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Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:35:53 PM EST
[#1]
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That is why I asked you to clarify earlier. This thread is crazy.
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THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.  
That is why I asked you to clarify earlier. This thread is crazy.
It has been in the first post since the thread was started though, and the entire 60 minutes segment is based on the lawsuit.

These lawsuits are quite different than the other class action lawsuits across the country in that it is going after the FDA, rather than just trying to get a payout from big Pharma.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:36:46 PM EST
[#2]
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Your point?

Better to have them off themselves sooner because the pain is unbearable?

Here's an idea. People take what they want to take or what their doctor (who should not have to worry about the government playing nanny) advises them to take.

Everyone can make believe they're an adult and do what they want with their own body and not worry about what some other adult does with their own body.

A novel concept, I know. Personal responsibility, liberty, and freedom.
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Thats fine, but i dont want someone with 5 whole hours of pain management training prescribing my 10 year old opiotes for a broken bone.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:36:51 PM EST
[#3]
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So your wife had a patient who was in tears because they were addicted then.  Glad to see that person got the help they needed with their addiction...
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Or make legit street addicts out of them. Every person and I do mean every person I know that had opiate scrips have been cut cold turkey.  We are talking about people with some real pain issues and OTC and Phys Rehab ain't going to help.

My wife had a post op patient  in her office in tears because they refused to refill a script and cut her cold turkey from Percocet and she had been in withdrawals from opiates for 4 days before her office and the pharmacy got squared away.
So your wife had a patient who was in tears because they were addicted then.  Glad to see that person got the help they needed with their addiction...
Educate yourself.  this individual was on long term opiates yes, She also had within the prior 20 days had a multi level cervical fusion.

You are also missing the entire point, the patent and doc determine what is needed not the pharmacy tech.  You also don't cold turkey people and instead are supposed to draw up a taper schedule if you want to get someone off opiates without turning them into a street junkie.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:38:26 PM EST
[#4]
Doctors: we have this drug but it is really addictive and we are going to control its use. People will need to have to learn to deal some pain.

People: DOCTORS HAVE DRUGS TO STOP ALL PAIN. LET'S HELP UNTIL WE GET THEM.

Government: Doctors are keeping the good medication from the people. People have a right to those medications. We will write into the patients bill of rights that anyone who says they are in pain needs to be believed.

Doctors: This is dumb.

Government: Lawsuits are a thing.

People: I am in 11 out of 10 pain despite playing video games and walking around and smoking without a problem.

Doctors: Not going to prescribe this.

Government: Lawsuits in 3... 2...

Doctors: Fine. But this is on the politicians.

*A few years later*

Government: OMG! Doctors are making everyone addicts!

And thus you have the "opioid addiction crisis".
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:39:03 PM EST
[#5]
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It has been in the first post since the thread was started though, and the entire 60 minutes segment is based on the lawsuit.
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I get it
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:39:45 PM EST
[#6]
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Educate yourself.  this individual was on long term opiates yes, She also had within the prior 20 days had a multi level cervical fusion.
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Or make legit street addicts out of them. Every person and I do mean every person I know that had opiate scrips have been cut cold turkey.  We are talking about people with some real pain issues and OTC and Phys Rehab ain't going to help.

My wife had a post op patient  in her office in tears because they refused to refill a script and cut her cold turkey from Percocet and she had been in withdrawals from opiates for 4 days before her office and the pharmacy got squared away.
So your wife had a patient who was in tears because they were addicted then.  Glad to see that person got the help they needed with their addiction...
Educate yourself.  this individual was on long term opiates yes, She also had within the prior 20 days had a multi level cervical fusion.
Is your wife a Dr.?  Or even a nurse?  I already know the answer.  Or in other words, your post is, quite frankly, irrelevant.  At best, you are being disingenuous.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:43:38 PM EST
[#7]
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Really? According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) Center for Behavioral Health Statistics and Quality, National Surveys on Drug Use and Health (NSDUHs) between 2002 and 2014 all substances abuse rates were trending downward or remained fairly unchanged.
https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_2790/images/image_file_2760_BlockImageOne_1580327694.png

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Riddle me this, how is it tens of millions of people annually are prescribed opioids and never become addicted? If opioids are so addicting how come everyone who uses opioids doesn't become addicted to them? Myself, my wife, and countless other people I know used opioids after surgery and, shockingly, not a single one of us became addicts.

And guess what? If you run the data you will more than likely find those addicts simply transitioned from heroin to something else, be it other illicit drugs, alcohol, etc.
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The whole "opioid crisis" is another stupid left-wing manufactured propaganda piece foisted on the ill-informed and dimwitted by the Democrat Party. It's no different than them focusing on firearms instead of the underlying problem (bad people doing bad stuff). The underlying problem [in the "opioid crisis"] is addiction. If you eliminated all opioids today the addicts would just transition to something else (more than likely meth, cocaine, alcohol, etc.). People need to stop being so gullible and focusing on the inanimate "thing" and instead focus on the underlying behavior.
This is idiotic, the scale of the opioid issue is very real.  There are suddenly so many more addicts,
Really? According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) Center for Behavioral Health Statistics and Quality, National Surveys on Drug Use and Health (NSDUHs) between 2002 and 2014 all substances abuse rates were trending downward or remained fairly unchanged.
https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_2790/images/image_file_2760_BlockImageOne_1580327694.png

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largely because it's such addicting stuff compared to what losers typically got high on (shocker) and because our country is being doused with it like an insecticide along both legitimate and illegal channels to reach as much of society as possible.
Riddle me this, how is it tens of millions of people annually are prescribed opioids and never become addicted? If opioids are so addicting how come everyone who uses opioids doesn't become addicted to them? Myself, my wife, and countless other people I know used opioids after surgery and, shockingly, not a single one of us became addicts.

