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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:10:30 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a fan of this. I would rather my vehicle get 50mpg than 15mpg...but this isn't gonna ruin my life. That is kind of the direction the EPA was pushing car ownership economics with their proposed standards. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:11:24 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My last motorcycle, a Kawasaki Vulcan 750, averaged 50 mpg. Remember this is an average. In order to get there they had to make up the difference with ridiculously small cars and electric cars.....which most people don't want. This is good for America. I'll need to check my history lessons. This seems to go against what the founding fathers wanted when they designed American government. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:12:05 AM EST
[#3]
"When CAFE legislated the large V8 American automobile out of existence, what did people do? They turned to V8 sport utilities and V8 pickup trucks because that was the only place where you could still get the driving pleasure and power of a big V8 engine."
- Bob Lutz Unintended consequences. How do they work? CAFE regulations are one of the dumbest things the federal government has ever done. They greatly favored foreign car makers who were already used to making shitty little cars and probably increased total petroleum consumption by forcing buyers into trucks and SUVs. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:12:14 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it's not currently possible. America already gets rolling blackouts on the electric grid. How would it handle it if 50,000,000 ICE vehicles suddenly switched to electric? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:12:56 AM EST
[#5]
god damn fucking finally.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:14:46 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @dave3533 What vehicle gets 200 mpg? The car I saw this in was a Prius Prime, but as I said, I would imagine any current plug in hybrid sedan could achieve this easy (under the conditions above). I will reiterate, "most" people probably commute in the 20-40 mile range each day, so the 200MPG is easy to attain for "most" users of those vehicles. I've seen this driver's average MPG well over 200 MPG, and his commute is approximately 25 miles one way to work, over hilly terrain. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:14:51 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In order to reach the higher mileage requirements, manufacturers are having to make the cars lighter, which means accidents that were not fatal a few years ago, are now. The cars are lighter and cant withstand the imacts of severe accidents. They also cost more due to trying to wring mileage out of everything available. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:18:07 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is being done because that target was absurd. Thermodynamics and aerodynamics are a bitch. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Citizen's United virtually guarantees that corporations have more political pull than citizens or special interest groups. This is being done because big oil doesn't want to lose its pull on the world. 
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:20:15 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're right, speaking in absolutes usually isn't the best thing to do, although I'm still of the opinion that a large portion of .gov regulations hurt more than they help. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:20:39 AM EST
[#10]
You guys salivating over Telsa and other similar electric vehicles are ignoring the major factor that is holding back dumping the IC engine: energy density.
Volumetricly, NO current electric car battery system can match the energy found in an equivalent volume of gasoline. And even with current battery technology improvement forecasts, such parity is a LONG ways off. Electric vehicles make sense for urban commuters and the like. But, for long-range travel and overall flexibility, a gasoline powered IC engine still wins by a large margin. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:21:05 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm stunned that there are people here, on this forum, who are actually trying to defend this insane regulation. Banning 30 MPG cars is just as illogical, arbitrary, and freedom-hating as banning 30 round mags. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:22:12 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? Not to mention, c) hybrid batteries pollute more in their manufacturing than nowmal vehicles, including the bullshit co2 issue.+ Txl |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:22:43 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not going to change overnight like that. It will be a gradual but constant growth in acceptance which I'm sure our grid can keep up with...We don't have to deal in absolutes Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: No, it's not currently possible. America already gets rolling blackouts on the electric grid. How would it handle it if 50,000,000 ICE vehicles suddenly switched to electric? You want to keep this regulation in place but you are completely clueless on what it'd take to reach that. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:24:31 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your point was that it's impossible. It clearly is possible with current technology, just not widely adopted (yet). Tesla is already working on semi trucks that are electrified. Your own tastes and preferences don't matter, the efficient market will dictate the direction this goes. And my guess is the market will decide ICE are ancient technology. Of course you will still be able to drive whatever the heck you want, but as the alternatives become more advanced, cheaper, and capable as the technology matures my bet is even the naysayers will get on board. If you could drive the same vehicle you drive right now, or one that looks exactly the same but cost the same or less and gets 55mpg +, has more power and reliability, would you still choose the ICE? I bet most would switch. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:25:30 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Electric vehicles make sense for urban commuters and the like. But, for long-range travel and overall flexibility, a gasoline powered IC engine still wins by a large margin. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:26:36 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:27:54 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"When CAFE legislated the large V8 American automobile out of existence, what did people do? They turned to V8 sport utilities and V8 pickup trucks because that was the only place where you could still get the driving pleasure and power of a big V8 engine." - Bob Lutz Unintended consequences. How do they work? CAFE regulations are one of the dumbest things the federal government has ever done. They greatly favored foreign car makers who were already used to making shitty little cars and probably increased total petroleum consumption by forcing buyers into trucks and SUVs. even a mere human can smack away the hand of a god everyone in a while, but the price, Chrysler? owned by the Italians, Ford? far to stressed for its own good, and GM? it needed to be bought out with tax payer money ... |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:28:04 AM EST
