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Posted: 3/30/2018 8:54:20 AM EDT
[#1]
The standards are not realistic, and not meant to be. They were there to mandate electric shit box cars for everyone.....that isn't rich enough to own something else.
 Anyone remember early 90's Geo Metros? Three cylinder manual transmission. ...... over 55mpg. I know this for a fact because I drove one as a company car working for a dealership. It was a great little commuter. Was actually kind of fun to drive. I also drove a convertible version for a while. Where'd they go??? Safety demands and all the other mandated equipment, and poof...., no more 55mpg $8,999 car. 
There are still a few running around my small town. It's amazing they still run. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 8:54:55 AM EDT
[#2]
I wish they'd unfuck it so diesels would be a thing again for smaller vehicles. Something like a Chevy Volt with a diesel generator for range extension would be the bees knees. My 2014 TDI Jetta manual was a nice car.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 8:56:21 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The standards are not realistic, and not meant to be. They were there to mandate electric shit box cars for everyone.....that isn't rich enough to own something else. Anyone remember early 90's Geo Metros? Three cylinder manual transmission. ...... over 55mpg. I know this for a fact because I drove one as a company car working for a dealership. It was a great little commuter. Was actually kind of fun to drive. I also drove a convertible version for a while. Where'd they go??? Safety demands and all the other mandated equipment, and poof...., no more 55mpg $8,999 car. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:01:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People don't remember how good the fuel economy actually was around that time for some of the smaller vehicles because they didn't start getting porked up with weight and other EPA bullshit.  I drove it 60 miles every day round trip. Just a fun little car with that manual transmisssion. 
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:02:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good. The 10 speed transmissions and stop-start shit was getting ridiculous. The numbers mandated were not realistic. It was FBHO's way of jamming electric vehicles up our collective asses to kill fossil fuels, since they knew the numbers weren't achievable. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:02:48 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I can buy a 3 gallon flush toilets at Lowe's I'll be happy again.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:04:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
The standards are not realistic, and not meant to be. They were there to mandate electric shit box cars for everyone.....that isn't rich enough to own something else. Anyone remember early 90's Geo Metros? Three cylinder manual transmission. ...... over 55mpg. I know this for a fact because I drove one as a company car working for a dealership. It was a great little commuter. Was actually kind of fun to drive. I also drove a convertible version for a while. Where'd they go??? Safety demands and all the other mandated equipment, and poof...., no more 55mpg $8,999 car.
There are still a few running around my small town. It's amazing they still run. Quoted:
People don't remember how good the fuel economy actually was around that time for some of the smaller vehicles because they didn't start getting porked up with weight and other EPA bullshit. Part of my hate for electric cars is because of the government's war for them. Diesel and lightweight cars have been sacrificed at the altar of the electric car. The federal government and state and local governments have taken millions of taxpayer dollars to prop it up... and it's still not where they want it. IC engine master race. Electric cars have a purpose, but they will never be the nationwide panacea they are sold as. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:19:41 AM EDT
[#8]
i hope they eradicate this DEF bullshit
#MakeDieselGreatAgain |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:21:39 AM EDT
[#9]
It has really fucked motorcycles too. CA has pretty much determined standards for the rest of the country, with some minor exceptions, and CA and the EU have closely followed one another.