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We had a similar issue with heroin in years past, and it basically died out with its users under heavy cultural and law enforcement opposition (and disruption of overseas suppliers)
And guess what? If you run the data you will more than likely find those addicts simply transitioned from heroin to something else, be it other illicit drugs, alcohol, etc.
I call massive BS on the SAHMSA chart; homeless in Kali, pot legalization, trends on opiate, alkaloid, and MJ business all speak otherwise.

Tens of millions aren't losers or genetically predisposed to opiate addiction.  Many thousands don't even get meaningful pain relief vs. NSAIDs (like me) --that isn't evidence the drugs are ineffective at dulling pain.  Many thousands apparently are, though, and since they become unable to keep their addiction *their* problem, it becomes *my* problem.

An awful lot of the last crop of heroin addicts died from overdose, AIDS, hepatitis, or suicide (I include death by exposure while homeless in this set).  Others are probably still in prison.  A small percentage overcame addiction with outside intervention of various sorts.  A small percentage of those have not relapsed.

No one transitions from heroin to alcohol unless they were on a deserted island with only pirate rum.  As with crack, they find sucking dicks for drug money preferable to any other alternative, except maybe violent crime.  Those notion they will simoly make do with an alternative is laughable.  These guys OD on OTC diahrrea meds in an attempt to reduce the pain of withdrawal (no, the junkies don't all have slipped disks, lol)
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:44:47 PM EST
[#8]
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Who cares? If people want to get high they will get high. Why is it your job or anyone else's job to regulate what other's put in their bodies? Some so called conservatives sure sound a lot like liberals.
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It CAN be chewed, crushed, dissolved, and ground up.  The testing to reach that conclusion has been proven to be flawed.
Who cares? If people want to get high they will get high. Why is it your job or anyone else's job to regulate what other's put in their bodies? Some so called conservatives sure sound a lot like liberals.
Bingo! In my county I work with the opioid coordinator (yes, this is a position that our county government created in response to the "opioid crisis that is gripping the nation!"). In a recent presentation that this individual gave they had a graph showing the reduction in opioid prescription rates in our county, and were touting this as a huge success. I asked if they were tracking the rate of use other drugs, especially illicit drugs. Their answer, "um, not at this time." So I chimed in that our EMS agencies are reporting seeing spikes in patients using meth and other drugs, and if there might be a correlation. The coordinators response? "Um, we will look into that."
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:45:56 PM EST
[#9]
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Is your wife a Dr.?  Or even a nurse?  I already know the answer.  Or in other words, your post is, quite frankly, irrelevant.  At best, you are being disingenuous.
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Or make legit street addicts out of them. Every person and I do mean every person I know that had opiate scrips have been cut cold turkey.  We are talking about people with some real pain issues and OTC and Phys Rehab ain't going to help.

My wife had a post op patient  in her office in tears because they refused to refill a script and cut her cold turkey from Percocet and she had been in withdrawals from opiates for 4 days before her office and the pharmacy got squared away.
So your wife had a patient who was in tears because they were addicted then.  Glad to see that person got the help they needed with their addiction...
Educate yourself.  this individual was on long term opiates yes, She also had within the prior 20 days had a multi level cervical fusion.
Is your wife a Dr.?  Or even a nurse?  I already know the answer.  Or in other words, your post is, quite frankly, irrelevant.  At best, you are being disingenuous.
My wife manages a private practice neurosurgeon group and has for well over a decade. She talks, interacts with people in severe pain daily.  Her doc's take trauma call at a level 1 trauma hospital and are very good at what they do.  My wife see's it from a different perspective then you or I or even the doc's to say what she deals with o a daily basis doesn't count is the definition of retarded.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:46:52 PM EST
[#10]
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Get government out of medicine.
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And don’t believe the ad slogans or pharma claims parroted by the doctor.

Do your due dilegence & make your own choices.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:48:05 PM EST
[#11]
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It CAN be chewed, crushed, dissolved, and ground up.  The testing to reach that conclusion has been proven to be flawed.
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The deal with oxycontin, which was genuine, was that it makes abuse more difficult. It is a time-release oxycodone tablet made in such a way that it can't (at least not easily) be chewed, dissolved, ground up, et c. Doing those things releases the full dose immediately, which gives the buzz that abusers are after.
The deal was also it was being given away in massive quantities for everything “because it’s non-addicting” all over the country until fairly recently.  Turns out many folks (obviously) got enough of a taste for opioids from oxy that the reduced addictive quality was overwhelmed by the ease of access, and when it was denied were compelled to seek other compounds.
It CAN be chewed, crushed, dissolved, and ground up.  The testing to reach that conclusion has been proven to be flawed.
Yup.  Weren't there lawsuits and some pharma/FDA sleaziness uncovered after the fact as well?

"New growth area this year, shareholders; Opium.  People can't seem to get enough of it!  We will also be expanding our lobby outreach efforts."
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:50:37 PM EST
[#12]
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Thats fine, but i dont want someone with 5 whole hours of pain management training prescribing my 10 year old opiotes for a broken bone.
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Your point?

Better to have them off themselves sooner because the pain is unbearable?

Here's an idea. People take what they want to take or what their doctor (who should not have to worry about the government playing nanny) advises them to take.

Everyone can make believe they're an adult and do what they want with their own body and not worry about what some other adult does with their own body.

A novel concept, I know. Personal responsibility, liberty, and freedom.
Thats fine, but i dont want someone with 5 whole hours of pain management training prescribing my 10 year old opiotes for a broken bone.
I thought the point of Pain Management wasn't to manage pain, but to isolate doctors from malpractice claims when people inevitably become addicted, and to *try* to make it harder for patients to get duplicate/redundant scripts by centralizing their supply?
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:56:24 PM EST
[#13]
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Is your wife a Dr.?  Or even a nurse?  I already know the answer.  Or in other words, your post is, quite frankly, irrelevant.  At best, you are being disingenuous.
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Or make legit street addicts out of them. Every person and I do mean every person I know that had opiate scrips have been cut cold turkey.  We are talking about people with some real pain issues and OTC and Phys Rehab ain't going to help.

