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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:28:10 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love my ONG folder. It was a miracle as I saw a post on a Reddit about them but had to go to work. Several hours later I remembered and picked up two, then came here and saw the ensuing frenzy. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:29:25 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For any REALISTIC scenario at 100 yards or less, my 12g Browning Auto 5 will be my go to gun. 10 round magazine loaded with buck and ball. I can feed new rounds into the magazine about as fast as I can pull the trigger. Doubt. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:30:10 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doubt. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For any REALISTIC scenario at 100 yards or less, my 12g Browning Auto 5 will be my go to gun. 10 round magazine loaded with buck and ball. I can feed new rounds into the magazine about as fast as I can pull the trigger. Doubt. Maybe he's really, really, slow. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:31:55 AM EST
[#4]
Absolutely nothing is better, for home defense, than a Saiga-12 with a 20 round drum. Period, the end.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:31:57 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seriously? Crap. M-4 has be chambered to ghost load it. Seriously. Here's the good news: you don't need to ghost load your M4. Capacity is not much of a concern when we're dealing with a shotgun. A single well placed shot is usually sufficient to handle an individual threat. The only documented occasions I know of where somebody has needed more than one shot was the result of either not getting a solid hit the first time, or using ineffective ammunition. Scotty Reitz's book contains an account of a dude going for an AK who (because somebody got a bad mount on a gun with a stock that's too long most likely) took a full pattern of buckshot into one arm but kept going for the AK in the corner, requiring a second round in the chest that stopped the fight. A client of mine was overseas when the house he was in was attacked by armored bad guys. With the 6 rounds of his 870 he cracked the body armor of two threats. One his teammate finished with a head shot from an M4. The rest he handled with failure drills after cracking the armor. Except the one guy who he got a little high on and missed the armor entirely, punching a chunk of his spine out the back. In class I joke that you aren't going to have to kill a helicopter full of ninjas in home defense. Well, this is about as close to actually having to face that helicopter full of ninjas as it gets and he handled it with the capacity of a Remington 870 that has a mag tube extension on it. Of course, had he needed to reload he'd put in the time and effort to learn how to effectively combat load the shotgun quickly from a Vang Comp side saddle just like I showed him. So he had no concerns about sustaining the fight if the other assholes had been suicidal enough to keep trying to make it up that stairwell. Edit - So don't worry about that shell in the chamber. Leave one on the lifter and if you get kilt in the streetz I'll give you a full refund. 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:33:01 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I took a Louis Awerbuck class in 04 before my time in Fallujah. He spoke very highly of buckshot inside 25 yards. Inside 25yards buckshot is final. That's with legacy buckshot. With flight control I'd stretch that to 50. it's the whole multiple projectile concept. You are much more likely to connect with a shotgun. Especially given multiple, moving tangos at various distances all engaging you at the same time. Flitecontrol does extend it to 40-50 easily, I've even tried it at 100m to have pellet or two connect. https://www.amazon.com/Defensive-Shotgun-Louis-Awerbuck/dp/0879474122 |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:35:26 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I carried one for years. A Mossberg 590. Other than shooting birds and locks there is really nothing they do better than an AR. They are easy to short stroke under stress. Easy to miss with, contrary to popular belief. They have a low capacity and are slow as shit to reload. Sure they deal some damage but overall they suck. Not to mention the black and blue shoulders from firing 100 plus slugs a day in training. But…because I am an old(not too old) and sentimental bastard I think I am going to get a 590. Anyway, it will be cool to have one that doesn’t rattle like a steam engine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/191077/IMG_8763_jpeg-3027889.JPG ETA: don’t get too mad, I know I am pushing buttons. But mostly I really do mean it. That doesn’t mean they aren’t awesome. lol short-stroke? if I could run a semi, I wouldn't have a 12 gauge, period. The recoil is mild and there is no "short stroking". with extended mag tube, the capacity is 9+1+1 so that's 11 x 9 pellets in the air launched in 2.3 nanoseconds. