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Posted: 8/1/2017 7:50:26 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
H&K admits themselves it's not a duty gun. They claim the vp9 isn't for serious use. So the 39,000 SFP9's (what the VP9 is called in Europe) in service with the Meck-Pomm, Saxony and Lower Saxony German State Police aren't for serious use? 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:04:26 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh really? So the 39,000 SFP9's (what the VP9 is called in Europe) in service with the Meck-Pomm, Saxony and Lower Saxony German State Police aren't for serious use? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
H&K admits themselves it's not a duty gun. They claim the vp9 isn't for serious use. So the 39,000 SFP9's (what the VP9 is called in Europe) in service with the Meck-Pomm, Saxony and Lower Saxony German State Police aren't for serious use? 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:12:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hopefully the French army doesn't adopt the 320.  |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:16:58 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<10yr police officer Whenever stuff like this happens it was most likely a big-Whig that hasn't handled his firearm in a year and somehow manages to ND it in the presence of underlings...and, to not loose face as the incompotent oaf he is says "I dropped it and it just went off", quickly shooting off a memo banning said firearm as "proof" he wasn't lying and isn't an idiot. Actually had a Commander try this once before he was educated that a Glock doesn't go off when dropped. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have it it from an active duty DPD officer; Friday an email went out, no Dallas PD officers are to carry the Sig 320 effective immediately. Officers were carrying these as authorized private purchase. RUMOR is they can discharge when dropped. <10yr police officer Whenever stuff like this happens it was most likely a big-Whig that hasn't handled his firearm in a year and somehow manages to ND it in the presence of underlings...and, to not loose face as the incompotent oaf he is says "I dropped it and it just went off", quickly shooting off a memo banning said firearm as "proof" he wasn't lying and isn't an idiot. Actually had a Commander try this once before he was educated that a Glock doesn't go off when dropped. He eventually went to another city and became the chief there. He promptly had another ND in his new office. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:17:07 AM EDT
[#5]
I've dropped mine a few times while running drills (I'm still somewhat of a beginner) and I had no issues.
Still my bedside gun. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:23:31 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't that weird trigger safety thingy found on just about every striker fired trigger other than the P320 part of the drop safety? 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/STEYR-PISTOL-M9-A1.png http://www.waltherarms.com/wp-content/uploads/pps-left.jpg http://assets.academy.com/mgen/72/10105872.jpg http://hkusa.s3.amazonaws.com/20160512201340/VP9-FDE-LEFT-NIGHT-SIGHTS-WEB.jpg https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/styles/product_main/public/firearms/images/209001_01_lg_1.jpg?itok=9yoWAbdR Does the P320 actually have a mechanism built into the trigger system to prevent the rearward movement of the trigger unless its pressed by a finger, like all of the others pictured? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:26:24 AM EDT
[#7]
How the hell do some of you guys drop your loaded guns?
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:26:25 AM EDT
[#8]
sig sauer has worked hard to bring out products for civilians, unlike HK, so i hope it works out.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:32:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never would have happened if they issued the HK VP9.  |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 8:37:32 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
H&K admits themselves it's not a duty gun. They claim the vp9 isn't for serious use. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Never would have happened if they issued the HK VP9. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:26:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh. I was called a liar when the 320 first came out for saying a couple guys in a 3 day class I was in, had the giant takedown levers cut the fuck out of their thumbs. On day 2 they went back to Glock. The "anything but Glock, Sig rules!!!!" fans assured me that 100rds slow fire at the square range developed no issues. Then Sig released lo-pro levers, and I was told it may have been an issue but is fixed now...
This thread is curiously missing a certain Sig employee that resembles Baghdad Bob at times when addressing serious Sig QC flaws... 
And I had a friend with a 556R that was shit and get fucked on warranty, and a co-worker with a now discontinued 556 thats gonna son be fucked on future parts/repairs.. I haven't worked for SIG is a few years now,and neither do most of the people I knew well. It is disheartening to see a product you believe in and worked on go through such issues. I did a ton of work specifically drop testing the 320, so I do wonder what they changed to see an issue. I also have read about these same rumors with every major brand and PDs. On one hand, the "evidence" for problems seems rather suspect. Most hear don't understand how the 320 trigger was designed to be inherently drop safe. On the other, while SIG makes great guns they treat their employees like disposable tools and basically lays off half of their production staff every year. You have problems retaining institutional knowledge and consistent quality when you mass fire and rehire faster than people can learn the job. I believe in their designs and product, but I'm sad to see how they treat employees and how that affects their final product. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:30:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most here don't understand how the 320 trigger was designed to be inherently drop safe. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:38:22 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please educate us. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Most here don't understand how the 320 trigger was designed to be inherently drop safe. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:43:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Didn't read all 6 pages, have we turned into full on purse swing mode yet?