My wife had a post op patient  in her office in tears because they refused to refill a script and cut her cold turkey from Percocet and she had been in withdrawals from opiates for 4 days before her office and the pharmacy got squared away.
So your wife had a patient who was in tears because they were addicted then.  Glad to see that person got the help they needed with their addiction...
Educate yourself.  this individual was on long term opiates yes, She also had within the prior 20 days had a multi level cervical fusion.
Is your wife a Dr.?  Or even a nurse?  I already know the answer.  Or in other words, your post is, quite frankly, irrelevant.  At best, you are being disingenuous.
He was answering a snarky comment about "Oh, well at least she isn't an addict anymore" made with zero regard to why the person was on pain meds in the first place.

Who's being disingenuous?

It's very relevant. Look at the attitudes towards people's pain management in this thread. There are plenty who feel fine with telling other people they need to suck it up because...feels.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 4:58:06 PM EST
[#14]
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I call massive BS on the SAHMSA chart; homeless in Kali, pot legalization, trends on opiate, alkaloid, and MJ business all speak otherwise.
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The whole "opioid crisis" is another stupid left-wing manufactured propaganda piece foisted on the ill-informed and dimwitted by the Democrat Party. It's no different than them focusing on firearms instead of the underlying problem (bad people doing bad stuff). The underlying problem [in the "opioid crisis"] is addiction. If you eliminated all opioids today the addicts would just transition to something else (more than likely meth, cocaine, alcohol, etc.). People need to stop being so gullible and focusing on the inanimate "thing" and instead focus on the underlying behavior.
This is idiotic, the scale of the opioid issue is very real.  There are suddenly so many more addicts,
Really? According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) Center for Behavioral Health Statistics and Quality, National Surveys on Drug Use and Health (NSDUHs) between 2002 and 2014 all substances abuse rates were trending downward or remained fairly unchanged.
https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_2790/images/image_file_2760_BlockImageOne_1580327694.png

Source
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largely because it's such addicting stuff compared to what losers typically got high on (shocker) and because our country is being doused with it like an insecticide along both legitimate and illegal channels to reach as much of society as possible.
Riddle me this, how is it tens of millions of people annually are prescribed opioids and never become addicted? If opioids are so addicting how come everyone who uses opioids doesn't become addicted to them? Myself, my wife, and countless other people I know used opioids after surgery and, shockingly, not a single one of us became addicts.

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We had a similar issue with heroin in years past, and it basically died out with its users under heavy cultural and law enforcement opposition (and disruption of overseas suppliers)
And guess what? If you run the data you will more than likely find those addicts simply transitioned from heroin to something else, be it other illicit drugs, alcohol, etc.
I call massive BS on the SAHMSA chart; homeless in Kali, pot legalization, trends on opiate, alkaloid, and MJ business all speak otherwise.
Sigh, some people don't think a bell curve be like it is, but it do. Yes, in some populations (e.g. homeless) you will find statistically greater addiction rates. And data suggest that in states where pot has been legalized usage rates aren't skyrocketing. So no, your examples really don't "speak otherwise" once you take the blinders off, tone down the confirmation bias, and step back and look at the big picture based on data.  
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Tens of millions aren't losers or genetically predisposed to opiate addiction.
Hold on, now you are making the argument that opiate addiction is a function of genetics? So which is it? The drugs themselves are addictive (your previous claim), or its a genetic predisposition (your new claim)? It's difficult to debate someone whose positions are a moving target...
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Many thousands don't even get meaningful pain relief vs. NSAIDs (like me) --that isn't evidence the drugs are ineffective at dulling pain. Many thousands apparently are, though, and since they become unable to keep their addiction *their* problem, it becomes *my* problem.
Can you articulate in a meaningful way how it becomes your problem?

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An awful lot of the last crop of heroin addicts died from overdose, AIDS, hepatitis, or suicide (I include death by exposure while homeless in this set). Others are probably still in prison. A small percentage overcame addiction with outside intervention of various sorts. A small percentage of those have not relapsed.
So what? That is the product of free will. People are free to make bad decisions. The alternative is we live in a police state where some government bureaucrats make all the decisions on what is good/bad for you, and what you can/can't do. If you want to live in a free country that means living with the knowledge that some percent of the population will make bad decisions.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:02:35 PM EST
[#15]
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They shouldn't be.
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See post below;

I know from previous threads here in GD that there are shit ton of GD members that consume massive amounts of pain meds, and there have even been a couple suicide threads that involved members in extreme pain who were still taking opioids.
Your point?

Better to have them off themselves sooner because the pain is unbearable?

Here's an idea. People take what they want to take or what their doctor (who should not have to worry about the government playing nanny) advises them to take.

Everyone can make believe they're an adult and do what they want with their own body and not worry about what some other adult does with their own body.

A novel concept, I know. Personal responsibility, liberty, and freedom.
They are prescription drugs.
They shouldn't be.
It seems so simple but some posters want to control you.  But not your vicious dog, interestingly enough.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:05:36 PM EST
[#16]
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Doctors: we have this drug but it is really addictive and we are going to control its use. People will need to have to learn to deal some pain.

People: DOCTORS HAVE DRUGS TO STOP ALL PAIN. LET'S HELP UNTIL WE GET THEM.

Government: Doctors are keeping the good medication from the people. People have a right to those medications. We will write into the patients bill of rights that anyone who says they are in pain needs to be believed.

Doctors: This is dumb.

Government: Lawsuits are a thing.

People: I am in 11 out of 10 pain despite playing video games and walking around and smoking without a problem.

Doctors: Not going to prescribe this.

Government: Lawsuits in 3... 2...

Doctors: Fine. But this is on the politicians.

*A few years later*

Government: OMG! Doctors are making everyone addicts!