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:36:08 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess, maybe…of course I did, as I said, carry one and train with one extensively for years. I’m not trying to be a jerk. This is just a raw data point. In my line of work I’ve met quite a few gentlemen who have 20 years on the job and are more inept than first day rookies. So maybe it’s just you? Again, no jerk. I fully admit there are plenty of things I suck at despite my sincerest attempts to better myself at them. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:37:01 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a significant performance gap between a 12gauge and a 556. This idea that a 556 is equal to a 12 gauge is laughable. Are you that ignorant to think ab77 gr bullet at 2800fps will perform the same as 1 ounce at 1400fps? Seriously I've used both vs men and deer and there is no comparison. hardened Brenneke slugs will go through a car engine, that stuff can do damage even against a class IIIa vest. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:37:34 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely nothing is better, for home defense, than a Saiga-12 with a 20 round drum. Period, the end. I honestly don't trust mag fed shotguns with rounds that have been loaded a long time. I've had them deform in tube fed guns before, maybe a drum will help mitigate this but I would want to check that before staking my life on it. To me that's one big advantage of the rifle, if it has sat for two years it should be just as ready to rock and roll when you pick it up, a shotgun has more potential for ammo related issues in this scenario. I have multiple 870's setup in the same manner so an individual gun may not be get shot very often. If I think about it, I'll cycle the ammo through the chamber to check this periodically. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:37:50 AM EST
[#11]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:39:00 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even you people who are surplus to God's perfect outline for the human form (namely me) do better when the LOP is shorter. Especially as I will try to get you shooting with a squared up stance similar to the way we'd want you to use a carbine. Having your hips square is a good idea for a lot of reasons and the shorter stock lets you run the gun more on your chest than your shoulder joint...which has all kinds of benefits. That is fair. But even if we remain at a slight disadvantage, at least we look really really ridiculously good looking while doing it... 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:40:24 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.56 has higher energy density per reload by far. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. Your individual data point doesn’t tell the whole story. You’re just trying to use it to twist reality. The reality is a slug to…..where it hits, is going to cause significantly more damage than your hopped up .22 |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:41:35 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I honestly don't trust mag fed shotguns with rounds that have been loaded a long time. I've had them deform in tube fed guns before, maybe a drum will help mitigate this but I would want to check that before staking my life on it. To me that's one big advantage of the rifle, if it has sat for two years it should be just as ready to rock and roll when you pick it up, a shotgun has more potential for ammo related issues in this scenario. I'm sure somebody will figure out box fed magazines for shotguns eventually, but I don't think anyone is quite there yet. Genesis seems to be promising, though. I think they may be cracking the code on the box-fed semi-auto right now. But expensive and in short supply. And as previously stated, capacity doesn't worry me with a shotgun. I regularly demonstrate two rounds on target in less than 2 seconds with only one shell loaded in the shotgun. Shoot, combat load, shoot again in less than 2 seconds. Running out of shells isn't something I'm likely to have to worry about in home defense. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:42:43 AM EST
[#15]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:43:54 AM EST
[#16]
I once believed as you do, then I saw the heavy use of drones in Ukraine.
