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Posted: 8/9/2019 1:50:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
.. from possessing guns would reduce the occurrence of these mass shootings? I'm referring to the ADD meds, ambien, psychotropic and such. We all know that killers will kill. Whether with a gun or a car or a donut, but I'm talking about users of prescribe mind altering medications. Would you be pissed if it was added to the 4473? You gonna put lattes on that list too 
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Posted: 8/9/2019 1:55:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Wouldn't marijuana use on the 4473 seem to answer that question? If you can bar one substance why can't you bar others?
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Posted: 8/9/2019 1:55:52 PM EDT
[#3]
People on here take Ambien and Ritalin, Adderall, etc. Antidepressants, benzos, etc. Go disarm them if that is your plan.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 1:58:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
.. from possessing guns would reduce the occurrence of these mass shootings? I'm referring to the ADD meds, ambien, psychotropic and such. We all know that killers will kill. Whether with a gun or a car or a donut, but I'm talking about users of prescribe mind altering medications. Would you be pissed if it was added to the 4473? There is a difference from recognizing that you have a bit of a problem with depression, PTSD, ADD, and so on, and seeking appropriate treatment, and being outright fucking insane or a sociopath. FWIW, I take no medications regularly other than ibuprofen and have no diagnosed psychiatric disorders. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:01:41 PM EDT
[#5]
One of the biggest reasons I held off talking to a doctor about my chronic anxiety and depression was fear of having my problems in some file that could someday make me a prohibited person. I can tell you firsthand, that isn't a fun way to go through life.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:05:19 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:07:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
.. from possessing guns would reduce the occurrence of these mass shootings? I'm referring to the ADD meds, ambien, psychotropic and such. There goes at least half the cops I worked with on midnights. 
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:08:09 PM EDT
[#8]
OP, that is a particularly stupid idea and you should feel bad about expressing it.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:10:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, that is a particularly stupid idea and you should feel bad about expressing it. 
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:12:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Doctors dispense meds like candy at Halloween. Trying to judge who's too crazy to own a gun and vice-versa that way is a crapshoot at best.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:13:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That, and all other plans that punish people who seek voluntary mental health treatment, will likely increase the likelihood of people avoiding treatment that could help them to lead better lives. Even if it didn't necessarily lead to mass shootings as a result, I bet it would increase suicides in people who otherwise would've sought help. There is a difference from recognizing that you have a bit of a problem with depression, PTSD, ADD, and so on, and seeking appropriate treatment, and being outright fucking insane or a sociopath. FWIW, I take no medications regularly other than ibuprofen and have no diagnosed psychiatric disorders. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:13:33 PM EDT
[#12]
The reason the fuckers are on the shit to begin with is because they are fucked up. Nobody ever says “I’m surprised Bob did this! He was such a well adjusted individual!”
I’m not even sure what a good solution is to the problem is. Parents can see the warning signs that their kids are crazy shits but often ignore it like the Newtown shooters mom did. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:19:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the biggest reasons I held off talking to a doctor about my chronic anxiety and depression was fear of having my problems in some file that could someday make me a prohibited person. I can tell you firsthand, that isn't a fun way to go through life. How about we remove protections from police departments and other government agencies who seemingly refuse to act on valid threats like was the case with Cruz? There was no excuse for that clusterfuck. Truth be told, I don't really think there is a balance to be had. You try to get in the middle somehow and you still have to rely on the decision of a person who may have biases against gun owners. That's unacceptable. Panels of so called experts will likely yield the same results given the appearance of the medical and psych community leaning left. Judges will likely err on the side of confiscation from individuals because they want to get re-elected or reappointed, or just keep their job and not face political pressure. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:20:47 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The reason the fuckers are on the shit to begin with is because they are fucked up. Nobody ever says “I’m surprised Bob did this! He was such a well adjusted individual!” I’m not even sure what a good solution is to the problem is. Parents can see the warning signs that their kids are crazy shits but often ignore it like the Newtown shooters mom did. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:25:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
.. from possessing guns would reduce the occurrence of these mass shootings? I'm referring to the ADD meds, ambien, psychotropic and such. We all know that killers will kill. Whether with a gun or a car or a donut, but I'm talking about users of prescribe mind altering medications. Would you be pissed if it was added to the 4473? I can imagine it now... people under ACA insurance, that “need” drugs to be mentally stable, are pacified and debilitated. And disarmed with the help of mandatory 4473 forms that threaten a class d felony if they choose to say no on the medication section that would disqualify and directly infringe apon the right to arms. Which, compared to prison and a record... wont be worth it. (Sorry some people wont understand always that my context of the word cucked means FUCKED) |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:26:39 PM EDT
[#16]
No. Because you're targeting people who are doing their best to manage their illness. The ones to go after are the ones with the illness who AREN'T taking their meds. And good luck with that. Finding them means you have to get information from their doctors, and that's another uphill battle down a slippery slope.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:30:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Because you're targeting people who are doing their best to manage their illness. The ones to go after are the ones with the illness who AREN'T taking their meds. And good luck with that. Finding them means you have to get information from their doctors, and that's another uphill battle down a slippery slope. I know what I'd choose given those options. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:30:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain to me how a mild stimulant like Ritalin causes someone to go on killing spree. You gonna put lattes on that list too @TheImminent |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:34:09 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There goes at least half the cops I worked with on midnights. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
.. from possessing guns would reduce the occurrence of these mass shootings? I'm referring to the ADD meds, ambien, psychotropic and such. There goes at least half the cops I worked with on midnights.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:34:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Well, I don't feel bad for asking it. I only know that asking it here is a stupid idea because some can't have a discussion, but would rather try and score cool points by posting the wittiest drivel that GD is known for.
