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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:11:42 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, that eliminated a lot of the theories here. I think it will be them parsing the language of the law. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What we KNOW for fact so far: 1. It is not smoothbore (from several inquires to Franklin Armory) 2. The rifle pictured, from the receiver extension to the muzzle device, is identical to a product already sold and manufactured by Franklin Armory. 3. The buttstock is NOT pinned, judging from the different positions seen in different press release photos released by Franklin Armory. 4. Franklin Armory claims an 11.5" barrel, which likely elliminates all of the "the barrel actually extends into the upper receiver, making it a 16" barrel. 5. It is equipped with a binary trigger, which, judging from the press release photos, has traditional safe/fire/binary markings on the plate. 6. 90% of you will not bother reading this, and likely post something about the muzzle device looking odd, and being a bullet spinner. Or the stock looking longer than normal, and being the workaround. Or the stock being pinned, and therefore unmeasurable in its collapsed state. Or the 11.5" barrel actually being 16". Yes, I'm still stuck on my Lancaster oval bore theory... 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:16:21 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A machine gun is 1 bullet per trigger function. A rifle(or SBR) is 1 bullet per trigger pull. A firearm that fires one bullet per trigger function but 2 bullets per trigger pull, is neither a Machine gun or a Rfile(or SBR). The Binary Trigger is the Key Quote HistoryQuoted:
A machine gun is 1 bullet per trigger function. A rifle(or SBR) is 1 bullet per trigger pull. A firearm that fires one bullet per trigger function but 2 bullets per trigger pull, is neither a Machine gun or a Rfile(or SBR). The Binary Trigger is the Key Quoted:
How about one short per two functions of the trigger? Either with two trigger presses per shot OR a function of the trigger for each the pull and for the release. If one shot comes from it, then it's one shot per two functions of the trigger. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:21:20 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/1232/41952.GIF
Perhaps they found the loophole somewhere in here: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/1232/51715.GIF |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:28:10 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A machine gun is 1 bullet per trigger function. A rifle(or SBR) is 1 bullet per trigger pull. A firearm that fires one bullet per trigger function but 2 bullets per trigger pull, is neither a Machine gun or a Rfile(or SBR). The Binary Trigger is the Key The 3rd pull and release firing mode on the this gun makes it not a rifle because for each trigger pull in this mode there are 2 rounds fired, at least that's likely FA's argument, and it's not machine gun because it only fires one round per trigger function, this to legal foundation pull and release triggers are built on. Typically a shoulder stock is a defining feature of a shotgun or rifle, however both definitions in the NFA involve having a shoulder stock and 1 round per trigger pull, this is what allows the gun to have a shoulder stock and rifled barrel and not be classified as some sort of rifle, because by definition rifles only can fire one round per trigger pull. It does not need to be pull/release firing only it can be safe-semi-binary, for the same reason a select fire machine gun is still a machine gun even if it has a semi-auto only firing mode. The only further limitation is the OAL length requirement, same deal as the Shockwave shotguns, as an otherwise unclassified firearm it's still limited to a minimum OAL of 26" before it is deemed "concealable", unclassified firearms that are concealable are prime examples of AOW's. So if one of these had a OAL under 26" it would be an AOW despite having both a rifled barrel and shoulder stock, due to the trigger's binary mode not fitting the definition of a rifle or short barreled rifle. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:29:31 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did I make it in before the "I carry a determination letter ,that is addressed to someone else, around like it's a Form 1/4 crowd"? ETA: join date, post count. 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:29:50 AM EDT
[#6]
Fuck, I see they now have a BFS-3 that is better than the previous designs. I am glad I waited to buy a second, but now I will probably need at least three of these.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:31:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Sigh
Ok as the manufacturer, they start by building a pistol amd adf the short barrel. Then they add the trigger which makes it not a pistol any more and now a firearm. They then add a stock to increase the length over 26". Done. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:33:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If that's it, it's way gayer than a brace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Franklin does make a version of the BFS that is fire on release only: https://www.franklinarmory.com/blogs/news/45401281-franklin-armory-is-pleased-to-announce-the-limited-availability-of-the-release-firing-system-which-has-a-mode-that-fires-only-on-the-release-function-of-the-trigger-stroke That has to be what makes this a non-rifle because of the explicit usage of "pull" in the definition of a "rifle". |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:37:03 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just bubbling this up again. The 3rd pull and release firing mode on the this gun makes it not a rifle because for each trigger pull in this mode there are 2 rounds fired, at least that's likely FA's argument, and it's not machine gun because it only fires one