User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/27/2024 7:30:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve heard conflicting options here but I’d think it would be a bad design if those idle shutoff paddle switches were a simple flip up or down design. It seems more likely those would need to be pulled up and out of a detent before moving aft to cutoff just to prohibit such an accident occurring. I hear ya, like my buddy said he would have never thought it was possible by the way you pull out and up to kills the engines but they were able to recreate this in the sim |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/27/2024 10:16:27 PM EDT
[#2]
The question is whether the low oil pressure warnings were before or after engine failure.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/28/2024 12:27:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven’t read this thread in full so please excuse my ignorance if I’m presenting info that has already been shared. My neighbor is a challenger pilot and sent me a simulator video where there is the following scenario: First officer is flying, he has hands in throttle, captain reaches over to put hands on flap lever. Copilot pulls back power, captains wrist kills both engines by pinning the captains wrist between the flap selector and the kill switches. My neighbor said he would never have thought that was possible until he saw that video. That's interesting. Someone posted here, very early in the thread, that they remember talking to a pilot who described this exact same scenario happening to them a long time ago. I think the only response to the post was "Bullshit," and then the thread carried on. If you feel like digging through here, I remember it being around the picture of the cockpit that shows the 2 red kill switches in the middle, right where the pilots arm would be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/28/2024 6:25:08 PM EDT
[#4]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/29/2024 5:26:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh I’ve got the video, screen shots below https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4554_jpeg-3144214.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4553_jpeg-3144234.JPG Yikes. I wonder if investigators will be able to tell if that’s what happened or not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/29/2024 5:30:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yikes. I wonder if investigators will be able to tell if that’s what happened or not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oh I’ve got the video, screen shots below https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4554_jpeg-3144214.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4553_jpeg-3144234.JPG Yikes. I wonder if investigators will be able to tell if that’s what happened or not. what a great design...fuckin quebecois |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/29/2024 6:43:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yikes. I wonder if investigators will be able to tell if that’s what happened or not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oh I’ve got the video, screen shots below https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4554_jpeg-3144214.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4553_jpeg-3144234.JPG Yikes. I wonder if investigators will be able to tell if that’s what happened or not. The prelim report says Moments before 3:10 p.m., the first of three Master Warnings was recorded, signaling “L ENGINE OIL PRESSURE.” The second Master Warning went off immediately after, signaling “R ENGINE OIL PRESSURE.” Six seconds after that came the final Master Warning: “ENGINE.” For those that know…Does this info come from the flight data recorder? Would the recorder also capture whether the throttle was moved directly to shutoff from somewhere above idle? If they have this info already is it typical they wouldn’t release it in the prelim report? |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/1/2024 6:11:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The prelim report says For those that know…Does this info come from the flight data recorder? Would the recorder also capture whether the throttle was moved directly to shutoff from somewhere above idle? If they have this info already is it typical they wouldn’t release it in the prelim report? Bump, I’d like to know this too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 12:46:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Prelim NTSB report and Blancoliro video is out.
