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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:35:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Tens of thousands of gallons: That's how much water it takes to extinguish a single electric vehicle fire. As EVs becomes more prevalent on our roads possibly reaching 50 percent of all new car sales by 2030 firefighters are still struggling to get proper training on how to quickly and effectively put out these incredibly intense blazes. Vox did a deep dive into EV fires. The publication focused on Teslas, but that's not really fair as all EVs have fire problems. It took General Motors several tries to remedy a fire problem with the Chevy Bolt, at one point instructing owners not to park their vehicles inside garages or near structures and to only charge their vehicles a certain amount. And these are cars that hadn't even crashed. They'd just go up randomly. moar EV THREAD As for EV fires, the problem is that water does not extinguish the fire. It only keeps it cool enough to let it burn out under control. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:37:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Toxic AFFF.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:37:21 PM EDT
[#3]
My son has told me they are a real problem. No industry standard between manufactures and each vehicle has its unique dangers. If not done correctly they can kill a first responder.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:38:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles.
Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:40:39 PM EDT
[#5]
You what is worse than an EV fire? An EV fire with a Cocaine Bear!
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:41:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don't they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:41:45 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You what is worse than an EV fire? An EV fire with a Cocaine Bear! https://media.tenor.com/W6RtI6ChrooAAAAC/bear-fire.gif  |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:41:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You what is worse than an EV fire? An EV fire with a Cocaine Bear! https://media.tenor.com/W6RtI6ChrooAAAAC/bear-fire.gif 
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:43:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain Maybe not a bad idea. A CAD truck can throw sand a long way. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:44:07 PM EDT
[#10]
It's almost like EVs were rushed to the market without knowing all the pitfalls.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:44:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... Some sort of smother device (think giant hemisphere that errects on both sides of fire then you push it together effectivly denying air to the whole shebang and keep it in place until temps drop(couple HOURS) woudl be my guess as to most viable but that would be logistically difficult |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:44:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... Some sort of smother device (think giant hemisphere that errects on both sides of fire then you push it together effectivly denying air to the whole shebang and keep it in place until temps drop(couple HOURS) woudl be my guess as to most viable but that would be logistically difficult fuck 
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:45:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain This or just let it burn and contain. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:46:35 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:46:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Time to bring back Halon
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:47:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This or just let it burn and contain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain This or just let it burn and contain. Meanwhile the entire fucking freeway is shut down for hours. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:47:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Add potential electrocution.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:48:43 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... Some sort of smother device (think giant hemisphere that errects on both sides of fire then you push it together effectivly denying air to the whole shebang and keep it in place until temps drop(couple HOURS) woudl be my guess as to most viable but that would be logistically difficult Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... Some sort of smother device (think giant hemisphere that errects on both sides of fire then you push it together effectivly denying air to the whole shebang and keep it in place until temps drop(couple HOURS) woudl be my guess as to most viable but that would be logistically difficult Sounds like the molten sand would do a good job of blocking oxygen. Sounds like a feature, not a bug. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:48:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Firefighters also probably weren't very well trained on how to put out a gasoline powered car when they first came around either. Not saying EVs don't present a new situation and it doesn't need to be adjusted for....but sort of a hysterical agenda piece... I am sure we as humans have the ability to deal with a battery fire and that we can equip our emergency services to do so.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:49:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Add potential electrocution. That's easy. You cut one wire and the HV pack is disconnected. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:49:43 PM EDT
[#21]
I believe lithium batteries provide fuel and oxidizer. Not sure you can stop that.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:50:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain One of my best friends, a FF, told me that across the nation, some departments are registering some of these EV fires at about 5000 degrees. Sand turns to glass at about 3200...I suppose it's possible that an overwhelming amount of sand could snuff out the O2, but obviously, that would need to be experimented on before they go out making windows and vases on interstates. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:50:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Have they tried treating it like an oilhead fire?
The use of HEs would at least be entertaining. HEs for EVs! Think of the children! |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:51:34 PM EDT
[#24]
Until we get away from needing a gigantic battery to storage and feed power to the electric motors we are kind of screwed. Some sort of grid system needs to be built into the roadways that powers the cars allowing a much smaller battery to be required onboard for off grid driving. Batteries are the Achilles heel of the EV they limit range, increase weight making the car dangerously overweight, and are just a danger all around.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:51:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's easy. You cut one wire and the HV pack is disconnected. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Add potential electrocution. That's easy. You cut one wire and the HV pack is disconnected. https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:52:34 PM EDT
[#26]
Pro Tip: Water makes metals like lithium explode.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:53:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have they tried treating it like an oilhead fire? The use of HEs would at least be entertaining. HEs for EVs! Think of the children! While that's an undeniably fun thought, if as someone pointed out is true that lithium batteries contain both fuel and oxidizer it wouldn't help. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:56:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's easy. You cut one wire and the HV pack is disconnected. Because all accidents make acessing and cutting the lead wire super easy, and their can't possibly already be damage that has shorted the battery, electrifying the car. In IMSA/Endurance racing, the risk of electrocution is high enough with GTP cars, that there are external battery status lights for track and rescue workers, non-conductive safety rescue gear, extra training for all, high voltage specific pull off zones and driver training on how to properly exit the car without being killed in case of a shorted battery. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:56:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have they tried treating it like an oilhead fire? The use of HEs would at least be entertaining. HEs for EVs! Think of the children! While the use of HE would be fun. I say tanker truck, roll off truck with box, and Telegandler. Roll off container, fill with water, telehandler to drop EV in full water tank. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:56:57 PM EDT
[#30]
The "fire" (the flames) is miscellaneous materials burning (plastics, etc).
