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Posted: 2/13/2024 2:35:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was he trying to make the median or the roadway? What do those of you who fly think? He sure had a lot of speed left at touchdown. He did not have the time/altitude to set up better. He had too much lateral motion that by one account had the right wing hit that concrete wall then turned the nose into the wall. It was a horribly bad situation. The only unknown was how bad would it be. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 2:42:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 2:58:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. I dunno, if I were one of those drivers I think my mind would jump straight to "get the hell out of the way and let the people who know what they're doing handle this". 
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:00:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:
I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. To be fair, the vast majority of the population would be zero help and only worsen the situation. If it were me by myself, I would certainly stop and help however I could. But these days, about 50% of my driving is with my kids strapped into their car seats. If this plane crashed in front of me, my first thought is to get my kids far away from the burning plane. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:01:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:
I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. Dude, it's America, people step over someone bleeding out at a gas pump to fill up their cars. And most of the planet is like that now. Add the "don't wanna talk wit no cops" and some other reasonable and unreasonable reasons, and this is what happens. I have had enough tools and other stuff of mine stolen, gotten threatened, or told to help more, while stopped helping people that I have second thoughts too. ETA: And people generally don't have med kits, training to use said med kits, or a fire extinguisher in their vehicle (or know how to use one of those). Most can't even check their tire pressure, and aren't really qualified to gas up their vehicle. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:03:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. You said it yourself...giant fireball. Even those that wanted to help probably couldn't even get close enough to do anything. I would rather those drivers had all went to the left hand lane and GTFO'd. It would probably be better for bystanders to clear the road so that Fire/EMS could bring all their stuff in. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:04:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You said it yourself...giant fireball. Even those that wanted to help probably couldn't even get close enough to do anything. I would rather those drivers had all went to the left hand lane and GTFO'd. It would probably be better for bystanders to clear the road so that Fire/EMS could bring all their stuff in. I think one of the early people posting their pics/vids from the opposing lane said they could feel the heat. You're not getting near a jet fuel fire in anything normies have in their vehicles. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:07:05 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Contamination does that. They didn't have a fuel emergency since the fire shows there was still plenty left. The contaminates are usually microbial, particles, water, or other incorrect or incorrect ratio of petroleum additives. Microbial is basically a slime that will build up and contaminate and clog every filter assembly. Pretty common in 3rd world places or for planes that sit for awhile with high water content. After how many hours of flight, and evidently right as they were configuring for landing? This didn't appear to be like other fuel starvation/contamination incidents cited, where first one engine quits at X altitude, then a little bit later, #2 quits too. If only because the pilots didn't declare an engine out to ATC, AIUI, but rather that they lost both at once. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the radio log and course of events? |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:10:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude, it's America, people step over someone bleeding out at a gas pump to fill up their cars. And most of the planet is like that now. Add the "don't wanna talk wit no cops" and some other reasonable and unreasonable reasons, and this is what happens. I have had enough tools and other stuff of mine stolen, gotten threatened, or told to help more, while stopped helping people that I have second thoughts too. ETA: And people generally don't have med kits, training to use said med kits, or a fire extinguisher in their vehicle (or know how to use one of those). Most can't even check their tire pressure, and aren't really qualified to gas up their vehicle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted:
I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. Dude, it's America, people step over someone bleeding out at a gas pump to fill up their cars. And most of the planet is like that now. Add the "don't wanna talk wit no cops" and some other reasonable and unreasonable reasons, and this is what happens. I have had enough tools and other stuff of mine stolen, gotten threatened, or told to help more, while stopped helping people that I have second thoughts too. ETA: And people generally don't have med kits, training to use said med kits, or a fire extinguisher in their vehicle (or know how to use one of those). Most can't even check their tire pressure, and aren't really qualified to gas up their vehicle. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:12:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After how many hours of flight, and evidently right as they were configuring for landing? This didn't appear to be like other fuel starvation/contamination incidents cited, where first one engine quits at X altitude, then a little bit later, #2 quits too. If only because the pilots didn't declare an engine out to ATC, AIUI, but rather that they lost both at once. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the radio log and course of events? