User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 3:16:33 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
High altitude mountain flying at night in a single engine recip! What could wrong?  My dad was a pilot, and aviation fascinates me. Flying around ID/MT/WY, he developed a healthy respect for how easy it is to die in mountains. Beware the box canyon.
This scenario seems on the wrong side of the risk/benefit line. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 3:24:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quite patient? They made her do everything but an Immelman to accommodate "commercial traffic" that was overtaking her, changing runways multiple times and more |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 3:26:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Damn. That is horrible. RIP
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 3:26:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know how all of the above work. I was under the impression that O2 was only available as an option on the Turbo models. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 3:30:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm a doctor but not a pilot. My dad was a pilot, and aviation fascinates me. Flying around ID/MT/WY, he developed a healthy respect for how easy it is to die in mountains. Beware the box canyon.
This scenario seems on the wrong side of the risk/benefit line. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
High altitude mountain flying at night in a single engine recip! What could wrong? My dad was a pilot, and aviation fascinates me. Flying around ID/MT/WY, he developed a healthy respect for how easy it is to die in mountains. Beware the box canyon.
This scenario seems on the wrong side of the risk/benefit line. I know, that was a bit tasteless. But people need to respect the shit that will absolutely kill them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 4:39:14 PM EDT
[#6]
What do pilots and air traffic controllers have in common?
When the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. When ATC screws up, the pilot dies. Not a knock on ATC.
If ATC is asking you to do something you are unsure of, just tell them you are unable, then tell them what you need. Most will try to accomodate if you speak up. They can't read minds, and they don't know if you only fly once in blue moon or you fly 5 times a week. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 4:44:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey! I'm a real pilot too! In all seriousness, I've done some VFR low level flying over the Colorado Rockies. It can be sporty with the wind shear and downdrafts. What is the service ceiling on a single engine cirrus anyway? They are unpressurized I assume. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 4:45:12 PM EDT
[#8]
VFR into IMC? I know that's a super common one that kills inexperienced pilots. Not sure what the weather was like at the time.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 4:46:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Were they flying VFR? No such thing as VFR at night in my mind. Trying to fly VFR at night surrounded by mountains is a death wish. Night mountainous terrain VFR is a really bad idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 4:48:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Night VFR in a single is a calculated risk. I've done a few hundred hours of it, and some have many thousands of hours doing it. Night mountainous terrain VFR is a really bad idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 4:51:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Night VFR in AK sucks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 4:56:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
VFR into IMC? I know that's a super common one that kills inexperienced pilots. Not sure what the weather was like at the time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 5:06:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you imagine doing it prior to RNAV? |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 5:23:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Update 2 in the first post reports that the pilot got his license this year. Of course not all news reports are factual.
From the FAA pilot database: Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT Date of Issue: 3/1/2017 |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 5:31:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems almost daily/weekly that these "hobbysts" crash themselves and kill themselves and their passaengers I am going to bet this kills a lot of "hobbyists". I had another coworker buy a high wing Cessna fixed gear plane. He said he didn't want events transpiring in flight to be occurring any faster than they did in that Cessna. He eventually sold his plane about 10 years later, still breathing, not an arrogant guy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:34:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I worked with a mechanical engineer that built a Mooney. He was an arrogant sob. He full-throttle augered it into the side of a mountain killing both himself and his wife. ATC had already turned back a 737, yet he thought he could make it. I am going to bet this kills a lot of "hobbyists". I had another coworker buy a high wing Cessna fixed gear plane. He said he didn't want events transpiring in flight to be occurring any faster than they did in that Cessna. He eventually sold his plane about 10 years later, still breathing, not an arrogant guy. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:39:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Night VFR in AK sucks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Night VFR in a single is a calculated risk. I've done a few hundred hours of it, and some have many thousands of hours doing it. Night mountainous terrain VFR is a really bad idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:40:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on where you are. On the north slope with a clear night sky it was simply awesome. You could see the village's and town's mercury vapor lights from 100 miles (or more) away. No terrain and no need for GPS.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:44:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bristol Bay Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Depends on where you are. On the north slope with a clear night sky it was simply awesome. You could see the village's and town's mercury vapor lights from 100 miles (or more) away. No terrain and no need for GPS. I had a base manager ask me to fly into Anaktuvuk Pass one night when the weather was shitty and snowing to beat the band. I laughed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:50:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Look at what plane used to have that tail number: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=3469
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:51:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at what plane used to have that tail number: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=3469 It's a cursed tail number. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:55:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
