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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:25:29 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In WWI, there were international committees that were proposing a ban on shotguns in warfare because they were so devastating in the trenches. Seeing all these tiny drones stalking soldiers in Ukraine, I think a shotgun would be the most effective way to take one down before it hit you. My understnding is that they never even know the drone is there. The drone usage is some scary shit. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:27:46 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get both. 40mm buckshot is cool too. https://azaoinc.com/shop/ols/products/40mm-buckshot-round https://i.imgur.com/AjTlBg3.jpg Monica! 12g underneath  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:29:00 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seriously. Here's the good news: you don't need to ghost load your M4. Capacity is not much of a concern when we're dealing with a shotgun. A single well placed shot is usually sufficient to handle an individual threat. The only documented occasions I know of where somebody has needed more than one shot was the result of either not getting a solid hit the first time, or using ineffective ammunition. Scotty Reitz's book contains an account of a dude going for an AK who (because somebody got a bad mount on a gun with a stock that's too long most likely) took a full pattern of buckshot into one arm but kept going for the AK in the corner, requiring a second round in the chest that stopped the fight. A client of mine was overseas when the house he was in was attacked by armored bad guys. With the 6 rounds of his 870 he cracked the body armor of two threats. One his teammate finished with a head shot from an M4. The rest he handled with failure drills after cracking the armor. Except the one guy who he got a little high on and missed the armor entirely, punching a chunk of his spine out the back. In class I joke that you aren't going to have to kill a helicopter full of ninjas in home defense. That last part is becoming less true. The gang breaking into your house, to steal your guns, has body armor, radios and might arrive by helicopter, bearcat or mrap. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:30:24 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Get both. 40mm buckshot is cool too. https://azaoinc.com/shop/ols/products/40mm-buckshot-round https://i.imgur.com/AjTlBg3.jpg Monica! 12g underneath https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/184182/IMG_0195_jpeg-3028328.JPG US mil 40MM buckshot is weaker than 12 Guage |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:30:31 AM EST
[#5]
OP has been sipping to much of his own bourbon.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:37:40 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right tool for the job and all that. There is no cheaper or easier way to put down more significant damage from a shoulder fired weapon. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know and work within its limitations either. Go to :54. Semi graphic.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpu6XgtS02wHow many here are going to be stepping into combat tomorrow? Do you own more guns than you can carry into combat at one time? Or is it a preference or financial issue that you’re validating by saying a gun has no purpose? Buy guns. Shoot guns. Have fun and learn skills you will hopefully never need. Some legit "meat from bone" right there. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:37:48 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not trying to be a dick, but have you ever been to a 3 gun match? Saigas fail constantly. I understand that there are a few gunsmiths that can get them to run OK, but it is a $3k+ job. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Absolutely nothing is better, for home defense, than a Saiga-12 with a 20 round drum. Period, the end. Not trying to be a dick, but have you ever been to a 3 gun match? Saigas fail constantly. I understand that there are a few gunsmiths that can get them to run OK, but it is a $3k+ job. My friend has a dissident and he’ll only run AA’s because cheap birdshot won’t cycle reliably. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:38:20 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't understand this statement. I can ghost load my M1super90 and leave the chamber empty. Why would the M-4 be any different? I guess it’s not. It always seems like the one on the carrier is the “extra” one, as every shotgun can have one in the chamber. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:54:25 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess it’s not. It always seems like the one on the carrier is the “extra” one, as every shotgun can have one in the chamber. You can load any semi-auto with a shell cutoff with one in the chamber, one on the lifter, and a full magazine tube. It's not necessary nor is it advisable to store the gun that way, but it's doable. There's just no need to do it. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:55:32 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Under certain situations an HD shtgun can be very effective at stopping a threat. But I can't argue with lots of recoil, slow to reload, and smaller capacity. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 11:11:10 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ALL THIS! If you think your shotgun "kicks like a mule" you're doing something wrong. Proper fit, particularly LOP is critical to handling a shotgun. Proper hold and stance a close second. Pistol grips on shotguns act like levers, accentuating perceived recoil. Particularly if the LOP is too long to begin with. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A couple of myths that should be dealt with: Recoil - Shotguns only kick you if you let them. You don't have to let them. Short stroking pump guns - This is almost always the result primarily of an ill-fitting shotgun. When people show up to class with the Mossberg 590 they bought at the gunstore because the guy at the counter told them it was good for hip firing (no, I'm not making that up, had a client who told me that Sunday) it comes with a stock that's entirely too long and that stretches them out on the gun, meaning they can't develop any power on the forend and that results in most of the short stroking. Putting them on a gun that has a stock on it that's not stupid usually results in that problem evaporating immediately. Stick somebody on a gun with a typical 14" LOP or even worse one of those even longer pistol-gripped pieces of shit and you get short stroking. ALL THIS! If you think your shotgun "kicks like a mule" you're doing something wrong. Proper fit, particularly LOP is critical to handling a shotgun. Proper hold and stance a close second. Pistol grips on shotguns act like levers, accentuating perceived recoil. Particularly if the LOP is too long to begin with. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 11:31:30 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can load any semi-auto with a shell cutoff with one in the chamber, one on the lifter, and a full magazine tube. It's not necessary nor is it advisable to store the gun that way, but it's doable. There's just no need to do it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I guess it’s not. It always seems like the one on the carrier is the “extra” one, as every shotgun can have one in the chamber. You can load any semi-auto with a shell cutoff with one in the chamber, one on the lifter, and a full magazine tube. It's not necessary nor is it advisable to store the gun that way, but it's doable. There's just no need to do it. You can do it on a Remington 11-48 too |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 11:41:34 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My friend has a dissident and he’ll only run AA’s because cheap birdshot won’t cycle reliably. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Absolutely nothing is better, for home defense, than a Saiga-12 with a 20 round drum. Period, the end. Not trying to be a dick, but have you ever been to a 3 gun match? Saigas fail constantly. I understand that there are a few gunsmiths that can get them to run OK, but it is a $3k+ job. My friend has a dissident and he’ll only run AA’s because cheap birdshot won’t cycle reliably. Weak ammo and/or ammo with soft hulls have always been the achilles heel of the Saiga and Vepr shotguns. I run 1300fps Win AA for birdshot and might have a failure to eject every 500-600rds in my V12, and it's usually the sign that I should have cleaned/lubed the gun two matches ago Buck or slugs generally run just fine (always test your ammo in your gun...some hulls/crimps do weird things in semis/mags) but the mystique of Saigas being fail monsters, while being fed Wally World bulk pack Federal 7.5 shot or 1100fps Win trap loads, will never go away. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:03:24 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lets see. I have 8 rounds in the 12ga. magazine, 9 00 buckshot per shell. I can put 72 projectiles in the air before you can. While you are reloading 2 more 30 rnd [rnags in your ar and fire a total of 72 rnds I have already reloaded 8 more rnds and fired another 72 projectiles. My house is at it's longest distance is 75 ft. I can cover center mass from the top of the head to the belt buckle. A door way at 7 yds will allow the 00buck to expand to cover the chest or head. At 25 yds my shot will shatter my patio doors, however no shot will leave my property so injuring my neighbors is not a problem. I keep my shot gun. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/175574/Resized952021110595135612-2195515.jpg @grizz272 9 pellet is the ghey just FYI, that extra flyer is the reason the Sheriff’s Office I work for does not use 9 pellet buck. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:13:17 PM EST
[#15]
Combat shotguns are stupid?
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:16:30 PM EST
[#16]
I’m going to argue in this thread again that loading splintering slugs is the best shotgun load from 0-100yards.
