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Posted: 5/17/2019 7:44:25 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sure someone here can answer that question. A lot of things on aircraft are not automatic. You don't always want things happening on their own when you're thousands of feet off the ground.  |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 7:51:25 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
....I can not imagine an impact that doesnt completely rupture the tanks. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 7:56:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dont you consider the JFS very similiar to an APU? It is a starter only. It turns the ADG which spools up the motor and associated pumps, generators. It runs for only a 3 mins or so at startup. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 8:15:51 AM EDT
[#4]
JFS is just a hydraulic start system. Does nothing but spin motor up to a speed where it can be lit. Two 800cuin accumulators iirr and a manifold with two start solenoid valves and a Hyd motor on csd/ gearbox.
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Posted: 5/17/2019 8:35:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love the engineers at Martin-Baker. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 9:09:35 AM EDT
[#6]
I can't help but think that going through a wearhouse roof was probably very similar to a stunt man doing a fall into cardboard boxes to break the fall. The type of building struck probably helped save the day, along with going in from the topside.
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Posted: 5/17/2019 9:42:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MFSO is safety wired open. Could have run out of gas, T-Birds did it last year. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Fuel starvation in a -16 is very low probability. The engine will still siphon fuel with all pumps off. It is possible to shut off fuel flow, but to do so accidentally is also very unlikely. edit- I see you probably meant running out of fuel. Always a possibility, but unlikely unless he had both a fuel quantity indication discrepancy and was also not paying attention to time in flight. Again unlikely. Military pilots rarely run out fuel in peacetime. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 9:48:59 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is reported that the pilot declared an emergency. It is reported that he had ordinance on board that he did not jettison. So I think there is a good chance he had air ro air ordinance not air to ground ordinance, got very low on fuel, tried to get to high key and didnt and flamed out over the base and punched out and the jet without the engine running and with no fuel impacted the building with the EPU running. impact causing a hydrozine leak my best guess that fits what little we know so far. While it does have self sealing fuel tanks I can not imagine an impact that doesnt completely rupture the tanks. Asking a stupid question question here. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 9:50:22 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That happened in 2016. It was Obama’s fault. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Fuel starvation in a -16 is very low probability. The engine will still siphon fuel with all pumps off. It is possible to shut off fuel flow, but to do so accidentally is also very unlikely. edit- I see you probably meant running out of fuel. Always a possibility, but unlikely unless he had both a fuel quantity indication discrepancy and was also not paying attention to time in flight. Again unlikely. Military pilots rarely run out fuel in peacetime. I disliked FBHO like most here but a jet running out of gas and falling out of the sky is solely the responsibility of the pilot. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 9:56:46 AM EDT
[#10]
I've been out of the AF for a while, but I assume the presence of hydrazine is still an issue? I know we had specific cordon requirements for A/C crashes involving F-16's.
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Posted: 5/17/2019 9:57:24 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been out of the AF for a while, but I assume the presence of hydrazine is still an issue? I know we had specific cordon requirements for A/C crashes involving F-16's. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 10:04:27 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am old and years run together. O was not at fault. It was the pilot’s fault and the T-Bird the show must go on hubris lead to it running out of gas. Any other pilot would have taken the jet home and not run out of gas. I disliked FBHO like most here but a jet running out of gas and falling out of the sky is solely the responsibility of the pilot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Fuel starvation in a -16 is very low probability. The engine will still siphon fuel with all pumps off. It is possible to shut off fuel flow, but to do so accidentally is also very unlikely. edit- I see you probably meant running out of fuel. Always a possibility, but unlikely unless he had both a fuel quantity indication discrepancy and was also not paying attention to time in flight. Again unlikely. Military pilots rarely run out fuel in peacetime. I disliked FBHO like most here but a jet running out of gas and falling out of the sky is solely the responsibility of the pilot. 
Were you ever at Eielson? |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 10:58:55 AM EDT
[#13]
Of course we want to see more photos but I'm pretty sure that access to the warehouse for photographic purposes is currently HIGHLY restricted. That warehouse is now certainly a secure area by any reasonable definition.