And thus you have the "opioid addiction crisis".
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 100% accurate.  Not the popular opinion unfortunately.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:06:06 PM EST
[#17]
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Can you articulate in a meaningful way how it becomes your problem?
So what? That is the product of free will. People are free to make bad decisions. The alternative is we live in a police state where some government bureaucrats make all the decisions on what is good/bad for you, and what you can/can't do. If you want to live in a free country that means living with the knowledge that some percent of the population will make bad decisions.  
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No. You are completely wrong here. When taxpayer dollars to to revive an addict at 7am and they are back in the ER by 6pm on the taxpayer dime it isn't a free will issue. If it were we would let them for where they lay. The police state starts by people saying we need to confiscate your money in order for that addict to get treatment which they abuse to help and the taxpayer has no say in the spending of that money.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:08:02 PM EST
[#18]
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100% accurate.  Not the popular opinion unfortunately.
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Same as the housing market collapse. You can even play the video outside of the NYC court after Cuomo(?) Used the banks for a 3rd time and they finally left the court and said that the policy being forced on them will screw the markets and when it does to blame the folks that forced the issue.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:08:24 PM EST
[#19]
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I think what has happened is the street narcotics has gotten out of hand and the government is over reacting and punishing lawful opiod users.

Its no different then  gun laws. Soon you'll hear about "pain management loopholes"
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This.  I think this whole bullshit story about soccer moms injecting smack off the street is just horseshit. I'm sure the wide fucking open border, resulting is massive oversupply of heroin and fentanyl, has nothing at all to do with increase usage of that particular set of drugs.  Nope, none at all.

So I get to pay a price but not being able to get fucking ambien filled, just so we can continue to fail to enforce any semblance of law on the border.

In all likelihood, it's recreational drug users, who will usually try anything so when the norco runs out then move on the heroin like its no big deal.  And then we see news shows that talk about the alleged pill to needle pipeline.  Totally different than someone developing a dependency from a legit prescription.  But as usual, politicians feel the need to be seen doing "something", so they fuck over legit users.

My mom had knee replacement, had complications, and was prescribed 280 total percocet.  She still has five left.

To read about it here, that many pills is *guaranteed* to have created an addict.  Yet inexplicably, it didnt.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:10:07 PM EST
[#20]
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No. You are completely wrong here. When taxpayer dollars to to revive an addict at 7am and they are back in the ER by 6pm on the taxpayer dime it isn't a free will issue. If it were we would let them for where they lay. The police state starts by people saying we need to confiscate your money in order for that addict to get treatment which they abuse to help and the taxpayer has no say in the spending of that money.
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Can you articulate in a meaningful way how it becomes your problem?
So what? That is the product of free will. People are free to make bad decisions. The alternative is we live in a police state where some government bureaucrats make all the decisions on what is good/bad for you, and what you can/can't do. If you want to live in a free country that means living with the knowledge that some percent of the population will make bad decisions.  
No. You are completely wrong here. When taxpayer dollars to to revive an addict at 7am and they are back in the ER by 6pm on the taxpayer dime it isn't a free will issue. If it were we would let them for where they lay. The police state starts by people saying we need to confiscate your money in order for that addict to get treatment which they abuse to help and the taxpayer has no say in the spending of that money.
So, then you are unequivocally for the same type of restrictions on alcohol and tobacco that you seem to be supporting for opioids? After all, those two products are far more detrimental to society than drugs. What about guns? How many ganbangers get shot up that we tax payers have to pay for their healthcare and time in jail? Perhaps using your logic we need similar restrictions on firearms to control those costs to society.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:10:58 PM EST
[#21]
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And don’t believe the ad slogans or pharma claims parroted by the doctor.

Do your due dilegence & make your own choices.
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Do you mean like reading the label?
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:12:30 PM EST
[#22]
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This.  I think this whole bullshit story about soccer moms injecting smack off the street is just horseshit.

In all likelihood, it's recreational drug users, who will usually try anything so when the norco runs out then move on the heroin like its no big deal.  And then we see news shows that talk about the alleged pill to needle pipeline.  Totally different than someone developing a dependency from a legit prescription.  But as usual, politicians feel the need to be seen doing "something", so they fuck over legit users.

My mom had knee replacement, had complications, and was prescribed 280 total percocet.  She still has five left.

To read about it here, that many pills is *guaranteed* to have created an addict.  Yet inexplicably, it didnt.
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I think what has happened is the street narcotics has gotten out of hand and the government is over reacting and punishing lawful opiod users.

Its no different then  gun laws. Soon you'll hear about "pain management loopholes"
This.  I think this whole bullshit story about soccer moms injecting smack off the street is just horseshit.

In all likelihood, it's recreational drug users, who will usually try anything so when the norco runs out then move on the heroin like its no big deal.  And then we see news shows that talk about the alleged pill to needle pipeline.  Totally different than someone developing a dependency from a legit prescription.  But as usual, politicians feel the need to be seen doing "something", so they fuck over legit users.

My mom had knee replacement, had complications, and was prescribed 280 total percocet.  She still has five left.

To read about it here, that many pills is *guaranteed* to have created an addict.  Yet inexplicably, it didnt.
Shudder - she was lucky; the drug warriors know just one pill and you could be a junkie.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:17:52 PM EST
[#23]
I am amazed at how "now" do to the "Opiod Crisis" normal people have been become "dopers" and "addicts", when the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed Opiods by their Dr's have medically legitimate reasons for them.

Amazingly similar to the way guns and gun owners are talked about by certain groups of people also.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:26:45 PM EST
[#24]
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I am amazed at how "now" do to the "Opiod Crisis" normal people have been become "dopers" and "addicts", when the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed Opiods by their Dr's have medically legitimate reasons for them.

Amazingly similar to the way guns and gun owners are talked about by certain groups of people also.
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For short term use, ABSOLUTELY.  That is not the problem.  It is the long term use of the drugs as study after study shows that it is unsafe and ineffective for the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed them.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:30:44 PM EST
[#25]
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So, what would you have someone who is in excruciating pain and has found an opioid that works for them, take?

Just tough it out with some ibuprofen?

"Oh, you have 5 crushed disks and constant nerve pain? Well, we can't have you taking an opioid. You might get addicted. Much better for you to live in agonizing pain so we feel better about ourselves".