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Contamination does that. They didn't have a fuel emergency since the fire shows there was still plenty left. The contaminates are usually microbial, particles, water, or other incorrect or incorrect ratio of petroleum additives. Microbial is basically a slime that will build up and contaminate and clog every filter assembly. Pretty common in 3rd world places or for planes that sit for awhile with high water content. After how many hours of flight, and evidently right as they were configuring for landing? This didn't appear to be like other fuel starvation/contamination incidents cited, where first one engine quits at X altitude, then a little bit later, #2 quits too. If only because the pilots didn't declare an engine out to ATC, AIUI, but rather that they lost both at once. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the radio log and course of events? I'm no expert, but I would assume being that close to the airport, they would have notified ATC of one engine being out upon approach. It sounds like they lost both engines and didn't have much time after that. It's incredible that he almost pulled it off, and still saved the passengers lives. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:13:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If its DEF contamination it's not always something that apparent soon after fueling. https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2020/Mar/FY_2020_NPP_41_DEF_Contamination-Notes.pdf Thanks for that. Sounds like DEF crystallization can lead to filter and line plugging and that probably is just a random event then and the timing here was bad luck at such low altitude. Sounds like the other cases have been where there was sufficient altitude to deal with the emergency. For the pilots and jet mechanics, would pulling power to idle increase the chances of this happening? Wondering if maybe a really big change in fuel flow might cause contaminants to work loose, or maybe as the fuel air mixture leans out a bit it is enough to make it really sensitive to plugged injectors or something? Sorry, I'm an engineer and do a lot of failure analysis (not in aviation) so geek out on this stuff. 
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Posted: 2/13/2024 3:18:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryWatched that several times in slow motion, almost looks like right at touchdown the left wing clips what is probably the white truck and that causes a little bank to the right. The plane seems to be on the gear but is still moving left to right with a lot of velocity and eventually the right wing clips the wall. So stinking close to pulling off a miraculous landing. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 4:13:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Watched that several times in slow motion, almost looks like right at touchdown the left wing clips what is probably the white truck and that causes a little bank to the right. The plane seems to be on the gear but is still moving left to right with a lot of velocity and eventually the right wing clips the wall. So stinking close to pulling off a miraculous landing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Watched that several times in slow motion, almost looks like right at touchdown the left wing clips what is probably the white truck and that causes a little bank to the right. The plane seems to be on the gear but is still moving left to right with a lot of velocity and eventually the right wing clips the wall. So stinking close to pulling off a miraculous landing. It sure gives one an appreciation of how much luck it takes to stick an emergency landing when you look at the events where everyone got to walk away. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 4:42:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm no expert, but I would assume being that close to the airport, they would have notified ATC of one engine being out upon approach. It sounds like they lost both engines and didn't have much time after that. It's incredible that he almost pulled it off, and still saved the passengers lives. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Contamination does that. They didn't have a fuel emergency since the fire shows there was still plenty left. The contaminates are usually microbial, particles, water, or other incorrect or incorrect ratio of petroleum additives. Microbial is basically a slime that will build up and contaminate and clog every filter assembly. Pretty common in 3rd world places or for planes that sit for awhile with high water content. After how many hours of flight, and evidently right as they were configuring for landing? This didn't appear to be like other fuel starvation/contamination incidents cited, where first one engine quits at X altitude, then a little bit later, #2 quits too. If only because the pilots didn't declare an engine out to ATC, AIUI, but rather that they lost both at once. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the radio log and course of events? I'm no expert, but I would assume being that close to the airport, they would have notified ATC of one engine being out upon approach. It sounds like they lost both engines and didn't have much time after that. It's incredible that he almost pulled it off, and still saved the passengers lives. There was no time after the engine out, looks like about a minute. The Challenger appears to be a poor glider. If they *knew* they had a low fuel issue, they flew over dozens of possible airports before getting to Naples. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 5:02:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. You know the old adage: A Man's got to know his Limitations. If you know your skill sets, and know there's nothing you can do, please carefully move to the left, and continue on. Jay |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 5:27:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Contamination does that. They didn't have a fuel emergency since the fire shows there was still plenty left. The contaminates are usually microbial, particles, water, or other incorrect or incorrect ratio of petroleum additives. Microbial is basically a slime that will build up and contaminate and clog every filter assembly. Pretty common in 3rd world places or for planes that sit for awhile with high water content. Don't know if the same thing happens to airplanes but ships sometimes sink in storms when the rough weather stirs up shit in their fuel and clogs all the filters. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 5:29:58 PM EDT
[#17]
They're probably better off out of the way.