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:44:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please educate us. I detail why this is here : https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/173064_.html&page=2&anc=1922878#i1922878 I'm not going to type all up again. As for the drop testing, the P320 was dropped tested in accordance with Army TOP, NATO AC/225, and the ANSI/SAAMI standards that define what is drop safe for firearms. Then the engineers created increased difficulty standards far above those industry standards to flush out more possible issues. Now, once again, that was early 2014. They very well could have had a qualify issue since then. But for all the "they should have tested the prototypes", we did, extensively. There's no testing like getting thousands of them into the hands of end users, and 5 generations later Glock still hasn't figured it out 100% either. I have no real vested interest in its success at this point, there's not even one in my safe yet (there is a Glock and the M&P I carried at SIG). I just genuinely believe in it. I'm also not brand loyal either and can seperate my brand list from my dick size. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:46:39 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Specifically, I see a lot of "this is why striker guns have tabbed triggers". I detail why this is here : https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/173064_.html&page=2&anc=1922878#i1922878 I'm not going to type all up again. As for the drop testing, the P320 was dropped tested in accordance with Army TOP, NATO AC/225, and the ANSI/SAAMI standards that define what is drop safe for firearms. Then the engineers created increased difficulty standards far above those industry standards to flush out more possible issues. Now, once again, that was early 2014. They very well could have had a qualify issue since then. But for all the "they should have tested the prototypes", we did, extensively. There's no testing like getting thousands of them into the hands of end users, and 5 generations later Glock still hasn't figured it out 100% either. I have no real vested interest in its success at this point, there's not even one in my safe yet. I just genuinely believe in it. I'm also not brand loyal either and can seperate my brand list from my dick size. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please educate us. I detail why this is here : https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/173064_.html&page=2&anc=1922878#i1922878 I'm not going to type all up again. As for the drop testing, the P320 was dropped tested in accordance with Army TOP, NATO AC/225, and the ANSI/SAAMI standards that define what is drop safe for firearms. Then the engineers created increased difficulty standards far above those industry standards to flush out more possible issues. Now, once again, that was early 2014. They very well could have had a qualify issue since then. But for all the "they should have tested the prototypes", we did, extensively. There's no testing like getting thousands of them into the hands of end users, and 5 generations later Glock still hasn't figured it out 100% either. I have no real vested interest in its success at this point, there's not even one in my safe yet. I just genuinely believe in it. I'm also not brand loyal either and can seperate my brand list from my dick size. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:47:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They adopted the superior sp2022. 
Got a bonus coming that the wife doesn't know about. 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:13:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every time my agency gets seriously interested in switching from a Glock, a rep from either a large Glock distributor and/or Glock rep shows up and has a meeting with the chief. Coincidentally, after these meetings, he decides to stay with them despite our armorers and trainers begging to switch. Other industries' sales reps provide vacations, swag, etc to purchasing agents to generate/keep contracts so is it possible Glock is doing that as well? Could that be why this stuff happens especially now that Glock is facing losing market share? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:17:40 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still regret selling mine.
Got a bonus coming that the wife doesn't know about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They adopted the superior sp2022.