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I have an answer, most of GD would rather take chemicals then use a plant that has no reported deaths.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:38:50 PM EST
[#26]
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The deal with oxycontin, which was genuine, was that it makes abuse more difficult. It is a time-release oxycodone tablet made in such a way that it can't (at least not easily) be chewed, dissolved, ground up, et c. Doing those things releases the full dose immediately, which gives the buzz that abusers are after.
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LOOOOOOOOL
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 5:57:20 PM EST
[#27]
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Sigh, some people don't think a bell curve be like it is, but it do. Yes, in some populations (e.g. homeless) you will find statistically greater addiction rates. And data suggest that in states where pot has been legalized usage rates aren't skyrocketing. So no, your examples really don't "speak otherwise" once you take the blinders off, tone down the confirmation bias, and step back and look at the big picture based on data.  
Hold on, now you are making the argument that opiate addiction is a function of genetics? So which is it? The drugs themselves are addictive (your previous claim), or its a genetic predisposition (your new claim)? It's difficult to debate someone whose positions are a moving target...
Can you articulate in a meaningful way how it becomes your problem?
So what? That is the product of free will. People are free to make bad decisions. The alternative is we live in a police state where some government bureaucrats make all the decisions on what is good/bad for you, and what you can/can't do. If you want to live in a free country that means living with the knowledge that some percent of the population will make bad decisions.  
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The whole "opioid crisis" is another stupid left-wing manufactured propaganda piece foisted on the ill-informed and dimwitted by the Democrat Party. It's no different than them focusing on firearms instead of the underlying problem (bad people doing bad stuff). The underlying problem [in the "opioid crisis"] is addiction. If you eliminated all opioids today the addicts would just transition to something else (more than likely meth, cocaine, alcohol, etc.). People need to stop being so gullible and focusing on the inanimate "thing" and instead focus on the underlying behavior.
This is idiotic, the scale of the opioid issue is very real.  There are suddenly so many more addicts,
Really? According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) Center for Behavioral Health Statistics and Quality, National Surveys on Drug Use and Health (NSDUHs) between 2002 and 2014 all substances abuse rates were trending downward or remained fairly unchanged.
https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_2790/images/image_file_2760_BlockImageOne_1580327694.png

Source
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largely because it's such addicting stuff compared to what losers typically got high on (shocker) and because our country is being doused with it like an insecticide along both legitimate and illegal channels to reach as much of society as possible.
Riddle me this, how is it tens of millions of people annually are prescribed opioids and never become addicted? If opioids are so addicting how come everyone who uses opioids doesn't become addicted to them? Myself, my wife, and countless other people I know used opioids after surgery and, shockingly, not a single one of us became addicts.

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We had a similar issue with heroin in years past, and it basically died out with its users under heavy cultural and law enforcement opposition (and disruption of overseas suppliers)
And guess what? If you run the data you will more than likely find those addicts simply transitioned from heroin to something else, be it other illicit drugs, alcohol, etc.
I call massive BS on the SAHMSA chart; homeless in Kali, pot legalization, trends on opiate, alkaloid, and MJ business all speak otherwise.
Sigh, some people don't think a bell curve be like it is, but it do. Yes, in some populations (e.g. homeless) you will find statistically greater addiction rates. And data suggest that in states where pot has been legalized usage rates aren't skyrocketing. So no, your examples really don't "speak otherwise" once you take the blinders off, tone down the confirmation bias, and step back and look at the big picture based on data.  
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Tens of millions aren't losers or genetically predisposed to opiate addiction.
Hold on, now you are making the argument that opiate addiction is a function of genetics? So which is it? The drugs themselves are addictive (your previous claim), or its a genetic predisposition (your new claim)? It's difficult to debate someone whose positions are a moving target...
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Many thousands don't even get meaningful pain relief vs. NSAIDs (like me) --that isn't evidence the drugs are ineffective at dulling pain. Many thousands apparently are, though, and since they become unable to keep their addiction *their* problem, it becomes *my* problem.
Can you articulate in a meaningful way how it becomes your problem?

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An awful lot of the last crop of heroin addicts died from overdose, AIDS, hepatitis, or suicide (I include death by exposure while homeless in this set). Others are probably still in prison. A small percentage overcame addiction with outside intervention of various sorts. A small percentage of those have not relapsed.
So what? That is the product of free will. People are free to make bad decisions. The alternative is we live in a police state where some government bureaucrats make all the decisions on what is good/bad for you, and what you can/can't do. If you want to live in a free country that means living with the knowledge that some percent of the population will make bad decisions.  
Yes, some people are more vulnerable to addiction in general as well as opioid-specific problems, some are more or less effected by the numbing effect.  These factors partially explain why some have no issues, why others have terrible issues, but are completely irrelevant to the fact that obviously far too many users have issues for whatever reason.  Your argument that “many can handle the drugs so they aren’t the problem” is as worthless as me claiming the same about pain.  Many can handle the pain, after all (so called “pain tolerance”).

The remainder of your post suggests addiction is a function of free will, and addicts are only a problem to themselves.  OK, then, lol, I think we’re done here.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:02:30 PM EST
[#28]
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This.  I think this whole bullshit story about soccer moms injecting smack off the street is just horseshit. I'm sure the wide fucking open border, resulting is massive oversupply of heroin and fentanyl, has nothing at all to do with increase usage of that particular set of drugs.  Nope, none at all.

So I get to pay a price but not being able to get fucking ambien filled, just so we can continue to fail to enforce any semblance of law on the border.

In all likelihood, it's recreational drug users, who will usually try anything so when the norco runs out then move on the heroin like its no big deal.  And then we see news shows that talk about the alleged pill to needle pipeline.  Totally different than someone developing a dependency from a legit prescription.  But as usual, politicians feel the need to be seen doing "something", so they fuck over legit users.

My mom had knee replacement, had complications, and was prescribed 280 total percocet.  She still has five left.