Many prescrips change the function and pathways of serotonin and/or dopamine. This changes the decision making process and compromises the person's ability to have rational, level minded thought. Look, I get that the 4473 can be lied on and has been since it began. In the case of this tool in El Paso, there were no real indicators at cursory glance that he was headed down this path. Is it a matter of spoiled brats that play too much video games? Or was he another kid that had been taking Ritalin since he was in 1st grade, adjusting his neurological pathways that perhaps result in a dumbass idea like killing a bunch of random people? I've been in this world too long to be fooled by the notion that there is a sacrificial lamb to lay on the alters to appease the liberal antigun crowd until next time. I just wonder if the prescription meds that are taken legally and looked over may contribute to the instability of some users. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:35:25 PM EDT
[#21]
No, all it would do is lead to more people who should be on medication(s) to not seek the care they need for fear of losing their 2A rights.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:36:06 PM EDT
[#22]
No
Correlation doesn’t equal causation Millions of people take meds and don’t commit mass murder, Just like millions of Americans own ar15’s but because a handful of people break the law they want to ban them See how that works? |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:39:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These drugs do not make you do anything. What they do is lower inhibition just like a lot of other drugs but these do it chemically to your brain changing your brain chemistry. So things you once would not do because you had your conscience holding you back or your moral compass has been modified. You could go the route of more promiscuous sex or you could do more sadistic things that you once would not do. For the same reason people act drastically different when intoxicated with alcohol same with psychotropic drugs. Combine that with a person who is already mentally unstable and you have a recipe for... well turn on the news. It may be rare that these things occur because the vast majority still have high enough inhibition but for someone with low already this just pretty much wipes out what is left. @TheImminent |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:40:32 PM EDT
[#24]
If a drug can alter the mind of someone to the point that they devalue their own life and are willing to take it (so much so that the Pharma companies have to list suicide as a side effect), why wouldn't that same medicine cause someone to devalue the lives of others and be willing to take those too?
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:44:32 PM EDT
[#25]
There is a long list of those type drugs and they can have more than one use. Some are even being used in place of some pain medications. A lot of people would get caught in that net that should not. No way to make that net dolphin safe.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:44:48 PM EDT
[#26]
NO.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:45:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. Someone with untreated schizophrenia or bipolar disorder may act and behave that way but not because they are on meds |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:46:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Would you be pissed if it was added to the 4473? Once upon a time someone thought that wasn't a big deal, yet here we are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incrementalism Incrementalism is a method of working by adding to a project using many small incremental changes instead of a few (extensively planned) large jumps. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:46:34 PM EDT
[#29]
So if you take something to help you sleep at night your prohibited?
The problem is there's no end once you start down this road....one person has a bad reaction to a med and now everyone else who takes it is added to the list. Just listen to the side effects listed on virtually every commercial. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:47:16 PM EDT
[#30]
I wonder how surprised everyone who keeps spewing this "fix the mental health requirements" is going to be when they finally "do something" and half the people here become prohibited persons.
First order or business.....should we bring back mental institutions to lock up everyone with PTSD or do you think just confiscating their guns will be enough? |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:47:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Something like 17% of the US adult population uses some form of psychiatric medication, including over 21% of women. Does it really seem reasonable to prevent them from exercising their rights?
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2592697 |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:50:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something like 17% of the US adult population uses some form of psychiatric medication, including over 21% of women. Does it really seem reasonable to prevent them from exercising their rights? https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2592697 See: Fudds. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:53:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok then please enlighten us all with your knowledge then. Also read what I said I was not talking about untreated mental disorders. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. Someone with untreated schizophrenia or bipolar disorder may act and behave that way but not because they are on meds |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:55:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Yeah, making people choose between their mental health and possessing firearms is a great idea OP!! |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:56:57 PM EDT
[#35]
Alcohol is a psychoactive depressant, anyone who isn't a teetotaler should be banned from owning firearms. JK
Preventing people who use psychotropic prescription medications from owning firearms seems to be a surefire way to stop people from getting psychiatric help. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:57:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Why are we trying to find a solution for something that is statistically irrelevant is the better question?
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:59:02 PM EDT
[#37]
I just wonder if the prescription meds that are taken legally and looked over may contribute to the instability of some users
IMO absolutely! The fault belongs at the feet of those who numb the psychological condition with drugs that topically “treat” the symptoms. They will have symptoms no longer with daily medication. I could only imagine how that will exhaggerate the psychosis, etc while on the surface the patient will exhibit a medicated norm and people will go about their life and complacency. Im not taking any sort of stab at those who are on meds, i only emplore to evaluate the core issue before anyone rests easy that the problem is gone. Also IMO, that is why these mass killings are happening, meds or no our society, not to mention the lack of sanity to begin with, but how we treat mental health problems is an utter failure. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 2:59:52 PM EDT
[#38]
My son takes Focalin XR to help with ADD. It has made a huge difference in his ability to complete his assignments, do homework, etc.