We'll just have to wait for authorized photographs to be made when the site is made safe enough. Which could be a while. Hydrazine kind of makes your skin melt and fall off and they're going to have to do something about the munitions the aircraft was carrying. I would not have any idea what the recovery and EOD disposal protocols are for weapons on an armed aircraft that crashes through a warehouse at relatively low speeds and is thus presumed to be generally intact. That one photo indicated a normal belly down attitude which implies that if it's carrying bombs, there's a plane on top of them. Munitions disposal will be interesting. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 11:40:05 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course we want to see more photos but I'm pretty sure that access to the warehouse for photographic purposes is currently HIGHLY restricted. That warehouse is now certainly a secure area by any reasonable definition. We'll just have to wait for authorized photographs to be made when the site is made safe enough. Which could be a while. Hydrazine kind of makes your skin melt and fall off and they're going to have to do something about the munitions the aircraft was carrying. I would not have any idea what the recovery and EOD disposal protocols are for weapons on an armed aircraft that crashes through a warehouse at relatively low speeds and is thus presumed to be generally intact. That one photo indicated a normal belly down attitude which implies that if it's carrying bombs, there's a plane on top of them. Munitions disposal will be interesting. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 11:53:14 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is nothing foreign to the EOD/Fuel guys. He was most assuridly not carrying bombs. If this was an Alert training mission, he most likely had two AIM-120's and two AIM-9's. Standard loadout is 3x1 for A2A 3x120 1x9x (these days) A “training” load would be 2x1 using CATMs and maybe an ACMI on the open missile station (sta 2 or 8) |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 11:54:08 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I fully agree. That was me fishing to see if you had heard the same rumor.
Were you ever at Eielson? |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 12:13:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JFS is just a hydraulic start system. Does nothing but spin motor up to a speed where it can be lit. Two 800cuin accumulators iirr and a manifold with two start solenoid valves and a Hyd motor on csd/ gearbox. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 12:25:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Inside and outside videos on Ebaums
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Posted: 5/17/2019 1:05:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is NAOC not NEACP. I work closely with the mission. The plane that sat on the March AFB flight line when President Reagan was visiting his ranch was called the NEACP. The mission and name changed in the late 80’s, after the time referenced by the post. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 1:29:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The mission you work closely with today is called NAOC. The plane that sat on the March AFB flight line when President Reagan was visiting his ranch was called the NEACP. The mission and name changed in the late 80’s, after the time referenced by the post. E4B I hate the damn thing. Just saying. It has ruined many of my weekends and holidays over the years. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 1:50:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JFS is just a hydraulic start system. Does nothing but spin motor up to a speed where it can be lit. Two 800cuin accumulators iirr and a manifold with two start solenoid valves and a Hyd motor on csd/ gearbox. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 2:31:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. I hate the cold. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I fully agree. That was me fishing to see if you had heard the same rumor.
Were you ever at Eielson?
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Posted: 5/17/2019 3:13:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: it also provides electrical power for start The jfs is started by the two hydraulic acummulators and the battery juice. The accumulators recharge off the aircraft hydraulic system or your ass pumps them up by hand if it hangs. Gawd I miss being a wrench. 
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Posted: 5/17/2019 3:42:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since he crashed into 'SEE Water" Thay can call him "Skipper" Or "Splash". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does the pilot get a new call sign? SS Minnow Holy Diver (roof) Buster |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 3:53:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, the JFS turns the ADG which then turns the main and standby gen which provides juice to start the motor. The jfs is started by the two hydraulic acummulators and the battery juice. The accumulators recharge off the aircraft hydraulic system or your ass pumps them up by hand if it hangs. Gawd I miss being a wrench. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: it also provides electrical power for start The jfs is started by the two hydraulic acummulators and the battery juice. The accumulators recharge off the aircraft hydraulic system or your ass pumps them up by hand if it hangs. Gawd I miss being a wrench. Normal start sequence is #2 starting first JFS->CGB->right AMAD/IDG->finger lift extends pawl/PTO shaft turns->PTO turn gearbox (which in turns spins the N2 compressor and engine accessories). The engine supplies its own electrical power from the gearbox mounted PMG and is independent from the aircraft (exception, EDU gets power from aircraft so it can still record data if the engine dies). |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 4:39:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Warehouse worker says the F-16 engine was still running in the warehouse.
