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Posted: 9/18/2017 11:41:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at what plane used to have that tail number: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=3469 think they will recycle it again? |
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Posted: 9/18/2017 11:53:01 PM EDT
[#2]
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Unable is a great word. If you can't or don't want to do it. Don't, but convey that message clearly. If plan C is to go spin circles over some point in the airspace until it traffic dies down until you're comfortable that's fine. I had that happen a few weeks ago. A guy wasn't comfortable getting worked in with corporate jets/ air carriers so I stuck him somewhere safe until things got quiet. Then I let him do his thing on a 11kft ft runway. It's a lot of space for a decathlon to play. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 2:06:18 AM EDT
[#3]
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I took off for Barrow once at minus 28 in a 206, there was a clear spot on the windscreen about 1in x 4 in. when we landed half frozen in Atkasuck 30 minutes later it was about 1/4th clear, we needed gps |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 2:13:32 AM EDT
[#4]
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the chute is an option on them, but not all of them have them i think. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 7:54:48 AM EDT
[#5]
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When I was in the bush there were stupid situations that I refused to put myself in voluntarily, that's one of them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I took off for Barrow once at minus 28 in a 206, there was a clear spot on the windscreen about 1in x 4 in. when we landed half frozen in Atkasuck 30 minutes later it was about 1/4th clear, we needed gps |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 8:09:40 AM EDT
[#6]
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They all have them, but it isn't a cure-all. There are a lot of conditions where a whole-aircraft parachute won't help at all. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 8:12:05 AM EDT
[#7]
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Parachute won't help at all if you fly into the side of a mountain wide open. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They all have them, but it isn't a cure-all. There are a lot of conditions where a whole-aircraft parachute won't help at all. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 10:15:53 AM EDT
[#8]
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What'sa matter? Afraid of icing conditions in an aircraft with zero anti-ice protection? What, ya wanna live forever? |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:35:15 AM EDT
[#9]
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6 months and already in a Cirrus.... 
I wouldn't feel confident in flying a Cirrus until I had at least 500hrs in a 172 Edit: Read another article stating he was just licensed this year. 10,000' + on the terrain in the area he was flying over as well. No instrument rating. And that area at night would be dark. Very few lights on the ground. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:40:48 AM EDT
[#10]
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what is your opinion of the Hobby crash? |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:44:09 AM EDT
[#11]
I see no difference in some douche in a $300k+ plane and some douche in a $300k+ sports car.
But ymmv excuse me while I go be poor somewhere else. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:59:17 AM EDT
[#12]
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If he had added on an instrument rating earlier this year it would still say that. He could have been licensed years ago. If that wasn't the case he was a fucking idiot. At night in mountainous terrain without am instrument rating with such limited experience would be incredibly fucking stupid. The world is full of incredibly stupid people though. Some of them have a lot of money also. Edit: Read another article stating he was just licensed this year. 10,000' + on the terrain in the area he was flying over as well. No instrument rating. And that area at night would be dark. Very few lights on the ground. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
6 months and already in a Cirrus....
I wouldn't feel confident in flying a Cirrus until I had at least 500hrs in a 172 Edit: Read another article stating he was just licensed this year. 10,000' + on the terrain in the area he was flying over as well. No instrument rating. And that area at night would be dark. Very few lights on the ground. Because this man was a moron he killed his whole family for what?? just to try and make it home? |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:59:51 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see no difference in some douche in a $300k+ plane and some douche in a $300k+ sports car. But ymmv excuse me while I go be poor somewhere else. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 12:51:16 PM EDT
[#14]
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I see no difference in some douche in a $300k+ plane and some douche in a $300k+ sports car. But ymmv excuse me while I go be poor somewhere else. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 1:11:49 PM EDT
[#15]
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The sr22 is the new Bonanza. Damn. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 1:18:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unable could have gone a long way there. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 1:21:27 PM EDT
[#17]
I gave my view of the two most probable causes for the crash yesterday. That does not rule out engine failure, fuel exhaustion, multiple mechanical/structural problems, Meteorite impact, aliens, Godzilla, volcanic eruptions and many other reasons.