To read about it here, that many pills is *guaranteed* to have created an addict.  Yet inexplicably, it didnt.
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I think what has happened is the street narcotics has gotten out of hand and the government is over reacting and punishing lawful opiod users.

Its no different then  gun laws. Soon you'll hear about "pain management loopholes"
This.  I think this whole bullshit story about soccer moms injecting smack off the street is just horseshit. I'm sure the wide fucking open border, resulting is massive oversupply of heroin and fentanyl, has nothing at all to do with increase usage of that particular set of drugs.  Nope, none at all.

So I get to pay a price but not being able to get fucking ambien filled, just so we can continue to fail to enforce any semblance of law on the border.

In all likelihood, it's recreational drug users, who will usually try anything so when the norco runs out then move on the heroin like its no big deal.  And then we see news shows that talk about the alleged pill to needle pipeline.  Totally different than someone developing a dependency from a legit prescription.  But as usual, politicians feel the need to be seen doing "something", so they fuck over legit users.

My mom had knee replacement, had complications, and was prescribed 280 total percocet.  She still has five left.

To read about it here, that many pills is *guaranteed* to have created an addict.  Yet inexplicably, it didnt.
Perhaps not overreacting so much as doing the only things they feel they can (because God knows they can’t close the border, lol).  If you deny yourself the tools needed to solve a problem, stupid solutions are what remains.

Me?  I’d drop a JDAM (or covertly plant a bomb, whatever) on a Nork, Chinese, or Mexican fentanyl plant, & Bhopal an entire city of human filth supporting those industries, and see if they want to keep pushing the issue.  It’s no different than if they were smuggling in Ricin or anthrax, the way I see it; covert chemical warfare.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:08:09 PM EST
[#29]
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For short term use, ABSOLUTELY.  That is not the problem.  It is the long term use of the drugs as study after study shows that it is unsafe and ineffective for the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed them.
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I am amazed at how "now" do to the "Opiod Crisis" normal people have been become "dopers" and "addicts", when the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed Opiods by their Dr's have medically legitimate reasons for them.

Amazingly similar to the way guns and gun owners are talked about by certain groups of people also.
For short term use, ABSOLUTELY.  That is not the problem.  It is the long term use of the drugs as study after study shows that it is unsafe and ineffective for the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed them.
That would indicate the central problem lies with those who do the prescribing. So, your statement alludes to physician being the heart of the problem. After all, if study after study truly shows they are unsafe and ineffective for the vast (to the third power) majority of people it would indicate then we should focus enforcement policies on those doing the prescribing.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:17:13 PM EST
[#30]
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That would indicate the central problem lies with those who do the prescribing. So, your statement alludes to physician being the heart of the problem. After all, if study after study truly shows they are unsafe and ineffective for the vast (to the third power) majority of people it would indicate then we should focus enforcement policies on those doing the prescribing.
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I am amazed at how "now" do to the "Opiod Crisis" normal people have been become "dopers" and "addicts", when the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed Opiods by their Dr's have medically legitimate reasons for them.

Amazingly similar to the way guns and gun owners are talked about by certain groups of people also.
For short term use, ABSOLUTELY.  That is not the problem.  It is the long term use of the drugs as study after study shows that it is unsafe and ineffective for the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed them.
That would indicate the central problem lies with those who do the prescribing. So, your statement alludes to physician being the heart of the problem. After all, if study after study truly shows they are unsafe and ineffective for the vast (to the third power) majority of people it would indicate then we should focus enforcement policies on those doing the prescribing.
The physician is prescribing the medicine partly based on the FDA approved labeling, the blueprint of the drug.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:18:47 PM EST
[#31]
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Yes, some people are more vulnerable to addiction in general as well as opioid-specific problems, some are more or less effected by the numbing effect.  These factors partially explain why some have no issues, why others have terrible issues, but are completely irrelevant to the fact that obviously far too many users have issues for whatever reason.  Your argument that "many can handle the drugs so they aren't the problem" is as worthless as me claiming the same about pain.  Many can handle the pain, after all (so called "pain tolerance").

The remainder of your post suggests addiction is a function of free will, and addicts are only a problem to themselves. OK, then, lol, I think we're done here.
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If it isn't a function of free will then we must treat addicts as victims whose station in life is due to factors beyond their control. Ergo, the addict that is intoxicated and gets in a car wreck and kills your family cannot be held accountable no more than the diabetic that suffers a diabetic emergency and gets in a car wreck and kills your family could be held accountable.

Free will doesn't factor in the ease of doing something, just the conscious choice to do it or not. An addict will most definitely have a difficult time freeing him/herself of the addiction, but at any given time he/she has the free will to make the choice to start down that road.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:22:00 PM EST
[#32]
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The physician is prescribing the medicine based on the FDA approved labeling, the blueprint of the drug.
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I am amazed at how "now" do to the "Opiod Crisis" normal people have been become "dopers" and "addicts", when the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed Opiods by their Dr's have medically legitimate reasons for them.

Amazingly similar to the way guns and gun owners are talked about by certain groups of people also.
For short term use, ABSOLUTELY.  That is not the problem.  It is the long term use of the drugs as study after study shows that it is unsafe and ineffective for the VAST VAST VAST MAJORITY of people being prescribed them.
That would indicate the central problem lies with those who do the prescribing. So, your statement alludes to physician being the heart of the problem. After all, if study after study truly shows they are unsafe and ineffective for the vast (to the third power) majority of people it would indicate then we should focus enforcement policies on those doing the prescribing.
The physician is prescribing the medicine based on the FDA approved labeling, the blueprint of the drug.
I'm quite aware of that, but is the physician not aware of all these studies you alluded to? Remember, physicians practice medicine and make treatment decisions based on their assessment and diagnosis, but that assessment and diagnosis is most certainly influenced by industry best practices and leading research. If the best practices and leading research indicates that study after study shows they are unsafe, then why would these physicians continue to prescribe them?
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:25:32 PM EST
[#33]
Yeah, I can't wait for the Class Action Lawsuit to go through, after the blood sucking lawyers are done I might get a gift certificate for $19.99 if I'm lucky.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:26:43 PM EST
[#34]
OP, is it your opinion that the healthcare industry is the root cause of the "opioid crisis"? I want it on record.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:31:03 PM EST
[#35]
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This inanimate thing was prescribed by doctors, and patients were told how to take it. Some patients followed exactly what was told to them, and thanks to these new laws have to go to"pain management buildings" vs getting a RX directly from their physician. So who gained from that change? You have an interesting jumping point from someone taking their medicine as they trusted their medical professionals, to taking meth as a next step?
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Why is it, when its between a woman and her doctor with 98% of the time there is a death, it none of the government's business.  But in this case, a Dr prescribing something his education and experience may benefit the patient, the government goes full retard?