EURO4 regs are already extremely tight for bikes, EURO5 (due in 2020) is fucking insane when you read the specs. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:31:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i hope they eradicate this DEF bullshit #MakeDieselGreatAgain 
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:45:39 AM EDT
[#11]
Diesels are great motors, and I miss my TD car back in Europe, but I will say PM2.5 is no fucking joke, and controlling it in urban areas is pretty important for a host of respiratory health problems.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:46:18 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? It s a win for putting the government back in its box. Also, higher fuel mileage isn't free. It requires lighter cars, which are inherently less safe, and more expensive to build. Since you aren't buying my fuel, how about you let ME decide what I want to drive? how's that for you? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:50:51 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also, higher fuel mileage isn't free. It requires lighter cars, which are inherently less safe, and more expensive to build. Since you aren't buying my fuel, how about you let ME decide what I want to drive? how's that for you? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:51:32 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think people see the big picture with fuel economy. Higher requirements force innovation to focus on compliance, which with these regs ends up being a reduction on reliance of oil. Even with US oil production increasing, moving towards a sustainable energy source (hydro is huge in the NW) insulates us from a global commodity. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:56:44 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? Win Win! |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:58:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you really believe that every other non-hydrocarbon energy source is tinker-toy bullshit? That's a sad viewpoint if true. They are, in fact, "tinker-toy bullshit". Mathematically provable, if one simply looks at energy cost invested, including transportation and the energy to make the concrete, verses the energy harvested over the operating life of the system. In the case of wind, by the time a wind generator gets to the break-even point in terms of energy, it is worn out. You can get a partial return over the next 10 - 15 year lifespan, if yoyu rebuild it and re-use the existing mounting and blades, but you are still looking at being net negative for 10 - 15 years. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:00:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cool beans homie. You do you. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:01:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's fine, but I somehow don't believe the cost of cars is going to drop 20%. Because of the CAFE standards they have to limit the supply of low mileage cars to keep the fleet average up. Limited supply + demand = higher prices. This is why truck prices have gotten so ridiculous the last few years. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:01:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want an all mechanical diesel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd love to run a diesel again if they'd ditch the cow piss and exhaust filter |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:02:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: how is this going to mend fences? last I checked consumers liked more fuel efficient cars so they don't have to spend as much on gas. and not for nothing you honestly think rolling back efficiency rules is going to mend fences for all the broken promises? dream the fuck on. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:03:01 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish they'd unfuck it so diesels would be a thing again for smaller vehicles. Something like a Chevy Volt with a diesel generator for range extension would be the bees knees. My 2014 TDI Jetta manual was a nice car. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:04:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The technology required to do this is already here. You can buy many vehicles that exceed that target, and you have been able to for years. My coworker gets over 200 MPG with a plug in hybrid. You can't tell me a plug in hybrid SUV couldn't manage 55 MPG for the average commute. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:05:18 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:07:31 AM EDT
[#24]
MAGA. Let the market decide what people want.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:10:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:14:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? The below article is old but does a good job explaining some of the problems caused by CAFE standards. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/ various reports have claimed that compliance with CAFE 2025 standards could add as much as $15,000 to the coat of a full size pickup the Ranger happens to fall into the “dead zone” of the CAFE footprint formula. Both curve graphs show a flat line at 55 square feet; in practical terms, a Mercedes-Benz S-Class carries this footprint. The Ranger, even in SuperCab configuration, has a footprint of 50 square feet, just short of the magic number. The best Ranger, fuel economy-wise, was a 4-cylinder manual truck, returning 22/27 mpg IRL; a respectable number, but one only available in a configuration that a minority of buyers would opt for. Equipped with a V6 and an automatic transmission, it would only return 14/18 mpg IRL, a figure that can be equalled by certain version of Ford’s V6 and V8 F-150 full-size pickups. By 2025, a theoretical Ranger with a footprint of 50 square feet would have to achieve fuel economy somewhere approaching 50 mpg CAFE. The 75 square foot F-150 would only have to reach in the high 30s CAFE. Ford will offer a new Ranger in world markets, but again, it won’t come here. GM, on the other hand, plans to offer their new mid-size Colorado and Canyon trucks here, but the reasons for Ford and GM’s divergence aren’t as cut and dried as they are in the case of Mazda and Volvo. Ford has decided to offer full-size trucks exclusively, with the V6 options as a means of attracting economy-minded buyers, and perhaps taking advantage of CAFE regulations (not to mention, sell more F-Series, which are immensely profitable). |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:17:25 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That actually describes our belief differences. I believe there is a balance between regulation and the market. Where that balance lies is the true question. In this case, where the regulations end up going will determine the balance. Absence of regulation, and to an extent the law, is anarchy. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:19:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good!! CAFE standards kill people and make cars much more expensive. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:21:30 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Leisure_Shoot But an American Standard Champion 4 and never complain about a toilet again. Keep small animals and children away from them though....They have an awesome flush |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:23:28 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The technology required to do this is already here. You can buy many vehicles that exceed that target, and you have been able to for years. My coworker gets over 200 MPG with a plug in hybrid. You can't tell me a plug in hybrid SUV couldn't manage 55 MPG for the average commute. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:23:42 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is one hundred percent fact. Were it not for government mandates and subsidies, wind, solar, etc. would not be economically feasible. They are, in fact, "tinker-toy bullshit". Mathematically provable, if one simply looks at energy cost invested, including transportation and the energy to make the concrete, verses the energy harvested over the operating life of the system. In the case of wind, by the time a wind generator gets to the break-even point in terms of energy, it is worn out. You can get a partial return over the next 10 - 15 year lifespan, if yoyu rebuild it and re-use the existing mounting and blades, but you are still looking at being net negative for 10 - 15 years. Electric cars have been failing since the late 1800s. They don't provide what most people want. Hydrogen fuel cells might kill them, if we're talking about alternative fuels replacing gasoline. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:26:39 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a fan of this. I would rather my vehicle get 50mpg than 15mpg...but this isn't gonna ruin my life. Vote with you dollars, not with mine. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:36:45 AM EDT
[#33]
Good
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:36:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: one thing to add to that is that efficiency is going to increase notably in the near future, Cam-less, after decades, is finally on the horizon, and some auto makes like Mazda are moving to compression ignition Gasoline engine technology. Whatis the problem with cams? Is it that they don't change to fit the current engine conditions? Or is it the friction caused by the cams? Or all of the above? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:38:36 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Curious.. what are the negatives for consumers for higher gas milage standards? How is this a win for us? Simply put, Toyota has to make a big profit off every Tundra sold to offset the loss on every Prius. Honestly I have no idea if Toyota makes money on Prius or not, just using them as an example. That said, I don't know how much of an impact this will have for consumers. It is 2018, 2025 being only 7 years away puts it in the lifecycle of automotive manufacturing. Designs for cars to be made then are already far along in design, prototypes are in testing, manufacturing tooling is being engineered and ordered. Plus if the largest automotive market in the US (California) is going to stay the course on those regulations, I doubt the manufacturers will change direction. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:39:56 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a fan of this. I would rather my vehicle get 50mpg than 15mpg...but this isn't gonna ruin my life. Same here. My SUV gets 15.6mpg average and that's fine with me. It would be nice to get 50mpg but I don't want to drive a glorified go-kart. There's no substitution for big V-8 power and 4x4. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:41:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll have to disagree. I think we need to keep pushing manufacturers to develop more and more fuel efficient cars. Gas prices will just keep going up, and it will affect economic growth in the future. It will also affect national security as the world oil supply diminishes and we need fuel for military use. There is no doubt that we need to find an alternate source of energy for the future. But the market takes care of those things. There is nothing wrong with the government offering incentives to companies to help get through technological breakthroughs that are needed for better electric cars. There is no doubt they will be better all the way around, but it is also terrible to force the issue before the market and technology is ready. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:42:23 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think most gas engines are in the 20-30% efficient range. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So I have a technical question. Most of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is converted to heat. A smaller amount is converted to movement. As engines have become more efficient, they convert more fuel into movement than heat. Hence the reason we have vehicles now with stainless exhaust systems. The cooler temps mean the burned gasses condense in the pipes and if the pipes weren't stainless, they would rust out in short order. So my question, I know it's not possible for a gasoline engine to burn 100% efficient BUT for the sake of a brain storming session, if it COULD happen, what do you think is the max mpg that a gallon of gas is capable of giving? We have to make some assumptions on vehicle weight so let's use a compact car like a Toyota Corolla as the test vehicle for this theoretical 100% efficient engine. Thanks Or is there more to it than that? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:45:28 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you have a choice between a gas guzzler and a sipper, you'll take the sipper if that's what you're after. The automakers will respond to market demand if economy is a higher priority. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:49:50 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone remember early 90's Geo Metros? Three cylinder manual transmission. ...... over 55mpg. I know this for a fact because I drove one as a company car working for a dealership. It was a great little commuter. Was actually kind of fun to drive. I also drove a convertible version for a while. Where'd they go??? Safety demands and all the other mandated equipment, and poof...., no more 55mpg $8,999 car.