The heat source is the energy stored in the battery. Once the battery suffers a short circuit (usually an internal short), that energy is going to get dissipated, no matter what. You will not be stopping it. The energy dissipation causes the short circuit to get worse and worse. You can suppress the flames but you cannot stop the heat from being dissipated. This "thermal run away" is very well known throughout the battery community. It is not a surprise to anyone. It is not unique to any one maker. Some makers can have a design that's more vulnerable than others but all makers are vulnerable to this failure mechanism. There are design tweaks that could reduce the effect but no one wants to pay the weight, inefficiency and cost penalties associated with their implementation, and I mean NO ONE. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:57:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While that's an undeniably fun thought, if as someone pointed out is true that lithium batteries contain both fuel and oxidizer it wouldn't help. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Have they tried treating it like an oilhead fire? The use of HEs would at least be entertaining. HEs for EVs! Think of the children! While that's an undeniably fun thought, if as someone pointed out is true that lithium batteries contain both fuel and oxidizer it wouldn't help. So you are saying we need nuclear weapons not HE?
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:57:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You what is worse than an EV fire? An EV fire with a Cocaine Bear! https://media.tenor.com/W6RtI6ChrooAAAAC/bear-fire.gif 
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:57:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Throw a bunch of liquid nitrogen on it? Colder AND N2 would displace O2
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:58:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Fireproof metal container
Shove the EV in then push it into a sinkhole |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 2:59:03 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:00:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are saying we need nuclear weapons not HE? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Have they tried treating it like an oilhead fire? The use of HEs would at least be entertaining. HEs for EVs! Think of the children! While that's an undeniably fun thought, if as someone pointed out is true that lithium batteries contain both fuel and oxidizer it wouldn't help. So you are saying we need nuclear weapons not HE? Great point. Got to vaporize the highway to save it. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:00:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Toxic foam is the obvious answer.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:01:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Just carry a long metal pole with a hook. Grab vehicle and tow it where it can burn in peace.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:03:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe lithium batteries provide fuel and oxidizer. Not sure you can stop that. You have to get the material cold enough to stop that. Currently that involves lots of water |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:04:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This or just let it burn and contain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain This or just let it burn and contain. It’s a hammer and nail problem, when you are a firefighter, you put out fires. Sometimes that’s not the answer. Sometimes the best solution is to let the fire burn out and consume the fuel. I had to learn that lesson as a Fire Officer. It’s hard to stand by and watch it burn. Especially when you have a fire truck and fire hoses!
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:04:16 PM EDT
[#41]
To clarify, the material that is on fire is completely self sustaining AND completely enclosed. You can’t get any agent onto the burning material.
So a large tank that you could crane the vehicle up and submerge it is about the only option, and it’s not plausible currently Any action that we currently take to fight the fire is window dressing because the public expects firefighters to be doing SOMETHING. Pic of enclosed battery skateboard  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:04:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... molten sand = glass ? ?? Some sort of smother device (think giant hemisphere that errects on both sides of fire then you push it together effectivly denying air to the whole shebang and keep it in place until temps drop(couple HOURS) woudl be my guess as to most viable but that would be logistically difficult |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:04:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This or just let it burn and contain. This. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:07:13 PM EDT
[#44]
As a former squid firefighter, I was always a fan of PKP.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:08:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Lithium ion technology has its own oxidizer in a fire, so everyone saying to smother it…that won’t do shit.
Once it’s game on with Li-ion and Li-poly, the best you can do is just contain it until it’s done being mad at the world. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:09:10 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:09:26 PM EDT
[#47]
EV Thread
Luckily EV's are less likely to catch on fire than ICE....just harder to put out. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:09:42 PM EDT
[#48]
I’ve had this talk around the firehouse table numerous times. EV fire are challenging to say the least.
My worst case scenario is we burn down an entire block of houses in a neighborhood because a car fire in a garage (that we can’t put out easily) will quickly spread to houses that were already built way to close to each other. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:12:52 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve had this talk around the firehouse table numerous times. EV fire are challenging to say the least. My worst case scenario is we burn down an entire block of houses in a neighborhood because a car fire in a garage (that we can’t put out easily) will quickly spread to houses that were already built way to close to each other. Protect exposures. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:15:45 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve had this talk around the firehouse table numerous times. EV fire are challenging to say the least. My worst case scenario is we burn down an entire block of houses in a neighborhood because a car fire in a garage (that we can’t put out easily) will quickly spread to houses that were already built way to close to each other. How about a parking garage under an apartment building ? |
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