round per trigger function, this to legal foundation pull and release triggers are built on. Typically a shoulder stock is a defining feature of a shotgun or rifle, however both definitions in the NFA involve having a shoulder stock and 1 round per trigger pull, this is what allows the gun to have a shoulder stock and rifled barrel and not be classified as some sort of rifle, because by definition rifles only can fire one round per trigger pull. It does not need to be pull/release firing only it can be safe-semi-binary, for the same reason a select fire machine gun is still a machine gun even if it has a semi-auto only firing mode. The only further limitation is the OAL length requirement, same deal as the Shockwave shotguns, as an otherwise unclassified firearm it's still limited to a minimum OAL of 26" before it is deemed "concealable", unclassified firearms that are concealable are prime examples of AOW's. So if one of these had a OAL under 26" it would be an AOW despite having both a rifled barrel and shoulder stock, due to the trigger's binary mode not fitting the definition of a rifle or short barreled rifle. I think that if there is any fire mode where a single round is fired on a pull of the trigger, it's going to be classified by BATFE as a rifle. If interpreting the firearm as a "rifle" would allow BATFE to regulate/restrict it, they're going to do it. Basically, your interpretation of the binary mode creates a circumstance where in one mode, it meets the definition of "rifle," while in another mode it does not. That's actually akin to the "machine gun" interpretation as applied to a select fire weapon. In one fire mode it meets the definition of "machine gun," in another mode it would not meet the definition of "machine gun." But because one of the two modes qualifies for a machine gun classification, it is always a machine gun. I suspect that would be the case with this weapon and the rifle definition. If there is a mode that would qualify the weapon as a "rifle," BATFE is going to classify it as a rifle because their only alternative is an unclassified "firearm." |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:41:12 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. More likely, this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A machine gun is 1 bullet per trigger function. A rifle(or SBR) is 1 bullet per trigger pull. A firearm that fires one bullet per trigger function but 2 bullets per trigger pull, is neither a Machine gun or a Rfile(or SBR). The Binary Trigger is the Key Quoted:
How about one short per two functions of the trigger? Either with two trigger presses per shot OR a function of the trigger for each the pull and for the release. If one shot comes from it, then it's one shot per two functions of the trigger. A double pull 3rd position would likely work to fit this loophole and may be what everyone else does to get around Franklin Arsenals binary trigger IP to exploit this. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:41:29 AM EDT
[#11]
If firing on release only changes the game, then how about a 3rd burst on releasing?
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:42:02 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sigh Ok as the manufacturer, they start by building a pistol amd adf the short barrel. Then they add the trigger which makes it not a pistol any more and now a firearm. They then add a stock to increase the length over 26". Done. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sigh Ok as the manufacturer, they start by building a pistol amd adf the short barrel. Then they add the trigger which makes it not a pistol any more and now a firearm. They then add a stock to increase the length over 26". Done. (c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:43:15 AM EDT
[#13]
I have a handguard that's almost the same, some oem has been making those forever
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:43:37 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What we KNOW for fact so far: 1. It is not smoothbore (from several inquires to Franklin Armory) 2. The rifle pictured, from the receiver extension to the muzzle device, is identical to a product already sold and manufactured by Franklin Armory. 3. The buttstock is NOT pinned, judging from the different positions seen in different press release photos released by Franklin Armory. 4. Franklin Armory claims an 11.5" barrel, which likely elliminates all of the "the barrel actually extends into the upper receiver, making it a 16" barrel. 5. It is equipped with a binary trigger, which, judging from the press release photos, has traditional safe/fire/binary markings on the plate. 6. 90% of you will not bother reading this, and likely post something about the muzzle device looking odd, and being a bullet spinner. Or the stock looking longer than normal, and being the workaround. Or the stock being pinned, and therefore unmeasurable in its collapsed state. Or the 11.5" barrel actually being 16". |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:47:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If firing on release only changes the game, then how about a 3rd burst on releasing? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:50:19 AM EDT
[#16]
Think Can Cannon...
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:50:47 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh, just different. Potentially you could get some really crazy accuracy out of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Franklin does make a version of the BFS that is fire on release only: https://www.franklinarmory.com/blogs/news/45401281-franklin-armory-is-pleased-to-announce-the-limited-availability-of-the-release-firing-system-which-has-a-mode-that-fires-only-on-the-release-function-of-the-trigger-stroke That has to be what makes this a non-rifle because of the explicit usage of "pull" in the definition of a "rifle". |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:52:49 AM EDT
[#18]
They are a trigger manufacturer not a barrel builder.