Buckshot is limited to 25yards and 50 yards for FCW. But a splintering slug? It flies like a slug but wounds like a slug and buckshot. It double your range with practical hits. No need mid fight to rechamber a slug. You don’t think about your load, you just load, aim, shoot!  Attached File Attached FileLoad development at 25yd.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:18:07 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryHonestly, this is the best rebuttal I’ve seen so far and should have been the first post. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:30:27 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The more distance you have to move the pump, the shorter you want the stock. Pretty much all shotguns come with stocks that are too long for anyone who is under 6'2" tall. Even for bird hunting they're excessive. In defensive shooting where we'd like to have a more squared up stance both to allow us to move most effectively and to prevent the shotgun from running us instead of the other way around, a significantly shorter stock is useful. For shooting airborne targets I prefer a 12.5-13" LOP. For defensive shooting 12" is about my sweet spot. (I'm 5'11", but have wide shoulders) People need to be taught to run the pump as hard as they can, but most of the time the reason they experience problems running the gun is that it's so long and far away from their core power that they struggle to make it work the way they need to. Truth. Swapping a Speedfeed IVS on my 870 had huge impact in that stretched out feeling, especially wearing armor. I liked the pistol grip too during some gun grab training, having my wrist squared on the stock and one hand on the fore end seemed to give me better control than the bad guy with even two hands on my barrel. It also let me "choke up" more when crossing funnels like doors greatly reducing the distance the muzzle projects in front of my eyes. It feels more AR like than a conventional stock which is good for my muscle memory. Personally my thoughts on shotguns is they can struggle or require modifications to meet my requirement to be ambidextrous. It took quite a bit of thought and a few ideas gone wrong on what safety I thought would work best. I ended up getting it sorted out, and I wouldnt feel disadvantaged using it over one of my ARs. The one thing to note about pumps I dont see discussed is the required room you need to cycle the weapon. I've got a bathroom for example that I'd like to be able to post up inside the doorway aiming down the hallway. The problem is its a corner fed rooms with the hinge tight to the door. You just dont have room to fit. I end up smacking my forearm on the door frame when trying to cycle, and the cramped situation isnt conducive to moving quickly if needed. Its less of an issue with an AR because I dont need to cycle it, and the weapon is a bit more compact. I imagine a SA shotgun would be a bit tighter than the AR but much better than the pump. Ultimately I dont think theres a direct fix, even an SBS mod wouldnt change it much. My plan is to try to use another area offering similar, but slightly worse angles. It does highlight the need to practice moving through your space and others to recognize when you are going to encounter restrictions. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:32:41 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shot is capable of going further than you think it will. Your idea of it not being able to leave your property is false. At a mear 27 degrees, #8 shot can travel ABOUT 230 yards. 00 buckshot ABOUT 66o yards, and a 12 g slug ABOUT 1200 yards. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lets see. I have 8 rounds in the 12ga. magazine, 9 00 buckshot per shell. I can put 72 projectiles in the air before you can. While you are reloading 2 more 30 rnd [rnags in your ar and fire a total of 72 rnds I have already reloaded 8 more rnds and fired another 72 projectiles. My house is at it's longest distance is 75 ft. I can cover center mass from the top of the head to the belt buckle. A door way at 7 yds will allow the 00buck to expand to cover the chest or head. At 25 yds my shot will shatter my patio doors, however no shot will leave my property so injuring my neighbors is not a problem. I keep my shot gun. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/175574/Resized952021110595135612-2195515.jpg Shot is capable of going further than you think it will. Your idea of it not being able to leave your property is false. At a mear 27 degrees, #8 shot can travel ABOUT 230 yards. 00 buckshot ABOUT 66o yards, and a 12 g slug ABOUT 1200 yards. Several states that opened up deer hunting to rifles in the last 20 years or so did so on a study which showed that 12 ga slugs retained more % mass and traveled further after pass through or on ricochets than even common "heavy" .30s like 30-06 and win mag. I believe the study was conducted in Michigan by their fish and game? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:44:37 PM EST
[#20]
