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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:39:39 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were popular during a time of trench warfare. Different Era. Trench warfare seems to be alive and well in Ukraine. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 4:57:07 AM EST
[#2]
12 gauge is hard to beat when it comes to consistently putting dicks in the dirt with one hit.
Tube fed shotguns are slow to load, it’s just the nature of the beast. Even so, a Benelli M4 can carry 8 or 9 shells at once, depending on the shell length, and that’s a pretty respectable load for an 18” 12 gauge. For some strange reason, there aren’t a whole lot of really good mag-fed shotguns. You’d think those would be super popular. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 5:06:33 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to say that. Someone recorded me short stroking a shotgun shooting steel on a timer. I didn't believe it until I saw it. [shrug] Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Page 4 too late to chime in, but I'm always surprised on Arfcom to read about short stroke problems. Years of hunting desert quail at nearly a dead run to keep up with the covey, and have never had a problem with a Remington 870. I've had more problems with ARs tbh. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 5:37:18 AM EST
[#4]
If somebody created a contest where you had to drink a Mountain Dew, eat Pop Rocks, do some back flips, and shoot a shotgun, every mother fucker on this board would be talking about how cool it is to have one.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 5:52:44 AM EST
[#5]
Shotguns are tools just like all other weapons
The best way to think of them is a subgun that fires an 8, 9, or 15-shot burst |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 5:55:43 AM EST
[#6]
My wife is used to my short-strokes, so I got her a shotgun for HD.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:13:19 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For any REALISTIC scenario at 100 yards or less, my 12g Browning Auto 5 will be my go to gun. 10 round magazine loaded with buck and ball. I can feed new rounds into the magazine about as fast as I can pull the trigger. How are you aiming? 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:20:26 AM EST
[#8]
Proven recipe.
Rock salt Rock salt Bean bag #8 Birdshot 1 Blank to fuck with them 00 Buck 3" Deer Slug Dragon's Breath for the Grand Finale Kidding, but I really want a 1301 or A300 after watching Garand Thumb video. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:31:38 AM EST
[#9]
The amount of nonsense that gets posted on this board regarding guns that aren't ARs is astronomical.
At this rate I'm going to have to buy a Mini-14. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:33:23 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Proven recipe. Rock salt Rock salt Bean bag #8 Birdshot 1 Blank to fuck with them 00 Buck 3" Deer Slug Dragon's Breath for the Grand Finale Kidding, but I really want a 1301 or A300 after watching Garand Thumb video. He has a pretty neat video that covers the terminal ballistic effect of different types of shot at various ranges.  How Far are Shotguns Deadly? BirdShot, Slugs, and 00 Buckshot |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:36:48 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Coach guns are a hoot. I use one a couple off times a yr at the trap club and piss the rich guys off when I shoot as well as they do with their real expensive trap guns. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:42:17 AM EST
[#12]
I just cleared my house with an SBS after I was awoke by a loud noise in the middle of the night. Rounding corners and entering doorways sucked, so I'm going back to an SBR. YMMV
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:18:23 AM EST
[#13]
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:23:38 AM EST
[#14]
When you've got a host of 4 legged creatures to deal with + two legged a shotty is a handy tool for
first engagement...a majority of the time...imo |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:30:24 AM EST
[#15]
I want a tactical Shotgun about as much as I want a tactical lever gun
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:31:07 AM EST
[#16]
I love my ONG folder.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:34:16 AM EST
[#17]
14” Benelli M4 with Federal LE133 OO buck
 IMPD Critical Incident Video - OIS 5460 E 21st Street |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:37:50 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal discontinued 8 pellet which was more common on the civilian side due to tighter groups. Only 9 pellet now which kinda sucks. 8 pellet was 4x4 with buffering material, the 9 pellet isn't as tight. Thankfully the discontinuation of 8 pellet was a rumor. It's still being made and shipments of it just hit several retailers including Lucky Gunner. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:38:21 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That reminds me. I need to clean my 930 from the back to back classes I took with it. It wasn’t running so good towards the end of the 2nd class. I want a 590 as well, op. And an A300. And a 1301. You're fortunate, then. Most 930's I've seen wouldn't run through one class. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:41:02 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see a reason to get a pump action today as an established adult. It makes more sense to have a pump if you aren't doing the level of training and sustainment necessary to effectively run the semi-auto under stress. A lot of clients have purchased 1301s. Those who haven't touched one in a while come to class and struggle through the first couple of drills trying to get the gun into action. Usually it's the shell cutoff that causes them the issues. They get over it relatively quickly, but unfortunately we don't get second and third chances in a fight. So for that reason I tell people who aren't going to spend the time to really learn their gun to buy a pump. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:43:36 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trench warfare seems to be alive and well in Ukraine. And they're not using shotguns to clear them. They have drones. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:43:44 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Beretta A300 Ultima Patrol will be my next firearm purchase. THIS!! |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:44:46 AM EST
