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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:18:03 PM EDT
[#1]
The battery is the fuel and oxidizer. You don't put it out. It's going to burn.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:19:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Just massively increase insurance premiums on EVs. And folks that have Tesla Walls
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:20:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:22:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Until we get away from needing a gigantic battery to storage and feed power to the electric motors we are kind of screwed. Some sort of grid system needs to be built into the roadways that powers the cars allowing a much smaller battery to be required onboard for off grid driving. Batteries are the Achilles heel of the EV they limit range, increase weight making the car dangerously overweight, and are just a danger all around. Few hundred billion should take care of that. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:23:24 PM EDT
[#5]
The only option I've seen that had a chance in hell of cooling the actual damaged cells in the battery to stop the thermal runaway was a spike that you placed under the vehicle that pierced up into the battery pack and flowed water directly into it.
ETA: here's a video  Rosenbauer Battery Extinguishing System Technology (BEST) |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:25:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about a parking garage under an apartment building ? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’ve had this talk around the firehouse table numerous times. EV fire are challenging to say the least. My worst case scenario is we burn down an entire block of houses in a neighborhood because a car fire in a garage (that we can’t put out easily) will quickly spread to houses that were already built way to close to each other. How about a parking garage under an apartment building ? Yes that would also suck. The good news, we don’t have to worry about that too much in my county yet. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:26:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Protect exposures. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’ve had this talk around the firehouse table numerous times. EV fire are challenging to say the least. My worst case scenario is we burn down an entire block of houses in a neighborhood because a car fire in a garage (that we can’t put out easily) will quickly spread to houses that were already built way to close to each other. Protect exposures. Yes. Water supply will be an issue. Most of our county relies on tankers and EV’s can burn for hours/take MASSIVE amounts of water to fully extinguish. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:27:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Going to need more John Wayne up in here:
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:28:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... Some sort of smother device (think giant hemisphere that errects on both sides of fire then you push it together effectivly denying air to the whole shebang and keep it in place until temps drop(couple HOURS) woudl be my guess as to most viable but that would be logistically difficult So it could melt the road? Probably not an issue if you can pull off to the side but stopped on a bridge or overpass could get very expensive. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:30:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain Because the sand truck would be at the supermarket doing grocery runs for the boys. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:30:46 PM EDT
[#11]
This forum is full of liberals who care more about safety than freedom.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:32:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only option I've seen that had a chance in hell of cooling the actual damaged cells in the battery to stop the thermal runaway was a spike that you placed under the vehicle that pierced up into the battery pack and flowed water directly into it. ETA: here's a video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaIAb3XgYVYHow do you get close enough to deploy it? A 3200 degree fire would need some stand off distance. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:32:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because the sand truck would be at the supermarket doing grocery runs for the boys. The sand truck is at the supermarket so that the crew can respond directly to sand emergencies that come in while getting the groceries. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:33:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because the sand truck would be at the supermarket doing grocery runs for the boys. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain Because the sand truck would be at the supermarket doing grocery runs for the boys. Well yeah, it makes the most sense to send the least busiest rig to the store for grocery runs. Am I missing something? |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:39:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: EV Thread Luckily EV's are less likely to catch on fire than ICE....just harder to put out. Really? How many ICE spontaneous combust just sitting there in the parking garage? |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:49:06 PM EDT
[#16]
I’m retired now, so not my headache, but I found this page with some interesting possibilities.
