and they're usually stunners. Like 1-10 they're 500 plus in looks. There was a flight attendant on board. The F/A and two passengers evacuated successfully. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 4:12:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Does the 604 have FDR/CVR?
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Posted: 2/11/2024 4:14:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does the 604 have FDR/CVR? It should have both although depending on what type (regs) of trip it was it may nit be a required item. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 6:15:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Went there today, all cleaned up. @Iamhere really? You can’t see anything on the wall or the on the grass? |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 6:16:56 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was out walking the dog around 3:10-3:20. I saw a plane come over—being an aviation geek and in the bizav business, I looked up. At first I thought it was a Hawker. It looked kind of stubby and I thought it had a cruciform tail. As it was directly north, I could see it was a Challenger. Couldn’t see any striping or other paint on it. We are on the downwind to base for RW23 at Naples so I see a lot of patterns. He didn’t look abnormal at all. The engine/s were running and the gear was down. You could tell he was descending but not at an abnormal rate. Here was his track and my position is the red dot… https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/197999/IMG_3120_jpeg-3125747.JPG Sucks to think they only had a few seconds to live when I saw them. I live a few blocks from you. Howdy neighbor. @AA717driver |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 9:11:23 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I live a few blocks from you. Howdy neighbor. @AA717driver Hey! |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 2:01:19 AM EDT
[#29]
I believe the 604 has fuel jettison capabilities.
Possibly after a dual engine out, on approach the checklist has you dumping fuel? |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 2:17:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, no big loss for society. Sad people lost their lives but to care based on sportsy personalities is a misplaced life. You’re kinda fucken stupid aren’t ya? |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 3:07:45 AM EDT
[#31]
I think there are a few of us that flew .mil and others are civs. It is easy to get complacent and assume the guy in the right seat thinks the way you do. It sounds like standard procedures were neglected, if not available.
No professional pilot is going to fuck up fuel management in the terminal phase unless in an emergency. |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 3:33:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Read on a pilot group that fuel contamination could have played a roll. Curious what the final NTSB report will say. RIP pilots. Congrats on saving the three lives and not taking a y on the ground. That could have been much worse.
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Posted: 2/12/2024 6:19:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read on a pilot group that fuel contamination could have played a roll. Curious what the final NTSB report will say. RIP pilots. Congrats on saving the three lives and not taking a y on the ground. That could have been much worse. Hearing that a lot. Why would it show up on short final after flying several hours that day already? Not questioning to say you are wrong, I'm seeking to understand. Would there be something about the contaminants being not mixed with the fuel itself but rather some how stratified in the tanks to where once it was at a certain level the fuel pick ups finally consumed it and it was just horrible bad luck it was on final? |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 6:58:55 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 2/12/2024 7:05:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Holy fucking shit |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 7:08:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Just watched the dashcam video, that is nuts!
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Posted: 2/12/2024 7:10:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow. It’s amazing no other vehicles were hit. The pilots did a great job. |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 8:14:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow. It’s amazing no other vehicles were hit. The pilots did a great job. Yeah, wow they almost had it. Almost looks like maybe they landed on that white truck and that spit them out to the right and into the wall. The had a decent amount of velocity still towards the East so maybe still would have skidded off the right side but man they were close. Looks like a bounce to the right right after touch down making me think that. I think that impact and immediate fire answers a lot of questions about fuel starvation as there as an immediate fireball. |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 10:09:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Was he trying to make the median or the roadway? What do those of you who fly think? He sure had a lot of speed left at touchdown.
edit: I finally watched that last video a couple of times. What a shame as it looks like they almost pulled it off. To answer my own question I think the road was what he/they were going for. RIP to both pilots. |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 10:40:07 PM EDT
[#40]
That wall fucking killed them. If it hadn't been there, that just might have been survivable for the crew.