[#18]
I have no issue with there being a recommended goal. How they get there should be up to the companies. Smog sucks. Getting 12 mpg sucks too. I had a little 3 banger in Japan that got incredible milage. Well north of 40 mpg. Couldnt go very fast though.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:31:19 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol teslas truck is a wet fucking dream. I own 4 clsss 8 trucks. Take a look at their stock price lately? You aren't going to average 55mpg Fleetwood, and that's all there is to it. Some of us don't live in an urban shithole and have to drive farther than 50 miles at a time. The internal combustion engine will be around longer than you and i. A little over 100 years ago "man will never fly"....a little over 60 years ago "man will never get to the moon"....and in this thread "internal combustion engines will never be replaced" |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:31:34 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't really care if you consider solar energy as the primary sustainable source of energy, but its not accurate to characterize sustainable energy that way. The economics for solar can make sense in many cases. I haven't looked into this for some time, but in a place like Arizona, where there is ~220 W/m2 of solar (based on memory, this could be wrong), the NPV of installing solar panels can make sense. The research side of conversion efficiency is still strong, which is great. At the end of they day, a super long term plan focuses on finite resources that outweigh other finite resources. FWIW I'm a chemical engineer by education, where thermodynamics and economics are the primary bases of my education. I won't touch on the logical fallacies that can be drawn Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:33:38 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are wanting 55mpg by 2025. The only feasible way to reach that is with plug in electric or hybrid cars. 6 years is practically overnight when it comes to major infrastructure projects like the power grid. Just doing major powerline engineering, environmental studies, and permits take years. That doesn't even include how to generate the power. You want to keep this regulation in place but you are completely clueless on what it'd take to reach that. one compact, one midsize, and one suv. no mustangs or camaros no M5s or 911s no F sports or STIs no LS or S class no trucks no jeeps no stingers nothing, just barren, lifeless husks of cars |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:33:45 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Say that again? I'll need to check my history lessons. This seems to go against what the founding fathers wanted when they designed American government. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:33:54 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are right, the US is not all "an urban shithole", which is why the ENTIRE trucking industry won't/can't switch overnight. But the technology is there (already now) to do shorter heavy trucking duties. You are right, it might not be Tesla that does it, and their stock situation has lots of dynamics behind it. But the point is the technology exists already, and slowly over time as the technology gets better, the trucks will go further and further until it makes more sense to use electric. As a trucker I'm sure you very well know how much money you are spending on gas and how it eats into your paycheck. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:39:03 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you know what's even more costly to my business than fuel? Fucking breakdowns by all this wonderful new efficiency and emissions equipment mandated by the worthless federal government before they were technologically ready. Do you think electricity is free? Have you considered how much the batteries weigh that could propel a truck weighing 80 to 100k a reasonable distance? Did you consider how badly that battery weight will cut into cargo carrying capacity and drive up shipping costs for every item on the shelf at your local store? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:39:41 AM EST
[#25]
Thank god. You guys have no idea how much more cars cost now and would cost I. The future trying g to meet these fleet mileage standards. We are getting butt fucked on vehicle prices for drastically diminishing returns on mpg.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:41:22 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I have a technical question. Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks @ColtRifle |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:43:44 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would guess most current plug in hybrid sedans can, if your commute is in the 20-40 mile range. Which I'm sure is "most" people. I have seen this MPG figure in person in a vehicle used under these same commute stipulations. Not a fluke or gaming the MPG computer, just average 200 MPG. Of course you people keep bringing up that "OMG I DRIVE 1000 miles a day, what then??", well, then your hybrid just starts up it's gas engine and you probably still get 40MPG easy. The car I saw this in was a Prius Prime, but as I said, I would imagine any current plug in hybrid sedan could achieve this easy (under the conditions above). I will reiterate, "most" people probably commute in the 20-40 mile range each day, so the 200MPG is easy to attain for "most" users of those vehicles. I've seen this driver's average MPG well over 200 MPG, and his commute is approximately 25 miles one way to work, over hilly terrain. Your friend's numbers are not really reality. And, he has not calculated in the cost of the charge. Any idea what that costs him per charge? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:46:09 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I have a technical question. Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:49:17 AM EST
[#29]
I'm going to sleep but here is one statement that I want to make (from someone who traveled and attended DJT's inauguration)
Individuals need to think for themselves based on fact and details. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:49:59 AM EST
[#30]