Apparently the Navy has developed a copper based agent for extinguishing Lithium fires, graphite works as well. Application by low pressure argon( nitrogen is reactive) or manually via shovel. https://www.amerex-fire.com/upl/downloads/tech-tips/class-d-fire-fighting-agents-937ba832.pdf Seems expensive… |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:52:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Few hundred billion should take care of that. I did not say there was a good solution. Just the giant push for EV before all the infrastructure is even planned out and starting to be built was stupid. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:55:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really? How many ICE spontaneous combust just sitting there in the parking garage? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: EV Thread Luckily EV's are less likely to catch on fire than ICE....just harder to put out. Really? How many ICE spontaneous combust just sitting there in the parking garage? Here is an article based on NTSB data. https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/ |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:57:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m retired now, so not my headache, but I found this page with some interesting possibilities. Apparently the Navy has developed a copper based agent for extinguishing Lithium fires, graphite works as well. Application by low pressure argon( nitrogen is reactive) or manually via shovel. https://www.amerex-fire.com/upl/downloads/tech-tips/class-d-fire-fighting-agents-937ba832.pdf Seems expensive… Expensive is relative though ... If it cost X amount of gallons of water, firefighter time/overtime, injuries of firefighters, equipment needing more frequent maintenance, and firefighter health effects from dealing with this stuff it might be worth the investment. I bet there are some big cost we are not seeing or aware of in them fighting the way they are now. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 3:59:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You what is worse than an EV fire? An EV fire with a Cocaine Bear! https://media.tenor.com/W6RtI6ChrooAAAAC/bear-fire.gif Lol |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:01:50 PM EDT
[#21]
JFC
If you hate EVs that much, maybe just don’t buy one? But nope, we have to have brand new anti-EV threads every single day. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:02:37 PM EDT
[#22]
There is no putting out the fire, the only thing you can do is contain until it depletes itself.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:05:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like the molten sand would do a good job of blocking oxygen. Sounds like a feature, not a bug. Are those jackets rated for lava? |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:06:29 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: JFC If you hate EVs that much, maybe just don’t buy one? But nope, we have to have brand new anti-EV threads every single day. Uhhhh…so lithium ion fires aren’t that big of a deal? Lol at you. This isn’t an anti EV thread so much as a concern about the real hazards of the batteries we use in them. But go bury your head in the sand. Maybe it’ll cool you down a bit. It won’t work on EV fires, though. 
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:07:01 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This forum is full of liberals who care more about safety than freedom. This is true. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:10:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe lithium batteries provide fuel and oxidizer. Not sure you can stop that. Exactly what I was wondering. SOL really if there is an oxidizer onboard. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:10:42 PM EDT
[#27]
The apt buildings I am building in DC has a closed in on 3 sides area for charging electric cars in the under ground garage. It also has a direct vent to the outside like a chimney and several extra sprinkler heads over the area with a dedicated floor drain.
They seem to be expecting it. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:12:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meanwhile the entire fucking freeway is shut down for hours. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain This or just let it burn and contain. Meanwhile the entire fucking freeway is shut down for hours. Bill the commie that owned the EV the resulting costs. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:14:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uhhhh…so lithium ion fires aren’t that big of a deal? Lol at you. This isn’t an anti EV thread so much as a concern about the real hazards of the batteries we use in them. But go bury your head in the sand. Maybe it’ll cool you down a bit. It won’t work on EV fires, though. So how long will it be before someone purposely shorts one , turning it into an VBIED? Sounds like it would be fubar in an enclosed area. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:21:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Rule of thumb. Hold your thumb up at arms length, if thumb won't completely block fire, you are too close.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:21:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So how long will it be before someone purposely shorts one , turning it into an VBIED? Sounds like it would be fubar in an enclosed area. Sounds like a job for Thermite!  Seriously, that would be bone simple. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:24:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rule of thumb. Hold your thumb up at arms length, if thumb won't completely block fire, you are too close. An excellent metric for ALL hazmat incidents. Stand back and allow the green & blue canaries to determine the need for safety zones. Sorry fellows , but it’s true… 
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:24:50 PM EDT
[#33]
Could you just use the water to protect the surrounding objects and just let it burn?