Its 100% the trigger due to ut being manufacturwr installed. That is the key. It never was made into a rifle or shotgun to begin with. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:54:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it is "redesigned" or "remade" into something that would be classified as a rifle, it doesn't matter what it started out as (this, of course, does not include machine guns which are always machine guns). So either the trigger is the determining factor (I don't think it will be), or it's something else like the type of bore that keeps this out of NFA-land. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:54:30 AM EDT
[#20]
JMHO but solution to a problem that no longer exist! Really don't see the need or reason for SBR with the huge variety of braces now available and ATF currently saying shouldering is OK.
 Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 11:57:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Think Can Cannon... |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:00:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its not redeaigned. It leaves the manufacturer as a firearm. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:02:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JMHO but solution to a problem that no longer exist! Really don't see the need or reason for SBR with the huge variety of braces now available and ATF currently saying shouldering is OK. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psa_family-418108.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psalower-418110.JPG The problem continues to exist until the law is revoked or the courts rule on it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:04:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JMHO but solution to a problem that no longer exist! Really don't see the need or reason for SBR with the huge variety of braces now available and ATF currently saying shouldering is OK. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psa_family-418108.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psalower-418110.JPG My guess is this new thing will be msrp'd between 1899.00 and 2499.00 |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:06:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If this isn’t what’s going on in this case... I really hope someone tries this cause it’s a damn good idea |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:07:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Didn't read the whole thread but couldn't it just be a shoulder stock that in its fully extended position bring the whole thing to over 26 inches?
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:08:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't read the whole thread but couldn't it just be a shoulder stock that in its fully extended position bring the whole thing to over 26 inches? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:11:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just bubbling this up again. The 3rd pull and release firing mode on the this gun makes it not a rifle because for each trigger pull in this mode there are 2 rounds fired, at least that's likely FA's argument, and it's not machine gun because it only fires one round per trigger function, this to legal foundation pull and release triggers are built on. Typically a shoulder stock is a defining feature of a shotgun or rifle, however both definitions in the NFA involve having a shoulder stock and 1 round per trigger pull, this is what allows the gun to have a shoulder stock and rifled barrel and not be classified as some sort of rifle, because by definition rifles only can fire one round per trigger pull. It does not need to be pull/release firing only it can be safe-semi-binary, for the same reason a select fire machine gun is still a machine gun even if it has a semi-auto only firing mode. The only further limitation is the OAL length requirement, same deal as the Shockwave shotguns, as an otherwise unclassified firearm it's still limited to a minimum OAL of 26" before it is deemed "concealable", unclassified firearms that are concealable are prime examples of AOW's. So if one of these had a OAL under 26" it would be an AOW despite having both a rifled barrel and shoulder stock, due to the trigger's binary mode not fitting the definition of a rifle or short barreled rifle. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:13:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hm. If that ain't it, that's a damn good idea worth trying. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
10.5 inch rifled barrel 5.5 inch permanently attached telescoping muzzle device = 16 inches in the extended configuration. If that ain't it, that's a damn good idea worth trying. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:13:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's either not designed to be fired from the shoulder or is not a rifle by some other definition. Per the ATF: The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single So they either got around the projectile, around the bore, around the fired from the shoulder, or the number of rounds fired per trigger pull. Since they make binary triggers.... ETA: disregard, already well-covered previously, RIF
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:13:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not with a barrel <16" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Didn't read the whole thread but couldn't it just be a shoulder stock that in its fully extended position bring the whole thing to over 26 inches? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:13:48 PM EDT
[#32]
According to the NFA an SBR is any firearm with a buttstock that has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position.
If this is the correct verbiage of the ATF, then the key word in all of that is "OR". The barrel is less than 16 inches, but the overall length when stock is fully extended is over 26 inches which would keep it from being an SBR. Right? Just speculating |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:15:23 PM EDT
[#33]
even if smooth bore it would still require a stamp i would think...if not then smooth bore sbs would require one either i would think.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:15:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An 870 barrel still has to be 18" from the muzzle to the bolt face, the part on the chamber end doesn't count towards the barrel length. Your idea would basically be the same thing. https://i.imgur.com/4rw7q8x.png Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Barrel has two flat pieces that extend from the back of the barrel into the receiver (flat sides) to give the barrel an overall length of 16" https://i.imgur.com/4rw7q8x.png
Silly brainstorming... |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:16:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, if I put a binary trigger in my Mossberg Shockwave shotgun, I can put a stock on it and chop the barrel down like another 6 inches??? |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:17:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The more weight on the scale opposite the NFA is a good thing. The problem continues to exist until the law is revoked or the courts rule on it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
JMHO but solution to a problem that no longer exist! Really don't see the need or reason for SBR with the huge variety of braces now available and ATF currently saying shouldering is OK. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psa_family-418108.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psalower-418110.JPG The problem continues to exist until the law is revoked or the courts rule on it. 