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shouldn't be amazed by this any more but can't help it: A GIANT AIRPLANE JUST FIREBALLED IN FRONT OF THEM and some people still swerve around the scene. Ain't nobody got time for that. I got to be somewhere. Outta my way. C'mon, folks, at least stop and call 911 and grab your med kit and go pretend to offer assistance for appearance's sake if nothing else. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 5:38:47 PM EDT
[#18]
I would really like to know the cause of this one. As for where to put it down, it would depend on the altitude and heading when they lost power, there's only so much maneuvering you can do in that scenario before you lose too much height and energy. Options become very limited very fast. Hopefully they can get to the cause quickly, and thank God at least the passengers made it out alive.
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Posted: 2/13/2024 5:52:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You said it yourself...giant fireball. Even those that wanted to help probably couldn't even get close enough to do anything. I would rather those drivers had all went to the left hand lane and GTFO'd. It would probably be better for bystanders to clear the road so that Fire/EMS could bring all their stuff in. As a veteran Fire Officer who has actually responded to aircraft down on the interstate with fatalities; I’d prefer that they just keep moving and keep a clear path for responding units. 99% are just going to rubberneck and clutter the scene, the 1% of do-gooder well intended likely have minimal training and equipment, and will be of little use in that scenario. Not much to be done really, but put out the fire , recover the bodies and clean up the mess. Takes days. Of course we will treat and transport the survivors, but in all likelihood, if they got out, they are relatively un-harmed. Nothing more frustrating than trying to get to the scene and rubbernecking tourists have the roadway completely clogged. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:02:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was no time after the engine out, looks like about a minute. The Challenger appears to be a poor glider. If they *knew* they had a low fuel issue, they flew over dozens of possible airports before getting to Naples. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Contamination does that. They didn't have a fuel emergency since the fire shows there was still plenty left. The contaminates are usually microbial, particles, water, or other incorrect or incorrect ratio of petroleum additives. Microbial is basically a slime that will build up and contaminate and clog every filter assembly. Pretty common in 3rd world places or for planes that sit for awhile with high water content. After how many hours of flight, and evidently right as they were configuring for landing? This didn't appear to be like other fuel starvation/contamination incidents cited, where first one engine quits at X altitude, then a little bit later, #2 quits too. If only because the pilots didn't declare an engine out to ATC, AIUI, but rather that they lost both at once. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the radio log and course of events? I'm no expert, but I would assume being that close to the airport, they would have notified ATC of one engine being out upon approach. It sounds like they lost both engines and didn't have much time after that. It's incredible that he almost pulled it off, and still saved the passengers lives. There was no time after the engine out, looks like about a minute. The Challenger appears to be a poor glider. If they *knew* they had a low fuel issue, they flew over dozens of possible airports before getting to Naples. I can't see that being a low fuel issue. These guys were pretty good old hands at the controls. Reminds me of the big question when dealing with fat bizjets. "Hey would you take more fuel if we gave you a discount??" |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:23:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You said it yourself...giant fireball. Even those that wanted to help probably couldn't even get close enough to do anything. I would rather those drivers had all went to the left hand lane and GTFO'd. It would probably be better for bystanders to clear the road so that Fire/EMS could bring all their stuff in. I drove past a car fire on the highway many years ago. It was incredible how hot it felt, even from inside our car with the windows closed. I can’t imagine how hot a jet fuel fire would feel. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:53:43 PM EDT
[#22]
It's been almost 40 years since a Challenger blew up in Florida.
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Posted: 2/13/2024 7:00:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's been almost 40 years since a Challenger blew up in Florida. It's not funny, at least one member here knows of one of the crew members. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 7:08:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not funny, at least one member here knows of one of the crew members. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 7:13:52 PM EDT
[#25]
May those involved RIP.