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Posted: 2/12/2024 11:17:21 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hearing that a lot. Why would it show up on short final after flying several hours that day already? Not questioning to say you are wrong, I'm seeking to understand. Would there be something about the contaminants being not mixed with the fuel itself but rather some how stratified in the tanks to where once it was at a certain level the fuel pick ups finally consumed it and it was just horrible bad luck it was on final? Quote HistoryQuoted: Hearing that a lot. Why would it show up on short final after flying several hours that day already? Not questioning to say you are wrong, I'm seeking to understand. Would there be something about the contaminants being not mixed with the fuel itself but rather some how stratified in the tanks to where once it was at a certain level the fuel pick ups finally consumed it and it was just horrible bad luck it was on final? If its DEF contamination it's not always something that apparent soon after fueling. https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2020/Mar/FY_2020_NPP_41_DEF_Contamination-Notes.pdf There have been at least 9 civilian aircraft and several military aircraft that were fueled with contaminated fuels, three of those aircraft had engine failures in flight, two had dual engine flameouts (one Falcon 50 with 3 engines, the other was a Cessna Citation 550 with 2 engines). Fortunately all of the aircraft involved landed safely on airports with no further damage or any injuries May 9, 2019 Two Cessna Citation 550’s, both operated by the same 14 CFR 135 operator, received 480 and 440 gallons of jet fuel at Punta Gorda Airport (PGD). An Eclipse Jet was also fueled that morning with FSII from the same truck. It has been confirmed that a pail of 2.5 gallons of unmarked DEF was mixed with a container of FSII prior to servicing the FSII reservoir on the refueler truck. Both Citations flew from PGD to Naples (APF) that morning. They received another 195 and 168 gallons respectively, picked up their passengers and departed on separate flight to different destinations. One aircraft was headed to Chicago Executive Airport (PWK), the other to Niagara Falls International Airport (IAG). The aircraft Enroute to IAG experienced an engine flameout at 35,000 feet, descended, then at 8,000 feet on approach to Savannah/Hilton Head Airport (SAV), experienced the second engine flameout, then landed without either engine, fortunately without damage or injuries. The aircraft Enroute to PWK experienced an engine flameout at 36,000 feet, descended and landed with one engine operative at Louisville International Airport (SDF) without damage or injuries. The FBO at APF placed their refueler and storage tank out of service until it was determined that the fuel was not contaminated with DEF. There were no reports of operational or maintenance issues with the Eclipse Jet at this time. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 11:49:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Video is a little clearer
 New Dashcam video of the Challenger business jet Crash Landing on I-75 in Florida. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 12:01:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Surprised there wasn't an F/A onboard, standups usually do, and they're usually stunners. Like 1-10 they're 500 plus in looks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The pilot called in the emergency and said he lost his engines. He was given clearance to land, but he said he wouldn't make it and was aiming for the interstate. He should have went for landing on the water way along side of the interstate. Poor truck driver. Surprised there wasn't an F/A onboard, standups usually do, and they're usually stunners. Like 1-10 they're 500 plus in looks. I was killing time in the Citation Delivery Center one day, only person there except for the receptionist. Who ever hired her hit a season of home runs and holes in one. I flew there in a Bonanza, she treated me like I was buying a fleet of Cessna airplanes. The furniture and carpet were also remarkable. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 12:05:26 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We've got plenty or pilots here that have probably flown the CRJ or Challenger which is basically the same. I'm the idiot that has 14,000 hours in them. Most all of it in the left seat. I'm telling you what was posted on Youtube is 100% incorrect. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/227964/5ai2ou8txu931-2763443888__1__jpg-3125545.JPG I can see it. Throttles are the levers in the middle and flaps are the lever to the right. The red switches are right under the throttles. We've got plenty or pilots here that have probably flown the CRJ or Challenger which is basically the same. I'm the idiot that has 14,000 hours in them. Most all of it in the left seat. I'm telling you what was posted on Youtube is 100% incorrect. You are the SME here. It sounded like an elegant theory to this layman, with a few previous examples cited, but if it's not possible, it's not possible. What else though could explain shutdown of both engines, several hours into flight, with still fuel in the tanks? Pilots didn't declare a fuel emergency, AIUI, just that they've lost both engines. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 12:12:11 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are the SME here. It sounded like an elegant theory to this layman, with a few previous examples cited, but if it's not possible, it's not possible. What else though could explain shutdown of both engines, several hours into flight, with still fuel in the tanks? Pilots didn't declare a fuel emergency, AIUI, just that they've lost both engines. Didn't read the whole thread... birds? |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 12:22:51 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are the SME here. It sounded like an elegant theory to this layman, with a few previous examples cited, but if it's not possible, it's not possible. What else though could explain shutdown of both engines, several hours into flight, with still fuel in the tanks? Pilots didn't declare a fuel emergency, AIUI, just that they've lost both engines. Contamination does that. They didn't have a fuel emergency since the fire shows there was still plenty left. The contaminates are usually microbial, particles, water, or other incorrect or incorrect ratio of petroleum additives. Microbial is basically a slime that will build up and contaminate and clog every filter assembly. Pretty common in 3rd world places or for planes that sit for awhile with high water content. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 1:58:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was he trying to make the median or the roadway? What do those of you who fly think? He sure had a lot of speed left at touchdown. At that point the crew were out of options. See Southern Airways DC-9 crash, they lost 2 engines too and had to land on a 2 lane highway. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 2:27:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are the SME here. It sounded like an elegant theory to this layman, with a few previous examples cited, but if it's not possible, it's not possible. What else though could explain shutdown of both engines, several hours into flight, with still fuel in the tanks? Pilots didn't declare a fuel emergency, AIUI, just that they've lost both engines. I've got several ideas, but I'll just leave it to the investigators. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 2:34:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was he trying to make the median or the roadway? What do those of you who fly think? He sure had a lot of speed left at touchdown. I would have gone for the canal that paralleled the highway. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 2:35:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've got several ideas, but I'll just leave it to the investigators. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are the SME here. It sounded like an elegant theory to this layman, with a few previous examples cited, but if it's not possible, it's not possible. What else though could explain shutdown of both engines, several hours into flight, with still fuel in the tanks? Pilots didn't declare a fuel emergency, AIUI, just that they've lost both engines. I've got several ideas, but I'll just leave it to the investigators. Utah.......Skywest? Whole lotta CRJs with CA made it out there. |
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