I'll have to disagree. I think we need to keep pushing manufacturers to develop more and more fuel efficient cars. Gas prices will just keep going up, and it will affect economic growth in the future. It will also affect national security as the world oil supply diminishes and we need fuel for military use.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:51:16 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your friend's numbers are not really reality. And, he has not calculated in the cost of the charge. Any idea what that costs him per charge? As far as the power cost I’m not sure what the battery capacity is on those but you could take the battery watt hour rating and look up the average electricity cost per kilowatt hour to find out. I think average here is 12 cents per kilowatt hour. But I’m sure it is still cheaper than gas to operate. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:55:56 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be honest, I'm not going to try and figure this out right now. This a question that is really interesting and can probably be googled, but I feel like there is a lot of inputs I dont want to figure out right now. It boils down to energy density, in which gasoline ranks pretty high. The point that I think needs to be conveyed is mpge or mile per gallon equivalency. If you have an electric car, that electricity needs to be generated. Is that from natural gas or hydroelectric? It makes a big difference in terms of the sustainability aspect of the fuel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So I have a technical question. Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks Or is there more to it than that? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:57:36 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve seen the number as calculated by the car myself. I’m sure he has other trips into town that are all electric that raise the average. But he doesn’t “drive” any different than a normal person, so I would expect most people to get the same. As far as the power cost I’m not sure what the battery capacity is on those but you could take the battery watt hour rating and look up the average electricity cost per kilowatt hour to find out. I think average here is 12 cents per kilowatt hour. But I’m sure it is still cheaper than gas to operate. All electric vehicles don't burn gas period. Doesn't mean they don't burn fuel.....their fuel is burned at the power plant to make the electricity. It's kind of like if you had a car that has a gasoline and a diesel engine. You run half you commute on gas, half on diesel and then say you get XYZ mpg on gas while adding the diesel run miles to the gas miles. It's sort of true....But not 100% accurate. Auto makers are having to make silly cars like that to raise their mpg average. Take away the tax subsidies and electric cars aren't the wonderful solution some seem to think they are. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:59:17 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Clearly a man can never walk on the moon, it's impossible. The answer to all of these points is covered in the post you are quoting. It's not going to "work" for all scenarios immediately, but over time my guess is the efficient market will decide that hybrid and electric vehicles are more "efficient". Or maybe we should just stop innovating. I mean who believes that there are things you can't see that make you sick? That is ridiculous! |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:02:18 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a gasoline engine is 50% efficient now, then could we add the other 50% and start subtracting transmission loss, weight, wind drag, etc? Or is there more to it than that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So I have a technical question. Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks Or is there more to it than that? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:04:12 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
High efficiency vehicles aren't going anywhere if they do this. It's a huge selling point for a massive number of consumers. Let the market decide. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:05:41 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree -- Let the market decide BUT LET'S BE HONEST ABOUT IT -- take away the Govt tax credits and price subsidies on hybrids & plug-ins, and see what happens to that "huge selling point" when the TRUE additional cost of hybrids and plug-in cars must be paid out of the consumer's pocket. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:05:54 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think most gas engines are in the 20-30% efficient range. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So I have a technical question. Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks Or is there more to it than that? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:09:55 AM EST
[#39]
The liberal tears will be GLORIOUS !!!
 
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:10:03 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:19:19 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But will the formula still work good enough for a ballpark? Im kinda curious myself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So I have a technical question. Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks Or is there more to it than that? Vehicle weight is a huge factor as well so assuming a 100% efficient engine, an F250 will still get lower mpg than a Prius. But, I just wonder what the theoretical maximum is. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:25:10 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a fan of this. I would rather my vehicle get 50mpg than 15mpg...but this isn't gonna ruin my life. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:39:01 AM EST
[#43]
Nail in the coffin for TSLA
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Posted: 3/30/2018 3:07:55 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: how is this going to mend fences? last I checked consumers liked more fuel efficient cars so they don't have to spend as much on gas. and not for nothing you honestly think rolling back efficiency rules is going to mend fences for all the broken promised? dream the fuck on. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 3:10:27 AM EST
[#45]
You can kinda hear the giant sigh of relief from Jeep. Maybe it will ease the prices on new Wranglers.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 3:19:53 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wasn't trying to make that statement absolute. We are suffering through a period where the words matter less than those who spoke them. It seems that everyone who flocks to a statement bases it on who broadcasts those words without thinking or researching them. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 3:57:52 AM EST
[#47]
I guess buying a hemi Jeep was premature
.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 4:16:27 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a fan of this. I would rather my vehicle get 50mpg than 15mpg...but this isn't gonna ruin my life. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 4:29:24 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think people see the big picture with fuel economy. Higher requirements force innovation to focus on compliance, which with these regs ends up being a reduction on reliance of oil. Even with US oil production increasing, moving towards a sustainable energy source (hydro is huge in the NW) insulates us from a global commodity. The goal of enviro nazis is regulate cars off the roads and "force" people into mass transit. Since it's an unpopular goal and un obtainable thru legislation they get it thru regulation via the EPA and the NTSA |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 4:32:02 AM EST
[#50]
10 MPG muscle cars and gas for .85c per gallon!
Just like the good 'ol days! MAGA! 
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