Sounds like maybe water in fuel, maybe throttles past cutoff. No birdy bits mentioned in engines.  NTSB Preliminary Report: Naples Challenger 600 N823KD |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 10:18:44 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Prelim NTSB report and Blancoliro video is out. Sounds like maybe water in fuel, maybe throttles past cutoff. No birdy bits mentioned in engines.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_yTXcC4Rr4They had no time once the engines were off. The throttle being the cutoff seems janky to me but what do I know. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 10:35:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh I’ve got the video, screen shots below https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4554_jpeg-3144214.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4553_jpeg-3144234.JPG That looks like a really bad design flaw.  Here’s the fuel cocks (shut offs) on the G-IV. There are three gates you have to pull the lever to the left then up of down depending on if you are introducing or cutting off fuel flow.  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 12:06:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Is Jet A similar to diesel in that it is hygroscopic and typically will absorb some water? Most diesel trucks have a water drain in the fuel filter housing, so wondering if that was the source of water in the tank. Assuming there is a water drain procedure if that is the case?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 12:31:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is Jet A similar to diesel in that it is hygroscopic and typically will absorb some water? Most diesel trucks have a water drain in the fuel filter housing, so wondering if that was the source of water in the tank. Assuming there is a water drain procedure if that is the case? Jet fuel has entrained water in it which basically stays in it thru combustion. Water content needs to be below something like 100 parts per million by volume. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 1:56:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jet fuel has entrained water in it which basically stays in it thru combustion. Water content needs to be below something like 100 parts per million by volume. Thanks! |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 8:20:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks! Also meant to say that the fuel trucks we rely on have a filter vessel which is the last line of water defense and filtration for particulates before loading on the plane. Self serve jet fuel is rare but not uncommon. But using self serve on a big corporate jet would be challenging to say the least. I’ve done it with smaller citations and king airs but big jets are hard to move without specialized tugs and parking/positioning around self serve cabinets would almost certainly be an issue especially for something as big as a Challenger or Gulfstream. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 8:31:46 PM EDT
[#16]
I drove by the crash site in Naples yesterday, and the concrete wall was breached and scorched. While the upright pillars of the wall were still standing, the middle sections were burnt and collapsed. The bad landing was just north of the golden gate parkway which is the major traffic artery for Naples. I can only imagine what it was like on that day....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/2/2024 9:38:31 PM EDT
[#17]
@blackfox..I have a weekend home in Grey Oaks CC..we just came into town from Jupiter for a few days and it's our first time seeing the crash site..Holy fuck..that fire must have been brutal
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/3/2024 8:48:52 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also meant to say that the fuel trucks we rely on have a filter vessel which is the last line of water defense and filtration for particulates before loading on the plane. Self serve jet fuel is rare but not uncommon. But using self serve on a big corporate jet would be challenging to say the least. I’ve done it with smaller citations and king airs but big jets are hard to move without specialized tugs and parking/positioning around self serve cabinets would almost certainly be an issue especially for something as big as a Challenger or Gulfstream. There are a lot of departments that fuel from self service fuel pits, it's not a big deal at all. It's easier for jets that use single point, which is nearly all types other than the older small jets. The size of the plane makes no difference in how hard it is to move either.. My last job did that with F900's every flight, and it was a lot better and faster to have our own hangar staff do it than sit around waiting for a FBO crew to show up to pull and fuel, especially now when nearly every FBO is drastically understaffed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/3/2024 5:16:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I drove by the crash site in Naples yesterday, and the concrete wall was breached and scorched. While the upright pillars of the wall were still standing, the middle sections were burnt and collapsed. The bad landing was just north of the golden gate parkway which is the major traffic artery for Naples. I can only imagine what it was like on that day.... It was basically gridlock for miles. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/3/2024 5:24:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are a lot of departments that fuel from self service fuel pits, it's not a big deal at all. It's easier for jets that use single point, which is nearly all types other than the older small jets. The size of the plane makes no difference in how hard it is to move either.. My last job did that with F900's every flight, and it was a lot better and faster to have our own hangar staff do it than sit around waiting for a FBO crew to show up to pull and fuel, especially now when nearly every FBO is drastically understaffed. I guess smaller airports still do it, but taking our Gulfstream into those types of fields was never our first choice and I always tankered fuel out of concern about QC. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/3/2024 6:19:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess smaller airports still do it, but taking our Gulfstream into those types of fields was never our first choice and I always tankered fuel out of concern about QC. Not trying to further derail, but plenty of big airports do this too. It’s a very common thing for flight departments to have their own fuel pit, or an FBO pit by the hangar, and do all their home fueling from it. I’ve seen more large corporate jets pit fueling than smaller jets, it’s very common at corporate used airports. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/3/2024 6:33:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not trying to further derail, but plenty of big airports do this too. It’s a very common thing for flight departments to have their own fuel pit, or an FBO pit by the hangar, and do all their home fueling from it. I’ve seen more large corporate jets pit fueling than smaller jets, it’s very common at corporate used airports. No FBO worth a damn is going to invest in a self service JetA fuel farm. Maybe a mom and pop shop or a Sponsor operated FBO. See for yourself. Airnav Flight departments? Some do. But at a public use airport, that capability while allowed by the FAA, is highly regulated. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/3/2024 6:33:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a very common thing for flight departments to have their own fuel pit, or an FBO pit by the hangar, and do all their home fueling from it. I’ve seen more large corporate jets pit fueling than smaller jets, it’s very common at corporate used airports. Oh ok. I see now. Yeah a private operation makes sense I was thinking of something akin to GA self serve systems. I’ve never seen one at a larger operation. We occasionally would call up one of the FBO’s to come fuel us up at our hanger, if we were departing w/o passengers. Normally we’d taxi over to either one of the big box chain FBO’s on the field and grab fuel on their ramp along with our passengers. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/4/2024 1:19:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The prelim report says For those that know…Does this info come from the flight data recorder? Would the recorder also capture whether the throttle was moved directly to shutoff from somewhere above idle? If they have this info already is it typical they wouldn’t release it in the prelim report? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh I’ve got the video, screen shots below https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4554_jpeg-3144214.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4553_jpeg-3144234.JPG Yikes. I wonder if investigators will be able to tell if that’s what happened or not. The prelim report says Moments before 3:10 p.m., the first of three Master Warnings was recorded, signaling “L ENGINE OIL PRESSURE.” The second Master Warning went off immediately after, signaling “R ENGINE OIL PRESSURE.” Six seconds after that came the final Master Warning: “ENGINE.” For those that know…Does this info come from the flight data recorder? Would the recorder also capture whether the throttle was moved directly to shutoff from somewhere above idle? If they have this info already is it typical they wouldn’t release it in the prelim report? Is that how these shut off levers work? Would they trigger the ENGINE OIL PRESSURE warning if they were engaged? I have zero understanding of how the red kill switch actually shuts down the engine, once it's engaged. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/4/2024 1:28:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The prelim report says For those that know…Does this info come from the flight data recorder? Would the recorder also capture whether the throttle was moved directly to shutoff from somewhere above idle? If they have this info already is it typical they wouldn’t release it in the prelim report? FDR will have all of that info. Throttle position sensors "should" be part of it and along with engine info. I can't remember all the datapoints it pulled on that plane since we never really screwed with it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/4/2024 3:35:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that how these shut off levers work? Would they trigger the ENGINE OIL PRESSURE warning if they were engaged? I have zero understanding of how the red kill switch actually shuts down the engine, once it's engaged. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh I’ve got the video, screen shots below https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4554_jpeg-3144214.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/421774/IMG_4553_jpeg-3144234.JPG Yikes. I wonder if investigators will be able to tell if that’s what happened or not. The prelim report says Moments before 3:10 p.m., the first of three Master Warnings was recorded, signaling “L ENGINE OIL PRESSURE.” The second Master Warning went off immediately after, signaling “R ENGINE OIL PRESSURE.” Six seconds after that came the final Master Warning: “ENGINE.” For those that know…Does this info come from the flight data recorder? Would the recorder also capture whether the throttle was moved directly to shutoff from somewhere above idle? If they have this info already is it typical they wouldn’t release it in the prelim report? Is that how these shut off levers work? Would they trigger the ENGINE OIL PRESSURE warning if they were engaged? I have zero understanding of how the red kill switch actually shuts down the engine, once it's engaged. The ENGINE OIL PRESSURE warning may or may not be related to the failure of the engines. If the warning light illuminated PRIOR to engine shutdown, then that is a problem. If the engines shut down for some other reason, THEN those lights would certainly illuminate as the engines spooled down as the oil pressure would drop below normal. Those lights illuminate anytime there is power to the aircraft (and if you want to be technical, power to that system) AND engine oil pressure is below normal required pressure. Seems like HIGH oil pressure is an uncommon scenario. Turn your car key to the ON position without the engine running. Bet your OIL PRESSURE light is illuminated on your dash. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
Attached File
Attached File