Got a bonus coming that the wife doesn't know about. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:33:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since I'm active in the P320 threads I'll assume you're referring to me. I haven't worked for SIG is a few years now,and neither do most of the people I knew well. It is disheartening to see a product you believe in and worked on go through such issues. I did a ton of work specifically drop testing the 320, so I do wonder what they changed to see an issue. I also have read about these same rumors with every major brand and PDs. On one hand, the "evidence" for problems seems rather suspect. Most hear don't understand how the 320 trigger was designed to be inherently drop safe. On the other, while SIG makes great guns they treat their employees like disposable tools and basically lays off half of their production staff every year. You have problems retaining institutional knowledge and consistent quality when you mass fire and rehire faster than people can learn the job. I believe in their designs and product, but I'm sad to see how they treat employees and how that affects their final product. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:34:56 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did they helicopter drop test it? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:36:34 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're assuming DPDs helicopters can even get in the air.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:40:04 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They adopted the superior sp2022. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:49:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How the hell do some of you guys drop your loaded guns? I guess if shooting from a bench is all someone could ever imagine they would be confused about why a gun needs to be drop safe. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:50:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since I'm active in the P320 threads I'll assume you're referring to me. I haven't worked for SIG is a few years now,and neither do most of the people I knew well. It is disheartening to see a product you believe in and worked on go through such issues. I did a ton of work specifically drop testing the 320, so I do wonder what they changed to see an issue. I also have read about these same rumors with every major brand and PDs. On one hand, the "evidence" for problems seems rather suspect. Most hear don't understand how the 320 trigger was designed to be inherently drop safe. On the other, while SIG makes great guns they treat their employees like disposable tools and basically lays off half of their production staff every year. You have problems retaining institutional knowledge and consistent quality when you mass fire and rehire faster than people can learn the job. I believe in their designs and product, but I'm sad to see how they treat employees and how that affects their final product. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:53:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh really? So the 39,000 SFP9's (what the VP9 is called in Europe) in service with the Meck-Pomm, Saxony and Lower Saxony German State Police aren't for serious use? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
H&K admits themselves it's not a duty gun. They claim the vp9 isn't for serious use. So the 39,000 SFP9's (what the VP9 is called in Europe) in service with the Meck-Pomm, Saxony and Lower Saxony German State Police aren't for serious use? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:57:03 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every time my agency gets seriously interested in switching from a Glock, a rep from either a large Glock distributor and/or Glock rep shows up and has a meeting with the chief. Coincidentally, after these meetings, he decides to stay with them despite our armorers and trainers begging to switch. Other industries' sales reps provide vacations, swag, etc to purchasing agents to generate/keep contracts so is it possible Glock is doing that as well? Could that be why this stuff happens especially now that Glock is facing losing market share? Because form a purely maintenance point of view glocks are awesome. Easy to disassemble completely. The disassembly/assembly times are also very short. Lots of available parts. Gun will shoot with 6 broken parts as long as the shooter does not mash the trigger 5 parts if he does. Easy to train armorers how to work on them. So why do your armorers hate them? Glocks are not my favorite pistol but for use as a Police or Military gun as a standard issued sidearm they are hard to beat. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:58:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IS the striker/firing pin in a mostly forward position that is then puled back when the trigger is pulled? It utilizes a striker block like every modern production gun on the market. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:00:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC The P320 is a fully cocked striker, similar to the M&P and some others, unlike the Glocks partially cocked striker you describe. It utilizes a striker block like every modern production gun on the market. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
IS the striker/firing pin in a mostly forward position that is then puled back when the trigger is pulled? It utilizes a striker block like every modern production gun on the market. But even the M&P striker moves reward just a hair as it cams off the sear. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:04:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK. But even the M&P striker moves reward just a hair as it cams off the sear. You said "mostly forward". The sear will cam and move the striker back slightly, but the sear isn't cocking the striker like you described. Im also going off the fact I haven't torn one down in 3 years . |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:14:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I read somewhere on GD a while back that Glock takes potential clients to high-end strip clubs to help with the decision making process. Don't know if it's true. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Every time my agency gets seriously interested in switching from a Glock, a rep from either a large Glock distributor and/or Glock rep shows up and has a meeting with the chief. Coincidentally, after these meetings, he decides to stay with them despite our armorers and trainers begging to switch. Other industries' sales reps provide vacations, swag, etc to purchasing agents to generate/keep contracts so is it possible Glock is doing that as well? Could that be why this stuff happens especially now that Glock is facing losing market share? Glock is not above playing dirty to get contracts. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:30:10 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
H&K told MAC that the vp9 wasn't meant to be a serious gun and that's what their hammer guns are for. Don't know what else to tell ya. H&K said it not me. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:32:29 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh really? So the 39,000 SFP9's (what the VP9 is called in Europe) in service with the Meck-Pomm, Saxony and Lower Saxony German State Police aren't for serious use? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
H&K admits themselves it's not a duty gun. They claim the vp9 isn't for serious use. So the 39,000 SFP9's (what the VP9 is called in Europe) in service with the Meck-Pomm, Saxony and Lower Saxony German State Police aren't for serious use? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:37:10 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Omaha had a police chief who had a ND in his office at work. He eventually went to another city and became the chief there. He promptly had another ND in his new office. It is best to start off a new command with a desk pop. 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:40:26 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, I get what you're asking. You said "mostly forward". The sear will cam and move the striker back slightly, but the sear isn't cocking the striker like you described. Im also going off the fact I haven't torn one down in 3 years . I just haven't gotten a chance to rip one apart yet...soon I am sure.. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:41:09 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Madison, WI PD issues the VP9 as well. 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 11:52:18 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
H&K told MAC that the vp9 wasn't meant to be a serious gun and that's what their hammer guns are for. Don't know what else to tell ya. H&K said it not me. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:19:09 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not bullshit. Might have been Vickers but I think it was MAC. Saw it in a video or post by him a couple weeks ago. Maybe he'll come to this thread and clarify. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
H&K told MAC that the vp9 wasn't meant to be a serious gun and that's what their hammer guns are for. Don't know what else to tell ya. H&K said it not me. I wouldn't trust anything Larry Vickers said. He only shills for his Vickers Glock models. Anything else according to him is crap. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:35:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Hell if someone in NC has a aircraft I have a big field we can drop one in.