Make it harder for legitimate pain patients to get legally prescribed, FDA-approved Rx while not doing a G-D thing about the open southern border where 85% of the Chinese Communist-mfg fentanyl laced Mexican tar heroin comes across, which is the cause for 85% of the overdose deaths.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:34:51 PM EST
[#36]
BINGO!!!!
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:38:00 PM EST
[#37]
Everyone needs to get over it because heroin, opium, morphine, etc are not good long term and they are going away. Period end of story.
I'm sorry the medical industry made you physically dependent on it. It was criminal on the government's part and the pharmaceutical companies. I hope there are massive payouts to all of us for this bullshit.
There are answers for pain management but there not as easy as a pill. Some of them suck cost money and require massive lifestyle changes. But they work.
The good news is you will live longer and feel better in the long run.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:47:36 PM EST
[#38]
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Everyone needs to get over it because heroin, opium, morphine, etc are not good long term and they are going away. Period end of story.
I'm sorry the medical industry made you physically dependent on it. It was criminal on the government's part and the pharmaceutical companies. I hope there are massive payouts to all of us for this bullshit.
There are answers for pain management but there not as easy as a pill. Some of them suck cost money and require massive lifestyle changes. But they work.
The good news is you will live longer and feel better in the long run.
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I keep seeing everybody talk about long term side effects but nobody actually says what those are? Can you provide links or studies that show what 1 year, 5, year and 10 year managed morphine or opiate use does negatively?  Are people just regurgitating talking points or  can you drop some real info?
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:51:11 PM EST
[#39]
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OP, is it your opinion that the healthcare industry is the root cause of the "opioid crisis"? I want it on record.
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No.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:53:44 PM EST
[#40]
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So, then you are unequivocally for the same type of restrictions on alcohol and tobacco that you seem to be supporting for opioids? After all, those two products are far more detrimental to society than drugs. What about guns? How many ganbangers get shot up that we tax payers have to pay for their healthcare and time in jail? Perhaps using your logic we need similar restrictions on firearms to control those costs to society.
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Ad absurdum is a fallacious argument. But yes, we shouldn't be paying for tobacco related illness'. Neither have any positive benefit.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:53:48 PM EST
[#41]
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Yeah, I can't wait for the Class Action Lawsuit to go through, after the blood sucking lawyers are done I might get a gift certificate for $19.99 if I'm lucky.
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The class action lawsuit is  pathetic. I know roughly the breakdown of who gets what, and as usual, it's a complete money grab for lawyers and municipality/city/state.  The IBEW also jumped on that train.  That will get settled out of court and nothing will happen.

This lawsuit and what this thread is about is not a class action lawsuit.  It's a lawsuit against the FDA where one man is spending millions upon millions of dollars to have a label changed with zero financial reward.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 6:55:39 PM EST
[#42]
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I'm quite aware of that, but is the physician not aware of all these studies you alluded to? Remember, physicians practice medicine and make treatment decisions based on their assessment and diagnosis, but that assessment and diagnosis is most certainly influenced by industry best practices and leading research. If the best practices and leading research indicates that study after study shows they are unsafe, then why would these physicians continue to prescribe them?
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Patient bill of rights state that physicians MUST treat pain with opiods if patients say they need it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 7:05:29 PM EST
[#43]
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I have an answer, most of GD would rather take chemicals then use a plant that has no reported deaths.
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So, what would you have someone who is in excruciating pain and has found an opioid that works for them, take?

Just tough it out with some ibuprofen?

"Oh, you have 5 crushed disks and constant nerve pain? Well, we can't have you taking an opioid. You might get addicted. Much better for you to live in agonizing pain so we feel better about ourselves".

I have an answer, most of GD would rather take chemicals then use a plant that has no reported deaths.
But you go to hell if you use the plant. Says so in the Bible.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 7:06:46 PM EST
[#44]
If 60 minutes told me that water was wet and will quench my thirst, i wouldn't fucking believe them, nor would i ever trust water again.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 7:13:02 PM EST
[#45]
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I have an answer, most of GD would rather take chemicals then use a plant that has no reported deaths.
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So, what would you have someone who is in excruciating pain and has found an opioid that works for them, take?

Just tough it out with some ibuprofen?

"Oh, you have 5 crushed disks and constant nerve pain? Well, we can't have you taking an opioid. You might get addicted. Much better for you to live in agonizing pain so we feel better about ourselves".

I have an answer, most of GD would rather take chemicals then use a plant that has no reported deaths.
Using a legal chemical is preferable to using a natural plant that will potentially take away your gun rights, property, money, and freedom.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 7:19:18 PM EST
[#46]
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So, what would you have someone who is in excruciating pain and has found an opioid that works for them, take?

Just tough it out with some ibuprofen?

"Oh, you have 5 crushed disks and constant nerve pain? Well, we can't have you taking an opioid. You might get addicted. Much better for you to live in agonizing pain so we feel better about ourselves".