My next gun will probably be a Beretta 1301 |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:46:53 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryI've had a couple of the tiger stripe ones show up in class. They are really frickin' cool. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:47:04 AM EST
[#18]
aside from tactical:
From the legal viewpoint, you can drive with a 12 gauge through all 50 states, or live in all 50 with it. Even Canada IIRC. And if you end up in the courtroom, it will look a lot more palatable for you versus a fighting weapon. Massad talks a lot about that, the courtroom context. Another bonus is that ammo will always be available, you can always find something. #4 or BB in a 3" shell with flitecontrol is no joke and a lot better than nothing. You are always guaranteed to find ammo for it, always. Not that you always have to use it, just having it is usually enough. There there the hunting possibilities. Easier to harvest small game with #7 versus 22LR. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:52:35 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.amazon.com/Norco-80-Spectacular-Robbery-American/dp/1640092129 I post about this book in shotgun threads all the time. This was the end of revolvers and shotguns as fighting guns. Some random shitheads with carbines held off a bunch of hard ass cops armed with revolvers and shotguns. The shitheads had home made body armor, I think, and they got a huge break when they stole a random pick up to escape, it turned out to be a welder's truck and had metal plates in the back so they had a crude armored car. The police went after the shitheads like it was a movie. They'd charge up to the truck, taking rifle fire, and shoot from the police car with 38s and pump shot guns. It sucks that the police were treated like the high school football team who lost the big game, they fought with tenacity. I have combat shotguns and revolvers. I wonder about the future of quality fighting revolvers. Smith and Wesson is eventually going to move revolver production and the j Frame must be under huge pressure from the p365. I'm glad I got my S&W revolvers there is a YT video about the above. IIRC, what actually stopped the fight was one of the cops shooting a buckshot into the truck, with one of the pellets connecting with driver's head. and if they went for the tires, the multiple projectile concept means you are that much more likely to hit it. A 12 gauge semiauto is exactly the right tool for the majority of leo, IMO. The only big problem is watching the background but the exact same issue exists with anything else, too. A high velocity high BC projectile will fly for the proverbial mile versus round pellets which don't have the range. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:55:58 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly options are always good, I have a 14" Shockwave by the front door if I can't get back to the bedroom safe. If I can get there it'll be a rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Meh  The fighting shotgun isn’t a bad choice for home defense. It’s just that there is almost always a better choice.Honestly options are always good, I have a 14" Shockwave by the front door if I can't get back to the bedroom safe. If I can get there it'll be a rifle. Agreed. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:00:59 AM EST
[#21]
I have 3 shotguns…..
870 - jam-o-magic Silver Pigeon for trap Mossberg Mariner 590 8 shot for SD that never gets used. For some reason, I feel like I “need” a 1301 to make my life complete. Do I really need the one with chokes or is LE OC good to go? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:02:01 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have 3 shotguns….. 870 - jam-o-magic Silver Pigeon for trap Mossberg Mariner 590 8 shot for SD that never gets used. For some reason, I feel like I “need” a 1301 to make my life complete. Do I really need the one with chokes or is LE OC good to go? Need, no. But I would prefer to have the choke system if I was spending 1301 money these days. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:07:02 AM EST
[#23]
In a high stress situation at modest or short range, if I am only likely to get one pull of the trigger before expected return fire, I would prefer to have a shotgun.
I have no problem if others prefer pistols or rifles. I own both, and am competent with pistols and rifles. But I think the shotgun gives me a small edge. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:07:45 AM EST
[#24]
AR is better. But not every firearm has to be an AR. It’s ok to have other firearms for other reasons.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:10:31 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's the shell cutoff and the semi-auto function. Semi-autos with a shell cutoff confuse the living shit out of people under stress until they have a solid basis of training and some regular sustainment work to back that up. They'll load the mag tube and then try to work the bolt and nothing loads. Some of them get stuck there not able to remember why it isn't loading. Others run the bolt and press the trigger, get a click, then stare at the gun trying to figure out what's happening. Then there are those who will immediately run the bolt which will load the shell that's been released to the lifter by the trigger pull and they can actually fire a shot. There's just more going on with a semi-auto and it requires knowing how your gun works to keep it running should there be a problem or when it comes time to get it into action. And if by "flipping off the safety" you mean you're storing a semi-auto with a loaded chamber, please don't do that. None of the guns on the market today are drop/impact safe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've short stroked a pump shotgun before (in a class). I've never had a problem grabbing flipping the safety off on a semi? It's the shell cutoff and the semi-auto function. Semi-autos with a shell cutoff confuse the living shit out of people under stress until they have a solid basis of training and some regular sustainment work to back that up. They'll load the mag tube and then try to work the bolt and nothing loads. Some of them get stuck there not able to remember why it isn't loading. Others run the bolt and press the trigger, get a click, then stare at the gun trying to figure out what's happening. Then there are those who will immediately run the bolt which will load the shell that's been released to the lifter by the trigger pull and they can actually fire a shot. There's just more going on with a semi-auto and it requires knowing how your gun works to keep it running should there be a problem or when it comes time to get it into action. And if by "flipping off the safety" you mean you're storing a semi-auto with a loaded chamber, please don't do that. None of the guns on the market today are drop/impact safe. I generally keep shotguns "cruiser ready", however, I have absolutely stored Auto-5 pattern guns loaded at the backdoor. One was cosmetically a beater so I absolutely drop tested it with primed cases (I was cutting back a barrel anyway, so didn't mind the 40" drops onto concrete) and accidentally tipping one over or dropping it wasn't going to be an issue. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:14:07 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seriously? Crap. M-4 has be chambered to ghost load it. I don't understand this statement. I can ghost load my M1super90 and leave the chamber empty. Why would the M-4 be any different? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:14:57 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A couple of myths that should be dealt with: Recoil - Shotguns only kick you if you let them. You don't have to let them. Short stroking pump guns - This is almost always the result primarily of an ill-fitting shotgun. When people show up to class with the Mossberg 590 they bought at the gunstore because the guy at the counter told them it was good for hip firing (no, I'm not making that up, had a client who told me that Sunday) it comes with a stock that's entirely too long and that stretches them out on the gun, meaning they can't develop any power on the forend and that results in most of the short stroking. Putting them on a gun that has a stock on it that's not stupid usually results in that problem evaporating immediately. Stick somebody on a gun with a typical 14" LOP or even worse one of those even longer pistol-gripped pieces of shit and you get short stroking. ALL THIS! If you think your shotgun “kicks like a mule” you’re doing something wrong. Proper fit, particularly LOP is critical to handling a shotgun. Proper hold and stance a close second. Pistol grips on shotguns act like levers, accentuating perceived recoil. Particularly if the LOP is too long to begin with. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:17:46 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryKnew this would be in here somewhere. My favorite explanation. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:29:09 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is fair. But even if we remain at a slight disadvantage, at least we look really really ridiculously good looking while doing it... 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:36:01 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AR is better. But not every firearm has to be an AR. It’s ok to have other firearms for other reasons. They can also be Glocks. Nothing else though. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:36:40 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the term “combat shotgun” is stupid. I also think a semi auto such as a 1301 properly setup would absolutely wreck anyone in a home defense situation. I don’t care if it is a group of attackers. When they see their buddy hit with a couple blasts of buckshot it will probably suck the desire to continue right out of them. I don’t worry about people wearing armor. In this day you should expect anyone you may have to shoot to be wearing armor. Hit them with more rounds. Pelvic or neck/head for second round if the center mass was ineffective. That all being said, if we are talking outside of the home I would pick a rifle 99% of the time, as would the majority here probably. I have trained my family to put the first round in the center of the chest. If they don't drop instantly, put the second round between the dick and belt buckle. That is with ANY gun. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:39:02 AM EST
[#32]
They have a place. If I am wearing my underwear I choose the AK, if I am fully clothed the AR but if I am butt-ass nekid then it will be the shotgun when I hear a bump in the night.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:39:23 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Because the only other option available to them was a bolt action rifle the length of a fucking telephone pole that held 5 rounds. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:43:47 AM EST
[#34]
The argument that they "suck" because they are not the best is the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy.
But GD gonna GD...... |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:44:42 AM EST
[#35]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:44:44 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think I'd rather be in a trench up against a rifle than my Vepr 12. That thing is devastating. Chances that I'll be in that situation? Basically none so I'll stick to blasting clays with it. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:46:00 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doubt. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For any REALISTIC scenario at 100 yards or less, my 12g Browning Auto 5 will be my go to gun. 10 round magazine loaded with buck and ball. I can feed new rounds into the magazine about as fast as I can pull the trigger. Doubt. Combat loading a semi-auto shotgun is damn fast, IF you practice. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:46:42 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not trying to be a jerk. This is just a raw data point. In my line of work I’ve met quite a few gentlemen who have 20 years on the job and are more inept than first day rookies. So maybe it’s just you? Again, no jerk. I fully admit there are plenty of things I suck at despite my sincerest attempts to better myself at them. Interesting enough I never once said I was bad with a shotgun. In fact I was certainly near the top of my company during quals. But no matter how good or bad I am with a shotgun it doesn't change their limitations. You get your 8 or 9 or 10 rounds on a really long firearm. Indeed there may be some amazing bad ass out there that can reload a shotgun faster than a magazine, but I would have to see it to believe it. I have already said that against one assailant in a hallway you are going to own them. But I would encourage anyone who chooses a shotgun to be honest about how much they have really put themselves through the paces with it. Run till your heart is about to explode and you cant't get your breath and then engage multiple targets, at various ranges, preferably with some of them moving. Let's be really honest. Most of us buy that gun and set it in the corner after blasting some clay pigeons on the ground at the range. It just is what it is and most of us, myself included, are lazy. And the further truth is that in all likelihood it will never matter. I really did not intend to stir a hornets nest with my post about me literally buying a shotgun, but this is GD I guess
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:48:00 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Considering that the alternative was a bolt-action rifle that was heavier, longer and still only held five rounds of ammunition, I’m sure it was popular for clearing trenches. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:51:21 AM EST
[#40]
Also….Why the fuck is the 1301 so damn expensive?
