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Posted: 4/20/2018 5:36:02 PM EDT
[#1]
I wasn't special forces...but the infantry guys I followed around never used 3 round burst.
Always trained semi. We have machine guns for full auto. Semi is easier to control as well. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 5:40:33 PM EDT
[#2]
So many experts in here.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 5:43:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never used 3 round burst in Iraq. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 5:54:16 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Larry Vickers says, in the 25 years he was with Delta - they only used FA (on their Carbines) to establish a proper firing position/grip. Rob O’neill has said essentially the same, on multiple podcast. I've only ever used/seen FA fire in training situations to reinforce proper fundamentals of marksmanship. It is a great illustrator of whether or not you have a good, aggressive stance. Other than that single mag dump once per training cycle, it has very little use |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 5:54:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe if they have an endless supply of ammo on hand. We tried three round burst at the range and you can't hit shit. Saw a video of a dude wasting 800 rounds on a SAW shooting at a mountain and then ask the other dude for more ammo. What kind of ass whoopin do you give those guys. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 5:56:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never used one in combat, but on Farcry 5, full auto with the AR's is shitty. I use SA most of the time. Although burst fire with a suppressed M60 is the best. 
I did have a Marine friend who was a SAW gunner and he said he used FA for suppression and cover fire. He said he never used it with his rifle. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 5:57:51 PM EDT
[#7]
30 rounds goes fast...and you only carry so much ammo...
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:26:57 PM EDT
[#8]
METT-TC
Modern CQB training is pretty much always controlled pair. Units that train for CQB specifically rarely do FA. If you read "Reflections of a Warrior," by Franklin Miller (MACV-SOG Medal of Honor winner) for example, MACV-SOG and similar recon units in Vietnam fired bursts all the time. In general they were firing 25m or less and the targets were fleeting, partially obscured, and very close. In my conventional infantry deployments 90% of the guys we killed were killed by full auto. Mark19s, M2s, M240s fired by upgunners. There is nothing inherently evil wrong or stupid about it. I have done training with my soldiers and I would say out to about room distance, you can keep all the rounds from a burst on a human sillouette. Beyond that you waste ammo. Much of the issue is the design of the selector. If you are barging through a room surrounded by your friends you can quickly manipulate the weapon from safe to semi as you squeeze the trigger, but to get to auto the weapon has to already be off safe. There were millions of SMGs fielded in WWII, for good reasons. There were valid TTPs by well trained units where if you absolutely positively had to get up close to someone to throw in a hand grenade, automatic fire could keep the enemy's heads down without forcing the firer to expose himself too much. It is a tool in the toolbox, useful if you are trained for it. Harrison Summers of 1/502 killed thirty Germans on D-Day clearing rooms with a thompson SMG. He wasnt wrong. For recent deployments, no. All M4s were fired on semi. The ranges they were employed at were waaaaay too long to justify burst. I would say 95% of the time semi is the answer. "Always" and "never" are probably not the answer |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:35:18 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Marines found it useful for engaging bad guys running, they hit the bad guy more often. But, they had issues manipulating the selector 180 degrees quickly. They came to Bill Geissele and his solution was a spring loaded selector with a short throw. http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/img_1680.jpg Link |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:37:09 PM EDT
[#10]
I’ve never fired a shot in anger, but back in the Cold War, the only time we ever trained for full auto in the Danish infantry was when practicing for room clearing - so either for use in urban fighting, or in trenches/bunkers.
For any kind of fighting in terrain, it was semi only. Full auto was for the squad MG. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:42:29 PM EDT
[#11]
The bad guys always go full auto.