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:28:03 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to the NFA an SBR is any firearm with a buttstock that has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. If this is the correct verbiage of the ATF, then the key word in all of that is "OR". The barrel is less than 16 inches, but the overall length when stock is fully extended is over 26 inches which would keep it from being an SBR. Right? Just speculating Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to the NFA an SBR is any firearm with a buttstock that has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. If this is the correct verbiage of the ATF, then the key word in all of that is "OR". The barrel is less than 16 inches, but the overall length when stock is fully extended is over 26 inches which would keep it from being an SBR. Right? Just speculating Below is a direct quote from USC 921: (7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:29:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Not sure if it's been pointed out yet or not, but the below screenshot I took is the exact same picture they're using in the release as an NFA regulated SBR.
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:31:57 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if it's been pointed out yet or not, but the below screenshot I took is the exact same picture they're using in the release as an NFA regulated SBR. https://i.imgur.com/R5YXFUb.png |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:34:12 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/AA33AA38-9F3B-4FFD-A7E6-F897E831CEA4-417967.JPG the odd letter break distance between the A and the T is intentional <a href="https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html">https://trademarks.justia.com/872/17/reformation-87217402.html </a> https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/55887134-C5E2-4C5F-A8A5-4BDC08F8D1F5-417969.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/DBDD57C6-F273-47DF-A613-47BB459F78EA-417970.JPG |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:36:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which lends more credence to "fire on release" theory. That has the traditional BFS in it (safe/fire/binary) which makes it an SBR. The same gun with just safe/release would be the non-nfa version. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not sure if it's been pointed out yet or not, but the below screenshot I took is the exact same picture they're using in the release as an NFA regulated SBR. https://i.imgur.com/R5YXFUb.png |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:38:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if it's been pointed out yet or not, but the below screenshot I took is the exact same picture they're using in the release as an NFA regulated SBR. https://i.imgur.com/R5YXFUb.png |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:45:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to the NFA an SBR is any firearm with a buttstock that has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches. The total length is measured in the extended position. If this is the correct verbiage of the ATF, then the key word in all of that is "OR". The barrel is less than 16 inches, but the overall length when stock is fully extended is over 26 inches which would keep it from being an SBR. Right? Just speculating It's an sbr if one of those conditions are met. Once one condition is met, the second is moot. |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:50:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Polygonal broach. No actual rifling? Just a guess. Interesting! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Non-rifled barrel? Some new kinda tech in play? Therein lies your answer... |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:50:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JMHO but solution to a problem that no longer exist! Really don't see the need or reason for SBR with the huge variety of braces now available and ATF currently saying shouldering is OK. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psa_family-418108.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/318573/psalower-418110.JPG The back and forth is a problem. I think poking the bear is good though, because it highlights the silliness of the GCA and NFA, which could be used as fodder in the future to repeal them. Ingenuity at it's best! |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:51:26 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you're one of the paranoid fuckers that needs their own personal letter. Wow. ETA: join date, post count. https://i.imgur.com/QASOJat.gif Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Did I make it in before the "I carry a determination letter ,that is addressed to someone else, around like it's a Form 1/4 crowd"? ETA: join date, post count. https://i.imgur.com/QASOJat.gif "Determination letters; Cause guns can't wear Affliction shirts." @hasadogsqueezetoyasastock |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:54:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going with this. How exactly does the law define "rifling"? Therein lies your answer... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Non-rifled barrel? Some new kinda tech in play? Therein lies your answer... |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:55:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no odd letter break distance. The right lower side of the A matches up vertically with the left upper side of the T.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:56:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Personal letter? As in addressed to me? Why yes, yes I do. Little bit different than a determination letter, though. "Determination letters; Cause guns can't wear Affliction shirts." @hasadogsqueezetoyasastock |
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Posted: 1/12/2018 12:56:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this is well beyond a kerning pair distance https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/3E737CA7-AC62-4CD7-B6DD-8C9B49BBF867-418132.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: There is no odd letter break distance. The right lower side of the A matches up vertically with the left upper side of the T. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3097/3E737CA7-AC62-4CD7-B6DD-8C9B49BBF867-418132.JPG EDIT: I didn't know what kerning pair was I looked it up. Even wiki page shows that alignment is based vertically. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning |
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