If we had radar data (altitude and speed) and aircraft and terrain impact pictures, that could substantiate or refute my guess. They were headed from home to Moab, Utah with the family dog. Why they did not leave three hours sooner or the next day during daylight is unknown. It is possible that earlier was bad weather. That overcast condition appeared to still exist during their flight. |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 1:37:44 PM EDT
[#18]
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RIP Family....amazing how many pilots we have in GD... |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 5:16:49 PM EDT
[#19]
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They'll always tell you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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RIP Family....amazing how many pilots we have in GD... |
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Posted: 9/19/2017 9:21:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone needs to invent a "pilot-doctor". |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 2:56:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATC crashed that plane Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Local family flying into Hobby crashed their Cirrus into a parking lot a few years back...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPo5yuLbvcoThey call themselves "controllers", but what they really do, is offer suggestions to separate traffic. Pilots control the airplane. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 4:38:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Night single engine VFR in mountains up to 10,000 feet with a pilot that has been a pilot for a year is not a situation for success.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 4:59:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Rockies can be bad enough in an actual big fucking airplane like a 787, single engine doctor killer?Hell no.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:02:00 AM EDT
[#24]
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Night single engine VFR in mountains up to 10,000 feet with a pilot that has been a pilot for a year is not a situation for success.  ) when I was a kid (15/16yrs old) flying '150's and '152's out of Salem Aviation as
a student Pilot in the late '70's. I remember reading Flying Magazine's "Aftermath" section back then and it "seemed" to always be the same old stuff. Some guy with 150hrs decides to load his whole family (Including pets and children!) into an airplane on a hot summer day, overloads it, and runs it right into terrain just after TO...OR, dude that's in a hurry (Has to get back home quick) and flies VFR into IFR ('thought that he could beat the weather) OR....dude that's too tired to fly safely but loads up some people he loves anyway and manages to kill them all. The one that really stuck out at me happened around here a couple of decades ago. Youngster had all of 15-16hrs in a '152. He'd solo'd and then convinced his GF and best friend to go flying with him at night. The GF was in the "Child Seat". It took 3-4 days to find the wreck. Fuckin' stupid.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 8:37:11 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's something that I always found "amazing" ( ) when I was a kid (15/16yrs old) flying '150's and '152's out of Salem Aviation as
a student Pilot in the late '70's. I remember reading Flying Magazine's "Aftermath" section back then and it "seemed" to always be the same old stuff. Some guy with 150hrs decides to load his whole family (Including pets and children!) into an airplane on a hot summer day, overloads it, and runs it right into terrain just after TO...OR, dude that's in a hurry (Has to get back home quick) and flies VFR into IFR ('thought that he could beat the weather) OR....dude that's too tired to fly safely but loads up some people he loves anyway and manages to kill them all. The one that really stuck out at me happened around here a couple of decades ago. Youngster had all of 15-16hrs in a '152. He'd solo'd and then convinced his GF and best friend to go flying with him at night. The GF was in the "Child Seat". It took 3-4 days to find the wreck. Fuckin' stupid. After Bud Holland crashed his B-52 killing 4 people in 1992, the AF swore it would never happen again. Fast forward 15 years, and the same thing happened again. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:16:43 PM EDT
[#26]
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If there is one thing that pilot training does a poor job of, its explaining the pilot/controller "magic words." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Unable could have gone a long way there. I try and read everything I can, and talk with pilots that I respect, so that I can learn as much as possible. It isn't the fact that the learning curve is steep, it's that it is unforgiving. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:33:20 PM EDT
[#27]
The following article summarizes most of what has been covered here:
Kathryn's Report The one item that is new is the unverified report that there were thunderstorms along the route. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:37:14 PM EDT
[#28]
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The following article summarizes most of what has been covered here: Kathryn's Report The one item that is new is the unverified report that there were thunderstorms along the route. But his plane had a parachute! |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:42:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Nvm, not worth it.