[#23]
My M-4 just has a safety. I don’t see how it’s tougher to use under stress.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:45:06 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK so this is one of those threads. It's only good if it holds 500 rounds of 50 cal subsonic HP GAMC nuke infused exploding and tumbling into 9mm 115 grain round ball FMJ. Right. OK. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:46:37 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not? They're using Nagants. Clarification needed: A Nagant is a pistol. A Mosin Nagant is rifle. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:47:09 AM EST
[#26]
A couple of myths that should be dealt with:
Recoil - Shotguns only kick you if you let them. You don't have to let them. Short stroking pump guns - This is almost always the result primarily of an ill-fitting shotgun. When people show up to class with the Mossberg 590 they bought at the gunstore because the guy at the counter told them it was good for hip firing (no, I'm not making that up, had a client who told me that Sunday) it comes with a stock that's entirely too long and that stretches them out on the gun, meaning they can't develop any power on the forend and that results in most of the short stroking. Putting them on a gun that has a stock on it that's not stupid usually results in that problem evaporating immediately. Stick somebody on a gun with a typical 14" LOP or even worse one of those even longer pistol-gripped pieces of shit and you get short stroking. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:52:59 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It makes more sense to have a pump if you aren't doing the level of training and sustainment necessary to effectively run the semi-auto under stress. A lot of clients have purchased 1301s. Those who haven't touched one in a while come to class and struggle through the first couple of drills trying to get the gun into action. Usually it's the shell cutoff that causes them the issues. They get over it relatively quickly, but unfortunately we don't get second and third chances in a fight. So for that reason I tell people who aren't going to spend the time to really learn their gun to buy a pump. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't see a reason to get a pump action today as an established adult. It makes more sense to have a pump if you aren't doing the level of training and sustainment necessary to effectively run the semi-auto under stress. A lot of clients have purchased 1301s. Those who haven't touched one in a while come to class and struggle through the first couple of drills trying to get the gun into action. Usually it's the shell cutoff that causes them the issues. They get over it relatively quickly, but unfortunately we don't get second and third chances in a fight. So for that reason I tell people who aren't going to spend the time to really learn their gun to buy a pump. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:53:07 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A couple of myths that should be dealt with: Recoil - Shotguns only kick you if you let them. You don't have to let them. Short stroking pump guns - This is almost always the result primarily of an ill-fitting shotgun. When people show up to class with the Mossberg 590 they bought at the gunstore because the guy at the counter told them it was good for hip firing (no, I'm not making that up, had a client who told me that Sunday) it comes with a stock that's entirely too long and that stretches them out on the gun, meaning they can't develop any power on the forend and that results in most of the short stroking. Putting them on a gun that has a stock on it that's not stupid usually results in that problem evaporating immediately. Stick somebody on a gun with a typical 14" LOP or even worse one of those even longer pistol-gripped pieces of shit and you get short stroking. Interesting! I had a BPS 10 gauge loaded with 3-1/2” and would short stroke it when the birds were coming in hot. I just assumed it was the excitement and the extra length of the shell. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:54:39 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My old neighbor, a Marine was in Iraq and dropped an insurgent who came out of nowhere and ran up behind a unit inside a house. The insurgent didn’t know there was 1 more guy in the team behind him 1 stop shot. My ADD forced me to read this as: My old marine neighbor was in his house and dropped an insurance agent that came out of nowhere
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:56:06 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Clarification needed: A Nagant is a pistol. A Mosin Nagant is rifle. Um, I'd bet both? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:56:29 AM EST
[#31]