Mossberg 930 is the answer.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:45:24 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shot is capable of going further than you think it will. Your idea of it not being able to leave your property is false. At a mear 27 degrees, #8 shot can travel ABOUT 230 yards. 00 buckshot ABOUT 66o yards, and a 12 g slug ABOUT 1200 yards. #8 shot that makes it 230 yards wouldn't go through a sheet of paper. Hell, #8 shot won't penetrate a t-shirt at over 50 yards. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:49:53 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mossberg 930 is the answer. Not that I've seen, outside of open guns probably the gun that's failed the most in competition. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:00:07 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m going to argue in this thread again that loading splintering slugs is the best shotgun load from 0-100yards. Buckshot is limited to 25yards and 50 yards for FCW. But a splintering slug? It flies like a slug but wounds like a slug and buckshot. It double your range with practical hits. No need mid fight to rechamber a slug. You don’t think about your load, you just load, aim, shoot! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9494_jpeg-3028450.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9451_jpeg-3028452.JPG Load development at 25yd. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9135_jpeg-3028454.JPG Weird looking fleshlights bro. But I’m not here to judge, you do you. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:02:29 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weird looking fleshlights bro. But I’m not here to judge, you do you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’m going to argue in this thread again that loading splintering slugs is the best shotgun load from 0-100yards. Buckshot is limited to 25yards and 50 yards for FCW. But a splintering slug? It flies like a slug but wounds like a slug and buckshot. It double your range with practical hits. No need mid fight to rechamber a slug. You don’t think about your load, you just load, aim, shoot! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9494_jpeg-3028450.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9451_jpeg-3028452.JPG Load development at 25yd. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9135_jpeg-3028454.JPG Weird looking fleshlights bro. But I’m not here to judge, you do you. Fisting sized fleshlights. 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:13:30 PM EST
[#25]
I look at it as ‘use the right tool for the right job’. Shotguns have a role. So do precision rifles.
Not everything is ‘do it all’. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:13:45 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going to argue in this thread again that loading splintering slugs is the best shotgun load from 0-100yards. Buckshot is limited to 25yards and 50 yards for FCW. But a splintering slug? It flies like a slug but wounds like a slug and buckshot. It double your range with practical hits. No need mid fight to rechamber a slug. You don't think about your load, you just load, aim, shoot! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9494_jpeg-3028450.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9451_jpeg-3028452.JPG Load development at 25yd. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9135_jpeg-3028454.JPG   |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:22:13 PM EST
[#27]
I have a shotgun for in house defense against intruders. But after watching Garand Thumbs video on how deadly shotguns are I really hope I never have to use it. Man what a mess they leave. I'd have to spend a fortune on professional cleanup.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:28:47 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In WWI, there were international committees that were proposing a ban on shotguns in warfare because they were so devastating in the trenches. Seeing all these tiny drones stalking soldiers in Ukraine, I think a shotgun would be the most effective way to take one down before it hit you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think I'd rather be in a trench up against a rifle than my Vepr 12. That thing is devastating. Chances that I'll be in that situation? Basically none so I'll stick to blasting clays with it. In WWI, there were international committees that were proposing a ban on shotguns in warfare because they were so devastating in the trenches. Seeing all these tiny drones stalking soldiers in Ukraine, I think a shotgun would be the most effective way to take one down before it hit you. I've never seen FMJ buckshot that didn't flatten out, so the germans had a point. You can read the actual diplomatic message sent. Unless you had the shotgun in hand, I don't think you'd take out a FPV drone that's hauling a RPG warhead, those are too fast. The loitering drones dropping grenades are high enough that you're not going to see them very often, and are out of practical shotgun range. Plenty of them are taken down with rifle fire though. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:48:53 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a shotgun for in house defense against intruders. But after watching Garand Thumbs video on how deadly shotguns are I really hope I never have to use it. Man what a mess they leave. I'd have to spend a fortune on professional cleanup. It wasn't all that long ago that a homeowner in Latin America used a shotgun to put down four cartel guys who showed up to do him harm. He stacked them like firewood outside the driveway next to the house, because "they were bleeding on my floors". There's a thread in the archives, somewhere, complete with video. My 20" (spare) barrel, fighting light equipped BPS sits cruiser ready in my master closet. With the plug out it has four 00 shells in the mag, and another six slugs in the sidesaddle. I don't lose a minute's sleep worrying about reloads beyond that point, and would suggest that if you do you should consider moving. I am 6'2" and have been duck hunting my entire adult life. Proficiency and comfort with your choice of HD trump all, IMO. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:00:59 PM EST
[#30]