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:26:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill the commie that owned the EV the resulting costs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain This or just let it burn and contain. Meanwhile the entire fucking freeway is shut down for hours. Bill the commie that owned the EV the resulting costs. Why? They're not even paying the excise tax on gas to maintain said highway. Or maybe they can forfeit the $7500 tax credit when they buy a new one. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:27:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An excellent metric for ALL hazmat incidents. Stand back and allow the green & blue canaries to determine the need for safety zones. Sorry fellows , but it’s true… Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Rule of thumb. Hold your thumb up at arms length, if thumb won't completely block fire, you are too close. An excellent metric for ALL hazmat incidents. Stand back and allow the green & blue canaries to determine the need for safety zones. Sorry fellows , but it’s true… Don't forget uphill and upwind. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:29:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a former squid firefighter, I was always a fan of PKP. Ah yes...Purple K. All over the ramp at both MCAS El Toro and LAX.... |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:31:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:35:22 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:36:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pro Tip: Water makes metals like lithium explode.  https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2021_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf "USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take between approximately 3,000-8,000 gallons (11,356-30,283 liters) of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request additional water supply early. If water is not immediately available, use CO2, dry chemicals, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available" |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:40:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget uphill and upwind. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Rule of thumb. Hold your thumb up at arms length, if thumb won't completely block fire, you are too close. An excellent metric for ALL hazmat incidents. Stand back and allow the green & blue canaries to determine the need for safety zones. Sorry fellows , but it’s true… Don't forget uphill and upwind. Good point! |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:44:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just carry a long metal pole with a hook. Grab vehicle and tow it where it can burn in peace. Is that before or after the bodies are extracted? |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:49:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like the molten sand would do a good job of blocking oxygen. Sounds like a feature, not a bug.
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:51:20 PM EDT
[#43]
In the chemical production industry we used lime. You just shovel some over the fire, put the new guy on fire watch, and go take lunch.
Normally with metal fires you remove the oxygen but I'm not sure that is possible with the chemistry inside of these batteries. I did acids and toxics mostly so the metals/pyrophorics aren't my specialty. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:52:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meanwhile the entire fucking freeway is shut down for hours. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain This or just let it burn and contain. Meanwhile the entire fucking freeway is shut down for hours. This is what the plebs want. Give it to them. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:52:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about a parking garage under an apartment building ? 
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Posted: 2/1/2023 4:59:23 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is an article based on NTSB data. https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: EV Thread Luckily EV's are less likely to catch on fire than ICE....just harder to put out. Really? How many ICE spontaneous combust just sitting there in the parking garage? Here is an article based on NTSB data. https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/ All EV fires risk recalls were due to the battery. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:01:59 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's almost like EVs were rushed to the market without knowing all the pitfalls. EVs have been around for over 100 years. "rushed to market" is a bit of a streach. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:07:15 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t they keep a dump truck full of sand at the fire station, they get a call for an EV wreck, roll the dump truck with the rest of the responding vehicles. Dump sand on fire, extinguish/contain This, add a portable folding containment wall around the vehicle to aid in that situation. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:16:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: sand melts at 2500 degrees, lithium burns at 3500. so you just made molten sand... molten sand = glass ? ?? Some sort of smother device (think giant hemisphere that errects on both sides of fire then you push it together effectivly denying air to the whole shebang and keep it in place until temps drop(couple HOURS) woudl be my guess as to most viable but that would be logistically difficult Just because it is burning that hot for a moment, doesn't mean that the entire area of burning car is a concentrated 3500 degrees. It's not a matter of how hot the fire is burning, but whether it can heat the sand, in quantity, up to a dangerous temperature. You'd need the burning car in a giant smelter to get molten sand, even then, you'd still just smother it. Li batteries can be smothered with sand, it's already proven, it would work for bigger ones. You're still removing oxygen, and the sand itself would have a cooling effect. But whether that is practical for fighting car fires is the question. |
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Posted: 2/1/2023 5:19:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really? How many ICE spontaneous combust just sitting there in the parking garage? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: EV Thread Luckily EV's are less likely to catch on fire than ICE....just harder to put out. Really? How many ICE spontaneous combust just sitting there in the parking garage? My son had a 90s vintage Lexus that had a spontaneous fire sitting in the driveway. It had something to do with drizzle, chafed wiring and a leaky fuel filter/line so the firefighters said. |
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