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The only medication I'm on is for high blood pressure.
But this guy has a point. Some people do need pain killers. Real ones, not OTC ones. No one wants to live in pain.
It's too bad that the illegal users and abusers fuck this up for everyone else. Like that new MME (morphine milligram equivalent) set by the .gov. It's bullshit. Some people do actually need more.
Doctors are afraid to prescribe anything now because they're worried about what the .gov will do to them. So instead of docs making decisions based upon what they think is best, they have to make decisions on what the .gov thinks is best for you.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 7:24:56 PM EST
[#47]
I'm a chronic pain patient.

I'm baffled that we haven't come up with a better treatment than these super band aids.

I think that the economics are the root problem.  Big pharma has no incentive to come up with anything better.

Why would they?

They have an addictive, effective treatment for a variety of diagnoses that have no other option.  The perfect acute pain reliever taken as a permanent regular medication for chronic pain simply because nothing else compares or exists....

Opiates print money, and they would even if they did it on the up and up with no shenanigans.

(Alot of folks I respect are pushing medical marijuana, but I haven't seriously considered it for my own treatment.  I can see it addressing stress, and the stress induced aspects of chronic pain, but a million other medications can do that as well, even harmless ones like clonodine, and certainly benzos or the right antidepressants.)
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 7:39:06 PM EST
[#48]
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I keep seeing everybody talk about long term side effects but nobody actually says what those are? Can you provide links or studies that show what 1 year, 5, year and 10 year managed morphine or opiate use does negatively?  Are people just regurgitating talking points or  can you drop some real info?
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I keep seeing everybody talk about long term side effects but nobody actually says what those are? Can you provide links or studies that show what 1 year, 5, year and 10 year managed morphine or opiate use does negatively?  Are people just regurgitating talking points or  can you drop some real info?
Do you know how to use google the information is everywhere.
The first site that popped up for me. And this doesn't even get the list started the last time I sat in on a pain class the list was long and 5 years ago pain docs who weren't pushers making a fast buck where freaking out about it. There are corrupt Doctors making millions off this and should be shot.
Gastrointestinal issues.
One of the most prevalent side effects of opioid usage is constipation. In fact, studies have shown that 40%-45% of those on opiate therapy suffer from it.[2] But it’s not the only gastrointestinal trouble caused by opioids; it’s only one of the symptoms categorized under the title “opioid-induced bowel dysfunction,” which also includes abdominal cramping, spasm and bloating, among others.[3] But constipation is often considered one of the worst, since it’s often unmanageable with OTC treatments like stool softeners and laxatives. 2 In addition to bowel-related disorders, opioids can also cause nausea in 25% of people.

Sleep-related breathing problems.
Abnormal breathing while asleep is a concerning issue for those on opioids, especially those on high doses. In fact, in a small study, 92% of patients on a dose of more than 200 morphine milligram equivalents (MME) a day experienced ataxic or irregular breathing, compared to 61% of people taking less than 200 mg and 5% of people not taking opioids.[4]

Cardiovascular issues.
Long-term opioid use, when compared with NSAIDs, has been shown in some studies to pose an increased risk for events such as myocardial infarction and heart failure.[2][5] This is especially true for those taking codeine for more than 180 days.

Hyperalgesia.
Opioid-induced hyperalgesia (OIH) is another possible outcome for patients on long-term opioid therapy. In cases of OIH, the patient actually becomes increasingly sensitive to pain. Although it’s not clear how prevalent OIH is, it can certainly cause some unwanted effects, including extreme acute pain after surgery and escalating opioid dosages.[6]

Increased risk of fractures.
Opioid use is associated with an increased risk of fractures, especially among the elderly population. The theory behind this is that opioids affect the central nervous system, causing such symptoms as dizziness and reduced alertness. [2][7] This, in turn, can result in falls. Elderly patients taking more than 50 MME a day have recently been found to be at double the risk of fracture among the elderly population, with a yearly fracture rate of 9.95%.[2]

Hormone problems.
Chronic opioid therapy can also have an impact on the endocrine system, causing hormone changes in both men and women. For men, this manifests as hypogonadism, which causes a decrease in the production of sex hormones, particularly testosterone, as well as erectile dysfunction, reduced libido, fatigue and even hot flashes. In women, opioids can cause a decrease in the levels of estrogen in the body, in addition to low follicle-stimulating hormone and increased prolactin. Combined, these changes can lead to osteoporosis, inappropriate milk production and light or infrequent periods.[2]

Depression.
Patients on opioid therapy for long periods have an increased likelihood of developing depression. In one study, 38% of people on long-term opioids had at least moderate depression. [2][9] Furthermore, other opioid side effects, like intractable constipation, can lead to or worsen depression. [2]
And on and on
But it doesn't matter it's over.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 7:52:20 PM EST
[#49]
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Addiction gets thrown round  a lot and I think many are confusing addiction with chemical dependency.   Every person I have known on long term opiate use for pain, after a certain amount of time has become chemically defendant. As in their body will go through a withdrawl cycle after use is discontinued.  A person who is addicted will not voluntarily subject themselves to withdrawals if they have a choice. See the difference?

Chemically defendant they will withdrawl and go about life and try to figure out a way to manage their pain, they are looking fr pain relief not a high or euphoria. An addict will do anything under the sun to not enter withdrawl stage, they are not looking for pain relief but instead looking for the high or Euphoria which is why they are in constant need of higher , stronger and more drugs.
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Well said, and thank you for getting it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2019 8:12:55 PM EST
[#50]
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This is idiotic, the scale of the opioid issue is very real.  There are suddenly so many more addicts, largely because it’s such addicting stuff compared to what losers typically got high on (shocker) and because our country is being doused with it like an insecticide along both legitimate and illegal channels to reach as much of society as possible.  We had a similar issue with heroin in years past, and it basically died out with its users under heavy cultural and law enforcement opposition (and disruption of overseas suppliers)

The opium crisis in China wasn’t due to social problems, it was due to a chemical agent that inexorably fucks with peoples’ minds being introduced in large quantities as a weapon.  That introduction was allowed because of a social problem, but spiraled into something new from there.  The only solution they found was attacking supplier & demander simultaneously, ruthlessly putting to death anyone associated with opium.
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Well we should do that here then.
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