I feel bad for them. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:44:53 PM EDT
[#30]
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Poor family. Lets all say the Cirrus is like owning a P51! Yay internet know it alls. Fucking GD. I swear. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:46:07 PM EDT
[#31]
If a Cirrus was involved its always:
"Holy shit that is high performance" Lets focus more on possible poor planning or just shitty luck. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 5:52:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a Cirrus was involved its always: "Holy shit that is high performance" Lets focus more on possible poor planning or just shitty luck. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 6:39:56 PM EDT
[#33]
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Lol gotcha. That thing puts out what, 300 hp? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If a Cirrus was involved its always: "Holy shit that is high performance" Lets focus more on possible poor planning or just shitty luck. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 6:45:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a Cirrus was involved its always: "Holy shit that is high performance" Lets focus more on possible poor planning or just shitty luck. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 6:56:42 PM EDT
[#35]
My guess is that he probably wasn't behind the airplane, he just allowed his inexperience to put him in a situation he didn't know how to get out of.
At night, with high mountains and low ceilings. By the time he realized he was in a situation for which he wasn't trained, it was too late. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 7:01:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My guess is that he probably wasn't behind the airplane, he just allowed his inexperience to put him in a situation he didn't know how to get out of. At night, with high mountains and low ceilings. By the time he realized he was in a situation for which he wasn't trained, it was too late. I agree with you. This one wasn't an aircraft performance issue. This guy didn't have a plan. Or at least if he did, it wasn't an adequate one for success. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 7:07:36 PM EDT
[#37]
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I live in the mountains above Jackson Hole. Just off the top of my head I can think of about twenty planes that have gone down in the mountains around here going back to 1954. A lot of them were general aviation pilots, several doctors, who got in trouble with mountain waves or icing. Several of them killed their families. But some pretty experienced military folks crashed. The 1954 crash was a military transport that hit the side of Mt. Moran (12,500') in a storm. The wreckage is all down the lower Skillet Glacier where avalanches pushed it. You pass pieces of airplane when you climb that route. During the 1988 Yellowstone fires they found a mostly intact B-17 that went down after the crew bailed out in the forties. Machine guns and everything. During Bill Clinton's visit to Jackson Hole a military transport with his stuff crashed into Sleeping Indian Mountain when departing. They apparently ignored the flight directions for leaving. They missed clearing the ridge by about twenty feet. I've been to the site. A number of folks have flown light planes into mountain canyons around here and couldn't clear the head of the canyon, or turn around. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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High altitude mountain flying at night in a single engine recip! What could wrong? But some pretty experienced military folks crashed. The 1954 crash was a military transport that hit the side of Mt. Moran (12,500') in a storm. The wreckage is all down the lower Skillet Glacier where avalanches pushed it. You pass pieces of airplane when you climb that route. During the 1988 Yellowstone fires they found a mostly intact B-17 that went down after the crew bailed out in the forties. Machine guns and everything. During Bill Clinton's visit to Jackson Hole a military transport with his stuff crashed into Sleeping Indian Mountain when departing. They apparently ignored the flight directions for leaving. They missed clearing the ridge by about twenty feet. I've been to the site. A number of folks have flown light planes into mountain canyons around here and couldn't clear the head of the canyon, or turn around. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 7:07:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I was speaking in generalities regarding the nature of trouble novice cirrus owners sometimes find themselves in. I agree with you. This one wasn't an aircraft performance issue. This guy didn't have a plan. Or at least if he did, it wasn't an adequate one for success. Do PPLs have the training to maintain a wings level climb off their ADI until reaching a min safe altitude or VFR on top in an emergency situation? |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 3:21:34 AM EDT
[#39]
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I have zero civilian flight training. When pursuing a PPL how hard is the point driven home to maintain VMC at all costs? If this guy was a brand new pilot, is it possible that he was attempting to maintain VMC below the overcast ceilings, even to the point where he flew into the side of a mountain? That is where my mind is taking this mishap. Do PPLs have the training to maintain a wings level climb off their ADI until reaching a min safe altitude or VFR on top in an emergency situation? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, I was speaking in generalities regarding the nature of trouble novice cirrus owners sometimes find themselves in. I agree with you. This one wasn't an aircraft performance issue. This guy didn't have a plan. Or at least if he did, it wasn't an adequate one for success. Do PPLs have the training to maintain a wings level climb off their ADI until reaching a min safe altitude or VFR on top in an emergency situation? The thing about the Cirrus, and JonJon's Piper, and all those assorted Dr killers, is that they have nice autopilots which lull shitty pilots into situations from which they can't escape. Perhaps you've heard the term "Staying ahead of the airplane" or "Hanging on to the tail"? Well, those pilots are Miles behind their airplane, but the bright lights and autopilots have them fat, dumb, and happy until it's too late. Flying in the Rocky Mountains in any non pressurized recip, is stupid. Doing it at night, is unwise, even for professionals. For that guy? It was suicide. The real crime is that he killed his family too. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:26:59 AM EDT
[#40]
So sad and I feel terrible for the rest of their family.