 Area Around Warehouse F-16 Fighter Jet Crashed Into Remains Shut Down |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 4:47:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know this is a -16 thread but Mach was a -15 driver. Normal start sequence is #2 starting first JFS->CGB->right AMAD/IDG->finger lift extends pawl/PTO shaft turns->PTO turn gearbox (which in turns spins the N2 compressor and engine accessories). The engine supplies its own electrical power from the gearbox mounted PMG and is independent from the aircraft (exception, EDU gets power from aircraft so it can still record data if the engine dies). You obviously are more in tune than me, I have not crewed in 20 years, I am on the flight line often but my wrenching days are long gone. |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 4:49:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Warehouse worker says the F-16 engine was still running in the warehouse.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1i8krJQlJM |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 11:49:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Today the ordnance from the aircraft was removed and detonated in a nearby field.
Video here: https://abc7news.com/5306123/ |
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Posted: 5/17/2019 11:59:48 PM EDT
[#30]
 Raw: Possible ordnance on F-16 fighter jet to be detonated near Riverside County crash site | ABC7 |
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Posted: 5/18/2019 11:58:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No way, most likely it was the EPU. Had the engine been running things would have blowing around. They weren't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Warehouse worker says the F-16 engine was still running in the warehouse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1i8krJQlJMeven at idle it would have sucked up and spit out everything in that room |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 11:39:15 AM EDT
[#32]
 Aviation UPDATE F-16C Crash March AFB, Riverside, Ca. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 11:58:39 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was wrong on the engine power. I thought on start it pulled from the main until it spooled up. I stand corrected. You obviously are more in tune than me, I have not crewed in 20 years, I am on the flight line often but my wrenching days are long gone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I know this is a -16 thread but Mach was a -15 driver. Normal start sequence is #2 starting first JFS->CGB->right AMAD/IDG->finger lift extends pawl/PTO shaft turns->PTO turn gearbox (which in turns spins the N2 compressor and engine accessories). The engine supplies its own electrical power from the gearbox mounted PMG and is independent from the aircraft (exception, EDU gets power from aircraft so it can still record data if the engine dies). You obviously are more in tune than me, I have not crewed in 20 years, I am on the flight line often but my wrenching days are long gone. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 12:07:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty sure the aircraft gets power only from the battery until the engine stabilizes. The JFS doesn't turn the generators fast enough to hit the constant speed. I may be mistaken and the standby may supply power to the ignition system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I know this is a -16 thread but Mach was a -15 driver. Normal start sequence is #2 starting first JFS->CGB->right AMAD/IDG->finger lift extends pawl/PTO shaft turns->PTO turn gearbox (which in turns spins the N2 compressor and engine accessories). The engine supplies its own electrical power from the gearbox mounted PMG and is independent from the aircraft (exception, EDU gets power from aircraft so it can still record data if the engine dies). You obviously are more in tune than me, I have not crewed in 20 years, I am on the flight line often but my wrenching days are long gone. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 12:12:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the F-15 has a generator attached to the JFS to supply power during engine start. IIRC. It does not have a battery. I dont know about the F-16 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I know this is a -16 thread but Mach was a -15 driver. Normal start sequence is #2 starting first JFS->CGB->right AMAD/IDG->finger lift extends pawl/PTO shaft turns->PTO turn gearbox (which in turns spins the N2 compressor and engine accessories). The engine supplies its own electrical power from the gearbox mounted PMG and is independent from the aircraft (exception, EDU gets power from aircraft so it can still record data if the engine dies). You obviously are more in tune than me, I have not crewed in 20 years, I am on the flight line often but my wrenching days are long gone.