I could just take one next time I go skydiving and drop it. would make a good video. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:36:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Purchasing agent is a fancy name for professional whore on an epic scale (not all of em). I have no idea how the LEA's and contracts work but in some other industries it a whore buy off festival. I have done some buying decision making, and the golf, fishing trips, and such have all been turned down, I won't let my guys take advantage of any of em either. Give me product and service for a fair price and don't bug me or my guy's, we have a job to do....I am fun at partys |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:39:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So they're like pharma reps? Glock does have access to recruit smoking hot eastern European chicks. Sig should up their game with Oktoberfest beer wenches. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:46:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't read all 6 pages, have we turned into full on purse swing mode yet? 
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:54:06 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:58:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every time my agency gets seriously interested in switching from a Glock, a rep from either a large Glock distributor and/or Glock rep shows up and has a meeting with the chief. Coincidentally, after these meetings, he decides to stay with them despite our armorers and trainers begging to switch. Other industries' sales reps provide vacations, swag, etc to purchasing agents to generate/keep contracts so is it possible Glock is doing that as well? Could that be why this stuff happens especially now that Glock is facing losing market share? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:02:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm pretty sure, you're right about it being Tim. I wouldn't trust anything Larry Vickers said. He only shills for his Vickers Glock models. Anything else according to him is crap. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
H&K told MAC that the vp9 wasn't meant to be a serious gun and that's what their hammer guns are for. Don't know what else to tell ya. H&K said it not me. I wouldn't trust anything Larry Vickers said. He only shills for his Vickers Glock models. Anything else according to him is crap. Like Glock, I've never heard him speak negatively of anything HK as he has extensive business ties there. His Raven Concealment promodels only included his "go-to" guns (G19, G17, M9, 1911, and VP9). That said, you'd be misguided to take Vickers opinions and preferences in a vaccum. He's a wealth of knowledge, but (like all celebrity instructors) you can't treat them as the only authority. Ie: In a multitude of councilors there is safety. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:10:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Vickers speaks highly of the VP9. He claims his, with a a Grey Guns trigger job was "a modern P210". Like Glock, I've never heard him speak negatively of anything HK as he has extensive business ties there. His Raven Concealment promodels only included his "go-to" guns (G19, G17, M9, 1911, and VP9). That said, you'd be misguided to take Vickers opinions and preferences in a vaccum. He's a wealth of knowledge, but (like all celebrity instructors) you can't treat them as the only authority. Ie: In a multitude of councilors there is safety. Calling it a modern P210 is pretty laughable, imho.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:13:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What other pistol offers performance that is so far superior to Glock that it is worth re-training an entire department on a sidearm, re-training your armory staff, ordering new holsters and mag pouches, plus spare parts? Not sure how it is elsewhere, but many sheriff and police departments in Nebraska are having budget problems. A wholesale switch from Product A to Product B is extremely unlikely to happen. Many departments here simply choose to carry what the State Patrol carries because of the costs that come with T&E a new gun. Departments would still be buying new Crown Vics if they were still being made. Inertia is a bitch. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:28:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I own a VP9. Calling it a modern P210 is pretty laughable, imho. Just reporting as it's been put out http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/222012-larry-vickers-shooting-results-hk-vp9-custom-trigger-work.html#/topics/222012 |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:43:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never shot one. Just reporting as it's been put out http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/222012-larry-vickers-shooting-results-hk-vp9-custom-trigger-work.html#/topics/222012 . I'm positively mediocre when it comes to shooting handguns (good enough ) This was a box of ammo (124gr Golden Saber's, iirc) at 10 yards.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:48:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, I thought that was "normal" . I'm positively mediocre when it comes to shooting handguns (good enough) This was a box of ammo (124gr Golden Saber's, iirc) at 10 yards.
http://i.imgur.com/ZtPT5lK.jpg 
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