At typical inside-the-home distances, I can't think of a deadlier weapon than a SG loaded with buck. But like anything else, it has limitations.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:07:25 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 1899 Hague convention that the WW1 combatants had signed up for prohibited "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body". I've never seen FMJ buckshot that didn't flatten out, so the germans had a point. You can read the actual diplomatic message sent. Unless you had the shotgun in hand, I don't think you'd take out a FPV drone that's hauling a RPG warhead, those are too fast. The loitering drones dropping grenades are high enough that you're not going to see them very often, and are out of practical shotgun range. Plenty of them are taken down with rifle fire though. The Hague convention prohibits bullets designed to expand. The buckshot was not designed to expand, just as the hollow point match bullets are not designed to expand. (They are designed to be accurate). You have to understand the original intent of the designer, not the performance of the projectile. Bullets which are designed to expand or flatten easily, which actually don't would be prohibited, while those that were not designed to flatten or expand easily, but actually do could be used legitimately. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:09:05 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The argument that they "suck" because they are not the best is the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy. But GD gonna GD...... If you're not first, you're last. 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:44:33 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My understnding is that they never even know the drone is there. The drone usage is some scary shit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In WWI, there were international committees that were proposing a ban on shotguns in warfare because they were so devastating in the trenches. Seeing all these tiny drones stalking soldiers in Ukraine, I think a shotgun would be the most effective way to take one down before it hit you. My understnding is that they never even know the drone is there. The drone usage is some scary shit. Yeah. Whether it's the ones dropping stuff from way above shotgun range (high enough, the soldiers don't know they're even up there), or the suicide drones, where by the time you're aware they're coming at you, you probably have just enough time to think, "Shit..." |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:46:49 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That last part is becoming less true. The gang breaking into your house, to steal your guns, has body armor, radios and might arrive by helicopter, bearcat or mrap. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Seriously. Here's the good news: you don't need to ghost load your M4. Capacity is not much of a concern when we're dealing with a shotgun. A single well placed shot is usually sufficient to handle an individual threat. The only documented occasions I know of where somebody has needed more than one shot was the result of either not getting a solid hit the first time, or using ineffective ammunition. Scotty Reitz's book contains an account of a dude going for an AK who (because somebody got a bad mount on a gun with a stock that's too long most likely) took a full pattern of buckshot into one arm but kept going for the AK in the corner, requiring a second round in the chest that stopped the fight. A client of mine was overseas when the house he was in was attacked by armored bad guys. With the 6 rounds of his 870 he cracked the body armor of two threats. One his teammate finished with a head shot from an M4. The rest he handled with failure drills after cracking the armor. Except the one guy who he got a little high on and missed the armor entirely, punching a chunk of his spine out the back. In class I joke that you aren't going to have to kill a helicopter full of ninjas in home defense. That last part is becoming less true. The gang breaking into your house, to steal your guns, has body armor, radios and might arrive by helicopter, bearcat or mrap. In which case, a 5.56 is also not going to work so well. Better have some Boomba Roombas handy *** Although... if you're a BattleBots fan, something like Tombstone would scare the bejesus out of anyone. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:46:50 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Had a guy on my team carry one in a scabbard on his back on the streets of Iraq circa 2009. He got more respect than the guys with an M4. There's some cultural fear of it. It was my understanding that the service dogs got the same type of response. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:49:19 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m going to argue in this thread again that loading splintering slugs is the best shotgun load from 0-100yards. Buckshot is limited to 25yards and 50 yards for FCW. But a splintering slug? It flies like a slug but wounds like a slug and buckshot. It double your range with practical hits. No need mid fight to rechamber a slug. You don’t think about your load, you just load, aim, shoot! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9494_jpeg-3028450.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9451_jpeg-3028452.JPG Load development at 25yd. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9135_jpeg-3028454.JPG I've got a bunch of Hexolit 32 *** they weren't $4/rd back then  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019157745 |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:54:36 PM EST
[#37]
BTW, Someone was asking about 8-pellet 00 Flite Control?