ETA: Looks like I might get a deal at $1400 or so OTD. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:56:14 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any shotgun with a blade attached to it is cool. It makes people behave. He's right you know!!! |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:02:58 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal discontinued 8 pellet which was more common on the civilian side due to tighter groups. Only 9 pellet now which kinda sucks. 8 pellet was 4x4 with buffering material, the 9 pellet isn't as tight. I prefer Hornady’s 12ga “Critical Defense” load. 8-pellets of 00Buck leaving the muzzle at 1600fps. It uses the same patented wad as Federal Flight Control. Great patterns and devastating performance on soft tissue. Perceived recoil is no greater than other Buckshot loads despite the far greater energy per pellet. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:08:33 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also….Why the fuck is the 1301 so damn expensive? Made in Italy. Production costs for everything in Europe have gone through the roof since Russian energy has been made dramatically more expensive. Then factor in all the COVID good idea fairy bullshit. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:12:01 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Combat loading a semi-auto shotgun is damn fast, IF you practice. Sure but you said you can reload about as fast as you can pull the trigger. Nobody’s shotgun reloads are anywhere near as fast as their splits unless you’re taking a nap between trigger pulls. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:14:20 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buckshot does the job within its usefully range. A shotgun still has its uses.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwTDxr9St-0"Hey man, ya good?" lol |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:19:20 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.amazon.com/Norco-80-Spectacular-Robbery-American/dp/1640092129 I post about this book in shotgun threads all the time. This was the end of revolvers and shotguns as fighting guns. Some random shitheads with carbines held off a bunch of hard ass cops armed with revolvers and shotguns. The shitheads had home made body armor, I think, and they got a huge break when they stole a random pick up to escape, it turned out to be a welder's truck and had metal plates in the back so they had a crude armored car. The police went after the shitheads like it was a movie. They'd charge up to the truck, taking rifle fire, and shoot from the police car with 38s and pump shot guns. It sucks that the police were treated like the high school football team who lost the big game, they fought with tenacity. I have combat shotguns and revolvers. I wonder about the future of quality fighting revolvers. Smith and Wesson is eventually going to move revolver production and the j Frame must be under huge pressure from the p365. I'm glad I got my S&W revolvers If S&W stops revolver production it sure as hell won't be the P365 that does it . I work in a local gun shop part time and the die-hard revolver guys have zero interest in anything polymer. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:19:58 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where did you have the sights installed on that shockwave? Quote HistoryQuoted: Where did you have the sights installed on that shockwave? @tabman No shockwave Factory PD trade 590 14” SBS |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:21:32 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely nothing is better, for home defense, than a Saiga-12 with a 20 round drum. Period, the end. Not trying to be a dick, but have you ever been to a 3 gun match? Saigas fail constantly. I understand that there are a few gunsmiths that can get them to run OK, but it is a $3k+ job. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:21:55 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, but when you shoot someone they jump up in the air and fly through walls..  What's your favorite boomstick ?? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 10:23:12 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think I'd rather be in a trench up against a rifle than my Vepr 12. That thing is devastating. Chances that I'll be in that situation? Basically none so I'll stick to blasting clays with it. In WWI, there were international committees that were proposing a ban on shotguns in warfare because they were so devastating in the trenches. Seeing all these tiny drones stalking soldiers in Ukraine, I think a shotgun would be the most effective way to take one down before it hit you. |
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