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Posted: 2/13/2024 7:20:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a veteran Fire Officer who has actually responded to aircraft down on the interstate with fatalities; I’d prefer that they just keep moving and keep a clear path for responding units. I have little more than contempt for the atomized world we live in - nobody can do anything unless they're a trained expert. Just go on and let people burn to death because you're not trained and don't have all the gear.  I mean, sure, if you're going to just be in the way, keep moving - but it sucks that so few people have *NOTHING* to offer in terms of assistance. I don't like that world. I want to go back and live in the world where people's first reaction was to help, not keep driving. Even if they weren't trained professionals. Granted, that observation probably goes further for a mundane traffic accident than a plane crashing into a giant fireball, but, still.....I miss the society where everyone knew how to help a little - or at least were willing to try. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 7:26:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I apologize for my insensitive comment Accepted.......we have a lotta aviation folks on here. Kinda ironic when you think of it, seeing as the AR-15 was designed by a subsidiary of Fairchild Aircraft. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 9:07:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was he trying to make the median or the roadway? What do those of you who fly think? He sure had a lot of speed left at touchdown. I was thinking they were maybe trying for the golf course just past that wall and didn’t quite make it. Looking at the dashcam, idk maybe they were trying for the road the whole time. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 10:56:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was thinking they were maybe trying for the golf course just past that wall and didn’t quite make it. Looking at the dashcam, idk maybe they were trying for the road the whole time. I'm sure we'll never know unless there is a CVR conversation about their intent. As I watch the ground track again if they lost the engines even a few seconds earlier they probably could have made a turn to better line up with the road. Still had traffic to deal with but with their velocity vector completely aligned with the interstate perhaps the outcome would have been different. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 11:03:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't see that being a low fuel issue. These guys were pretty good old hands at the controls. Reminds me of the big question when dealing with fat bizjets. "Hey would you take more fuel if we gave you a discount??" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Contamination does that. They didn't have a fuel emergency since the fire shows there was still plenty left. The contaminates are usually microbial, particles, water, or other incorrect or incorrect ratio of petroleum additives. Microbial is basically a slime that will build up and contaminate and clog every filter assembly. Pretty common in 3rd world places or for planes that sit for awhile with high water content. After how many hours of flight, and evidently right as they were configuring for landing? This didn't appear to be like other fuel starvation/contamination incidents cited, where first one engine quits at X altitude, then a little bit later, #2 quits too. If only because the pilots didn't declare an engine out to ATC, AIUI, but rather that they lost both at once. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the radio log and course of events? I'm no expert, but I would assume being that close to the airport, they would have notified ATC of one engine being out upon approach. It sounds like they lost both engines and didn't have much time after that. It's incredible that he almost pulled it off, and still saved the passengers lives. There was no time after the engine out, looks like about a minute. The Challenger appears to be a poor glider. If they *knew* they had a low fuel issue, they flew over dozens of possible airports before getting to Naples. I can't see that being a low fuel issue. These guys were pretty good old hands at the controls. Reminds me of the big question when dealing with fat bizjets. "Hey would you take more fuel if we gave you a discount??" That is the scary part. Twin turbines in seemingly good maintenance don't fall out of the sky very often. The pilots looked experienced. The last radio call was all business I am sorry for the member that knew the pilots, but they appeared to be a heck of a testament to that profession.
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Posted: 2/14/2024 8:33:28 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryAs soon as the wing hit the wall, you can see fuel get released. She had plenty of it. |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 8:45:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have little more than contempt for the atomized world we live in - nobody can do anything unless they're a trained expert. Just go on and let people burn to death because you're not trained and don't have all the gear. I mean, sure, if you're going to just be in the way, keep moving - but it sucks that so few people have *NOTHING* to offer in terms of assistance. I don't like that world. I want to go back and live in the world where people's first reaction was to help, not keep driving. Even if they weren't trained professionals. Granted, that observation probably goes further for a mundane traffic accident than a plane crashing into a giant fireball, but, still.....I miss the society where everyone knew how to help a little - or at least were willing to try. My friend from Tennessee, I hear you and don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but you don't have an appreciation for exactly how dangerous that situation was. Someone without fire fighting gear couldn't get within 50-100' of that fire without crisping. It really was best for 99.9% of all commuters to simply unass the area ASAP and make room for the professionals. |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 11:49:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have little more than contempt for the atomized world we live in - nobody can do anything unless they're a trained expert. Just go on and let people burn to death because you're not trained and don't have all the gear. I mean, sure, if you're going to just be in the way, keep moving - but it sucks that so few people have *NOTHING* to offer in terms of assistance. I don't like that world. I want to go back and live in the world where people's first reaction was to help, not keep driving. Even if they weren't trained professionals. Granted, that observation probably goes further for a mundane traffic accident than a plane crashing into a giant fireball, but, still.....I miss the society where everyone knew how to help a little - or at least were willing to try. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As a veteran Fire Officer who has actually responded to aircraft down on the interstate with fatalities; I’d prefer that they just keep moving and keep a clear path for responding units. I have little more than contempt for the atomized world we live in - nobody can do anything unless they're a trained expert. Just go on and let people burn to death because you're not trained and don't have all the gear. I mean, sure, if you're going to just be in the way, keep moving - but it sucks that so few people have *NOTHING* to offer in terms of assistance. I don't like that world. I want to go back and live in the world where people's first reaction was to help, not keep driving. Even if they weren't trained professionals. Granted, that observation probably goes further for a mundane traffic accident than a plane crashing into a giant fireball, but, still.....I miss the society where everyone knew how to help a little - or at least were willing to try. People did help. The video of the passengers escaping is recorded by someone that was just passing by. They're running up to the plane just as quickly as the passengers are running away from it. The person recording is asking if anyone else is in there as he's approaching the plane. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:50:18 AM EDT
[#34]
Any substantiated guesses to the cause yet?