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Posted: 9/21/2017 11:35:37 AM EDT
[#41]
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If a Cirrus was involved its always: "Holy shit that is high performance" Lets focus more on possible poor planning or just shitty luck. Along comes the Cirrus, with a single power lever, fixed gear, and flaps. It's been my impression that some people skip or shortchange the "complex" endorsement part that traditionally has come along with it. Acft for that endorsement have retractable gear, flaps, and a controllable prop pitch. To be clear, I'm no pilot and have no direct experience. I'm just in a very risk-aware specialty that understands the need to train progressively. We start with very basic "bread and butter" cases, working up the ability to handle greater task loading and complexity. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 1:39:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From a regulatory standpoint, it does require a "high performance" endorsement. That comes into play at 200hp. Along comes the Cirrus, with a single power lever, fixed gear, and flaps. It's been my impression that some people skip or shortchange the "complex" endorsement part that traditionally has come along with it. Acft for that endorsement have retractable gear, flaps, and a controllable prop pitch. To be clear, I'm no pilot and have no direct experience. I'm just in a very risk-aware specialty that understands the need to train progressively. We start with very basic "bread and butter" cases, working up the ability to handle greater task loading and complexity. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 1:40:37 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The cirrus has taken the place of the bonanza for the wealthy "anyone can fly a plane" types. It is somewhat relevant as a 300hp single is not really for the inexperienced Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If a Cirrus was involved its always: "Holy shit that is high performance" Lets focus more on possible poor planning or just shitty luck. There was a similar pilot here. Lot's of money, no experience, and his Cirrus was not fast enough to travel between Denver and St. Louis, so he was looking for something else with more speed. No instrument rating at the time, but he was jonesing to get into the stratosphere on oxygen. 
Fixes like that grind my gears. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 1:53:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well that explains the prop lever I couldn't find last time I sat in one. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 2:14:57 PM EDT
[#45]
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While the PIC is ultimately responsible. ATC needs to hang for this one! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Local family flying into Hobby crashed their Cirrus into a parking lot a few years back... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPo5yuLbvco |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 3:39:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Flying in the Rocky Mountains in any non pressurized recip, is stupid. Doing it at night, is unwise, even for professionals. For that guy? It was suicide. The real crime is that he killed his family too. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 4:52:45 PM EDT
[#47]
I'm an engineer, not a doctor, and I fly a Bonanza. I have the utmost respect for the machine, the weather, the terrain, and my personal limitations. I have my instrument rating, commercial license and use and practice as often as the budget allows. There have been times where I am not up to the flight. I may be tired, not feeling 100%, bad weather, or even bad weather a couple days out for the return flight. If passengers are involved, I choose better weather. No one likes to be bounced around and I do not want upset passengers. There is another day.
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Posted: 9/21/2017 5:15:14 PM EDT
[#48]
You fly the plane, not the radio. Pilot stalled and spun in regardless of pinhead ATC guy.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATC crashed that plane |
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Posted: 9/22/2017 3:08:31 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From a regulatory standpoint, it does require a "high performance" endorsement. That comes into play at 200hp. Along comes the Cirrus, with a single power lever, fixed gear, and flaps. It's been my impression that some people skip or shortchange the "complex" endorsement part that traditionally has come along with it. Acft for that endorsement have retractable gear, flaps, and a controllable prop pitch. To be clear, I'm no pilot and have no direct experience. I'm just in a very risk-aware specialty that understands the need to train progressively. We start with very basic "bread and butter" cases, working up the ability to handle greater task loading and complexity. |
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Posted: 9/22/2017 8:54:23 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just to make sure you understand the concept of complex or high performance... You are aware that an F18 requires neither a high performance or complex endorsement, correct? Neither does any passenger or military jet. |
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