You might be right but I want a 1301 in a bad kind of way.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:57:54 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting! I had a BPS 10 gauge loaded with 3-1/2” and would short stroke it when the birds were coming in hot. I just assumed it was the excitement and the extra length of the shell. The more distance you have to move the pump, the shorter you want the stock. Pretty much all shotguns come with stocks that are too long for anyone who is under 6'2" tall. Even for bird hunting they're excessive. In defensive shooting where we'd like to have a more squared up stance both to allow us to move most effectively and to prevent the shotgun from running us instead of the other way around, a significantly shorter stock is useful. For shooting airborne targets I prefer a 12.5-13" LOP. For defensive shooting 12" is about my sweet spot. (I'm 5'11", but have wide shoulders) People need to be taught to run the pump as hard as they can, but most of the time the reason they experience problems running the gun is that it's so long and far away from their core power that they struggle to make it work the way they need to. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:58:57 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might be right but I want a 1301 in a bad kind of way. They are magnificent shotguns. I've sold a boatload of them just by letting people shoot mine. And Beretta hasn't even given me a free hat or anything. Fucking Italians. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:02:36 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've short stroked a pump shotgun before (in a class). I've never had a problem grabbing flipping the safety off on a semi? It's the shell cutoff and the semi-auto function. Semi-autos with a shell cutoff confuse the living shit out of people under stress until they have a solid basis of training and some regular sustainment work to back that up. They'll load the mag tube and then try to work the bolt and nothing loads. Some of them get stuck there not able to remember why it isn't loading. Others run the bolt and press the trigger, get a click, then stare at the gun trying to figure out what's happening. Then there are those who will immediately run the bolt which will load the shell that's been released to the lifter by the trigger pull and they can actually fire a shot. There's just more going on with a semi-auto and it requires knowing how your gun works to keep it running should there be a problem or when it comes time to get it into action. And if by "flipping off the safety" you mean you're storing a semi-auto with a loaded chamber, please don't do that. None of the guns on the market today are drop/impact safe. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:08:07 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It makes more sense to have a pump if you aren't doing the level of training and sustainment necessary to effectively run the semi-auto under stress. A lot of clients have purchased 1301s. Those who haven't touched one in a while come to class and struggle through the first couple of drills trying to get the gun into action. Usually it's the shell cutoff that causes them the issues. They get over it relatively quickly, but unfortunately we don't get second and third chances in a fight. So for that reason I tell people who aren't going to spend the time to really learn their gun to buy a pump. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't see a reason to get a pump action today as an established adult. It makes more sense to have a pump if you aren't doing the level of training and sustainment necessary to effectively run the semi-auto under stress. A lot of clients have purchased 1301s. Those who haven't touched one in a while come to class and struggle through the first couple of drills trying to get the gun into action. Usually it's the shell cutoff that causes them the issues. They get over it relatively quickly, but unfortunately we don't get second and third chances in a fight. So for that reason I tell people who aren't going to spend the time to really learn their gun to buy a pump. You see more mistakes with semi autos than short stroking a pump? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:09:24 AM EST
[#36]
Meh
 The fighting shotgun isn’t a bad choice for home defense. It’s just that there is almost always a better choice.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:09:47 AM EST
[#37]
Even though the Beretta recoil impulse is much more pleasant I still can't run one as fast as I can an inertia gun. I also find them easier to mod for faster loading than the Beretta, you have to make a much deeper cut into the receiver it seems due to the position of the mag tube. The 1301 Comp Pro isn't opened up nearly enough.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:13:38 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh The fighting shotgun isn’t a bad choice for home defense. It’s just that there is almost always a better choice.Honestly options are always good, I have a 14" Shockwave by the front door if I can't get back to the bedroom safe. If I can get there it'll be a rifle. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:13:45 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.56 has higher energy density per reload by far. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. Density per reload? Who says you need a full reload. A warm 12 gauge slug is twice the energy of an AR 15. This is like saying the bantamweights are better because they punch faster. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:13:59 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh The fighting shotgun isn’t a bad choice for home defense. It’s just that there is almost always a better choice.Your mind is the weapon, anything is just a tool. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:14:21 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You see more mistakes with semi autos than short stroking a pump? Yup. Short stroking pumps is relatively rare and almost always happens with people who have an ill-fitting shotgun. Semi-auto flubs based on not knowing what button to push when is much more common. They get out of it after the first few drills...but the first few drills are more representative of touching the gun the first time after a prolonged period of not having done so. And keep in mind that this is among people who have taken it upon themselves to actually do incredibly rare things: 1. Shoot a defensive shotgun 2. Actually seek out training with it So they're outliers before they ever touch the thing and they still struggle until they've spent enough time really learning how the gun works. The first dozen live fire reps I do during the day walks people through setting up the gun in a ready condition. In my home defense shotgun class, literally every rep is done from a "cruiser ready" condition to give them reps setting the gun up and getting it into action. Time doing this has convinced me that's the best shot I have of making them capable of using the gun. So far I have not found a single instance of someone who was able to get a shotgun into action losing the fight in home defense...so I'm trying as best I can to set them up for success. Getting a semi-auto into action reliably seems to be more readily perishable than a pump gun for most people. To me it's irrelevant...but I'm an outlier among outliers. I spend a highly abnormal amount of time with a shotgun in my hand. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:16:08 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can confirm. Every hog I’ve ever shot with 12 gauge slugs was DRT without taking another step. Not always the case when using 556 for me. Tough to beat real world data on the ground. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:16:46 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love my shotguns, but don't really disagree. Same here love my 870 Home Defense I think it’s called. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:17:57 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A couple of myths that should be dealt with: Recoil - Shotguns only kick you if you let them. You don't have to let them. Short stroking pump guns - This is almost always the result primarily of an ill-fitting shotgun. When people show up to class with the Mossberg 590 they bought at the gunstore because the guy at the counter told them it was good for hip firing (no, I'm not making that up, had a client who told me that Sunday) it comes with a stock that's entirely too long and that stretches them out on the gun, meaning they can't develop any power on the forend and that results in most of the short stroking. Putting them on a gun that has a stock on it that's not stupid usually results in that problem evaporating immediately. Stick somebody on a gun with a typical 14" LOP or even worse one of those even longer pistol-gripped pieces of shit and you get short stroking. To be fair to Mossberg, the appropriate length of pull/stock length is related to the height of the shooter, and Sweden has one of the highest average heights in the world, along with their immediate neighbors. I have been issued both Remington 870s and Mossberg 590s, and I greatly prefer the Mossberg. Similarly, while the M4 is certainly my preference over the M16 when all things are considered, from a strictly shooting/accuracy/comfort during actual utilization standpoint, I prefer the M16A2 or M16A4 over the M4. I am 6'3" though and the stock length is comfortable for me, I'm sure little peo...ahhh...I mean...normal sized Americans...are probably better off with a slightly shorter stock as you mentioned.  |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:20:03 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And if by "flipping off the safety" you mean you're storing a semi-auto with a loaded chamber, please don't do that. None of the guns on the market today are drop/impact safe. Seriously? Crap. M-4 has be chambered to ghost load it. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:20:44 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be fair to Mossberg, the appropriate length of pull/stock length is related to the height of the shooter, and Sweden has one of the highest average heights in the world, along with their immediate neighbors. I have been issued both Remington 870s and Mossberg 590s, and I greatly prefer the Mossberg. Similarly, while the M4 is certainly my preference over the M16 when all things are considered, from a strictly shooting/accuracy/comfort during actual utilization standpoint, I prefer the M16A2 or M16A4 over the M4. I am 6'3" though and the stock length is comfortable for me, I'm sure little peo...ahhh...I mean...normal sized Americans...are probably better off with a slightly shorter stock as you mentioned. Even you people who are surplus to God's perfect outline for the human form (namely me) do better when the LOP is shorter. Especially as I will try to get you shooting with a squared up stance similar to the way we'd want you to use a carbine. Having your hips square is a good idea for a lot of reasons and the shorter stock lets you run the gun more on your chest than your shoulder joint...which has all kinds of benefits. |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:22:58 AM EST
[#47]
Silly Germans & Japanese must have hated the 1897 shotguns for ficticious reasons.
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:24:10 AM EST
[#48]
Wait till you get your hands on a semi auto with a holo sight
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:25:25 AM EST
[#49]
Idk I did a skeet shoot with a Turkish m1014 clone that had a red dot. At night with Nods
That thing straight fucked I kinda want one |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 8:27:43 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your mind is the weapon, anything is just a tool. Agree - the will to use those tools  Batman Begins - The Will to Act (Training Scene HD) |
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