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:59:56 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: My friend from Tennessee, I hear you and don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but you don't have an appreciation for exactly how dangerous that situation was. Someone without fire fighting gear couldn't get within 50-100' of that fire without crisping. It really was best for 99.9% of all commuters to simply unass the area ASAP and make room for the professionals. You're not wrong. But seeing the cars just blast past still doesn't sit well with me. Quoted: People did help. The video of the passengers escaping is recorded by someone that was just passing by. They're running up to the plane just as quickly as the passengers are running away from it. The person recording is asking if anyone else is in there as he's approaching the plane. I missed that part - I saw the video of them running but not the audio (I watch a lot with audio off while I'm working). But thanks for pointing it out. Even if the odds of meaningfully helping are -0- I want to encourage people to try anyway. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 7:22:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any substantiated guesses to the cause yet? Not that I’ve seen/heard. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 7:27:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any substantiated guesses to the cause yet? My call is bird ingestion, but I don't have much to base it on, other than living in Florida and knowing there is a major bird flyway over Naples, along with thousands of square miles of wetlands. |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 5:29:45 PM EDT
[#38]
NTSB prelim out. Oil pressure warnings? Ingestion?
https://winknews.com/2024/02/27/plane-crash-collier-county-preliminary-report/ |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 5:38:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NTSB prelim out. Oil pressure warnings? Ingestion? https://winknews.com/2024/02/27/plane-crash-collier-county-preliminary-report/ Interesting. So they lost oil pressure in both engines and then lost both engines completely. How does the oiling system on these planes work? How would both engines lose oil pressure simultaneously? |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 5:40:32 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NTSB prelim out. Oil pressure warnings? Ingestion? https://winknews.com/2024/02/27/plane-crash-collier-county-preliminary-report/ Wow. For the SMEs, are there independent systems supplying each engine with oil? Would bird strikes on both result in those kind of readings/lights? |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 5:42:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NTSB prelim out. Oil pressure warnings? Ingestion? https://winknews.com/2024/02/27/plane-crash-collier-county-preliminary-report/ The report indicates that both engine throttle levers were discovered in the IDLE stop position. Also, it was discovered the flap selector handle was in a position consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. The flap actuator jack screws were similarly found to be consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. Wasn't this speculated about early on in the thread? |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 5:43:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not wrong. But seeing the cars just blast past still doesn't sit well with me. I missed that part - I saw the video of them running but not the audio (I watch a lot with audio off while I'm working). But thanks for pointing it out. Even if the odds of meaningfully helping are -0- I want to encourage people to try anyway. I understand and support your sentiment, but the harsh reality remains that other than a couple people to offer aid And comfort to the survivors until EMS arrived, there was nothing to be done by the average joe, and getting clear of the area was absolutely the best decision . There is no scenario in that video where a citizen makes any difference at all. Each incident is its own, but the one we are discussing had no opportunity for a rescue, or early extinguishing of the fire. So I maintain that those folks swerving and getting the hell out of dodge were doing the right thing. |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 5:46:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The report indicates that both engine throttle levers were discovered in the IDLE stop position. Also, it was discovered the flap selector handle was in a position consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. The flap actuator jack screws were similarly found to be consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. Wasn't this speculated about early on in the thread? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: NTSB prelim out. Oil pressure warnings? Ingestion? https://winknews.com/2024/02/27/plane-crash-collier-county-preliminary-report/ The report indicates that both engine throttle levers were discovered in the IDLE stop position. Also, it was discovered the flap selector handle was in a position consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. The flap actuator jack screws were similarly found to be consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. Wasn't this speculated about early on in the thread? Probably pulled to idle on oil warning, flaps set for landing. |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 5:56:58 PM EDT
[#44]
If the engines died, there is no reason for the thrust levers to be anywhere other than idle.