 
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:43:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I remember reading about one of the African conflicts, where one side did not have great resupply, so they modified their troopsFAL's to semi only, and their combat effectiveness went up. Not sure where I read that, though. Don't think they modified anything it was just a standing order |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:46:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was Rhodesia at the end when they were getting boycotted by the world Don't think they modified anything it was just a standing order Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I remember reading about one of the African conflicts, where one side did not have great resupply, so they modified their troopsFAL's to semi only, and their combat effectiveness went up. Not sure where I read that, though. Don't think they modified anything it was just a standing order |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:46:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Ammo’s heavy, yo.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:49:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
METT-TC Modern CQB training is pretty much always controlled pair. Units that train for CQB specifically rarely do FA. If you read "Reflections of a Warrior," by Franklin Miller (MACV-SOG Medal of Honor winner) for example, MACV-SOG and similar recon units in Vietnam fired bursts all the time. In general they were firing 25m or less and the targets were fleeting, partially obscured, and very close. In my conventional infantry deployments 90% of the guys we killed were killed by full auto. Mark19s, M2s, M240s fired by upgunners. There is nothing inherently evil wrong or stupid about it. I have done training with my soldiers and I would say out to about room distance, you can keep all the rounds from a burst on a human sillouette. Beyond that you waste ammo. Much of the issue is the design of the selector. If you are barging through a room surrounded by your friends you can quickly manipulate the weapon from safe to semi as you squeeze the trigger, but to get to auto the weapon has to already be off safe. There were millions of SMGs fielded in WWII, for good reasons. There were valid TTPs by well trained units where if you absolutely positively had to get up close to someone to throw in a hand grenade, automatic fire could keep the enemy's heads down without forcing the firer to expose himself too much. It is a tool in the toolbox, useful if you are trained for it. Harrison Summers of 1/502 killed thirty Germans on D-Day clearing rooms with a thompson SMG. He wasnt wrong. For recent deployments, no. All M4s were fired on semi. The ranges they were employed at were waaaaay too long to justify burst. I would say 95% of the time semi is the answer. "Always" and "never" are probably not the answer Full auto might have it's merits in very extreme cases, but I don't think anybody in the US trains for it. If you don't train for it, you probably aren't going to know when it's appropriate. And that goes for our European cousins who also have top shelf SOF & Infantry, and as far as I know, they only train and use semi auto in combat for their rifles. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:50:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would 3 round burst all the things  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I never used 3 round burst in Iraq. 
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:50:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol yes!  |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:52:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Full auto is pretty much limited to suppressive fire applications. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:52:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Violence of action is about it, I suspect. Clear a path quick or get their dicks in the dirt while you unass. Semi makes a lot more sense in almost every other situation.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 6:59:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My dad always said “full auto equals empty ammo” |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:02:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Full semi Auto is best Auto.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:07:50 PM EDT
[#22]
I fired 10rds out of a HK MP5/10, and I could only fire 3 rounds at a time while keeping the rounds on target.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:14:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Commando's?...Royal Marines, or British Army??
Not too many other arms I've seen wearing official Cdo insignia, but they let some Jacks try taking the course too, so a very few Royal Navy Cdo's are known to exist. No idea how they view full-auto - will ask them next time I meet one |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:14:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you have the most elite and experienced troops on the planet only using full auto once or twice in their whole career. How are you expecting Joe to have enough training to know when he should go to Full Auto? Full auto might have it's merits in very extreme cases, but I don't think anybody in the US trains for it. If you don't train for it, you probably aren't going to know when it's appropriate. And that goes for our European cousins who also have top shelf SOF & Infantry, and as far as I know, they only train and use semi auto in combat for their rifles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