Nothing about this makes him dangerous. Maybe we should investigate rampant over-prescribing of SSRIs |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:00:41 PM EDT
[#39]
As long as my cocaine stays legal.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:02:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
.. from possessing guns would reduce the occurrence of these mass shootings? I'm referring to the ADD meds, ambien, psychotropic and such. We all know that killers will kill. Whether with a gun or a car or a donut, but I'm talking about users of prescribe mind altering medications. Would you be pissed if it was added to the 4473? I think people who legit need meds would start avoiding doctors, and avoid getting put on the meds they need to keep them stable. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:05:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you pissed that a 33+ year old M16 is $30,000? Once upon a time someone thought that wasn't a big deal, yet here we are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incrementalism Incrementalism is a method of working by adding to a project using many small incremental changes instead of a few (extensively planned) large jumps. but we still frequently fill out 4473s that ask a number of restrictive questions and we are expected to be honest on there. I know that the truth is that even if the nutcase wants a gun, it's only a small obstacle to get one, no matter the enhanced background check, or efforts to prevent it. People are murdered weekly in Chicago. gun laws don't even slow the flow. IMO, the root of this goes to a number of sources from ineffective parenting and discipline, lack of accountability, gov't nanny state, media obsession and much more. The issue is that I dare say, no one on this site of 60,000+ gun owners killed anyone this week and probably fired tens of thousands of rounds without negative results (other than missing the target a lot). Yet, we should be the best equipped to give insight on how to mitigate it. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:10:59 PM EDT
[#42]
How long have you been a physician, OP?
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:15:34 PM EDT
[#43]
I've been in the pharma industry for 30 years. I've made them and helped develop them.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:20:58 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have any firsthand experience using any of these medications? Know anyone who does? They save lives. Try having depression or OCD and see if you last a year. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: You don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. Someone with untreated schizophrenia or bipolar disorder may act and behave that way but not because they are on meds Have suffered or not suffered from a mental issue has not bearing on knowing how a particular drug will react with someone. When you step back and look at something objectively and study how the drug works chemically in the body you gain a better understanding of what the pharmaceutical company was trying to accomplish. Yes I do have first hand knowledge of the chemistry behind how many drugs work and how they function I have a BA and MA in Biology and Chemistry. What I can tell you is the drugs are many times prescribed incorrectly and for the most part it has a positive effect on the user but that is not the problem. The problem is that small minority that get the drugs prescribed and it has the wrong intended effect. I saw it first hand in my cousin who is bi-polar and suffers from depression they had the complete wrong effect on her. Why do you think one of the side effects they mention in the commercials they say "if you have thoughts of suicide" to stop or contact your doctor? Because the drugs lower ones inhibition that normally tells you not to do this or that making it easier to overcome that mind hurdle. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:21:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been in the pharma industry for 30 years. I've made them and helped develop them. I know well what they do and how they do it. My wife has been on Prozac since our baby came, post-pardum depression sucks. I would have been more worried before she got on Prozac. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:22:31 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Because you're targeting people who are doing their best to manage their illness. The ones to go after are the ones with the illness who AREN'T taking their meds. And good luck with that. Finding them means you have to get information from their doctors, and that's another uphill battle down a slippery slope. If you need antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc, I'm sorry, but you're mentally compromised. Should mentally ill people have access to firearms? It's funny how the needle moves when it effects yourself. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:22:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
.. from possessing guns would reduce the occurrence of these mass shootings? I'm referring to the ADD meds, ambien, psychotropic and such. We all know that killers will kill. Whether with a gun or a car or a donut, but I'm talking about users of prescribe mind altering medications. Would you be pissed if it was added to the 4473? There's no way a 'gun grabber law' could examine each and every individual's prescribed pharmacological intent for their Doc prescribing a medication or all the pharmacokinetic interactions possible. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:24:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then you should know that crazies gonna crazy... Starting (or stopping) meds can affect things like mood and impulse control. My wife has been on Prozac since our baby came, post-pardum depression sucks. I would have been more worried before she got on Prozac. Honestly, I don't think that the mental health problem is the issue to fix. I just have to wonder if the meds side of the equation contributes to these dickheads shooting people. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:28:10 PM EDT
[#49]
Stop giving murders and politicians over us. Stop calling for red flags and gun confiscation. Of all places we shouldn’t have this kind of bullshit suggested here.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 3:29:17 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do. I don't expect my question to be a solution. I'm only asking a question and it's only one facet of the problem. Honestly, I don't think that the mental health problem is the issue to fix. I just have to wonder if the meds side of the equation contributes to these dickheads shooting people. It would be an interesting study to gather all the variables of these mass shooters and see if a pattern arises. What drugs they take, family up bringing, PET scan of the brain, etc etc.... |
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