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Posted: 2/27/2024 6:10:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. So they lost oil pressure in both engines and then lost both engines completely. How does the oiling system on these planes work? How would both engines lose oil pressure simultaneously? At a low enough power setting those indicators probably mean the oil pressure in the respective engine is less than 25 psi or something near that. It’s probably a common EICAS message during start up and shutdown. So it would make sense with dual engine failure. But I’ve never flown a Challenger, just Gulfstreams. The challengers do have individual nacelle oil tanks for each engine and a oil replenishment tank in the tail so the crew can refil them during preflight. |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 6:15:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably pulled to idle on oil warning, flaps set for landing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: NTSB prelim out. Oil pressure warnings? Ingestion? https://winknews.com/2024/02/27/plane-crash-collier-county-preliminary-report/ The report indicates that both engine throttle levers were discovered in the IDLE stop position. Also, it was discovered the flap selector handle was in a position consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. The flap actuator jack screws were similarly found to be consistent with a 45-degree flap extension. Wasn't this speculated about early on in the thread? Probably pulled to idle on oil warning, flaps set for landing. Why go to idle stop for an engine oil warning at that low of an altitude? On the CRJ (I know it’s not the same but very close cousin with same engines), idle stop is for engine fire or severe damage (possible bird ingestion). Let it burn or shake itself to a stop at that low of an altitude. Dual engine flameout is just ignitions on and hold an airspeed. I think it is possible that after they knew they were going to crash they tried to cut fuel flow to lessen the chance of a fire upon impact?? If so, they were even more cool than indicated on the radio which was already very cool headed. This is my hope. |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 6:33:06 PM EDT
[#47]
I haven’t read this thread in full so please excuse my ignorance if I’m presenting info that has already been shared.
My neighbor is a challenger pilot and sent me a simulator video where there is the following scenario: First officer is flying, he has hands in throttle, captain reaches over to put hands on flap lever. Copilot pulls back power, captains wrist kills both engines by pinning the captains wrist between the flap selector and the kill switches. My neighbor said he would never have thought that was possible until he saw that video. |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 6:38:14 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. So they lost oil pressure in both engines and then lost both engines completely. How does the oiling system on these planes work? How would both engines lose oil pressure simultaneously? They are stand alone, so something else is the issue. Unless they both miraculously lost their oil at the same rate and at the same time to cause the similar drop. They will run on low oil pressure, but the bearing damage would not take long. Even with that, it would be better to run them until you can't. This isn't a case of a single engine shutdown but both. Only ties between fuel and oil is the fuel/oil heater. The oil heat is used to heat the fuel before it is delivered into the fuel nozzles. The wing tanks are fairly automated with ejectors and fuel pumps. All the fuel is pushed into the aft collector tank before delivered to the engines and APU. The electric fuel pumps should be on auto and will only turn on when there is a time the engine pump is not providing adequate pressure. Startup is the most common time. If fuel was contaminated, they would have received a notification for each engine's pressure switch. If there was an imbalance between L & R, they would have received a notification. There is a crossfeed valve, but I cannot remember if it allows you to only one on one side of the tanks. I think it still pulls evenly and would rather have you level the tanks rather than only feed from one. |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 6:40:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it is possible that after they knew they were going to crash they tried to cut fuel flow to lessen the chance of a fire upon impact?? If so, they were even more cool than indicated on the radio which was already very cool headed. This is my hope. But wouldn’t that be hard stop shutoff position just aft of idle/flight idle? |
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Posted: 2/27/2024 6:44:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven’t read this thread in full so please excuse my ignorance if I’m presenting info that has already been shared. My neighbor is a challenger pilot and sent me a simulator video where there is the following scenario: First officer is flying, he has hands in throttle, captain reaches over to put hands on flap lever. Copilot pulls back power, captains wrist kills both engines by pinning the captains wrist between the flap selector and the kill switches. My neighbor said he would never have thought that was possible until he saw that video. I’ve heard conflicting options here but I’d think it would be a bad design if those idle shutoff paddle switches were a simple flip up or down design. It seems more likely those would need to be pulled up and out of a detent before moving aft to cutoff just to prohibit such an accident occurring. |
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