There are still a few running around my small town. It's amazing they still run. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:54:03 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your point was that it's impossible. It clearly is possible with current technology, just not widely adopted (yet). Tesla is already working on semi trucks that are electrified. Your own tastes and preferences don't matter, the efficient market will dictate the direction this goes. And my guess is the market will decide ICE are ancient technology. Of course you will still be able to drive whatever the heck you want, but as the alternatives become more advanced, cheaper, and capable as the technology matures my bet is even the naysayers will get on board. If you could drive the same vehicle you drive right now, or one that looks exactly the same but cost the same or less and gets 55mpg +, has more power and reliability, would you still choose the ICE? I bet most would switch. Oh, and your coworker getting '200mpg"... 
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Posted: 3/30/2018 10:56:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Anyone that's interested in the numbers behind wind turbines can look here:
https://www.windpowerengineering.com/projects/windpower-profitability-and-break-even-point-calculations/ It's a little bit muddling, but the guy shows his working and he figures out that for a lifespan of 20 years they break even at 24, and have only a modest ROI. I'm a big fan of looking at alternative energy, but they're nowhere near there yet, and they're massively subsidised. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:00:00 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell me more about camless technology, and gasoline compression engines. Both of those sound interesting. Whatis the problem with cams? Is it that they don't change to fit the current engine conditions? Or is it the friction caused by the cams? Or all of the above? Cams can really only be matched up to a certain RPM and throttle range. Variable valve timing can expand this range, and freevalves can do all sorts of crazy things, as well as time the opening and closing perfectly for every RPM and throttle range. The torque curve of a freevalve engine would essentially look like a flat line. You can also do things like continuously variable cylinder deactivation. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:00:50 AM EDT
[#44]
Do you want a Ford F150 with a one liter turbo charged engine? Because insane mpg regulations means you will get a Ford 150 with a one liter turbo charged engine.
I've spotted a few people complaining about this in this thread who were also complaining in others about how complex engines were getting. You can't have your 55mpg standards and your old school carbureted v8 too. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:23:20 AM EDT
[#45]
The container ships operating on the oceans put out hundreds of times more pollution every year than every car on the planet. That is not an exaggeration.
Auto emissions are a drop in the bucket when you look at all emission sources. The only places they might have any effect is locally in certain cities like LA. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:29:04 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The container ships operating on the oceans put out hundreds of times more pollution every year than every car on the planet. That is not an exaggeration. Auto emissions are a drop in the bucket when you look at all emission sources. The only places they might have any effect is locally in certain cities like LA. That said limiting CA's choices with more expensive cars will only destroy the state faster and continue the fleeing of the middle class. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:30:34 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More MAGA. I'm now more sure than ever that Trump is trying to mend fences with his base after the Bump Stock and Omnibus debacles. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:36:04 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The container ships operating on the oceans put out hundreds of times more pollution every year than every car on the planet. That is not an exaggeration. Auto emissions are a drop in the bucket when you look at all emission sources. The only places they might have any effect is locally in certain cities like LA. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:40:07 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hell yeah, that was my dream car in high school. Had a festiva instead which "only" got mid 30's, driving like a maniac. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Anyone remember early 90's Geo Metros? Three cylinder manual transmission. ...... over 55mpg. I know this for a fact because I drove one as a company car working for a dealership. It was a great little commuter. Was actually kind of fun to drive. I also drove a convertible version for a while. Where'd they go??? Safety demands and all the other mandated equipment, and poof...., no more 55mpg $8,999 car.
There are still a few running around my small town. It's amazing they still run. I drove a poverty spec model of the Metro as a delivery car for a short period of time. At the time my daily driver was a lifted 115hp Toyota 4x4. They are not fast trucks by any stretch of the imagination but It felt like a rocketship compared to the Metro. I also owned a few aircooled VW bugs so I have a lot of slow car experience. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:40:25 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Won't work. We need pro-gun legislation not this useless crap that honestly I don't really care about. |
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