METT-TC Modern CQB training is pretty much always controlled pair. Units that train for CQB specifically rarely do FA. If you read "Reflections of a Warrior," by Franklin Miller (MACV-SOG Medal of Honor winner) for example, MACV-SOG and similar recon units in Vietnam fired bursts all the time. In general they were firing 25m or less and the targets were fleeting, partially obscured, and very close. In my conventional infantry deployments 90% of the guys we killed were killed by full auto. Mark19s, M2s, M240s fired by upgunners. There is nothing inherently evil wrong or stupid about it. I have done training with my soldiers and I would say out to about room distance, you can keep all the rounds from a burst on a human sillouette. Beyond that you waste ammo. Much of the issue is the design of the selector. If you are barging through a room surrounded by your friends you can quickly manipulate the weapon from safe to semi as you squeeze the trigger, but to get to auto the weapon has to already be off safe. There were millions of SMGs fielded in WWII, for good reasons. There were valid TTPs by well trained units where if you absolutely positively had to get up close to someone to throw in a hand grenade, automatic fire could keep the enemy's heads down without forcing the firer to expose himself too much. It is a tool in the toolbox, useful if you are trained for it. Harrison Summers of 1/502 killed thirty Germans on D-Day clearing rooms with a thompson SMG. He wasnt wrong. For recent deployments, no. All M4s were fired on semi. The ranges they were employed at were waaaaay too long to justify burst. I would say 95% of the time semi is the answer. "Always" and "never" are probably not the answer Full auto might have it's merits in very extreme cases, but I don't think anybody in the US trains for it. If you don't train for it, you probably aren't going to know when it's appropriate. And that goes for our European cousins who also have top shelf SOF & Infantry, and as far as I know, they only train and use semi auto in combat for their rifles. As I said, 95% of the time you shouldnt use it. Fighting in urban terrain and deserts, like we are doing now, Id say 99.99% dont use it. However, it seems clear to me that when we fought in the jungle in WWII and Vietnam elite troops did train for it, and use it. In those cases, if contacts are 25M and under, telling someone to use an M16 or M4 in short bursts isnt that much different from how you'd train someone with a SAW or BAR. It is still aimed fire and you are still practicing fundamentals of marksmanship, quickly. In my own personal deployments I was comfortable telling people never to do it. METT-TC. I went to JOTC In Panama twice in the 90s, and they actually trained bursts; but when you stand in the jungle its pretty common sense. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:18:47 PM EDT
[#25]
The Walking Dead uses caseless bullets against Zombies.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:19:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryHe shot a lot of holes in the sky.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:20:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hurt someone’s feelings once 
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:21:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Commando's?...Royal Marines, or British Army?? Not too many other arms I've seen wearing official Cdo insignia, but they let some Jacks try taking the course too, so a very few Royal Navy Cdo's are known to exist. No idea how they view full-auto - will ask them next time I meet one |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:22:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryHas anyone ever actually counted how many casualties John Matrix inflicted?
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:27:47 PM EDT
[#30]
I don't know about commandos but Paratroopers usually don't unless you are a 240 or 249 gunner
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:28:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Now that I think of it at Checkpoint Charlie on Oct. 27, 1961 Colonel Windor gave the order to have everything on full auto immediately when firing started because the Russians would be making a massive attempt to take the buildings we were in. The Tankers had zeroed in and wanted to take the first 4 Russian tanks out because the ones behind them had no field of fire. In truth we were told by our WW2 NCO's SFC Toomey and SFC Moon we should be able to kill a bunch of them in the first 10 minutes and then hope we had stopped the first wave. I had an M2 Carbine for this and had taped two 30 round mags together.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:28:35 PM EDT
[#32]
There is only a narrow set of situations where an M4A1 on full auto would be more effective than on semi. Most combat does not fall in that category, however I would want the capability 100 percent. Just in case.