Restocked $65 for 50 (Hornady 8-pellet Critical Defense is usually $2/rd) https://www.recoilgunworks.com/federal-le-tactical-12ga-2-75-8-pellet-00-buck/ |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:57:10 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m going to argue in this thread again that loading splintering slugs is the best shotgun load from 0-100yards. Buckshot is limited to 25yards and 50 yards for FCW. But a splintering slug? It flies like a slug but wounds like a slug and buckshot. It double your range with practical hits. No need mid fight to rechamber a slug. You don’t think about your load, you just load, aim, shoot! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9494_jpeg-3028450.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9451_jpeg-3028452.JPG Load development at 25yd. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9135_jpeg-3028454.JPG You load those? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 3:00:30 PM EST
[#40]
There is a vast difference between fighting in a desert/city setting and in or near your home.
Guns are like golf clubs. Playing 18 holes with a putter doesn't work well either but it can be done. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 3:37:06 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That last part is becoming less true. The gang breaking into your house, to steal your guns, has body armor, radios and might arrive by helicopter, bearcat or mrap. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Seriously. Here's the good news: you don't need to ghost load your M4. Capacity is not much of a concern when we're dealing with a shotgun. A single well placed shot is usually sufficient to handle an individual threat. The only documented occasions I know of where somebody has needed more than one shot was the result of either not getting a solid hit the first time, or using ineffective ammunition. Scotty Reitz's book contains an account of a dude going for an AK who (because somebody got a bad mount on a gun with a stock that's too long most likely) took a full pattern of buckshot into one arm but kept going for the AK in the corner, requiring a second round in the chest that stopped the fight. A client of mine was overseas when the house he was in was attacked by armored bad guys. With the 6 rounds of his 870 he cracked the body armor of two threats. One his teammate finished with a head shot from an M4. The rest he handled with failure drills after cracking the armor. Except the one guy who he got a little high on and missed the armor entirely, punching a chunk of his spine out the back. In class I joke that you aren't going to have to kill a helicopter full of ninjas in home defense. That last part is becoming less true. The gang breaking into your house, to steal your guns, has body armor, radios and might arrive by helicopter, bearcat or mrap. The way the FBI is purging agents that don’t lean left is….concerning. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 3:39:27 PM EST
[#42]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 3:43:39 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where do you get those? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm going to argue in this thread again that loading splintering slugs is the best shotgun load from 0-100yards. Buckshot is limited to 25yards and 50 yards for FCW. But a splintering slug? It flies like a slug but wounds like a slug and buckshot. It double your range with practical hits. No need mid fight to rechamber a slug. You don't think about your load, you just load, aim, shoot! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9494_jpeg-3028450.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9451_jpeg-3028452.JPG Load development at 25yd. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_9135_jpeg-3028454.JPG https://static.wixstatic.com/media/982938_c14ef31e91de424bba6c31fb9e35813f~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_599,h_233,al_c,q_85,enc_auto/Web_EU_H32_v2_1_s.png https://static.wixstatic.com/media/982938_060dc299c1db476ba99edfb569100d54~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_600,h_233,al_c,lg_1,q_85,enc_auto/Web_EU_2018_D28_v2_1_s.png Where do you get those? . Midwayusa has them in stock though.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 3:49:54 PM EST
[#44]
Quoted: I carried one for years. A Mossberg 590. Other than shooting birds and locks there is really nothing they do better than an AR. They are easy to short stroke under stress. Easy to miss with, contrary to popular belief. They have a low capacity and are slow as shit to reload. Sure they deal some damage but overall they suck. Not to mention the black and blue shoulders from firing 100 plus slugs a day in training. But…because I am an old(not too old) and sentimental bastard I think I am going to get a 590. Anyway, it will be cool to have one that doesn’t rattle like a steam engine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/191077/IMG_8763_jpeg-3027889.JPG ETA: don’t get too mad, I know I am pushing buttons. But mostly I really do mean it. That doesn’t mean they aren’t awesome. If I was in ww1 I'd take a 1897 over any of the weapons available save for the mp18 But in a mountainous wasteland like Afghanistan? Yeah not very ideal. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:07:49 PM EST
[#45]
Only advantage of shotguns for self defense is they can be a cheap option for many people unable to afford more.