High altitude mountain flying at night in a single engine recip! What could wrong? TC |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 7:56:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at what plane used to have that tail number: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=3469 |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 8:03:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
High altitude mountain flying at night in a single engine recip! What could wrong? But some pretty experienced military folks crashed. The 1954 crash was a military transport that hit the side of Mt. Moran (12,500') in a storm. The wreckage is all down the lower Skillet Glacier where avalanches pushed it. You pass pieces of airplane when you climb that route. During the 1988 Yellowstone fires they found a mostly intact B-17 that went down after the crew bailed out in the forties. Machine guns and everything. During Bill Clinton's visit to Jackson Hole a military transport with his stuff crashed into Sleeping Indian Mountain when departing. They apparently ignored the flight directions for leaving. They missed clearing the ridge by about twenty feet. I've been to the site. A number of folks have flown light planes into mountain canyons around here and couldn't clear the head of the canyon, or turn around. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 8:07:19 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mountain wave happened Wave would not be the first weather situation to investigate at that location this time of year. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 8:12:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Source "GLENWOOD SPRINGS, Colo. — A Colorado family of four has been identified as the victims of a fatal small airplane crash. Update 1: One source has the crash happening around 1000 PM (may have been around 800 PM MDT). Actually they lost radar contact which can be normal in the west. If that point is near the crash site it still shows that they were flying in the mountains at night. Source Thats a Denver based network....10pm to them is MDT |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 8:19:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at what plane used to have that tail number: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=3469 Pilot reportedly had four hours in type. Cause of accident: FAILED TO OBTAIN/MAINTAIN FLYING SPEED |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 8:27:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
'cause a doctor could never be smart enough to fly a plane safely? I'm too lazy to google all the corporate/medical professionals who got their PPL and then killed themselves and their family doing stupid shit in airplanes. But the list is decades long. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 8:39:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The pioneers of aviation up here had more balls than brains. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 8:46:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doolittle had a lot of brains. PhD from MIT. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The pioneers of aviation up here had more balls than brains. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:05:01 PM EDT
[#31]
OK this might be a dumb question.
If your aircraft can do 17,500, and the highest peak along your route is about 11,000ft (Steamboat to Moab doesn't cross high ranges)... and vis is bad because night/weather/whatever... why do you not maintain 13,000ft? I'm guessing the answer is they are willing to pay for a SR22 parachute, but not an O2 system. I'm just the guy who goes and picks up the pieces of people when they crash (and I"ve picked up a SR22 CFIT on a missed approach at night, family lived). Fun fact, the ELT doesn't work if it burns in the crash (182T that stalled avoiding terrain in IFR weather, whole family burned too) |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:08:48 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doolittle had a lot of brains. PhD from MIT. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:15:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK this might be a dumb question. If your aircraft can do 17,500, and the highest peak along your route is about 11,000ft (Steamboat to Moab doesn't cross high ranges)... and vis is bad because night/weather/whatever... why do you not maintain 13,000ft? I'm guessing the answer is they are willing to pay for a SR22 parachute, but not an O2 system. I'm just the guy who goes and picks up the pieces of people when they crash (and I"ve picked up a SR22 CFIT on a missed approach, family lived). Fun fact, the ELT doesn't work if it burns in the crash (182T that stalled avoiding terrain in IFR, whole family died) I don't feel comfortable in a car I've only been in for 4 hours. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:17:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK this might be a dumb question. If your aircraft can do 17,500, and the highest peak along your route is about 11,000ft (Steamboat to Moab doesn't cross high ranges)... and vis is bad because night/weather/whatever... why do you not maintain 13,000ft? I'm guessing the answer is they are willing to pay for a SR22 parachute, but not an O2 system. I'm just the guy who goes and picks up the pieces of people when they crash (and I"ve picked up a SR22 CFIT on a missed approach, family lived). Fun fact, the ELT doesn't work if it burns in the crash (182T that stalled avoiding terrain in IFR, whole family died) Who knows, maybe he just didn't have the performance to out climb the Rockies. Or maybe he had a malfunction. But I'm betting on inexperience, disorientation, and flying a perfect good airplane into the side of a mountain. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:24:14 PM EDT
[#35]
I was reading about this crash in the Aspen paper this morning. Barring an engine failure I am a betting man that says CFIT. Flying a single engine aircraft in the rocky's isn't a joke and it isn't for the inexperienced....night time isn't for anyone. I watched a clown in a SR-22 (it seems to attract them) doing touch and gos in pitch black dark at Aspen airport one night.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:25:03 PM EDT
[#36]
The bright side: at least they all died together. They didn't leave orphans.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:34:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK this might be a dumb question. If your aircraft can do 17,500, and the highest peak along your route is about 11,000ft (Steamboat to Moab doesn't cross high ranges)... and vis is bad because night/weather/whatever... why do you not maintain 13,000ft? I'm guessing the answer is they are willing to pay for a SR22 parachute, but not an O2 system. Unknown. First I would not fly that route at night. If I had to in order to save Trump, then I would have been at 14,500 feet if that was adequate terrain clearance or 16,500 feet. We know there were cloud layers. What I do not know is cloud tops. I don't fly in clouds. I have seen enough to place the highest causal factors as flying into terrain or entered clouds and departed controlled flight. The flight should never have been attempted. What I lack in training and experience I make up for in superior Go-No Go judgement. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 9:45:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unknown. First I would not fly that route at night. If I had to in order to save Trump, then I would have been at 14,500 feet if that was adequate terrain clearance or 16,500 feet. We know there were cloud layers. What I do not know is cloud tops. I don't fly in clouds. I have seen enough to place the highest causal factors as flying into terrain or entered clouds and departed controlled flight. The flight should never have been attempted. What I lack in training and experience I make up for in superior Go-No Go judgement. Single engine airplane at night in the Rockies. Things can go bad quickly. Could have found himself boxed in by terrain, but unable to climb due to IMC/icing potential.... Probably never should have even taken off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:00:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would have been at 14,500 feet if that was adequate terrain clearance Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would have been at 14,500 feet if that was adequate terrain clearance I don't fly in clouds. I always wanted to be a pilot (like dad and granddad) but I don't really live in a place conducive to learning. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:05:05 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Update 2 in the first post reports that the pilot got his license this year. Of course not all news reports are factual. From the FAA pilot database: Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT Date of Issue: 3/1/2017 Mine is dated 2015, but I've held a pilot certificate since 1993. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:14:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Update 2 in the first post reports that the pilot got his license this year. Of course not all news reports are factual. From the FAA pilot database: Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT Date of Issue: 3/1/2017
I wouldn't feel confident in flying a Cirrus until I had at least 500hrs in a 172 |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:16:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was reading about this crash in the Aspen paper this morning. Barring an engine failure I am a betting man that says CFIT. Flying a single engine aircraft in the rocky's isn't a joke and it isn't for the inexperienced....night time isn't for anyone. I watched a clown in a SR-22 (it seems to attract them) doing touch and gos in pitch black dark at Aspen airport one night. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:24:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is just the date of the most recent issuance. It could be when he initially got it, but there no way of knowing with just a simple search. Mine is dated 2015, but I've held a pilot certificate since 1993. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:28:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is adequate terrain clearance? Is the primary concern turbulence or other weather effects in the clouds? Some clouds don't seem to have updrafts or precip... if so, if you are IFR, why can't you just fly by instruments? Maybe that's a dumb question from a guy who played a lot of flight sim with instruments... I always wanted to be a pilot (like dad and granddad) but I don't really live in a place conducive to learning. As far as clouds, I am not instrument rated. The plane I flew was not equipped to fly in icing conditions. Bottom line I am a fair weather pilot but have dealt with less than ideal flying conditions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:30:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is adequate terrain clearance? Is the primary concern turbulence or other weather effects in the clouds? Some clouds don't seem to have updrafts or precip... if so, if you are IFR, why can't you just fly by instruments? Maybe that's a dumb question from a guy who played a lot of flight sim with instruments... I always wanted to be a pilot (like dad and granddad) but I don't really live in a place conducive to learning. Unless you have an Instrument rating, and are on an IFR clearance, its against the rules to fly in clouds. Over the Rockies at night, I'm sure icing was a concern as well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 10:49:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Rules? Shit there aren't any rules. There might be a recommendation.
Last time I flew in the Sawtooth, the group of planes that went up there acted like it was a contest to see who could scrape bellies on top of the mountains. 
It was spooky watching it from behind. The plane I was in always maintained plenty of safety margin. Most of the other guys though, they didn't give a shit. At least if the engine quit and they collided on the side of the peak, they wouldn't have to worry about surviving that one. Because if they survived the crash, the cartwheel cleared back the fucking bottom would probably do them in at least. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 11:00:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Strangely enough, we are quite close to the Rockies and the Continental Divide and lose very few aircraft in the mountains.
Having flown VFR through the mountains several times is a very enlightening experience and a teaching tool. Plan your trip in daylight and cancel it if weather conditions are not favourable. Canyon flying in a 150 makes you respect looking up at mountains because you cannot fly over the top of them RIP to the dead family.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 11:10:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Strangely enough, we are quite close to the Rockies and the Continental Divide and lose very few aircraft in the mountains. Having flown VFR through the mountains several times is a very enlightening experience and a teaching tool. Plan your trip in daylight and cancel it if weather conditions are not favourable. Canyon flying in a 150 makes you respect looking up at mountains because you cannot fly over the top of them RIP to the dead family. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 11:16:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Regardless of ATC, nobody but the pilot crashed that plane. "Unable" is a seldom used term by non professional pilots, but is often warranted. She should have been more assertive, and at a minimum maintained control of the airplane. Don't drop the plane to fly the radios. If you can't or don't want to do it. Don't, but convey that message clearly. If plan C is to go spin circles over some point in the airspace until it traffic dies down until you're comfortable that's fine. I had that happen a few weeks ago. A guy wasn't comfortable getting worked in with corporate jets/ air carriers so I stuck him somewhere safe until things got quiet. Then I let him do his thing on a 11kft ft runway. It's a lot of space for a decathlon to play. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2017 11:35:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on where you are. On the north slope with a clear night sky it was simply awesome. You could see the village's and town's mercury vapor lights from 100 miles (or more) away. No terrain and no need for GPS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Night VFR in a single is a calculated risk. I've done a few hundred hours of it, and some have many thousands of hours doing it. Night mountainous terrain VFR is a really bad idea. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