So to answer your question, yes. They are not often using it on full auto despite what Hollywood has you believe. There are guns in the squad directly designed for that role. (M240 etc) |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:29:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My dad always said “full auto equals empty ammo” |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:31:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now that I think of it at Checkpoint Charlie on Oct. 27, 1961 Colonel Windor gave the order to have everything on full auto immediately when firing started because the Russians would be making a massive attempt to take the buildings we were in. The Tankers had zeroed in and wanted to take the first 4 Russian tanks out because the ones behind them had no field of fire. In truth we were told by our WW2 NCO's SFC Toomey and SFC Moon we should be able to kill a bunch of them in the first 10 minutes and then hope we had stopped the first wave. I had an M2 Carbine for this and had taped two 30 round mags together. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:33:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1961?! Damn! |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:34:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Suppression fire isn't about accuracy...it's about throwing a lot of rounds downrange in a hurry in an attempt to keep some dipshit heads down while your buds move their asses. It's what machine guns were meant for...you really gotta be in a world of hurt if you need to be suppressing with your M16 or M4. Personally, if lacking an M60 or SAW, I'd prefer a couple of guys firing semi-auto than full...it makes that mag last a little bit longer. Last thing you want is to run dry when asses are still hanging out there. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:37:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
in my 4 years in the Army i never (outside of burning through ammo at the end of a range session) put my selector all the way back.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:38:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
However, it seems clear to me that when we fought in the jungle in WWII and Vietnam elite troops did train for it, and use it. In those cases, if contacts are 25M and under, telling someone to use an M16 or M4 in short bursts isnt that much different from how you'd train someone with a SAW or BAR. Otherwise, I completely agree with you. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 7:49:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Meh
That’s what machine guns are for. I’ve met guys with multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan that swapped out the FA fire control group for a Giselle or other great semi only trigger. These were High Power shooters in infantry guard units. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:16:27 PM EDT
[#40]
From Jeff Cooper's Commentaries....volume 1, page 1:
"I suppose nothing can be done about the erroneous assumption that hand held fully automatic fire is somehow more efficient than aimed fire. As I used to demonstrate, when I had a teaching job, quick semi-automatic fire is far more likely to produce results than bursts. Thus the preoccupation of the Feds with the idea that is it somehow an offense against God and man to convert a semi-automatic weapon to a fully automatic capacity is simply a manifestation of ignorance. If a man is shooting at me, I would much prefer that he were on full auto than carefully holding and squeezing. The automatic option is the greatest encourager of the spray-and-pray technique, which I have long done my best to discourage." Jeff Cooper In another commentary, Cooper says that if it came down to a real fight, he would prefer it if his opponent had a full auto weapon because the opponent would be inclined to spray and pray, thereby missing, while Cooper could take a carefully aimed shot and end the fight. A squad machine gun is different as it allows for other members of the squad to perform a flanking maneuver while the enemy is pinned down by volume of fire from the squad's machine gun. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:23:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From Jeff Cooper's Commentaries....volume 1, page 1: "I suppose nothing can be done about the erroneous assumption that hand held fully automatic fire is somehow more efficient than aimed fire. As I used to demonstrate, when I had a teaching job, quick semi-automatic fire is far more likely to produce results than bursts. Thus the preoccupation of the Feds with the idea that is it somehow an offense against God and man to convert a semi-automatic weapon to a fully automatic capacity is simply a manifestation of ignorance. If a man is shooting at me, I would much prefer that he were on full auto than carefully holding and squeezing. The automatic option is the greatest encourager of the spray-and-pray technique, which I have long done my best to discourage." Jeff Cooper In another commentary, Cooper says that if it came down to a real fight, he would prefer it if his opponent had a full auto weapon because the opponent would be inclined to spray and pray, thereby missing, while Cooper could take a carefully aimed shot and end the fight. A squad machine gun is different as it allows for other members of the squad to perform a flanking maneuver while the enemy is pinned down by volume of fire from the squad's machine gun. I haven't seen SAW's, 240's, or 50's held down for longer than 6 to 9 rounds...not for the real thing anyways...perhaps others have had different experiences. Although...in Afghanistan..we went on a camping with guns trip...and the Squad leader told the SAW gunner to do a 6-9 round burst test fire once we got to our place to stay for the night... I'm sitting next to the truck...just relaxing....watching this guy get ready to shoot at a mountain side.... He squeezes the trigger and holds. and holds. and holds... and holds... The squad leader starts yelling..."WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING? CEASE FIRE!!!" The guy stops...and looks at the Sergeant....and replies..."I thought you said a 69 round burst...." It was a fun night for that guy.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:28:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Both are tools and both have their uses. I haven't seen SAW's, 240's, or 50's held down for longer than 6 to 9 rounds...not for the real thing anyways...perhaps others have had different experiences. Although...in Afghanistan..we went on a camping with guns trip...and the Squad leader told the SAW gunner to do a 6-9 round burst test fire once we got to our place to stay for the night... I'm sitting next to the truck...just relaxing....watching this guy get ready to shoot at a mountain side.... He squeezes the trigger and holds. and holds. and holds... and holds... The squad leader starts yelling..."WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING? CEASE FIRE!!!" The guy stops...and looks at the Sergeant....and replies..."I thought you said a 69 round burst...." It was a fun night for that guy. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:30:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The squad leader starts yelling..."WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING? CEASE FIRE!!!" The guy stops...and looks at the Sergeant....and replies..."I thought you said a 69 round burst...." It was a fun night for that guy. 