A decent shotgun like a Maverick can be bought for $200. It's easier to shoot and more effective than a handgun. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:11:24 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I was in ww1 I'd take a 1897 over any of the weapons available save for the mp18 But in a mountainous wasteland like Afghanistan? Yeah not very ideal. Keep in mind that most of WWI was fought in trenches filled with mud and water. They could have issued brass cased #00, but didn't. This kept the trench guns from being quite as effective as they could have been. No fancy wads or filler either, they would have fired a large pattern. The 1897 design is not well suited for muddy conditions either. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:14:28 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotguns are tools just like all other weapons The best way to think of them is a subgun that fires an 8, 9, or 15-shot burst I agree with this. Plus, shotguns typically have a huge advantage in pointability over most SMGs and carbines, which gives them an according advantage in a snap shot situation, where you have to engage a target in a hurry that you weren't already aiming at. A good shotgunner with a properly set up shotgun can engage an emerging target in the blink of an eye, and be well on the way to engaging the next one while an SMG or carbine guy is still going for the first one. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:17:34 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In WWI, there were international committees that were proposing a ban on shotguns in warfare because they were so devastating in the trenches. Seeing all these tiny drones stalking soldiers in Ukraine, I think a shotgun would be the most effective way to take one down before it hit you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think I'd rather be in a trench up against a rifle than my Vepr 12. That thing is devastating. Chances that I'll be in that situation? Basically none so I'll stick to blasting clays with it. In WWI, there were international committees that were proposing a ban on shotguns in warfare because they were so devastating in the trenches. Seeing all these tiny drones stalking soldiers in Ukraine, I think a shotgun would be the most effective way to take one down before it hit you. How high do you think those drones are that the guys on the ground usually aren't hearing them? How loud do you think a drone big enough to carry 4-6 grenades, or multiple 40mm would be? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:27:07 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind that most of WWI was fought in trenches filled with mud and water. They could have issued brass cased #00, but didn't. This kept the trench guns from being quite as effective as they could have been. No fancy wads or filler either, they would have fired a large pattern. The 1897 design is not well suited for muddy conditions either. Oh I am aware of all those issues. They would get brass. But the war was pretty much over by the time they did. I am not even sure they got to the front fast enough to even see any combat by the time the war ended. Amusingly in classic American style, they would forget about those issues by the time World War 2 was around because in the 1920s and 1930s They would go back to paper cartridges again to save money. The Marines would finally get paras cartridges, again, But by the time I did, it was, again, Meaningless to the war effort by that point.. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:32:22 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh guns are like golf clubs they’re all optimized for certain areas. The level they are suboptimal for in other areas varies. Which is why we should all agree 50bmg with a 20” bbl pretty much is the most versatile. I was gonna suggest 50bmg sbr cuz maneuverability and stuff. |
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