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Posted: 5/21/2019 12:33:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Possible. Also possible is all the electronic equipment and wiring. There is plenty of h/v and l/v power contained in the cockpit. I am unsure in the f-16. But some aircraft have batteries in the nose area. Most of the crashes I have been around the jet doesn't burst into flames. If the reports are hydraulic failure, I'd go with that. Even with no thrust there is usually enough energy to make an emergency landing. We had a jet at Spang that lost a MLG hydraulic line resulting in total loss of pressure. The EPU does activate automatically on main and standby generator failure because of criticality of flight computers but that won't help if you don't have any hydraulic fluid to pump. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 7:44:28 PM EDT
[#37]
 Video captures F-16 pilot ejecting moments before jet crashes near March Air Reserve Base | ABC7 |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 7:51:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No rockets left in the cockpit once the seat and canopy are gone. Batteries for F-16s are in the MLG wells. Most of the crashes I have been around the jet doesn't burst into flames. If the reports are hydraulic failure, I'd go with that. Even with no thrust there is usually enough energy to make an emergency landing. We had a jet at Spang that lost a MLG hydraulic line resulting in total loss of pressure. The EPU does activate automatically on main and standby generator failure because of criticality of flight computers but that won't help if you don't have any hydraulic fluid to pump. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Possible. Also possible is all the electronic equipment and wiring. There is plenty of h/v and l/v power contained in the cockpit. I am unsure in the f-16. But some aircraft have batteries in the nose area. Most of the crashes I have been around the jet doesn't burst into flames. If the reports are hydraulic failure, I'd go with that. Even with no thrust there is usually enough energy to make an emergency landing. We had a jet at Spang that lost a MLG hydraulic line resulting in total loss of pressure. The EPU does activate automatically on main and standby generator failure because of criticality of flight computers but that won't help if you don't have any hydraulic fluid to pump. 
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Posted: 5/21/2019 7:53:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryThese things happen. 
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Posted: 5/21/2019 8:25:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His ejection pulled the nose up and sent the plane flying off without him instead of lawn darting. These things happen. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 8:59:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Tag.
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Posted: 5/21/2019 9:05:56 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote History |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 9:13:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His ejection pulled the nose up and sent the plane flying off without him instead of lawn darting. These things happen.  Wiki has an article on it. The pilot ejected for good reason. The plane had gotten into a spin that is considered unrecoverable in an F-106. But when he ejected, that changed the balance of the plane enough that it self-recovered from the spin. The plane made a gentle landing in a corn field. The plane was recovered, repaired, and returned to service. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 9:15:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ever heard of the Cornfield Bomber? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/F-106_unmanned_landing.jpg/450px-F-106_unmanned_landing.jpg Wiki has an article on it. The pilot ejected for good reason. The plane made a gentle landing in a corn field. The plane was recovered, repaired, and returned to service. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 9:20:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ever heard of the Cornfield Bomber? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/F-106_unmanned_landing.jpg/450px-F-106_unmanned_landing.jpg Wiki has an article on it. The pilot ejected for good reason. The plane had gotten into a spin that is considered unrecoverable in an F-106. But when he ejected, that changed the balance of the plane enough that it self-recovered from the spin. The plane made a gentle landing in a corn field. The plane was recovered, repaired, and returned to service. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: His ejection pulled the nose up and sent the plane flying off without him instead of lawn darting. These things happen. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/F-106_unmanned_landing.jpg/450px-F-106_unmanned_landing.jpg Wiki has an article on it. The pilot ejected for good reason. The plane had gotten into a spin that is considered unrecoverable in an F-106. But when he ejected, that changed the balance of the plane enough that it self-recovered from the spin. The plane made a gentle landing in a corn field. The plane was recovered, repaired, and returned to service. HAHA What a feeling that has to be... Get out to save yourself from certain death to see the plane flip you off and fly away.
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Posted: 5/21/2019 10:29:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh yes. "you'd better climb back it it!" HAHA What a feeling that has to be... Get out to save yourself from certain death to see the plane flip you off and fly away. If aircraft was destroyed after ejection- After a kangaroo investigation panel, the pilot made the right decision to eject, and maintenance will be found at fault. If the aircraft was recoverable & economically repairable after the ejection- After a kangaroo investigation panel, the pilot will be disciplined, but maintenance will be found at fault. |
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Posted: 5/21/2019 10:31:14 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His ejection pulled the nose up and sent the plane flying off without him instead of lawn darting. These things happen.
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Posted: 5/22/2019 11:32:03 PM EDT
[#48]
 F-16 pilot ejects from a plane on 05/16/2019 |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 11:13:36 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: JFS stand for jet fuel starter. You are correct that the accumulator provides hydraulic power to start the JFS. But the JFS is a turbine engine (Honeywell JFS 190). On F-18s, we pumped up the accumulator to start the APU, then used that to start the engines. Or does the USAF just call them something different? |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 11:23:35 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is that different from an APU? On F-18s, we pumped up the accumulator to start the APU, then used that to start the engines. Or does the USAF just call them something different? A JFS is really just a starter on roids. |
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