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:42:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My gun dealer buddy has an MP5 and MP5SD full auto and I've emptied a few mags out of those... I timed one of them, it was like 4.2 seconds to dump a 32 round mag... As fast as it was actually pretty controllable.. Only the 1st 2-3 rounds had any kind of muzzle climb... We put a 2x2x2 card board box out with targets on it at about 7 or so yards and at 15 yards and were able to keep the majority of rounds on target... Too rich for my blood, but Fun AF.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I feel like I would only fire a MP5 on auto given the choice I timed one of them, it was like 4.2 seconds to dump a 32 round mag... As fast as it was actually pretty controllable.. Only the 1st 2-3 rounds had any kind of muzzle climb... We put a 2x2x2 card board box out with targets on it at about 7 or so yards and at 15 yards and were able to keep the majority of rounds on target... Too rich for my blood, but Fun AF.... As far as the original question goes, three words. Break contact drill. If I'm ever in a firefight, I want the opposition spraying and praying on Full auto.
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:45:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you have the most elite and experienced troops on the planet only using full auto once or twice in their whole career. How are you expecting Joe to have enough training to know when he should go to Full Auto? Full auto might have it's merits in very extreme cases, but I don't think anybody in the US trains for it. If you don't train for it, you probably aren't going to know when it's appropriate. And that goes for our European cousins who also have top shelf SOF & Infantry, and as far as I know, they only train and use semi auto in combat for their rifles. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:52:10 PM EDT
[#46]
There is a place for full auto on the M4. One of the problems is that we patrol in safe and rotate when we engage the target. Hard to get it all the way around to auto quickly. I had an issue with some pop ups closer than I anticipated and really could have used full auto. Semi wasn't the best solution. I got lucky.
I like where geiselle is going with their selector. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 9:07:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Suppressed MP5 on FA is pure sex. As far as the original question goes, three words. Break contact drill. If I'm ever in a firefight, I want the opposition spraying and praying on Full auto. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I feel like I would only fire a MP5 on auto given the choice I timed one of them, it was like 4.2 seconds to dump a 32 round mag... As fast as it was actually pretty controllable.. Only the 1st 2-3 rounds had any kind of muzzle climb... We put a 2x2x2 card board box out with targets on it at about 7 or so yards and at 15 yards and were able to keep the majority of rounds on target... Too rich for my blood, but Fun AF.... As far as the original question goes, three words. Break contact drill. If I'm ever in a firefight, I want the opposition spraying and praying on Full auto. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 9:22:19 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Commando's?...Royal Marines, or British Army?? Not too many other arms I've seen wearing official Cdo insignia, but they let some Jacks try taking the course too, so a very few Royal Navy Cdo's are known to exist. No idea how they view full-auto - will ask them next time I meet one |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 9:24:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You hear that they don't use it, but then why would they want the SOCOM profile barrel and a switch from 3 round to full?  |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 9:30:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You must be chaffing your nuts right now. |
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